evaned: ciberido: This is not the first thread in which ExperianScaresCthulhu has been derpy about rape.

I've been coming to Fark for about 9 1/2 years. (Actually longer, but I registered 9 1/2 years ago.) ExperianScaresCthulhu seriously just won the very impressive honor of, I think, being the first person I've ever put on my ignore list.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
not sure why he isnt on my ignore list
certainly a useless troll

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very r ...

If I had a daughter close to leaving home, I would make her read your post over and over until she could recite it from memory. After each recitation, I would ask her,,

"Can you see yourself doing that?"

"Yes," she would reply, being the child of an honest man.

"Is that the smart thing to do?" I would ask.

"No," she would reply, being the child of no dummy.

"What will you do?" I would ask, not even providing her a chance to say, "It wouldn't happen to me."

"Call you and the cops," she would reply, being the wisest and bravest child in the world.

Otherwise, I would lock her in the closet for another 18 years and then try again.

evaned: PRISON! Really?!

In the example you gave, and the one I was responding to, the person you mentioned was not convicted and the example you gave of his accusation being more life ruining than rape was that he was left with legal bills and difficulty finding employment.

The risk of ending up in prison for a crime you didn't commit is terrible- but it's also something that you're almost never going to see in the case of rape committed by an acquaintance. Believe it or not, it's actually really, really hard to get a lot of those cases through the court system.

It's something that's so statistically rare that making in the focus of the thread is totally disingenuous.

Genevieve Marie: ut do these inconveniences pale in comparison to what can happen when people report stalking and nothing is done to try and protect them? Absolutely. And yes, I would rather a hundred students have to deal with switching dorms and rearranging their schedules than see one student murdered. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree.

I would disagree. What the fark is a person considered that dangerous still being allowed in a university?


Just kidding, I can see where two people need to be kept apart, but each can be successful.

Thunderpipes: evaned: stiletto_the_wise: I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.

I only have a GED in law, but I think most of the time it isn't. But what it can do is prompt a more thorough investigation to check back over the old cases to see if anything is missed, think extra hard about if there's anything else that you can do.

Thunderpipes: She wanted the guy relocated and a type of restraining order on him. Don't prance around and pretend this has no impact on the guy because it is not in the court system.

I don't entirely agree with Genevieve, but I do think she has a point there. Those are non-criminal sanctions, they do have a different burden of proof, and what's more, that's rightfully so because the consequences are very different. Don't pretend like the university saying "you get that dorm over there" (heck, we didn't even really get absolute pick of what dorm we wanted) and perhaps some type of restraining order (I don't remember seeing that in the articles, but whatever) are similar to being thrown in jail.

The legal system is based around balancing acts between the rights of the accused and the rights of the accuser. When the consequences are substantially less severe for the accused, to shift the balance back the accuser gets a lower burden of proof.

But in this case, the guy is considered guilty by pretty much everyone around campus, and he will suffer real problems. It is her right to accuse him, but if she hurts him and he did nothing wrong, he needs to be able to sue her, and the University if it is involved.

You wanna know how I know you've never been to college?

Thunderpipes: Abacus9: Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?
not that often, but enough that people are against it.

And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws  that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Employer does a Google search.... Sorry Rapey McRapems, we aren't hiring. Does a background check.... Sorry Evil Guy, arrest in Chickville in 2006 for rape. We are not hiring. What, you could not afford a $100,000 legal bill to get things expunged?

Perhaps you missed the part in bold...

No, perhaps you can't read. Media attention has nothing to do with it. Arrest records are always available, and court documents are available, and even unintentional "media coverage" will be there, such as day in court notices. Regardless of how big a case it is, unless a person has tons of cash, getting an arrest of that nature expunged will be very tough.

Doesn't matter whether it's expunged. If he's exonerated, that will turn up too.

Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie:
Ah, the old classic of false equivalency. The "Can you prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt? No? Then be prepared to be prosecuted you lying slut" idea.

False rape accusations are relatively rare. They do not happen at nearly  the same scale as actual rape. This has been pretty well documented. And the idea that a victim should automatically go on trial for reporting a crime is malicious and farked up and not at all compatible with a fair criminal justice system.

If someone gets caught telling obvious falsehoods about someone else, they can be taken to civil court, and that's as it should be. But no, the idea that we should threaten anyone who reports a crime with prosecution if their story can't be proved is such bullshiat.
at no point in my statement did i suggest any such equivalency.
if that is how you deflect the question, by misstating or purposely changing the intention of the comment, there is no point in discussing it with you.

civil court? lol.
nice.
how about perjury?
i'm not talking about innocent case of mistaken identity, i am talking about harmful prosecution

There is no "harmful prosecution" statute, or every victim would be guilty.  There are "malicious prosecution" statutes, but you have to prove charges were false and brought with malice.

liquidsiphon: Fano: liquidsiphon: Fano: Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: When the Duke Lacrosse team is let out of prison?

The Duke Lacrosse team was exonerated, very publicly, and was not sent to prison.

It was also one case. Does it not strike you as odd that it's the only false accuser story people ever bring up?

Not really, because it was a huge, fairly recent case. Also, it took a long time for it to be accepted as a false accuser case. Did Nancy Grace eat a bullet for the time she continued to accuse the students even after it became clear that they did not rape the stripper?
Also, you are leaving out the bigger case of say, Tawana Brawley. I do not condone rape, but I also do not condone fake rape allegations. Oh no, that's two high profile cases. I'm sure there are no others.

Fake rape accusations may exist and nobody can determine the absolute number of how many occur, but last I saw one of the most under-reported criminal acts is rape.

Well, the solution for that isn't overconviction, just to make sure you aren't letting any of those under-reported jokers get away with something. I'm sure that's not what you were implying with your post. Let's increase the reports of rape. I'm for that.

I agree with not overconvicting people, but I hardly believe that is the case. The problem is how emotionally devastating reporting a rape can be and that once you do report it, it can get get beat down by people who are protecting their own behind to keep it from getting it out.

Sounds like how Electronic Arts has been raping me for years

Thunderpipes: Fluorescent Testicle: Fun fact: Thunderpipes (well, the character he plays, anyway) is a birther.

That is just being plain stupid. I get it, I am a conservative and hated here.

But just once, I would love an actual logical argument from you guys. You are the real trolls, not I.

Right, it's everybody else who is trolling. Not you. Honestly, I've never seen one rational or reasonable argument from you, and just about every post I've seen from you has been overwhelmingly hostile. You're either a terrible and obvious troll, or a complete idiot. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with troll.

Abacus9: You wanna know how I know you've never been to college?

Wanna know how I know YOU'VE never been to college?

evaned: Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.

A lot of people in this thread are talking about how hard it is to prove a rape. Now you're talking about how hard it is for someone convicted of rape. There can be false accusations, but an accusation is not a conviction. And on a college campus, if you're talking reputation, it's probably worse for the rape victim than the rapist.

evaned: I understand that you probably were using hyperbole and, if asked, would acknowledge the problem of prison sentences. At the same time, I bet you'd have jumped on someone who appeared to be semi-sincerely trying to downplay how bad of a crime rape is.

Yes, but do you not get why it gets INCREDIBLY frustrating to have the "Well men can face false accusations of rape, and that's horrible and wrong" discussion in every single thread about rape, like that's relevant to the topic at hand and a totally logical thing to bring up in discussion? It almost without fail gets brought up as the corollary to stories about women being raped. "Oh yes, but men can be ACCUSED of rape, so that's something that we need to take into consideration in this story."

It is always a derailing tactic. It always implies that the woman in question is lying. And it happens no matter who the victim is, who the perpetrator is or what the facts of the article are and it happens on stories where the accused has not even been charged with a crime. Where all the victim is doing is speaking about their experience.

So yes, forgive me for not taking the conversational thread about how terrible false accusations can be seriously, but I'm done allowing that to become the focus of a thread about rape. Next time a story from the innocence project crops up about a wrongful conviction, I will be all over that too, and I'll be more than happy to criticize the justice system and how the case was handled and I'll be completely on the side of the man whose rights were trampled on- I always am. (And generally, the man in question is a low income black man. Not a middle class university student.) That discussion will be totally relevant in that thread and I'll be happy to have it.

But in this one? A story about the systemic cover up by a university of the reported rapes of 65 students? Any "But what about the men" discussion in this thread is bullshiat and should be recognized as such.

doglover: Abacus9: You wanna know how I know you've never been to college?

Wanna know how I know YOU'VE never been to college?

Except my degree and job description show otherwise.

orbister: Oh no. They actually asked her questions, and didn't take everything she said at face value before taking action

You don't know a whole hell of a lot about how intimate partner violence works do you?

Pro tip: very few women leave at the very first sign of violence. That in no way implies that violence did not occur. This was a shiatty, victim blaming question asked by another college age girl who hasn't had time to gather a whole lot of perspective on stuff like this.

The questions were inappropriate. Asking her to tell her story in full was acceptable. Asking for clarification on details was acceptable. Implying that because she didn't leave right away, then her story is probably false?

Not ok. Not even in the slightest. Not even a little bit. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

OgreMagi: As for the university's stance. The girl is going around saying someone raped her. There is no police report, there is no case, there are no charges. I think the university is right in their stance so long as the girl is not following through the proper legal process and getting charges filed. However, if the girl does get charges filed and the university does not give her the proper support, then her claims against the university would be true.

How do you make Vitamin D with all that ivy covering the tower from which you have never emerged?

She went through a process urged upon her by the school.  It took months, during which time any evidence of a rape would vanish.  She has no criminal case of rape now; that doesn't mean rape didn't happen.  One of her complaints against the university is that it deliberately forestalled her from going to the cops immediately, thereby depriving her of due process and equal protection under law.

She's a sophomore now; may have been a freshman when this all went down.  So we're talking about an 18-19 year old girl who is no match for a silver-tongued administration with, allegedly, lots of practice at discouraging women from reporting rape until it's too late.

orbister: Theaetetus: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?
Voiceofreason01: All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it.

Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

What standard of proof, if any, do you think a university should require before expelling someone as a rapist?

A credible accusation with details? Possible backup witnesses? A gut feeling from the administration that the story checks out? I'm not sure that one can set an across the board standard of proof here. That's something that very much needs to be decided on a case by case basis.

 Once again: no one has an inalienable right to attend the university of their choosing. The standard of proof is much, much lower for expulsion than it is for a criminal conviction, and that is as it should be.

Thunderpipes: Not one single person I have ever heard of doesn't think rape is a big deal.

ciberido: Abacus9: thorthor: ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

How very white of you.

Wtf is that supposed to mean exactly?

I think he's trying to condone rape and be racist at the same time.

It's hard to tell.  I think ExperianScaresCthulhu cranks it up to 11 in rape threads.  And there's always Poe's Law to consider, as well.

I know this is Fark and all, but it's surreal to think that the anti-rape stance is in any way controversial. Like really, do we have to argue about THIS?

orbister: Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.

That's trite nonsense. No man can possibly reach adulthood without knowing that rape is wrong and that society properly detests rapists. The idea that "we do not tell our men not to rape" is as daft as "we do not tell our men not to murder". When, at school, did you ever have a class specifically telling you not to murder people?

Everyone knows that jumping out from behind a bush with a gun and raping someone is wrong- and very easily identified as criminal. That's actually why that kind of rape is the rarest kind.

Other kinds though? Believe it or not, a lot of young men are not taught healthy attitudes about sexual consent.

Abacus9: Regardless of how big a case it is, unless a person has tons of cash, getting an arrest of that nature expunged will be very tough.

Doesn't matter whether it's expunged. If he's exonerated, that will turn up too.

There is no such thing as "expungement" anymore.  Arrest and court records are sold to data brokers monthly and rarely updated, despite laws requiring it.  Your records may be gone from the court house but they're in hundreds of background checkers' servers, forever, and mugshots... well, we know about mugshots.

Save your money when it comes to "expungement."

evaned: Abacus9: A lot of people in this thread are talking about how hard it is to prove a rape. Now you're talking about how hard it is for someone convicted of rape.

I follow whatever thread of conversation stands out at me. One of those was talking about one reason rape cases tend to be a bit divisive (because it's hard to prove or disprove). Another was Genevieve's statement that someone who suffers an accusation merely has people "think he's a bad person".

There can be false accusations, but an accusation is not a conviction. And on a college campus, if you're talking reputation, it's probably worse for the rape victim than the rapist.

And I separated out the cases of an accusation (well, more aimed at the situation where the accuser goes to the police and gets the legal ball moving) and conviction in my post. :-)

As for the second half of your statement, I wonder how much it's true. It may be that I tend to be relatively introverted and so don't meet all that many people, and then I hang out with good folks, but in my experience it wouldn't be. I had a friend who... well, I don't know that she was raped exactly, but I think she had some sort of long-term sexual assault problem (I don't know details), and it never even occurred to me at the time to think less of her for it, and I doubt any of my friends would have either. But then again, maybe I was just oblivious, because that is totally likely. :-)

From my experience, college is completely different from real life when it comes to rape. Victims are seen as sluts and losers that had it coming because they were drunk and hanging out with men. The date rapist was generally seen as a sort of hero because he "scored". I'm not talking about losers that couldn't score in an honest way here, I'm talking about number of "conquests". I don't mean to insinuate that I condoned this attitude or was in any way friends with these guys, just saying that was the atmosphere in general.

BarkingUnicorn: Abacus9: Regardless of how big a case it is, unless a person has tons of cash, getting an arrest of that nature expunged will be very tough.

Doesn't matter whether it's expunged. If he's exonerated, that will turn up too.

There is no such thing as "expungement" anymore.  Arrest and court records are sold to data brokers monthly and rarely updated, despite laws requiring it.  Your records may be gone from the court house but they're in hundreds of background checkers' servers, forever, and mugshots... well, we know about mugshots.

Save your money when it comes to "expungement."

That's more or less what I was saying (or trying to).

Abacus9: From my experience, college is completely different from real life when it comes to rape.

Who the hell did you hang out with? The Crips?

doglover: Abacus9: From my experience, college is completely different from real life when it comes to rape.

Who the hell did you hang out with? The Crips?

Nope, his experience is actually much more in line with what most people experience. The exception might be if the woman is conventionally attractive and universally liked. But most women? Are going to get treated like drunken sluts who probably don't  remember saying yes. You've never heard a young woman called a sorostitute if she's a sorority girl and hangs out with that crowd? You've never heard a more alternative girl get called a crazy biatch/sluts? Ever stopped and considered their perspective on those labels?

orbister: Theaetetus: Thunderpipes: So, the guy was charged with a crime?
Voiceofreason01: All we have is her word about what's going on. If we look at the evidence so far the boyfriend might have a good libel case against her and the university  If she was raped she needs to file a police report and let them handle it.

Glad to know you guys have your talking points straight. It makes it easier to identify you.

What standard of proof, if any, do you think a university should require before expelling someone as a rapist?

"Clear and convincing proof" standard.  It requires a substantially higher probability that an accusation is true than that it is not, and the trier of fact must be firmly convinced of the evidence's factuality.

Preponderance of evidence:  "It is more likely than not, in the judgment of a reasonable person of ordinary intelligence."  A bit low when a person's college and work career hangs in the balance.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" is applicable only when one faces criminal charges that can result in incarceration.