ExperianScaresCthulhu: ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred).  There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it.  Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument.  I always enjoy the classics.

False accusations are a bigger problem than rape

And... you're a bigger troll than Thunderpipes.

The taint is a deeper stain.

bwahaha

gilgigamesh: yeah, I figured something like this was the real "honor code violation" before I even clicked. She's being punished for making the school look bad. Keeping the epidemic of campus rape hush-hush is the only priority, and the result is: surprise! More rape.

I get that rape is bad. WHY is rape handled by the university and not the local police?
Is this one of those "the local cops would be worse than campus cops" things?
Do schools report their reported rape numbers along with other stats when advertising their schools?
Do women look at those numbers and pick low rape schools??

/WTF IS WRONG with this nation????

Abacus9: False accusations are a bigger problem than rape

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

thorthor: ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.

How very white of you.

Wtf is that supposed to mean exactly?

I think he's trying to condone rape and be racist at the same time.

stiletto_the_wise: Abacus9: What part of non-consensual ("you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested") don't you understand?!!

It's not provable without simply taking one person's word over the other.

How is it not provable? Rape kits, polygraphs, etc. Or are you just saying we should always overlook rape because "it can't be proven"?

Thunderpipes: What if the facts come out, the chick is insane crazy

You mean what if the facts come out and she's crazy, and so other the other 64 rape survivors participating in the complaint against the university, and so is the former assistant dean who resigned because of the way the university was choosing to handle the case?

That seems likely.

Thunderpipes: So you have no problem with a guy spending 20 years in prison and later being cleared? No big deal, right?

You're conflating accusations of rape with convictions for rape, which is particularly stupid when the victim in question has not sought criminal charges against the abuser.

You're also mixing up the details of a few different cases.

Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

Genevieve Marie: And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws  that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Are we FINALLY starting to collect some data so that we can answer these questions?
I know that some jurisdictions do a better job of investing all rape claims, even the ones where the claim is withdrawn.
You would think by now that we would be doing a TINY bit better on this problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape

Rumney notes that some officers seem to "have fixed views and expectations about how genuine rape victims should react to their victimization." He adds that "qualitative research also suggests that some officers continue to exhibit an unjustified scepticism of rape complainants, while others interpret such things as lack of evidence or complaint withdrawal as 'proof' of a false allegation."
FFS

Stewart, in one instance, considered a case disproved, stating that "it was totally impossible to have removed her extremely tight undergarments from her extremely large body against her will"
WTF?!!!

pudding7: BarkingUnicorn: China White Tea: HoratioGates: IgG4: Are you drunk? Look if you get raped you go to the  cops and press charges then you let the DA take it from there. You don't file a complaint with the US Dept of Ed Office of Civil Rights. When you do that you look like an activist with an axe to grind, which in this case I think she probably is. How that makes me a psychopath I have no idea.

That's not how campus law works.  There is a 'legal' system in place and most campus issues are resolved there.  It's like binding arbitration, only with more rape.

Is this actually the case?  Sure, they have their "Honor Court", but I'm pretty sure they can't actually deny anyone who has the good sense to blow off some shiatheels looking for resume fluff and bring in the professionals.

Most universities have their own campus cops.  They're the first cops that a victim will turn to because a) they're handy and b) the victim knows and trusts them.  Their main job is to  steer victims into the campus "justice" system.  Universities hammer into students' heads that these "resources" are all students need.

I guarantee you these women had conversations something like this:

"Hello, campus cop!  I want to report a rape."

"Well, honey, I'm here for you... go ahead."

"No, I wanna report it to the city police!"

"You don't want to do that.  Them rape exams suck.  It will take months. Defense attorney will drag you through the mud.  We can handle this faster and make it much easier on you. We don't even have to tell your parents!"

In that scenario, what does "we can handle this" mean to both parties?  What does "justice" look like to the victim in this hypothetical where the real cops aren't involved?

The worst student court can do is recommend expulsion.  Short of that, it could put the offender on probation, issue a reprimand, levy a small fine, or some other silly shiat.  This girl may have concluded that she could get him out of her life through the "kinder, gentler" student court without giving him a criminal record.

And she probably had a lot of "help" coming to that conclusion from the school.  I find it significant that the assistant dean of students in charge of sexual assault matters is on this girl's side in the Dept. of Ed. complaint, after recently leaving her job due to disagreement about how it should be done.

evaned: Genevieve Marie: I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Oh that's too much of flamebait for me to not respond to. Do you really think that's all that it is? No acknowledgement that even a failed false accusation could lead to tens of thousands of dollars in legal bills and significant problems getting a job for years? (I had a friend who faced the latter issue after not being convicted of anything.) That a successful one will lead a decade or two of prison, during which with a depressingly high probability (and a depressingly low amount of care from most people) the accused will face the very crime he was convicted of?

I don't want to minimize the crime of rape; it's traumatic mentally and often physically. But, at the same time, there are lots of women out there who, 5 or 10 years after a rape, are leading happy, productive, healthy lives; who are starting families and working on their careers. How many people convicted of rape can you say that about?

I don't want to comment about what the overall balance society-wide should be between the accuser and accused, or whether rape or false accusations are worse at that level. But you being dismissive of the damage caused by a false accusation is no less ridiculous than a lot of the stuff you are replying to.

Well, in this particular case, no legal charges were filed and the young man in question has not had to hire any lawyers or face arrest, trial or anything of the sort. And the original comment I was responding to was related to this case.

But honestly? I still don't see how legal bills and difficulty finding employment even begin to compare in awfulness to having your body forcibly sexually violated. Don't get me wrong, still terrible. Still not more terrible than rape, not even by a long shot.

Worst case scenario, you're filing bankruptcy and moving away. Sucks. Not life ending.

Genevieve Marie: Abacus9: False accusations are a bigger problem than rape

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Just so you know, that's not me you were quoting, I was quoting someone else and you quoted my quote (yo dog...).

ciberido: HalfPiper: [24.media.tumblr.com image 500x282]

I was the president of the student justice committee when I was in college, so I'm really getting a kick, yada yada.

On the Interwebs, nobody can tell you're a kangaroo... unless you tell them.

Abacus9: Genevieve Marie: Abacus9: False accusations are a bigger problem than rape

I don't even argue with that one anymore, it's too obnoxiously disheartening to fight with someone who thinks that forcible sexual violation of a woman's body is just not that big a deal compared to the horror that some people might think a man is a bad person if he's not.

Just so you know, that's not me you were quoting, I was quoting someone else and you quoted my quote (yo dog...).

Oh I know. I was agreeing with you. It just didn't quote the whole exchange.

Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?
not that often, but enough that people are against it.

And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws  that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.

Employer does a Google search.... Sorry Rapey McRapems, we aren't hiring. Does a background check.... Sorry Evil Guy, arrest in Chickville in 2006 for rape. We are not hiring. What, you could not afford a $100,000 legal bill to get things expunged?

Perhaps you missed the part in bold...

BarkingUnicorn: And she probably had a lot of "help" coming to that conclusion from the school.  I find it significant that the assistant dean of students in charge of sexual assault matters is on this girl's side in the Dept. of Ed. complaint, after recently leaving her job due to disagreement about how it should be done.

FFS
Why isnt the NUMBER 1 issue reporting the crime to the police and DA and assisting with the investigation of the crime?
Why isnt the NUMBER 2 issue collecting data and making it public so prospective students can properly assess the risk of one university vs another.
(this school has 2.9 reported rapes per 1000 students, this school has 0.1 per 1000, etc.)
(of course, this might cause more cover ups instead of factual reporting)
(of course, schools found guilty of lying and covering up rapes could lose all federal funding, which would solve everything)
(of course, tons of people would have all kinds of problems with this)
(where did the slashes go??)

Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Also, this is a story of exactly what can happen when universities fail to take allegations of stalking and harassment seriously: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Yeardley_Love

That sucks, and yes, that should be taken seriously. A chick just shot a dude, stabbed him 27 times, and slit his throat. She had all kinds of weird emails and text messages. Does that mean all women are suspect?

I could link a bunch of stories about guys in prison for years because of false accusations of rape. Would you agree false accusations need to be taken seriously and the rights of men protected as well?

Sounds like to me, correct me if I am wrong, you think any woman, without evidence, should be able to have physical conditions and other punishments inflicted on a man and the man should have no right to a trial, because men are evil and dangerous. If anyone disagrees, then the DOJ should step in and crush them.

Yea, I'm done responding to you after this because I think I'd rather watch Jennifer Lawrence interviews on YouTube and chat with people whose worldview doesn't suck. But I'll answer your questions here.

No, not all women should be suspect because of the crimes of one woman. Nor should all men be suspect because of the crimes of one man. However? If someone reports stalking and harassment from a former boyfriend to a university authority (or if it happens in reverse, which is rare but has happened) the university has an obligation to try and keep the student safe. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have to change dorms? Sure, and I'm sorry if that happens to an innocent person. Is it inconvenient for the young man to have his class schedule arranged to keep him away from the woman who has accused him of stalking? Sure, and once again, if that happens to an innocent guy that sucks and I sympathize.

But do these inconveniences pale in comparison to what can happen when people report stalking and nothing is done to try and protect them? Absolutely. And yes, I would rather a hundred students have to deal with switching dorms and rearranging their schedules than see one student murdered. I don't think any reasonable person would disagree.

And as I've said before- filing false charges IS NOT THE SAME THING as "false accusations". I think perjury should be prosecuted, absolutely. I don't think a woman writing a blog post, or telling her friends or her peers that she was raped violates anyone else's civil rights. Once more with feeling: no one has an inalienable right to a good reputation.

Now- that's a terrible, hideously immoral thing to do to someone if the accusation is false. BUT ONCE MORE WITH FEELING: that is relatively rare. Believe it or not, most women don't like to be called psycho biatch liars out to smear a good man's name for shiats and giggles- and that's what most rape victims go through, even when the accusations are true, which they are most of the time.

And the DOJ? Is not going to step in and crush this young man. He is actually totally immaterial to this case. This case is about how the university handled sexual assault claims in this case and in the case of 64 other victims who all have support of a former assistant dean who resigned because of the way these people were treated.

This is really not that hard. Seriously.