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(National Journal)   It's the darndest thing, but somehow, after a decade of treating the most innocent hackers as dangerous felons, the US finds itself with a terrible shortage of cybersecurity experts to help it fight off new IT attacks by foreign cyber-criminals   (nationaljournal.com) divider line 103
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3644 clicks; posted to Geek » on 25 Feb 2013 at 2:55 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-25 02:46:37 PM  
There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.
 
2013-02-25 03:03:43 PM  

EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.


Actually, I was a legal hacker back in the day - originally it meant somebody who 'hacked' their own stuff, such as a car, to improve performance, looks, whatever.  When I did it it was that I would edit stuff on my own computer to get it to do what I wanted.  I never went for unauthorized access on other systems.

We need the white hats though; people who understand computers at a deeper level and know the methods that could be used to get in, so we can prepare defenses.
 
2013-02-25 03:04:16 PM  

EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.


Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.
 
2013-02-25 03:08:07 PM  

torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.


never attribute ...
 
2013-02-25 03:08:54 PM  
I got busted breaking into a local university system back in 1992.  They thought I was changing grades.  I was just playing games and getting on chat rooms.  Wasn't allowed to even own a computer for 3 years.
 
2013-02-25 03:09:15 PM  

torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.


"There is no such thing as an "innocent" shooter. Shooting is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government. This is true about many aspects of warfare.
 
2013-02-25 03:09:37 PM  
Once again the security state screws itself, don't you feel safer?
 
2013-02-25 03:09:54 PM  
The only real difference between a good sys admin and a hacker is who signs their paycheck.

They both use the same linux boot disk to recover passwords, they use the same network port scanning tools, etc.
 
2013-02-25 03:10:03 PM  

EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.


I have hacked many many devices.  And they were all mine.  But you are correct, I am hardly "innocent", especially considering what I did to Becky Turner back in high school.
 
2013-02-25 03:10:36 PM  

torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.


I'd go with dolt myself.  Too many people claim to know all about hackers and whatnot but have no idea why I giggle when someone has a voice vlan of 2600...
 
2013-02-25 03:10:53 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

I have hacked many many devices.  And they were all mine.  But you are correct, I am hardly "innocent", especially considering what I did to Becky Turner back in high school.


go on...
 
2013-02-25 03:15:14 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

I have hacked many many devices.  And they were all mine.  But you are correct, I am hardly "innocent", especially considering what I did to Becky Turner back in high school.


According to the DMCA you are not innocent either, the government doesn't care about you getting shot down by Becky.
 
2013-02-25 03:16:53 PM  
img705.imageshack.us

Go on, subby. Tell us more about this "decade" of the government mistreating hackers.

While you're at it, tell us what it's like being born in the 90's.
 
2013-02-25 03:21:15 PM  

EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.


and that attitude is why we are up shiat's creek today.  A majority of the hacker community used to probe system vulnerabilities out of sheer curiousity as to how they worked, (doing so for personal gain was considered the height of bad taste)  and they freely communicated thier findings to their targets who were able to use that information to improve security.  Back in the day most exploits were discovered and patched long befor ethey were actually used by someone with malicious intent.  Now, in an era where "jailbreaking" you phon eis a potential felony, such lines of communication have dried up, and the Chinese military is having a feild day with our infrastructure
 
2013-02-25 03:22:17 PM  
Won't someone think of the poor, innocent hackerz?!
 
2013-02-25 03:24:21 PM  

itstehpope: torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.

I'd go with dolt myself.  Too many people claim to know all about hackers and whatnot but have no idea why I giggle when someone has a voice vlan of 2600...


I know a ton about hackers, man; I even watched that one documentary that had a young Angelina Jolie.
 
2013-02-25 03:26:59 PM  

MrEricSir: [img705.imageshack.us image 193x263]

Go on, subby. Tell us more about this "decade" of the government mistreating hackers.

While you're at it, tell us what it's like being born in the 90's.


Mitnick 's  weak sauce defense of "well I only used SOCIAL engineering to steal passwords and entirch myself, not software." doesn't make him much of martyr, and when he started farking with the e-911 system, what was his "white hat" intent?
 
2013-02-25 03:27:29 PM  
Zero Tolerance in schools spills over into HR departments, and this is what happens. any questions?


/The only people allowed in most companies these days that have records are the CEOs.
 
2013-02-25 03:29:51 PM  
I know! Why don't we get a bunch of technically illiterate lawyers to reform the legal code!

And since they're technically illiterate, maybe we could have thm be informed by whatever interest groups have enough money to hire someone to inform them on all the important matters! Maybe even draft some legislation for them! What could possibly go wrong?
 
2013-02-25 03:32:33 PM  

itstehpope: torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.

I'd go with dolt myself.  Too many people claim to know all about hackers and whatnot but have no idea why I giggle when someone has a voice vlan of 2600...


It's time to come to terms with the fact that you're just a phreak
 
2013-02-25 03:32:38 PM  

torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.


You say that like there's a difference.
 
2013-02-25 03:33:58 PM  
...and now anyone who does try to tell a company about a security vulnerability they've found will be slapped with a lawsuit.
 
2013-02-25 03:36:31 PM  

cubic_spleen: torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.

You say that like there's a difference.


Trolling is fun when people take the bait. I get emailed gems once in a while from a comment I made on a youtube video talking by talking shiat about Linkin park. People get angry and they amuse.
 
2013-02-25 03:38:51 PM  

Magorn: MrEricSir: [img705.imageshack.us image 193x263]

Go on, subby. Tell us more about this "decade" of the government mistreating hackers.

While you're at it, tell us what it's like being born in the 90's.

Mitnick 's  weak sauce defense of "well I only used SOCIAL engineering to steal passwords and entirch myself, not software." doesn't make him much of martyr, and when he started farking with the e-911 system, what was his "white hat" intent?


No, what makes him a martyr is being jailed for years without trial.
 
2013-02-25 03:41:15 PM  
I think it would help if people dropped the zero tolerance policy.  There have been a few stories on fark where a hacker has reported a flaw in a company's security and been brought up on charges for it.
 
2013-02-25 03:43:34 PM  
Was "Dumbass" tag unavailable? Talk about a war to lose, they've alienated anyone local who might help and were getting pounded on the foreign front.
 
2013-02-25 03:49:58 PM  

MrEricSir: Magorn: MrEricSir: [img705.imageshack.us image 193x263]

Go on, subby. Tell us more about this "decade" of the government mistreating hackers.

While you're at it, tell us what it's like being born in the 90's.

Mitnick 's  weak sauce defense of "well I only used SOCIAL engineering to steal passwords and entirch myself, not software." doesn't make him much of martyr, and when he started farking with the e-911 system, what was his "white hat" intent?

No, what makes him a martyr is being jailed for years without trial.


You mean after he broke his probation he got automatically sent to jail for the remainder of his original sentence without further trial?  If that makes him a martyr, half the US prison population is right here with him.  Mitnick was a classic example of Snowflake Syndrome: he figured he was so bright that the rules simply didn;t apply to him, and so he was reduced to whining about how horribly UNFAIR it was when the government insisted that they actually did.  Did the prosecution go overboard?  Yes, yes they did, but as a former criminal law attorney, I'll let you in on a little secret: they ALWAYS go overboard,   but when they are charging a big scary black guy with 100 counts of possession with intent to distribute because they busted him with one key of crack, you cluck and say "if you can't do the crime, don't do the crime".  It's only when the hamme of "justice" comes down on someone you can identify that you start looking into how unfair it all is and come away believing how uniquely screwed the guy in that one case was.

Mitnick enriched himself off his hacking, that makes him a thief not a hacker in my book
 
2013-02-25 03:54:25 PM  
The problem is, if your really good at hacking, your ether a for the lulz type with a day job, a criminal working some black market activity, or selling your skills as a security consultant.

How do you get any of those types to give up what they are doing for a desk job with probably far less pay?
 
2013-02-25 03:55:08 PM  

EvilEgg: Marcus Aurelius: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

I have hacked many many devices.  And they were all mine.  But you are correct, I am hardly "innocent", especially considering what I did to Becky Turner back in high school.

According to the DMCA you are not innocent either, the government doesn't care about you getting shot down by Becky.


The DMCA didn't pass Congress until 1997.  All my hacking occurred prior to that.

In any case, if you purchase a device, it's yours to do with as you please.  Land of the free and all.
 
2013-02-25 03:55:48 PM  

ProfessorOhki: itstehpope: torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.

I'd go with dolt myself.  Too many people claim to know all about hackers and whatnot but have no idea why I giggle when someone has a voice vlan of 2600...

I know a ton about hackers, man; I even watched that one documentary that had a young Angelina Jolie.


Pfft, go back to defacing your desktop wallpaper, n00b.  Everyone knows that the only true hacker movie is Swordfish.

/Now run home to mommy before I go in over the phone lines, pop the firewall, drop in the hydra and wait for your money to start rolling in.
 
2013-02-25 04:00:51 PM  
There are no "Hackers" and there is no "Hacking" going on.

Now go back and vote more creationists in to your Congressional Science Committee, and be sure to buy more guns because the mean ol' guv'mint said you cant.
 
2013-02-25 04:03:44 PM  
The cries of "How dare he mess with a highly sensitive system"  always seem funny to me.   Mainly because people like to criminalize people who "do things" to their "stuff".       And they want to be able to see these "bad people" so they can be bought to justice.

People like to use the "If a door is locked and you open it its a crime, it should be the same for a computer"  argument. The one thing people fail to realize is that the lock on your door has had hundreds of years to reach a point where it is considered a strong measure of security.

Is it a crime?  To the letter of the law, yes.   However, we have been missing out on these chances to improve and improvise because we believe ourselves to have nothing left to learn and nothing to improve upon.     Instead everything is a knee jerk reaction to maintain the status quo in the name of safety as if we feel that we have innovated enough.  So now you have these hackers outside the US... mostly untouchable, who have been able to innovate and continue to grow and they have gotten very very good.    Hopefully this serves as a wake up call.
 
2013-02-25 04:05:38 PM  
upload.wikimedia.org

"We have waited centuries for this moment. The rivers will flow with the blood of those who oppose us."

VOTE KANE FOR U.S. INTERNET CZAR CZAR!
 
2013-02-25 04:07:12 PM  
bitcrusher.free.fr

only thing I hacked
 
2013-02-25 04:08:29 PM  
well no shiat...

especially when you risk jail by reporting security issues, clicking an edit button on webdev software on a site you need to place a logo on and it opens up with admin permissions cause whoever set it up was a retard, or guessing someones password is 12345 etc...

it's laughable the things that "hackers" can be arrested for.

/brb changing suitcase combination
 
2013-02-25 04:08:51 PM  
If only there were some Men dressed in black suits from the NSA who could say "Son, we can make all this unpleasantness go away if you just do a little work for us."

I'd do it, but I'd just look like some aging Blues Brother in that black suit.
 
2013-02-25 04:11:22 PM  

neversubmit: Marcus Aurelius: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

I have hacked many many devices.  And they were all mine.  But you are correct, I am hardly "innocent", especially considering what I did to Becky Turner back in high school.

go on...


Oh you know all those toys with easy to reach PCBs and no-name palm-pilot knock-offs were just the tip of the iceberg...
 
2013-02-25 04:12:08 PM  
Kinda the approach Stalin took with his generals prior to WWII.
 
2013-02-25 04:12:51 PM  
CSB: when I was in high school (class of 2002), my school purchased a bunch of new computers running Windows 98 and a third-party security program called Fortres, to keep students from doing anything they shouldn't do.  It was a terrible security program, not so much because it was easy to disable, but because it made a lot of basic tasks (like accessing a floppy disk or a CD-ROM) nearly impossible.

As a result, when I made a boot floppy that could automatically "patch" any of those computers so that Fortres couldn't run (and thus the computer would work like a standard Windows 98 PC), a lot of teachers were actually quite happy to have it.  The school's IT guy wasn't so happy, but he didn't freak out over it.
 
2013-02-25 04:13:32 PM  
The Chin011001 \11e 011000\10e w0110 1001nning. 01 001.1000010w0011 only a m01100.1^]00e011100 10 of time0010 1110
 
2013-02-25 04:13:59 PM  

PainInTheASP: ProfessorOhki: itstehpope: torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.

I'd go with dolt myself.  Too many people claim to know all about hackers and whatnot but have no idea why I giggle when someone has a voice vlan of 2600...

I know a ton about hackers, man; I even watched that one documentary that had a young Angelina Jolie.

Pfft, go back to defacing your desktop wallpaper, n00b.  Everyone knows that the only true hacker movie is Swordfish.

/Now run home to mommy before I go in over the phone lines, pop the firewall, drop in the hydra and wait for your money to start rolling in.


Oh noes, not a 'fire sale.' Quick, get Bruce Willis on the line!
 
2013-02-25 04:14:20 PM  
Whoa....that was interesting...lets try that without fark's auto coding.


The Chin01100 1 \11e 011000\10e w0110 1001nning. 01 001.1000010w0011 only a m01100.1^]00e011100 10 of time0010 1110
 
2013-02-25 04:15:54 PM  

torusXL: EvilEgg: There is no such thing as an "innocent" hacker.  Hacking is illegal, unless you are doing it for the government.  This is true about many aspects of warfare.

Can't tell if trolling or pathetic dolt.


Whatever happened to GaryPDX?
 
2013-02-25 04:16:10 PM  
54 68 65 20 43 68 69 6e 65 73 65 20 61 72 65 20 77 69 6e 6e 69 6e 67 2e 20 20 49 74 27 73 20 6f 6e 6c 79 20 61 20 6d 61 74 74 65 72 20 6f 66 20 74 69 6d 65 2e
 
2013-02-25 04:18:38 PM  
My GIS foo is weak today, I can't conjure up pic of Steve Dallas in the holding cell with the little twerps.

(Oliver Wendell Jones.jpg)
 
2013-02-25 04:19:36 PM  

dragyne:  Hopefully this serves as a wake up call.


I'm gonna go out on a limb and say it won't.
 
2013-02-25 04:22:01 PM  
This is because most intelligent creative people don't want to work in the imperial security apparatus and those who do can't pass a security clearance investigation and the rest are just half smart authoritarian followers.
 
2013-02-25 04:23:27 PM  

dragyne: The cries of "How dare he mess with a highly sensitive system"  always seem funny to me.   Mainly because people like to criminalize people who "do things" to their "stuff".       And they want to be able to see these "bad people" so they can be bought to justice.

People like to use the "If a door is locked and you open it its a crime, it should be the same for a computer"  argument. The one thing people fail to realize is that the lock on your door has had hundreds of years to reach a point where it is considered a strong measure of security.

Is it a crime?  To the letter of the law, yes.   However, we have been missing out on these chances to improve and improvise because we believe ourselves to have nothing left to learn and nothing to improve upon.     Instead everything is a knee jerk reaction to maintain the status quo in the name of safety as if we feel that we have innovated enough.  So now you have these hackers outside the US... mostly untouchable, who have been able to innovate and continue to grow and they have gotten very very good.    Hopefully this serves as a wake up call.


Assuming you were to report the vulnerability as soon as you find it, I think a better analogy is that it's like telling your neighbors that they left the key to their front door in the lock.  Most people recognize that as being a good neighbor, and don't immediately assume some sort of criminal intent.  It shouldn't be any different with reporting computer security flaws.
 
2013-02-25 04:29:24 PM  

Vast and Trunkless: I know! Why don't we get a bunch of technically illiterate lawyers to reform the legal code!

And since they're technically illiterate, maybe we could have thm be informed by whatever interest groups have enough money to hire someone to inform them on all the important matters! Maybe even draft some legislation for them! What could possibly go wrong?


Zoe Lofgren's been working with actual competent technical people on overhauling the CFAA. It's probably still open for comments.
 
2013-02-25 04:29:30 PM  
As someone who recently hacked a hot plate to make a temperature-controlled smoker, getting a kick, etc.

/don't ask to look t any of my code, it's pretty hacky
 
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