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(Huffington Post)   Student charged with an honor code violation for "intimidating" her rapist by speaking publicly   (huffingtonpost.com) divider line 1269
    More: Sick, Chapel Hill, honor code, sex crimes, Office of Civil Rights, Amherst College, art fair, U.S. Department of Education, graduate students  
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28391 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:17 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-26 01:12:05 AM

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.


If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.
 
2013-02-26 01:12:36 AM

BSABSVR: JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.

True story: My senior year of high school, a buddy of mine who was meek and had the utmost credibility was accused of rape by a female friend of his.  We were all up in arms about it.  She had a boyfriend who was in boot camp, and he told us (and we all figured he was right) that they had gotten drunk and boned and she was looking to justify it.  Our friend was a total gentleman, and not a farking rapist.

Then a couple of years later, a female friend of both of ours woke up after a night of partying to see him sitting on her bed fingering her.  But she made the excuse that maybe she led him on, and she was drunk enough that maybe she even told him he could, and he stopped and he's a nice guy so everyone drop it.

Then a couple years later, another female friend awoke to him trying to take her pants off.  Luckily, she was sober and knew that she hadn't been hitting on him, because she had just told him the day before that she had a boyfriend and he needed to stop asking her out on a date.

I'm now 100% convinced that me and my friends were wrong about what happened that day in high school.  But yeah, at the time he sure seemed credible.


That's actually a pretty common occurrence. That's why it's pretty generally understood that one of the reasons the rape rate is so high is because the same rapist generally commits multiple rapes. Often, that's what it also takes for a conviction- multiple cases that establish a pattern against someone.

People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.
 
2013-02-26 01:12:46 AM
Oops, I meant "indistinguishable". Damn English language
 
2013-02-26 01:12:52 AM

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very r ...


now, just to play devil's advocate, and you're so opinionated on the subject...
what should happen when somebody falsely accuses somebody of rape?
because right now, nothing seems to happen to these lying biatches that can ruin somebody's life for the hell of it, or because they are jealous, or were not supposed to be out...or whatever their goddamned excuse it for lying.
let's start with punishing liars and then we don't have to listen to stupid cops being skeptical...they don't want to ruin somebody's life knowing the accuser has nothing to risk if they are lying.
 
2013-02-26 01:13:14 AM

stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


are you shiatting me
 
2013-02-26 01:13:15 AM

BSABSVR: JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.

True story: My senior year of high school, a buddy of mine who was meek and had the utmost credibility was accused of rape by a female friend of his.  We were all up in arms about it.  She had a boyfriend who was in boot camp, and he told us (and we all figured he was right) that they had gotten drunk and boned and she was looking to justify it.  Our friend was a total gentleman, and not a farking rapist.

Then a couple of years later, a female friend of both of ours woke up after a night of partying to see him sitting on her bed fingering her.  But she made the excuse that maybe she led him on, and she was drunk enough that maybe she even told him he could, and he stopped and he's a nice guy so everyone drop it.

Then a couple years later, another female friend awoke to him trying to take her pants off.  Luckily, she was sober and knew that she hadn't been hitting on him, because she had just told him the day before that she had a boyfriend and he needed to stop asking her out on a date.

I'm now 100% convinced that me and my friends were wrong about what happened that day in high school.  But yeah, at the time he sure seemed credible.


Senior year of high school, lot of underaged drinking, dude is accused of rape, and biatches within the circle of friends still choose to get drunk in his presence? Years after the fact?

That's not even getting into the roll eyes of some chick getting drunk with this dude and claiming scout's honor that she'd never ever lead someone on while she was drunk (rollies rollies rollies) because she has a boyfriend (rollies infinity) -- that's some textbook 'I regret that I placed myself in this situation so I will absolve myself of any involvement of putting myself in this situation' crap.

Dude's an idiot for continuing to get drunk with hoes, but the entire group sounds like there isn't a bright bulb among the lot of them.
 
2013-02-26 01:13:28 AM

stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


You think someone who is drunk or drugged being coerced into sex by someone they've told no isn't rape?
 
2013-02-26 01:13:55 AM

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: Rape is bad. Dude does it, he needs his ass kicked hard and thrown in jail. Everyone should agree on that. But there needs to be heavy laws in place to protect guys too. The Duke case was a spectacular example of how lopsided the justice system is against men.

You're probably not even worth responding to, but disgusting and obnoxious misogyny aside, do you not realize how insanely stupid it is to use a case that got thrown out and where the prosecutor was disbarred and all the men were exonerated as an example of how unfair the justice system is to men?

Absolutely. You think this had no effect on the Duke players? Their lives were permanently screwed up. The entire nation wanted their heads on a plate because of the BS. kids arrested, death threats, whole locrosse team shut down, I mean, you think that is all okay? One made up story crushed a whole bunch of people. Even the coach was forced to resign. If that is not a perfect case to use, what it?

Misogyny? Really? Make you feel smart, Cupcake?

Their lives were permanently ruined? Yea, about that, buttercup.... http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/news/story?id=4980370


So he had to switch colleges after being dragged through the mud, nationally. Ya, that is awesome. Grow up.
 
2013-02-26 01:14:28 AM

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very r ...



Help to do what? Counseling? Sure. Take a semester off? OK. Declare someone guilty of a felony without a trial in a real court where he has legal counsel and due process? No. Have him kicked out of school based on that declaration? No, again.

UNC has decided not to allow sexual assault claims to go before the honor court anymore. That's a good decision regardless of whether they got things right in this case or not.
 
2013-02-26 01:14:30 AM

ciberido: Cataholic: There are likely scores of men sitting in prison who were falsely convicted of rape (not because they are the wrong man, but because no rape occurred).  There are also thousands of women who have been raped and for which no person has been convicted of doing it.  Why does anyone feel the need to pick one side over the other instead of supporting a system that would reduce both?

Ah, the good old "false accusations of rape are just as big a problem as rape itself" argument.  I always enjoy the classics.


False accusations are a bigger problem than rape, because there really is no recovery for the falsely accused.  There is no support network.  The taint is a deeper stain.
 
2013-02-26 01:15:53 AM

doglover: mesmer242: From what I can tell from the description of the "honor court", they got rid of the idea of lawyers and police officers, and made a bunch of college students both the judge and jury.

[i2.kym-cdn.com image 146x227]
Seriously!?


It started out innocently enough.   At first student courts handled only real "honor code" matters:  cheating on tests, streaking, puking in the communal showers, noise violations, and other college idiocies that real courts shouldn't be bothered with. Then they became tools of the schools for covering up real crimes.

"You student justices have done so well!  We think you're ready for more responsibilities."

The students ate it up, of course.
 
2013-02-26 01:16:10 AM

thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.


c.suite101.com

How very white of you.
 
2013-02-26 01:16:27 AM

evaned: She brought it to the Honor Court less as "punish him!" and more as "please take reasonable measures to keep him away from me." However, he dropped out during the proceedings, the University allegedly said that they would notify her if he reenrolled and try to put him in a dorm far away. But surprise, he reenrolled and they put him across the street. [These are true.]


Let me just clarify: I kind of said this in my previous post, but I think I said it badly. The first sentence of this paragraph is what is speculation. The dropout/reenroll/neighbor thing, that's true.
 
2013-02-26 01:16:27 AM

Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools ...


Ah, the old classic of false equivalency. The "Can you prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt? No? Then be prepared to be prosecuted you lying slut" idea.

False rape accusations are relatively rare. They do not happen at nearly  the same scale as actual rape. This has been pretty well documented. And the idea that a victim should automatically go on trial for reporting a crime is malicious and farked up and not at all compatible with a fair criminal justice system.

If someone gets caught telling obvious falsehoods about someone else, they can be taken to civil court, and that's as it should be. But no, the idea that we should threaten anyone who reports a crime with prosecution if their story can't be proved is such bullshiat.
 
2013-02-26 01:18:36 AM

bigwf2007: Help to do what? Counseling? Sure. Take a semester off? OK. Declare someone guilty of a felony without a trial in a real court where he has legal counsel and due process? No. Have him kicked out of school based on that declaration? No, again.


In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

And yes, some counseling and some flexible academic arrangements would probably help.
 
2013-02-26 01:18:47 AM

Genevieve Marie: stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

You think someone who is drunk or drugged being coerced into sex by someone they've told no isn't rape?


I didn't say that. What I said was that it's virtually un-provable and WHEN EXAMINED by a third party, indistinguishable from consensual sex. How do you prove it without having to take one side's word for it?

Another exercise: What if both woke up hung over, both believing they did not consent to the other side's advances? Did they rape each other?
 
2013-02-26 01:19:18 AM

doglover: cowgirl toffee: doglover: cowgirl toffee: doglover: cowgirl toffee: Can we also say "potential rape-ie" when we refer to her?

Canola?

Yes. But, you can also use baby oil and a tarp. (?)
;)

No, only Canola is made out of 100% Canadian rape.

Hummmm....
Regardless, you should still try the baby oil and the tarp. Seriously. :D


Do ya'll remember Planescape: Tourment? The one item you couldn't buy from the curio shoppe was "Pure Baby Oil, pressed from 1000 babies"

Considering what you COULD buy in that game, it's odd you couldn't buy the oil, really.


thefilmexperience.net
Approves.
 
2013-02-26 01:24:31 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: stiletto_the_wise: If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.

You think someone who is drunk or drugged being coerced into sex by someone they've told no isn't rape?

I didn't say that. What I said was that it's virtually un-provable and WHEN EXAMINED by a third party, indistinguishable from consensual sex. How do you prove it without having to take one side's word for it?

Another exercise: What if both woke up hung over, both believing they did not consent to the other side's advances? Did they rape each other?


That's why you don't throw one party in jail and totally deprive them of their civil rights. That's actually exactly why a university has the opportunity to do a positive thing here, by mediating in the situation and providing help for the student who reports the rape and to a lesser degree, the other involved party. Counseling services. Dorm shifts. Separate class schedules. The kind of stuff that's within their purview.

And yes, it would probably help if they kept internal files and tracked those cases, so if the same rapist's name keeps coming up again and again in these types of cases, they know that moving forward with expulsion or turning him over to law enforcement is probably a good idea.
 
2013-02-26 01:24:57 AM

Genevieve Marie: bigwf2007: Help to do what? Counseling? Sure. Take a semester off? OK. Declare someone guilty of a felony without a trial in a real court where he has legal counsel and due process? No. Have him kicked out of school based on that declaration? No, again.

In this case, all the victim wanted was him moved to a different part of campus and some protection from the school that kept him isolated from her as much as reasonably possible.

And yes, some counseling and some flexible academic arrangements would probably help.


Then she should go to the police. She only wanted him moved? On what basis? Her word? That is the problem. You just assume he is a bad man because depressed chick says so. What do you think happens to a guy at college that is punished for rape, without actually being so much as investigated by police? The chick should move, and stay away from him. Go to the police or shut the hell up. Problem is, as soon as she opens her mouth, truth or lie, it does not matter. The guy is guilty in the eyes of almost everyone, and that is simply not fair.

He should sue her for all she is worth.
 
2013-02-26 01:25:19 AM
Genevieve Marie:
Ah, the old classic of false equivalency. The "Can you prove this beyond a shadow of a doubt? No? Then be prepared to be prosecuted you lying slut" idea.

False rape accusations are relatively rare. They do not happen at nearly  the same scale as actual rape. This has been pretty well documented. And the idea that a victim should automatically go on trial for reporting a crime is malicious and farked up and not at all compatible with a fair criminal justice system.

If someone gets caught telling obvious falsehoods about someone else, they can be taken to civil court, and that's as it should be. But no, the idea that we should threaten anyone who reports a crime with prosecution if their story can't be proved is such bullshiat.

at no point in my statement did i suggest any such equivalency.
if that is how you deflect the question, by misstating or purposely changing the intention of the comment, there is no point in discussing it with you.

civil court? lol.
nice.
how about perjury?
i'm not talking about innocent case of mistaken identity, i am talking about harmful prosecution
 
2013-02-26 01:26:04 AM

Popular Opinion: how about perjury?


If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?
 
2013-02-26 01:26:17 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: now she gets to defame this dude forever.


Once again I point out that this lawsuit has absolutely nothing to do with her rapist. It is based on how the school responded when she went to them seeking help. She found other "victims" who say that the school also failed to deal with them appropriately.

Also, unless you know who "this dude" is, your claim that she is defaming "him" has no merit.
 
2013-02-26 01:26:58 AM
Wow, it took this long for this?

www.filehurricane.com
 
2013-02-26 01:27:08 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: biatches


It takes a lot of work to intentionally miss the point that intentionally and completely.  Have yourself a Mountain Dew.


Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.


Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me.  It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.
 
2013-02-26 01:27:45 AM

Big Dave: In this country we talk about how women can avoid rape, or what she should do about a pregnancy that results from rape, but we do not tell our men not to rape.


Bullshiat.  Do you honestly think all the laws against rape are "not telling men not to rape"?
 
2013-02-26 01:27:49 AM

ExperianScaresCthulhu: thorthor: Ok haven't read every comment because the trolling of this subject makes me ill. Some things just aren't funny. My personal feeling is that rape, especially violent rape, Proven in a court of law should be eligible for the death penalty where it applies.



How very white of you.


Wtf is that supposed to mean exactly?
 
2013-02-26 01:28:01 AM

meat0918: Condom wrapped banana


I swear, I remember in college some damnfool set up that display...and then made it a contest of SPEED.  Yes, how fast can you smack on the jimmy hat?

They were also using plastic "fruit" (which added to the reusability factor, I suppose, but also made the practice modules inhumanly durable...no "bruising" issues at all...)  -so some girls put every ounce of speed the could muster into jamming it on.

I still remember the photo that the campus newspaper reporter had snapped of it.  Two girls having just finished a speed trial, grinning savagely at each other as their forearms bulged with the effort of slamming a thin plastic wrap around a six inch dowel in under a second, knuckles sliding off the end to crack against the table with resounding "THUMP"s
...
And the photobombing guy in the background, slackjawed at what he just witnessed.
I can't tell if he was aroused that there were women who might be interested in learning that skill in this school, or terrified at the method employed.
 
2013-02-26 01:28:02 AM

Thunderpipes: Weaver95: Thunderpipes:
I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey. Now, given how extremely liberal all colleges are as well, and a woman on the board no less telling the chick she is a douche, I side with the college. Months of this evil abusive boyfriend, and then she goes to the college to get the guy in trouble? She was right. First time a guy abuses you, leave. Christ, not like she was married with kids and dependent either. And she was depressed and had suicide attempts? Crazy chick.

The other girl with head wound, go to the police, let them handle it.

its like you suffer from some form of mental disease or something....

How am I in any way wrong? Seriously. I am not. I am just not a panty waste crybaby head like most people. Dude hits you, leave. Story over. Sooner we stop allowing people to act like children and refuse to take responsibility for their actions, better we will be. Funny how society doesn't attack chicks that whip their husbands, huh?

Grow a pair, Cupcake.


Leave? I taught my daughter to instead "Stand her ground" and shoot your punk son in the face.......The NRA and the rest of the right will be behind us .....right.......
 
2013-02-26 01:28:38 AM

BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: People generally really don't want to acknowledge that the guy they think of as a pretty decent dude is a rapist.

Which is why the "my buddy in college was an awesome and funny guy and got falsely accused and I know this because he was my pal and therefore awesome and above such things" anecdote doesn't hold a lot of sway with me. It's certainly possible that decent dude met a super unstable woman, but sometimes that decent dude is secretly a major asshole.

It's also possible that the "unstable" woman who is acting way less cool than she was last night might be acting that way on account of being raped.


Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.
 
2013-02-26 01:29:42 AM

BarkingUnicorn: doglover: mesmer242: From what I can tell from the description of the "honor court", they got rid of the idea of lawyers and police officers, and made a bunch of college students both the judge and jury.

[i2.kym-cdn.com image 146x227]
Seriously!?

It started out innocently enough.   At first student courts handled only real "honor code" matters:  cheating on tests, streaking, puking in the communal showers, noise violations, and other college idiocies that real courts shouldn't be bothered with. Then they became tools of the schools for covering up real crimes.

"You student justices have done so well!  We think you're ready for more responsibilities."

The students ate it up, of course.


4.bp.blogspot.com


I AM THE LAW. But let's make this quick, I got some O-chem homework due tomorrow.
 
2013-02-26 01:29:55 AM
I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.
 
2013-02-26 01:30:11 AM

Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?


how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?
not that often, but enough that people are against it.
 
2013-02-26 01:33:44 AM

Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?
not that often, but enough that people are against it.


And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws  that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.
 
2013-02-26 01:33:52 AM
 silverjets: Why is she letting a student court even be involved?  Shouldn't a REAL court be handling her rape case?

Thank you - allows me to address the underlying problem:  When/why did the purpose of colleges deteriorate to the point that it is no longer to impart knowledge to providing a "life experience"?

OLD DAYS:
1.  They sell a product (knowledge), the price and quality of which is highly variable.
2.  People decide to purchase that product, pay for it, take it with them.
3.  If capable and diligent, they get a piece of paper attesting to their purchase of the entire product; if not capable and diligent, they get a piece of paper that shows that they purchased only a part of the product.
4.  While in the process of purchasing the product, they took care of themselves.

NEWER TIMES:
1.  They (many, not all) "market" a product of dubious value ("life experience"), the quality of which has become, in many cases, laughable.
2.  People, some through real desire, others through irresponsibility,  decide to partake of the product since someone else will frequently pay for it.
3.  Whether capable and diligent or incapable and slothful, most get a piece of paper attesting to their having been their long enough.  Even if capable and diligent,  everyone gets the same piece of paper.
4. While acquiring said "product", we provide "support" for the slackards through such methods as "social integration",  "multi-faceted growth development", and wiping their asses because that's what little snowflakes deserve - reinforcement of their irresponsibility.

To restate the question:  What the fark is the current purpose of colleges and universities?

/3 degrees, undergrad and 2 grad;  ask me why I didn't get the 4th.  Only outside help was GI Bill (('60's/' 70's not much):  line cook, fast food, grease monkey, etc.)

//First rant over.

///How do you get away from alumni associations?   To them: I paid the universities for their products, did not and never will join one of your silly little feel good groups,  you will get no money from me upon my death.  LEAVE ME ALONE!

////Angry much? No, but occasionally.


/First rant over
 
2013-02-26 01:35:44 AM

Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?


In this case, does it matter?

Never even occurred to you, she might be full of crap and the dude totally innocent, did it? He is guilty, according to you, and probably every girl on that campus, and lots of the guys too. He got no court of law, nothing.

Guilty until proven innocent. Nice.
 
2013-02-26 01:37:11 AM

Genevieve Marie: And yes, it would probably help if they kept internal files and tracked those cases, so if the same rapist's name keeps coming up again and again in these types of cases, they know that moving forward with expulsion or turning him over to law enforcement is probably a good idea.


I'm not sure if "how many times someone was accused of something in the past" is admissible as evidence in a court.
 
2013-02-26 01:37:56 AM

Potter82: I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.


Your assessment is accurate, but it's also beside the point.  All of that is merely background to the actual story here, which is that, when she complained to a higher authority about the school's mishandling of sexual assault cases, the clown court charged her with some clown-crime in what is obviously a retaliatory fashion.
 
2013-02-26 01:38:05 AM

Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: Genevieve Marie: Popular Opinion: how about perjury?

If someone lies under oath, sure. Do you know how rare it is for false accusations to make it to a court room?

how rarely is some innocent person put to death in prison?
not that often, but enough that people are against it.

And there are laws against perjury if someone lies under oath and it's proven they did it. You're arguing for laws  that already exist in that instance.

But if someone reports rape to the police and the police don't believe them? That doesn't mean it didn't happen and that doesn't mean they should be prosecuted. It just means either the rapist is going to walk, or the innocent man isn't going to be prosecuted and is free to move about his life.

Believe it or not, very rarely does a false rape charge that doesn't end in conviction get so much media attention that the man's life is ruined.


Employer does a Google search.... Sorry Rapey McRapems, we aren't hiring. Does a background check.... Sorry Evil Guy, arrest in Chickville in 2006 for rape. We are not hiring. What, you could not afford a $100,000 legal bill to get things expunged?
 
2013-02-26 01:38:18 AM

Genevieve Marie: Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.


Yeah.  The only reason I even dropped a counter argument is because of the contingents in these threads who say thing like "The major issue with sex crimes is that men are constantly falsely accused because 1.) Duke Lacrosse 2.) Tawana Brawley 3.) This cat from my dorm."
 
2013-02-26 01:40:08 AM

Thunderpipes: Guilty until proven innocent. Nice.


Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard and the basis for our criminal justice system. Everyone is entitled to have their freedom determined by a fair trial with a jury of their peers and to not face a conviction if they are not proven guilty.

However? NO ONE HAS AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO A GOOD REPUTATION. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for some of you. If he's thought guilty by most of his peers, it's probably not solely on this woman's word. Believe it or not, people do tend to make their own character judgments as best they possibly can.

The "guilty until proven innocent" argument in this case is about as stupid as arguing that second amendment rights are being violated when someone tells you your opinion is stupid.
 
2013-02-26 01:40:17 AM

China White Tea: Potter82: I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.

Your assessment is accurate, but it's also beside the point.  All of that is merely background to the actual story here, which is that, when she complained to a higher authority about the school's mishandling of sexual assault cases, the clown court charged her with some clown-crime in what is obviously a retaliatory fashion.


No, She didn't go to the police, instead cried to the college to get her ex boyfriend punished. They did not believe her, now she is mad and trying to hurt the college. Once again, you assume the guy is guilty and the University mishandled it. Guilty until proven innocent....
 
2013-02-26 01:41:18 AM

BSABSVR: Genevieve Marie: Yup. Those anecdotes never hold much sway with me either, but I've learned not to argue them. It tends to turn ugly really quickly.

Yeah.  The only reason I even dropped a counter argument is because of the contingents in these threads who say thing like "The major issue with sex crimes is that men are constantly falsely accused because 1.) Duke Lacrosse 2.) Tawana Brawley 3.) This cat from my dorm."


No, I'm glad you brought it up. More men who have those stories need to tell them.
 
2013-02-26 01:41:32 AM

BSABSVR: Fluorescent Testicle: BSABSVR: Have you never seen a rape thread before?  Or one of the endless "Autobiography of Doglover X" threads?  Cause you clearly are not new here.

I'm assuming sarcasm on his part. Seriously, Fark has so many rape defenders I'm surprised it's not on some kind of watch list.

What's interesting is how much of it isn't even the mealy-mouthed "If this guy is found guilty then he is probably a rapist, but until then I am looking at all parties suspiciously and c'mon ladies I don't walk around flashing a big wad of cash" defense.  Fark goes straight for the whole "women are all liars until proven otherwise also what is 'rape' nowadays anyhow? " defense.


Some how I now have this modified song running around in my head, only now the lyrics go:

"What is rape?  Baby don't hurt me, don't hurt me, no more."
 
2013-02-26 01:41:33 AM

Ambivalence: Heaven forbid we should hurt the rapist's fee fees.


You said fee twice...
 
2013-02-26 01:42:35 AM

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: Guilty until proven innocent. Nice.

Innocent until proven guilty is a legal standard and the basis for our criminal justice system. Everyone is entitled to have their freedom determined by a fair trial with a jury of their peers and to not face a conviction if they are not proven guilty.

However? NO ONE HAS AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO A GOOD REPUTATION. I'm not sure why this is such a difficult concept for some of you. If he's thought guilty by most of his peers, it's probably not solely on this woman's word. Believe it or not, people do tend to make their own character judgments as best they possibly can.

The "guilty until proven innocent" argument in this case is about as stupid as arguing that second amendment rights are being violated when someone tells you your opinion is stupid.


She wanted the guy relocated and a type of restraining order on him. Don't prance around and pretend this has no impact on the guy because it is not in the court system.
 
2013-02-26 01:42:46 AM
So did the (alleged) victim file charges, or is she just going around accusing her ex-boyfriend of rape?  If she was raped (and I'm not saying she wasn't), then the police need to be involved.  If she's not willing to go through the legal process (maybe she's just a psycho ex-girlfriend), then she is committing slander and libel which damn well is an honor code violation.
 
2013-02-26 01:45:26 AM

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Weaver95: atomicmask: Maybe she should wait for her "alleged" rapist to be convicted so its no longer an "Alleged" case and its a convicted case, other wise its just defaming the character of someone.

no, I don't think so.  look - she still has freedom of speech.  if she feels that the school was less than supportive of her claims of rape and has suggestions on how the administration can improve their handling of claims of rape then she SHOULD be heard.  if the administration blew off her concerns, and it looks like that might have been the case, then she's justified in doing something to grab their attention.

that's an action independent of the rape case.  she can actually keep that a separate issue and it sounds like that's what she did.  she hasn't publicly named her (accused) rapist.  she was upset with how the school reacted.

Bigger question:  Why is the school involved in anyway concerning this alleged criminal matter?  Sure she has free speech and they can either do something or do nothing concerning her matter and in both cases they aren't wrong for it.  She doesn't need "grab their attention", she needs to pursue a criminal complaint.  Holding the school liable for for any action of a third party whether it was before or after the rape should hold no bearing.  If anything the school appears to be avoiding being drug into a possible lawsuit of the alleged rapist against them for giving her a soapbox.  It's a shiatty legal dodge but we live in a very litigious world where victims get sued by their attackers anymore and win.


Her complaint (along with 4 other named plaintiffs and 60 unnamed ones) is that UNC engaged in a pattern of denying students their legal rights (due process and equal protection, at the least).  She's saying that UNC consciously and deliberately acted in the interests of sexual predators to further its own interests. That's something UNC allegedly did, not a third party.   That pattern of conduct will be found far beyond the court room; it starts with freshman orientation about how to handle grievances including sex crimes.

UNC's feeble defense seems to be, "We didn't do anything; a totally independent student organization did it.  We even gave them A WHOLE DAY of training!"  Not going to wash; for one thing, the student court has a faculty adviser who was responsible for monitoring the court. For another, UNC relieved the court of jurisdiction over sexual assaults shortly before this complaint was filed, establishing that it does have control over the court.

On the plaintiffs' side is the former assistant dean of students who was responsible for sexual assault matters. She left recently over disagreements about how she could do her job. "Gulp!" goes UNC's lawyer.

If the feds don't investigate and drop a megaton hammer on  UNC, I hope the female students burn that motherfarker to the ground.
 
2013-02-26 01:46:12 AM

stiletto_the_wise: Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

If the above story is considered rape, then the definition of rape has grown to encompass so much that it is virtually un-provable and nearly un-distinguishable from consensual sex when examined after the fact.


What part of non-consensual ("you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested") don't you understand?!!
 
2013-02-26 01:48:24 AM

Thunderpipes: China White Tea: Potter82: I'm really confused by this article. Why is a case involving sexual assault being dealt with a university and not by the criminal justice system? This statement almost makes it sound like she chose this venue:

"It's the venue in which Gambill attempted to resolve the sexual assault and stalking she claims she suffered at the hands of her ex-boyfriend." 

For the love of god why?This sort of thing is so far beyond a "Honor Court" its ridiculous. Take it out of clown shoe court and bring it to a real court with actual real adults where the alleged rapist will have to worry about more than just his reputation.

Your assessment is accurate, but it's also beside the point.  All of that is merely background to the actual story here, which is that, when she complained to a higher authority about the school's mishandling of sexual assault cases, the clown court charged her with some clown-crime in what is obviously a retaliatory fashion.

No, She didn't go to the police, instead cried to the college to get her ex boyfriend punished. They did not believe her, now she is mad and trying to hurt the college. Once again, you assume the guy is guilty and the University mishandled it. Guilty until proven innocent....


Look, I get that you're only every so slightly more literate than most of my meals, but what I actually pointed out was that the guilt or innocence of her would-be attacker is farkING IRRELEVANT to this particular story.

Girl files complaint against school with federal agency.
School retaliates against girl. 

That's the actual core issue here.
 
2013-02-26 01:48:33 AM

Genevieve Marie: Also, to all the men who are all "Oh just go straight to the police, bam conviction. Easy." Think about it more- try to imagine how you'd feel after say, waking up hungover, because maybe you had too much to drink and maybe someone drugged you. Then realizing that the guy in bed next to you raped you the night before. Now you're still sick and confused and you know something's wrong, but you can't quite put words to it, I mean, you know this guy. Maybe not all that well- he's in a few of your classes. But he seems pretty normal. Also, he's putting on his clothes and leaving and telling you bye and acting like whatever just happened wasn't that big a deal, even though you know you didn't want to have sex with him and you know you didn't say yes. In fact, you remember telling him you weren't interested. But you know that accusing someone of rape is a huge deal and you know the circumstances are pretty fuzzy.

So what's your first reaction? Do you jump out of bed and go "Oh man, clearly this was rape and I must go to the police right now." Do you sit through a rape kit which takes hours, go through a full gynecological exam (which is way more invasive than most men probably realize) and have people combing over every part of your naked body and all of your body cavities for any trace of evidence all the while knowing your story probably isn't going to hold up in court?

Or do you just try and move on as best you can... but still, you're afraid of this person. You know what they did wasn't right and they don't make you feel safe. All of a sudden, they're turning up wherever you are. You're depressed and sad and school no longer feels like a safe place to be.

At that point, would it not maybe occur to you to seek help from the school administration? And would it not be totally devastating to be accused of lying and basically told to suck it up?

That right there- that is the reality of campus rape most of the time. Many people know this, and yet schools are still very r ...


The reality is that there is this icky place, somewhere between happy-healthy-sex and rapey-rape-rape -- and that place is a *frequent* destination of young adults, just beginning to experiment with their sexuality.

Over the last 20 years, universities have defined more and more of that middle ground into the rapey-rape-rape column, for their own purposes, through a dazzling array of initiatives and judicial deck-stacking --- the sum of which simply doesn't square with your characterization of those institutions as hotbeds of neglect.

Don't get me wrong; this university needs to be sued out the wazoo for attempting to silence a student on some bullshiat "honor" charge, simply for saying something that might embarrass the school. But, that's a different matter...
 
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