Philbb: bigwf2007: She describes him as a rapist. The words rape or rapist appear four times in the Huffington Post article. The phrase "sexual assault" appears seven times.

So, what's your point? She describes "him" as a rapist yet, never publicly identifies "him". Are we to assume that the rapist might be a "her"? That's not unprecedented, but is still very unlikely. She thinks it was an ex-boyfriend, but doesn't give any more details than that.

i'm not quite sure what you are talking about. She's quite adamant that her ex-boyfriend attacked her. If you read the article linked from the HffPo piece, she says it was part of a pattner.

And why are some people saying the university forced her to go to the honor court when the article linked from HuffPo clearly states she went to the honor court rather that the legal system because she thought it would be quiicker.

doglover: mesmer242: The stupidity of having undergrads in charge of a miniature legal system, especially one that covers felonies, is astounding.

Real cops don't even need a BA, do they?

Judges need a law degree in most jurisdictions, as do lawyers. Juries obviously don't, but are generally given instructions by the judge.

From what I can tell from the description of the "honor court", they got rid of the idea of lawyers and police officers, and made a bunch of college students both the judge and jury. It's not going to go well for UNC.

BarkingUnicorn: Damn, you really know your imaginary history!

Which part is imaginary? That Clayton Williams really said that? That it cost him the election? That Ann Richards won because of that? That George W. Bush was able to run against her afterwards because the GOP had no incumbent in the race? That George W. Bush could never have been taken seriously enough to run for, let alone become, President, without first being Governor of a State or a U.S. Senator? That George W. Bush's two terms, which could not have happened without that joke, seriously messed up this nation?

Dokushin: You know, no one had to tell me "not to rape."  Just like no one had to tell me not to murder.  Frankly, I find it pretty farking offensive when people say this -- that they think men have to be "trained" not to rape.  There are criminals among us.  We need to do more to look after their mental health and to perhaps cure them of the diseases that destroy their ability to reason.  But men are not criminals, and they do not need to be taught how to have respect for others.


I guess you haven't been paying attention to the news or in Fark threads, because there sure is a hell of a lot of men being "trained" that it IS ok to rape.  When you live in a society in which men have been brought up constantly bombarded with messages that some rape isn't "true rape," isn't "rape rape", isn't "legitimate rape," et cetera, or that "she deserved it because..." you can BET people worry that men need to be told to the contrary.

And I'm so very, very sorry that you find this offensive.  I wasn't aware that your precious little feelings were more important than, say, NOT RAPING PEOPLE.  Perhaps if I hunt long enough, I can find a suitably small violin to express my concern.

Weaver95: ongbok: Weaver95: Voiceofreason01: Weaver95:
you weren't paying attention, were you?

There aren't enough details in the article to know anything for sure other than someone, somewhere is outraged. There's a lot of circumstantial evidence that's pretty damning if you look at it from a certain point of view but no hard evidence. Am I supposed to be outraged by this?

if you follow along with the links embedded in the story, there are certainly more details than you seem to have noticed.  besides, the details of the rape aren't at issue.  the schools handling of the situation is what's at stake.

Well for the girl in this story she never went to the police to report her ex for the prior abuse and stalking. She went to the Honor Court instead to have him kicked out of school, and that was her mistake there. The Honor Court doesn't have any power to investigate, only thing they are going to do is listen to both sides and decide who is telling the truth, and it seems like they didn't believe her. I wonder if she ever filled a police report against him.

except that what you are saying is completely and in all ways wrong, sure.  even if you don't believe her story, there's STILL a bunch of other rape victims to consider.  but even that STILL misses the point.

here, pay attention because this is the important part - it's not the rape plague that is the problem (although that's pretty bad in and of itself), the problem is that the schools policy for handling rape victims is really, horribly bad.  terrible, in fact.  horrific.  they pretended nothing was wrong.  assumed the victim was lying, expected her to prove rape TO THEM.  not to a court. not to the cops.  she had to prove rape...to the school.  on her own, with no lawyer or process in place to assure her anything would be done.  And she - and other women who went through the same thing - thought the school could do things better.

the school disagreed and punished her for speaking up about their crappy customer servic ...

That is why she should have went to the police not the honor court. The honor court has no authority to question witnesses, make people testify or investigate. Only thing the honor court is is a bunch of people, who more than likely don't have any type of investigative training, listening to to sides of a story and deciding who is right or wrong. These people have no training or experience dealing with victims to understand their mental state or why somebody would stay in an abusive relationship. Going to the honor court about somebody committing a crime against you is like asking your neighbor to turn his garden hose on your house if your house is on fire.

And I will say it does seem like the school has a "walk it off" attitude when it comes to rape and assault, which is despicable. But at the same time if you never reported your assault to the actual police you shouldn't complain about how the school treated you.

mesmer242: I was in student government in college and we had power over a small fee that was collected and funded various clubs. That's about it. Oh, the student body president would have meetings with deans and such, but there really wasn't any power over anything but the entertainment/student life. The stupidity of having undergrads in charge of a miniature legal system, especially one that covers felonies, is astounding.

Thank goodness you went to a sane (at least in that regard) university.

Big Dave: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I grew up in liberal parts of California and Oregon, but I played sports so I was able to mix with other young men outside student government and model united nations, and I knew way back in junior high that boys will do whatever they can get away with.
I could tell you story after story of how men rape women, abuse them, and yet since they go to school together or work together, the situation is hushed up or covered up.  The women know their lives and relationships will be ruined if they go public, and since the men know this too they suffer no consequences.
Man, grow up and find out what happens in the real world.

You've brought a good point on rape in our society and it is true considering how many women are almost raped. If rape isn't as common as people like to think then who is doing all the rape? I won't be surprised if at least on average a man won't try rape at least once in his life, regardless or not if the rape was a success. The math just doesn't work out.

Popular Opinion: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Popular Opinion: Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."

probably too stupid to not be trolling

Eh, I've been present at a few court evals for alleged child rapists.  One guy basically said the same thing.  Granted, we ordered testing because he seemed to be severely mentally impaired, but that kind of incredibly naive and utterly ridiculous thinking is not outside the realm of possibility as I have seen it before.

On the flip side, I have seen many, many patients falsely accuse people of raping them, sometimes due to psychotic, delusional thinking, and other times as attention-seeking behavior consistent with their psychopathology.  I have also seen patients who were legitimately raped, and it breaks your heart to see the damage that it can do to some people.

these personality types are not exactly beacons of truth.
also, research aside, the "typical college rapist" is a student who probably gets away with it 90% of the time, due to the intoxicated state of their victims, so i doubt you have actually been "interviewing" or studying the types of predators we are talking about (in this case).

In this case, no.  I have never been present at a court eval involving a "date-rape" styled rape.  It's all been the very clear cut, generally serial rapist who lurks in the bushes kind.

HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I grew up in liberal parts of California and Oregon, but I played sports so I was able to mix with other young men outside student government and model united nations, and I knew way back in junior high that boys will do whatever they can get away with.
I could tell you story after story of how men rape women, abuse them, and yet since they go to school together or work together, the situation is hushed up or covered up.  The women know their lives and relationships will be ruined if they go public, and since the men know this too they suffer no consequences.
Man, grow up and find out what happens in the real world.

Excuse you?  Your statement was "we do not tell men not to rape."  I pointed out that, at least since the early 90's, the US culture, and in particular our public school system, has gone out of its way to hammer into young mens' minds that no means no, and often maybe means no.  You came back with stories of jocks who choose to ignore all the authority figures telling them not to touch other peoples' no-no spots.  That's like saying murder isn't against the law because you keep hearing about serial killers on the news.

Our culture at the very least excuses rape, and does everything possible to cover up allegations unless the media can sell more ads by sensationalizing a particular case.  You are talking about the weak
"get consent for every escalation of sex" campaign which has nothing to do with reality.  A flimsy commercial you admit is something you only remember from 10 years ago has nothing to do with the reality facing women today.
Go outside and talk to women.  They don't give a shiat that you are scared to ask them out.  They want rapists to be held accountable in this society and you refraining from asking for a date isn't contributing much.

mesmer242: doglover: mesmer242: The stupidity of having undergrads in charge of a miniature legal system, especially one that covers felonies, is astounding.

Real cops don't even need a BA, do they?

Judges need a law degree in most jurisdictions, as do lawyers. Juries obviously don't, but are generally given instructions by the judge.

From what I can tell from the description of the "honor court", they got rid of the idea of lawyers and police officers, and made a bunch of college students both the judge and jury. It's not going to go well for UNC.

ding ding ding

/*sighs conspicuously*

Weaver95: skullkrusher:
She availed herself of the "honor court" option.

..because she had no choice...she didn't like that and wanted another option.  she was told 'honor court or nothing' and to STFU about it, not to mention it to the press and get over it.

not to mention that the 'court' was run by ill trained fellow students who did a sloppy job and might very well have let their own bias decide the 'case'.  no appeals either, and don't talk about it to the press or you can kiss your degree goodbye.


If you are talking about Gambill, the first link inb the article says she chose to go to honor court rather than to the justice system because she thought it would be quicker and less complicated.

Theaetetus: Voiceofreason01: The fact that she tried to resolve the problem in university honor court and not through the police is unusual.

Not so. The University Honor Court had jurisdiction over sexual assault and harassment claims and most students chose not to pursue criminal charges:
The only recourse for students who opted not to go to the court was to seek criminal charges, which most chose not to do, Manning said. That means most perpetrators would go completely unpunished.
The fact that she tried to resolve the problem this way and not through the police is entirelynormal, even if we disagree with the wisdom and result.

Nowhere does it say a person must pursue an allegation of rape through the honor court or is a student precluded from seeking criminal and civil recourse from her attacker.

/your reflexive attack to ward anyone who questions anything about this set of circumstance makes you appear more than a little unhinged.
//does my response make me a sociopath too?

True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.

Genevieve Marie: Thunderpipes: I do find it odd all these magical rapists are running around, not even getting kicked out of college, let alone charged with a crime, and they are all guilty. Sounds like a bunch of malarkey.

 You should look into some of the studies that have been done about proclivity to rape. There have been quite a few studies done that show that many young men don't recognize rape as problematic if the survey calls it something else.

Some women have problems identifying it as such right away too. Social conditioning influences the way we think more than many of us like to admit.

There are a lot of scholarly articles about men's attitudes towards rape on google scholar, should you care to explore them. This is also a pretty good personal account of the kind of rape that goes on where men don't get charged with a crime: http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/laurie-penny-its-nic e -to-think-that-only-evil-men-are-rapists--that-its-only-pantomime-vill ains-with-knives-in-alleyways-but-the-reality-is-different-8079403.htm l

Say no. Go. Tell an adult. Problem solved. Hell, a chick can be into it, bang a dude, regret it the next day, and the guy is guilty because she was drunk, even though he had no reason to suspect trickery. How fair is that? How would a she-beast like it if guys could wake up next to Fatty McFatbottom with a hangover, and just cry rape because they were drunk (and the chick was guilty and had her life ruined no matter what)?

Once again, if these women were raped, why are they going to the damn college and not the police? Besides head wound girl of course, I think she did?

Rape is bad. Dude does it, he needs his ass kicked hard and thrown in jail. Everyone should agree on that. But there needs to be heavy laws in place to protect guys too. The Duke case was a spectacular example of how lopsided the justice system is against men.

meat0918: Why does that seem like copypasta from a different college wants to cover up rape thread?

History doesn't repeat itself, but it copypasta's.  If you yanked a roman judge from 100BC and stuck him behind the bench, very little would surprise him except that he couldn't just order people horse whipped or sold to slavery.

\Know some people that need a whipping

The 4chan Psychiatrist: Popular Opinion: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Popular Opinion: Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."

probably too stupid to not be trolling

Eh, I've been present at a few court evals for alleged child rapists.  One guy basically said the same thing.  Granted, we ordered testing because he seemed to be severely mentally impaired, but that kind of incredibly naive and utterly ridiculous thinking is not outside the realm of possibility as I have seen it before.

On the flip side, I have seen many, many patients falsely accuse people of raping them, sometimes due to psychotic, delusional thinking, and other times as attention-seeking behavior consistent with their psychopathology.  I have also seen patients who were legitimately raped, and it breaks your heart to see the damage that it can do to some people.

these personality types are not exactly beacons of truth.
also, research aside, the "typical college rapist" is a student who probably gets away with it 90% of the time, due to the intoxicated state of their victims, so i doubt you have actually been "interviewing" or studying the types of predators we are talking about (in this case).

In this case, no.  I have never been present at a court eval involving a "date-rape" styled rape.  It's all been the very clear cut, generally serial rapist who lurks in the bushes kind.

fine. and i am saying that these sorts of offenders are not (as somebody suggested) incapable of knowing right from wrong, or actually believing they are not doing something wrong.
these sick f*cks know what they are doing, do it over and over, because they mostly get away with it.

And really, I have to know: Who thought it would be a good idea to let some idiot children without with no significant legal education or bar licensing act as judges, juries, and legal counsel for sexual assault cases?

"My roommate bought diet Pepsi instead of diet Coke and I'm a little peeved about it," is the threshold for the significance of shiat these people should have ever been trusted to handle.  Anything more important than that and it goes to someone who knows what the fark they are doing.

JohnnyRebel88: True Story:
 My good friend that has the utmost credibility to me and others, and is a pussy, was accused of rape.  The police did not follow through with the charges.  She had cheated on her boyfriend with my friend, whom I believed he hated.  Women wanna get f*d sometimes because they are whores, drunks and liars.  This woman has no reason to do this if she was leading to his name, which I am sure she was doing, also is it not considered to be defamation as to the school's credibility.  Unless this is a Sandusky type case, she should shut the f up and get help elsewhere.

This could of been personal, she also might of threatened the school.  No info, no reason to be up in arms.

This thread is over the limit on trolls at this time. Try your troll again later.

China White Tea: And really, I have to know: Who thought it would be a good idea to let some idiot children without with no significant legal education or bar licensing act as judges, juries, and legal counsel for sexual assault cases?

Apparently the "victim" did.

Fallout Boy: The math just doesn't work out.

pff, that's not what I was saying and don't put words in my mouth.
The % of men who actually commit rape is, I hope, low.
The number of men who laugh it off, assume the woman must have wanted it, led him on, is lying, etc - that's what leads to the small % of rapists being able to get away with it.

And, especially in a thread about rape in college, we should remember that most rapes aren't a guy crawling into a window at 3am - they're at a high school or college party where the boys/men specifically plan their actions.  They make sure the woman they have picked gets drunk, gets separated from her friends, and then they get together and rape her.  I've heard of it happening dozens of times from both victim and perpetrator.

Hagenhatesyouall: Was the dude convicted of raping her?

If so, the school is farked.

If not, then that biatch needs to shut the fark up and suck up some slander charges.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Big Dave: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: HotWingAgenda: Big Dave: but we do not tell our men not to rape.

What redneck backwater did you grow up in?  I was a child in the politically correct 90's, and the schools were mandated to give seminars at least twice a year from elementary school onward about how if we boys ever even looked at a girl funny, that was rape, and our lives would be over.  F*ck, I was afraid to even ask any girls out until I got to college, for fear of being labeled some sort of sexual predator.

/college sweetheart was stalked and abused by the guy she ditched me for
//she went straight to the cops and didn't tell the school, other than to advise them of the restraining order

I grew up in liberal parts of California and Oregon, but I played sports so I was able to mix with other young men outside student government and model united nations, and I knew way back in junior high that boys will do whatever they can get away with.
I could tell you story after story of how men rape women, abuse them, and yet since they go to school together or work together, the situation is hushed up or covered up.  The women know their lives and relationships will be ruined if they go public, and since the men know this too they suffer no consequences.
Man, grow up and find out what happens in the real world.

Excuse you?  Your statement was "we do not tell men not to rape."  I pointed out that, at least since the early 90's, the US culture, and in particular our public school system, has gone out of its way to hammer into young mens' minds that no means no, and often maybe means no.  You came back with stories of jocks who choose to ignore all the authority figures telling them not to touch other peoples' no-no spots.  That's like saying murder isn't against the law because you keep hearing about serial killers on the news.

Our culture at the very least excuses rape, and does everything possible to cover up allegations unless the media can sell more ads by sensationalizing a par ...

No one here said anything about a commercial... at any point.

Good god, I just realized I've been trying to have a rational conversation with a crazy person.  kthxbye

Popular Opinion: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Popular Opinion: The 4chan Psychiatrist: Popular Opinion: Philbb: Theaetetus: You're right, most men do not have to be told not to rape, and the few who do won't listen, because they know exactly what the fark they're doing.

I disagree. From what I have learned from researching and listening to rapists, the majority of them do not believe that anything they did was wrong. It was the victims fault. Including a few comments from child rapists along the lines of, "Okay, so she's six years old, but she seduced me. If she hadn't come on to me like that I wouldn't have done anything."

probably too stupid to not be trolling

Eh, I've been present at a few court evals for alleged child rapists.  One guy basically said the same thing.  Granted, we ordered testing because he seemed to be severely mentally impaired, but that kind of incredibly naive and utterly ridiculous thinking is not outside the realm of possibility as I have seen it before.

On the flip side, I have seen many, many patients falsely accuse people of raping them, sometimes due to psychotic, delusional thinking, and other times as attention-seeking behavior consistent with their psychopathology.  I have also seen patients who were legitimately raped, and it breaks your heart to see the damage that it can do to some people.

these personality types are not exactly beacons of truth.
also, research aside, the "typical college rapist" is a student who probably gets away with it 90% of the time, due to the intoxicated state of their victims, so i doubt you have actually been "interviewing" or studying the types of predators we are talking about (in this case).

In this case, no.  I have never been present at a court eval involving a "date-rape" styled rape.  It's all been the very clear cut, generally serial rapist who lurks in the bushes kind.

fine. and i am saying that these sorts of offenders are not (as somebody suggested) incapable of knowing right from wrong, or actually believing ...

Yeah, and that doesn't surprise me.  Most sexual offenders, in my limited experience, do understand what they are doing is wrong on some level, but, feel obligated to act upon their deviant urges, as evidenced by the attempts to cover up the crime after the fact.

nekulor: Rape cases are inherently fuzzy, and the physical evidence is completely biological and degrades in, at the most, 1 month's time.

I'm probably going to take so much flak for this, but I hopefully I don't come out as appearing to defend rapists because that's not what I really intend. But I think that this really contributes to a lot of the disagreements between people. (Obviously not all of it, and not what's really a cloak for outright misogyny or (less commonly) misandry.)

I mean, think about it this way. Suppose you're on the jury for a shoplifting case. When the police caught the defendant, he had the object which was allegedly stolen. The shopowner testifies that the defendant left the store without paying. The defendant testifies that he did, in fact, pay.

That's all the evidence you get. There are no other witnesses. You don't get to see an accounting of the day's sales to determine if the item's value is missing, or the defendant's credit card history. There's no security footage.

Do you find him guilty?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't. Now, I don't know what sort of evidence is in play for the majority of rape cases, but I can certainly imagine that in a large number of cases -- perhaps even a majority -- wind up like this. (Obviously the unusual "snatched by someone in the bushes" scenario will often leave lots of other physical trauma, but isn't date rape the most common scenario? I bet that you wouldn't get that sort of thing most of the time. And in those scenarios, even a rape kit just gives evidence that the two people had sex; it says nothing about consent.)  

So what do you do? It seems like a lose-lose situation. I don't like the idea of convicting someone in a case where almost the sole evidence for an essential component of the crime is what a witness says happened, even if that witness appears very credible.

So what do you do? If you take my I'm-not-actually-sure-how-strawman-this-is position, then most rapists walk. If you side with the accuser, you (according to that position) are depriving the defendant of his civil rights and not giving him a fair trial.

Now, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there's more physical evidence than I'd assume; if so, perhaps the fact that this isn't public knowledge is part of the problem. But if not.... it seems like a very thorny scenario.

(And then of course there are weird hopefully-hypothetical scenarios that the part of me that thought about going to law school would love to read about. Like, if Alice is totally smashed and Bob has sex with her, he's raping her. What happens if Bob is also smashed? Are they raping each other? If so, can Bob purposely go have a ton of drinks and then use a threat of mutual prosecution as a "defense"?)