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(Gothamist)   This is how you troll when you're setting up an undercover operation to fine bars for selling liquor to minors. Make sure your 19-year-old operative looks like he's 35   (gothamist.com) divider line 98
    More: Asinine, Mad Dog, John Jay  
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38440 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 3:48 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-25 03:54:06 PM  
13 votes:
I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?
2013-02-25 03:52:53 PM  
12 votes:
Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.
2013-02-25 03:59:17 PM  
8 votes:

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?



Personally, I blame M.A.D.D.
2013-02-25 03:50:24 PM  
7 votes:
this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?
2013-02-25 03:59:50 PM  
6 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


grassroots.groupon.com
2013-02-25 03:55:02 PM  
5 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because we're stupid.
2013-02-25 03:53:43 PM  
5 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


because states want highway money
2013-02-25 03:52:16 PM  
5 votes:
Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?
2013-02-25 03:51:59 PM  
5 votes:
This is all for the $ecurity of our youth.
2013-02-25 04:46:16 PM  
4 votes:
Look on the bright side.  Obviously all crime has been eradicated and they now have nothing better to do than entrap beer joints.  I feel safe.  When the other shoe drops and they just start taking money from people at gunpoint cause "hey, we're the law" I hope you're friends with a gun nut.
2013-02-25 04:19:09 PM  
4 votes:
The 19 year olds who pose for these operations need the shiat beat out of them.
2013-02-25 04:07:19 PM  
4 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.

So when it's considered bad, people will drink it like it's naughty. Then they act naughty, and alcohol get's an even worse reputation. It's a vicious cycle.

Here's an interesting article on the cultural aspects of binge drinking:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/15/100215fa_fact_gladwell
2013-02-25 04:01:27 PM  
4 votes:

the_sidewinder: y is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


When I was 17 the drinking age was 18 a legacy of Vietnam.  Just before I turned 18 they bumped it to 19 to keep older high school seniors from buy for younger high schoolers.  When I was 19 they moved it to 20 because neighboring states were 20 and we didn't want kids driving long distances for booze.  The just a week before I turned twenty they bumped it to 21 because Ronny Raygun wouldn't give any state with a drinking age under 21 any federal highway dollars.

At 18 you can be drafted, get married, serve on a capital jury, enter into contracts and have kids but you can't have a beer because you aren't mature enough.
2013-02-25 03:57:47 PM  
4 votes:

meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.


They should change the law to say 18 + high school diploma = legal to drink.
2013-02-25 03:53:03 PM  
4 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because Jesus
2013-02-25 04:41:16 PM  
3 votes:

ringersol: Because we can't get from A to B without driving.


But you can get from A to B without drinking and driving. Also you can get a public intoxication charge from walking from A to B with a BAC >.08, or just having an open beer in public can get you cited.

Can we stop pretending it's about safety?
2013-02-25 04:33:34 PM  
3 votes:

lordjupiter: Because drinking impairs your ability to do most of those things


But when you're impaired in this fashion, you're still supposed to become suddenly unimpaired when it comes time to decide whether or not to drive.

/Never understood that
//If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to decide whether or not to drive...
///Arbitrary BAC is arbitrary.
2013-02-25 04:09:04 PM  
3 votes:
Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.
2013-02-25 04:07:01 PM  
3 votes:
When I was 17, I drank a very good beer.
I drank a very good beer that I purchased with a fake Id.
My name was brian McGee,  I stayed up listening to queen
*sobs* when I was 17,.*sobs*
kab
2013-02-25 03:58:30 PM  
3 votes:

kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Anyone posted an answer to this yet?


Yes:

scottydoesntknow: Because Jesus


And that's as good of an answer as you'll get on the subject.
2013-02-25 03:56:56 PM  
3 votes:

mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.
2013-02-25 03:51:51 PM  
3 votes:
Hence why most stores around here use under 40 as the metric.

/31 days.
2013-02-26 08:03:08 AM  
2 votes:
Additionally, a lot of these "sting" or shakedown operations have ulterior motives behind them.  I've seen ex-employees and ex-customers make bogus complaints and get regulators to rake businesses over the coals.

Sometimes it's local politics.  These systems are often corrupt, with the license sponsor demanding free services or goods.  Sometimes a business is unwanted by local power players (as is often the case in college towns) and establishments are targeted with questionable tactics as a result.

And it's not like some obvious kid walks into these places during a slow period and asks for a beer in a squeaky voice.  Many of these agents do the best they can to appear well beyond the questionable range of age, and they do it during busy periods when staff are likely to be distracted and tired.

Which is one reason the speed trap analogy applies.  You don't drive down the road constantly alert and reading every single sign you go by, processing all the information in full.  You don't constantly scan the horizon for speed limit signs while also somehow keeping track of traffic and whatever else is going on.  You go with traffic and do the best you can to obey the law within limits and reason.  Just like deceptive speed limit signs that create a major change in legal speed, intentionally trying to induce businesses to serve minors with massively deceptive looks and behaviors focuses on penalizing people who may not have otherwise been looking to break the law, ....and it may not just be about what's right and wrong, or even legal.
2013-02-25 08:42:07 PM  
2 votes:

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Probably because most of the people who suggest that IDs should be displayed to vote also, in the same breath, suggest that IDs should be very difficult to get in the first place by cutting DMV hours at some offices, closing others and prohibiting DMV employees from telling very poor applicants that they can get a non-driver's ID for free if they can't afford to pay the $28 fee.

Or they make some IDs more equal than others by explicitly prohibiting the use of college IDs for voting purposes while allowing gun permits to be used.

And then there's the fact that it's a solution in search of a problem, since there have been fewer than 20 cases of voter fraud over the past decade (in a country with over 100,000,000 voters) which could have been prevented through the implementation of voter ID laws -- and most of them have been GOP operatives actively trying to commit voter fraud for the sake of proving the "problem" exists, just so that the voter ID laws can be passed to put another hoop for college students and the working poor to jump through.
2013-02-25 06:53:47 PM  
2 votes:

lack of warmth: tgambitg: lack of warmth: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age

or something to that effect.

Interesting point, although the children, all ages, of personnel military are issued military ID's in order to go to the PX, go to the military hospitals and an absolute must when overseas.  Nice try, but that would be a huge problem.  My wife and her sisters had military ID's till my fil retired from the Navy.

Those clearly state that the bearer is a Military Dependent, not actually in the military.

I am sure, however if you read his statement it would include any person carrying a military ID, regardless of age.  My wife got hers at birth and had a valid military issued ID for the first 19 years of her life.  I don't have a problem with military personnel having alcohol since the military is a good place to get beer once you get past boot camp.  Drinking in the military is a tradition that I know my dad partook.  He told me once, while operating in a war game in late 1960's Germany, he drove his armored recon vehicle to a village for a beer run.  I have yet to meet a vet (including those who served after 2006) without a drinking story.  Underage drinking is probably more rampant in the military than colleges.  I was just giving ThatGuy a hard time for giving such an open statement.


IMHO, if you can die for your country, you should be able to legally drink in it.
2013-02-25 05:04:48 PM  
2 votes:

carmody: Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.


In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and influenced by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds.

Lautenberg is considered one of the Senate's most liberalmembers. He is pro-choice, supports gun control, has introduced many bills increasing penalties for car jacking and car theft, and criticized the Bush Administration on National Security issues. He has been heavily involved in various anti-smoking and airline safety legislation. He also has co-sponsored legislation to increase drunk driving penalties.
2013-02-25 04:55:05 PM  
2 votes:

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


At 18 you can own a home and have people come over with alcohol, and you aren't allowed to have any.
2013-02-25 04:45:37 PM  
2 votes:

Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.
2013-02-25 04:34:50 PM  
2 votes:

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


While I get the heightened overall risk of DUIs, I feel like it somehow fits into what people are saying here. Getting a DUI in the United States is like have a farking murder rap. I don't have one, but man, it absolutely murders you financially and personally while completely removing your ability to work in certain factions of work forever.

I have no idea how to fix this considering, but blowing a 0.09 while driving home is basically a huge check cut to the city and state.

/Don't have DUI
//EVERYONE in LA does though
2013-02-25 04:25:17 PM  
2 votes:
1020 was fined $1,500 as a result of the sting...

They're lucky. Here in Utah, they would have been slapped with a minimum 30-day suspension of their liquor license, with no real recourse to appeal the decision. Actually, I think they get penalized for appealing by suffering a longer suspension if they appeal and fail. These places have to close their doors for this time, and people can get laid off or have to go the whole time with no check. Sometimes, they find other jobs, and then the bar is forced to find a bunch of new employees and train them.

This kind of underhanded bullshiat is just that, bullshiat. The kind of stuf they like to pull here, just to name a couple off the top of my head?

Wait until the crowd near the door is huge, stuff a beer in their jacket, and sneak through the crowd, out the door.

Arrive as a party of 4, give their drink order, wait until the drinks are about to arrive, send 2 of the people to the bathroom, and then cite the place for over-serving since the waitress is dropping off drinks for 4 to a table of 2, regardless of how many originally ordered.

Gotta love this kind of shiat.
2013-02-25 04:24:28 PM  
2 votes:

Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.
2013-02-25 04:20:00 PM  
2 votes:
It's a crime to buy underage not just serve. Cops should just send in a girl that looks 18 but is 21. Then you know if the bar is carding and aren't pushing a crime.

I'd argue the 21 age pushed drinking out of regulated bars and caused more problems for younger people.
2013-02-25 04:13:48 PM  
2 votes:

scottydoesntknow: Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.


Fairfax county police did that here in VA.  Sat in a busy bar and busted two types of people:
1.  Consumed more than 3-4 drinks in one hour time
2.  People walking from the bar to the cab waiting for them 12' from the front door of the restaurant

Did not matter if you had a safe ride home...Anyone who blew a .08 or more was given a public intoxication ticket, I think some people went to the drunk tank.

Buncha horseshiat and waste of county dollars and resources.
2013-02-25 04:10:30 PM  
2 votes:

scottydoesntknow: mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.


Military fatigues, no. Anyone could buy those.  But having spoken to many bartenders in NYC, if you come in your uniform you are absolutely served even if you are obviously 18 or 19.
2013-02-25 04:09:53 PM  
2 votes:
This happened at our restaurant, except we passed the test.  We got word that the VA ABC in Loudoun County were conducting stings.  I was managing at the time, and instructed my staff to literally card everyone, even if they come in with a walker and their hair is as grey as can be...

The person they sent in was over 6' tall, 230lbs, deep voice, gritty clothes, facial hair (almost epic beard)...he looked like a blue collar workin' man.

Every single waiter and bartender said they would have served him without carding him.  Stupid "gotcha" enforcement techniques...
2013-02-25 04:05:33 PM  
2 votes:
As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?
2013-02-25 04:03:39 PM  
2 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act#Histo ry

"In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator  (D-NJ) and influenced by  (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds."

So, a Democrat and M.A.D.D. threatening to take money away are to blame (though I would like to see the voting record for that legislation, my google-fu is lacking)
2013-02-25 04:03:35 PM  
2 votes:

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


Makes me think of dry counties.

"We don't want people drinking and driving, so we made it illegal to sell alcohol. You'll have to drive to another county to get your booze."

It's like they didn't think their plan through.
2013-02-25 04:01:59 PM  
2 votes:

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Because drinking impairs your ability to do most of those things, and honestly most 20-somethings are about as responsible with their drinking as 18 year olds.   I don't think people really get their shiat together until 25-40 when the metabolism and body/brain development slows, and you can't just go out and get roaring drunk all night long (only to call in with "food poisoning" the next day, which nobody believes as your excuse because we've all farking done it and we know you were out scamming).
2013-02-25 03:59:03 PM  
2 votes:
If I were selling liquor I'd check ID for everyone.  I don't care if you looked like Abe Vigoda; you are not getting anything from me until I see ID.
2013-02-25 03:58:58 PM  
2 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because CDC FACTS (whose outcomes may have been influenced by outside monies, but pay no attention to that, plebian).
2013-02-25 03:58:21 PM  
2 votes:
The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.
kab
2013-02-25 03:56:43 PM  
2 votes:
This same sort of thing gets used in prostitution stings pretty frequently.. so..

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.


Gotta collect that sweet fine money.
2013-02-25 03:52:36 PM  
2 votes:
That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.
2013-02-25 03:51:47 PM  
2 votes:
At a certain point this is bound to happen, your impulse to check an ID really only kicks on when you see someone who looks young. Christ, why didn't they just get someone who ages in reverse to get this place busted?
2013-02-26 08:35:03 AM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: So you've never run a business that had to deal with this, but you think you know the ins and outs?


Not all of the ins and outs, but this one Asian girl that sold me beer clued me in when she saw my ID said I was in my 30s and she apologized ("I sorry, I been to jail before").

How much do you need to know to sell booze? She learned that you should ask for ID, Apparently she didn't like being arrested and wanted to avoid it in the future.

You and the other guy have repeatedly missed the point.

I don't think I've missed the point at all.

I think I've got the point completely. When in doubt - even if it's not reasonable doubt. If there's even a chance, card them. Is it really a major hassle to pull out your ID? Shiat - I saw some chick at the liquor store pull out a passport the other day. Really? She carries her passport with her and doesn't have a driver's license. Whatever.

It didn't seem to be too much of a burden on her. She waved it in front of the clerks face for 2 seconds and he completed the transaction.

I would have carded her too. She looked 21, but hell she might have been 30 - or 16. I couldn't tell for sure. Hence the request by the store's clerk to see an ID.

  What is your standard for how old someone LOOKS?

What part of "saggy tits, grey hair or wrinkled skin" do you not understand?

lordjupiter: Is the law designed to discourage businesses from selling to minors?


Yes, it is. You could go the Hooter's route. I'm not sure if it was just that one Hooter's or if it's corporate policy, but like I said they had a sign that said "We even carded George Burns".

Do you know who that is? He was making jokes about how old he was back in the 1950s and he died in 1996. He was 100 years old when he died.

How else are they going to enforce the law? You think kids who get sold alcohol are going to report it to the police? Should they wait until some kid drinks too much and does something stupid resulting in death or serious injury?

I even remember seeing signs in some liquor stores saying the clerk might be an undercover cop. Yeah, it's serious shiat. Chances are it wasn't an undercover cop but you'd better not show a fake ID.
Look, you can biatch and moan and even seriously debate whether or not 21 is the appropriate age to be allowed to buy alcohol, but that is what the law says right now and as such law enforcement is going to try to enforce that law. And they should. Cops are not legislators. Got that? Cops don't write the laws.

Things were different when I was 18. If I got carded at one store I could go to another one. It really never took me more than 3 tries to buy alcohol when I was in high school, but it was illegal. From what I can tell it's much more difficult today and that's partly because of sting operations like this.
I think the hard part about running a liquor store would be logistics. What do I order and how much of it do I order and when do I order it? I'd tell my cashiers to card everyone unless they're obviously older than their grandmother.

Carding people would be easy. Just do it.
HBK
2013-02-26 02:41:14 AM  
1 votes:

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: The 19 year olds who pose for these operations need the shiat beat out of them.


CSB:

When I was a 17/18 year old high school senior, I was in the journalism class. My school had a pretty legitimate newspaper, so it wasn't only fluff pieces and sports- although there was a lot of that. The teacher pulled me aside one day and said "so, you know where to get beer and liquor around here... will you write a story about the places that sell to students?"

I refused, "if I expose the places that sell, then where will we buy our drinks?"

The asshole teacher even went as far as to threaten me with a D if I didn't write the piece. Luckily the school stepped in and I was moved out of that class.

That was when I realized that adults were not to be trusted and that refusing to be a snitch was worth a bad grade in a stupid high school class.
2013-02-26 02:29:15 AM  
1 votes:
When I was a junior / senior in high school I used to get booze by not shaving for a couple of days, and hitting the liquor stores dressed in a jacket, slacks, slightly wrinkled long sleeve shirt, and wearing a tie pulled loose / top button undone. I'd hit a store close to downtown business district at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon. I'd carry my money in a money clip so if asked for ID I could say, "Sh*t, it's in my checkbook."

/Worked like a charm; only three or four times did I ever have to try a second store.
2013-02-25 10:48:18 PM  
1 votes:

King Something: Probably because most of the people who suggest that IDs should be displayed to vote also, in the same breath, suggest that IDs should be very difficult to get in the first place by cutting DMV hours at some offices, closing others and prohibiting DMV employees from telling very poor applicants that they can get a non-driver's ID for free if they can't afford to pay the $28 fee.

Or they make some IDs more equal than others by explicitly prohibiting the use of college IDs for voting purposes while allowing gun permits to be used.

And then there's the fact that it's a solution in search of a problem, since there have been fewer than 20 cases of voter fraud over the past decade (in a country with over 100,000,000 voters) which could have been prevented through the implementation of voter ID laws -- and most of them have been GOP operatives actively trying to commit voter fraud for the sake of proving the "problem" exists, just so that the voter ID laws can be passed to put another hoop for college students and the working poor to jump through.


I'm all for identity verification when voting. I'm also in favor of free IDs that are legal for identification purposes (like a non-DL ID card). Anything that has photo and name that is issued by a certified authority is ok by me. Make sure these IDs are easy to get and low cost with free alternatives. Also, IDs checked for all alcohol purchases. IDs ran for gun purchases. Basically make sure they aren't barred from having a gun and that's it. I'm also for Shall-Issue CCW permits. Pretty much freedom unless you've proven you can't handle it. Commit a violent act, you lose the right to own violent weapons. I'd also like to see better mental health care, as well as better medical care in this country. Single payer is okay by me as long as it's set up correctly. ('Obamacare' was a shiatty try), I jive that with the government providing for the general welfare of the nation. That's constitutional authority.
2013-02-25 07:41:32 PM  
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because Jesus


Jesus drank younger than 21. He didn't do anything to mess it up for the rest of us, either. People were drinking at younger ages only a century or so ago. Might as well blame Woodrow Wilson.

/I blame Woodrow Wilson.
2013-02-25 07:32:49 PM  
1 votes:

PsiChick: mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday

Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.

/Doesn't mean we're doing it  right, but there is a biologically good reason.
//Now, more effective would be to stop farking romanticizing alcohol and let kids learn to drink with parental supervision like in Europe...


Hate to tell ya sweet cheeks, but improperly handled guns and automobiles most certainly do have lethal effects...and most states give automobiles to idiots as young as 16. FL used to give them to idiots as young as 14. Might wanna back up and check your facts. Out of 8 things listed, half can be lethal but usually are not when used/done properly: guns, cars, alcohol, and serving your country.

That would be why I have you highlighted in bright red. Take advice (Incorrectly) attributed to Mark Twain:  http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/
2013-02-25 07:27:46 PM  
1 votes:
Damn narcs!
2013-02-25 07:23:34 PM  
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.

Heh, I got an attendant chewed out one time by her manager. She was this young attendant who insisted I take my I.D. out every time so they can swipe to "verify" it's real. Every attendant there knew me and knew I was 25 (26 now). I played along for a couple weeks as she was new, but after a while I knew she knew who I was because she would laugh and just point at her little "We I.D under 35" sign as soon as I came in. Her manager was there one day and said:
"Do you make him take his license out every time?"
"...yes."
"Stop doing that! I know he looks 16, but you KNOW he's over 18, so stop harassing him because eventually he'll stop coming in."

She stopped doing it after that.


Had a place in TX did that to me: wouldn't accept my military ID because it didn't have a magnetic stripe and couldn't be scanned (mine's the orange one because I'm a disabled vet. We get the "you're a broke-ass soldier so fark you, you don't get the shiny new ones" old style dependent IDs, even though they list us as the sponsor and an INDEF expiry date). TX law states they have to take it, but they refused. So after they told me they weren't going to take it & I needed a TX driver's license for them to sell me smokes and I told them that TX law states otherwise and they told me not to tell them what they had to do, I went ahead and let the TX attorney general tell them instead. Jackasses.
2013-02-25 07:07:57 PM  
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because Jesus


Because motor vehicle accidents, actually. It's a highway funds thing. In KS, anyone can drink malt beverages if a parent or legal guardian is present and in WI, anyone can drink if parents or legal guardians are present--you just can't buy it. (Note--fair to assume that parent/legal guardian means your own)

The rule in my house was, "If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to drink if you want to," and so those of us who were in the military were allowed to drink whatever we wanted, wherever we wanted among family. Once, when home on leave at 19, the manager of the restaurant we were in (my parents were regulars) shouted across the bar asking me if I wanted a beer--the restaurant owners were of the same opinion.

It's a ridiculous law in this day and age, especially with the DUI laws that we have. Simply disallow deferred prosecutions and garnish wages for DUI fines. Between the "sin" taxes and DUI fines, the state road budgets would probably come out ahead and the Feds could cut some spending.
2013-02-25 06:59:14 PM  
1 votes:

ShadowWolf: All this and no ones commented on the shiatty photoshop picture?[gothamist.com image 640x341]


Yeah, look, they photoshopped a google street-view arrow onto it!
2013-02-25 06:48:27 PM  
1 votes:

darwinpolice: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Welcome to Obama's America.


media.rob.nu

/please tell me that should have had sarcasm tags...
2013-02-25 06:14:53 PM  
1 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because Prudes.
2013-02-25 06:09:42 PM  
1 votes:

That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: mightybaldking: I meant, who was the client. My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits. It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.

You would assume wrong. We own two liquor stores and have been subject to sting operations at least once a year by the TABC. We always get a nice letter saying we passed.

It's ok. We don't want to sell underage, sell to those intoxicated, or break any other law. We make a whole lot of money doing it legal.

And having been a teenager, raised teenagers, and lived among teenagers, we don't want waterhead eighteen-year-olds driving and drinking. And the fact that they can and do enlist in the military and die to make Dick Cheney rich just further shows their lapses in judgement.


Was the TABC sending in over 21 year old people that looked younger to see if you carded them? If not then you missed the point mightybaldking was making.
2013-02-25 05:36:41 PM  
1 votes:

Unoriginal_Username: Had a buddy in HS that was our go to guy for booze purchases. he was 16 went from clean shaven to full beard in day or two.


That was me when I was 16. I once got mistaken for a professor with a group of my peers at a Chinese restaurant. -They thought my friends were my students.

Weird thing though, I'm 34 now and if I shave off the beard, I get carded for alcohol, if I leave it on, I'm mistaken for mid-forties still.
2013-02-25 05:11:37 PM  
1 votes:

Reverend Monkeypants: Yes, thank you.  Of course, in a usual turn, most young libs are for lowering it and most non-libs think it should stay... I mean, in my personal experience


Most young liberals get all their information from the Daily Show and don't know that their own party is the one responsible for the creation of the legislation they are fighting against.

And actually you'd be surprised the number of conservative libertarians there are these days.
2013-02-25 05:07:48 PM  
1 votes:

Bullseyed: carmody: Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.

In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and influenced by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds.

Lautenberg is considered one of the Senate's most liberalmembers. He is pro-choice, supports gun control, has introduced many bills increasing penalties for car jacking and car theft, and criticized the Bush Administration on National Security issues. He has been heavily involved in various anti-smoking and airline safety legislation. He also has co-sponsored legislation to increase drunk driving penalties.


Yes, thank you.  Of course, in a usual turn, most young libs are for lowering it and most non-libs think it should stay... I mean, in my personal experience
2013-02-25 04:57:29 PM  
1 votes:

LeroyBourne: Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.


Most public school students can't do that level of math at age 18.
2013-02-25 04:56:41 PM  
1 votes:

louiedog: I was at a Walmart (only place open after 10 that's not a bar) buying beer with friends. Because two of us were each buying we thought it'd be faster to go to two lanes. We were talking back and forth and both women manning the checkouts made the whole party walk to each lane to show all IDs to both of them. I understand their policy and needing to ID the entire group, but the whole group needing to do it twice for two purchases? Ridiculous. Maybe they had cops like these around.


I walked in to a Tops at roughly the same time as 2 or 3 younger college kids. The cashier insisted I came in with friends and that they all had to show their IDs too. I told him to check the store and the parking lot, because I was the only person there. Still refused sale.

/Haven't shopped there since
//Was a Tops employee for 3 years
///Tops is barely managing to stay in business for a reason
2013-02-25 04:55:47 PM  
1 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because teenagers are stupid enough when they're sober.
2013-02-25 04:46:56 PM  
1 votes:

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


The difference is that cops are above the law. They don't have to worry about silly things like logic, rights and laws.
2013-02-25 04:44:14 PM  
1 votes:

MNguy: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Rat fink.  DIAF


Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.
2013-02-25 04:42:25 PM  
1 votes:

PsyLord: This could've all been avoided if they can check the person's age on some sort of official document or card that has his/her picture on it...  Someone go work on that ASAP.


Maybe they could make some kind of voter ID card. Then everyone over 18 would have to have one!
2013-02-25 04:39:42 PM  
1 votes:

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Rat fink.  DIAF
2013-02-25 04:39:00 PM  
1 votes:

kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Anyone posted an answer to this yet?


The age at which one is considered a legal adult was 21 for centuries under English common law.  The drinking age was pegged to that standard originally.

Then FDR lowered the minimum conscription age from 21 to 18.  During Viet Nam, kids secured the right to vote at 18 because they could die for their country.  Other adult rights, including drinking, followed suit.  (The draft brought us the blessing of teenaged strippers!)

Drinking-related deaths rose among 18-20 year olds, so the feds forced the age back up to 21.

2013-02-25 04:35:28 PM  
1 votes:
the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?
2013-02-25 04:32:21 PM  
1 votes:

fredklein: I read (linked from here on Fark, I think) an interesting article describing their activities over the years. Like getting the DUI laws changed from 'if your driving is adversely affected by booze...' to 'if your BAC is over a certain amount, no matter how well you may be driving', then lobbying to lower that amount. And other dirty little tricks. All in the name of 'for the children'.


When the founder of your organization leaves because she thinks it's becomign extremist, you know it's a bad organization. It became less about preventing drunk driving, and more about instituting a new form of prohibition
2013-02-25 04:32:17 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


so ban all alcohol?  Or does bad driving only occur when you drink and drive if you're less than 21?
2013-02-25 04:31:03 PM  
1 votes:

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


One is a right. One isn't. We done here?
2013-02-25 04:30:50 PM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?


The problem here is that the law says: It's illegal to serve anyone under 21.    There's no law that says you need to id. And there's no law that says if you do ... then your clear.  You just can't serve anyone under 21.  In some jurisdictions, you can ask for id, and be shown (high quality fake) id, serve the beer and be charged.  You can serve someone who looks 12, but if they turn out to be over 21, then no foul.   Some jurisdictions make allowances for fake ID.  If you exercise due diligence, and slip up, then no penalty.    Others don't.

Now, in a fair world, there would be the usual exception, the good old "known or ought to have known".  Also known as the "You can't be willfully blind!" rule.
2013-02-25 04:30:18 PM  
1 votes:

justanotherfarkinfarker: Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.


Yup, safer cars, stricter driving standards/tests and training.

The biggest hurdle the US is going to face in lowering the drinking age back to 18 is getting rid of the novelty factor of it all.  As a culture, we glamorize alcohol and treat as taboo, which adds to its appeal.  I would argue that we are going to face similar issues in decriminalizing marijuana, use will go up, some accidents will happen...but that is another topic for another thread...
2013-02-25 04:27:32 PM  
1 votes:

HellRaisingHoosier: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Personally, I blame M.A.D.D.


Yup.

I read (linked from here on Fark, I think) an interesting article describing their activities over the years. Like getting the DUI laws changed from 'if your driving is adversely affected by booze...' to 'if your BAC is over a certain amount, no matter how well you may be driving', then lobbying to lower that amount. And other dirty little tricks. All in the name of 'for the children'.
2013-02-25 04:24:55 PM  
1 votes:

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant. raise enough money in fines to give ourselves 20% raises"

I certainly feel safer.


I often say my first move as a "local government" level person of elected office (town supervisor) would be to fire half the cops. If they have time to radar anyone, then there is not enough crime to warrant their job existing.
2013-02-25 04:21:36 PM  
1 votes:

Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.


Wegmans (everyone's favorite grocery store in the Northeast) has a 100% ID policy for alcohol. Everyone must present their ID regardless of age. It's just easier that way and I don't blame them.
2013-02-25 04:16:22 PM  
1 votes:
cgraves67: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.


When I was in college the rule was you could drink what you wanted, smoke what you wanted and sleep with who you wanted just don't fluent it.  We would regularly by beer on Friday and sit around and talk or go to a party on one of the other floors.  Some one would over do it and get sick but the rest of us were there to help.  This is how I learned to handle my liquor.

After I graduated I was visiting an old roommate who was working as an RA and they had just had an death from alcohol poisoning.  This is something we never heard of and I went to school.  My old roommate told me that instead of having a few beers or play quarters students would drink in private.  Being caught this booze got you kicked you of housing - big deal in Boston.  This didn't stop the drinking it drove it underground.  Buy a pint of a fifth, chug it some where discreet and then party.
2013-02-25 04:15:47 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs: Katolu: Bought my first case of beer when I was 14.


/can

Stole my first case of beer when I was 12.  I win!



Got a adult man with poor judgement to buy Jack Daniels for me and my best friend when I was 11. After ditching church. We got drunk with 3 kids who were out of training school and got booze from the same guy. Best friend puked on the pastors wife. We were the topic of the sermon the next week.

I win!
2013-02-25 04:14:15 PM  
1 votes:

downstairs: They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.


If the bar ONLY sold alcohol, maybe... but you can order a coke or pepsi or glass of water.  To me, it's entrapment.
2013-02-25 04:11:07 PM  
1 votes:

treesloth: If they send someone that gives the appearance of being over 30, they are creating a substantial risk of inducing a person to serve alcohol to an illegal recipient. The act of requesting the drink would, I suppose, constitute "active inducement or encouragement". The physical intimidation factor might play in, but I'd think a bartender would meet a varied enough group to make that not a big inducement.


They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.

I still think its all stupid... just throwing that out there.
2013-02-25 04:10:10 PM  
1 votes:

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.



Ever kill someone because you voted?
2013-02-25 04:08:09 PM  
1 votes:

Igor Jakovsky: My brother got busted when he was working the front desk at a hotel and the cops sent in a 16 year old to buy cigarettes out of the vending machine in the lobby. My bro didnt even sell the kid the cigarettes. Then the cops tried to recruit him to be the one trying to buy the cigarettes in exchange for dropping the fine. My bro basically told them to fark off out of principle.


They've been doing this crap down here... busting bartenders for letting a minor buy cigs from a machine.  Totally stupid.
2013-02-25 04:07:32 PM  
1 votes:
I know this term gets misused a lot, so I'm not saying this lightly... I think there might be a case for entrapment here.  From the NY State Code:

In any prosecution for an offense, it is an affirmative defense that the defendant engaged in the proscribed conduct because he was induced or encouraged to do so by a public servant, or by a person acting in cooperation with a public servant, seeking to obtain evidence against him for purpose of criminal prosecution, and when the methods used to obtain such evidence were such as to create a substantial risk that the offense would be committed by a person not otherwise disposed to commit it. Inducement or encouragement to commit an offense means active inducement or encouragement. Conduct merely affording a person an opportunity to commit an offense does not constitute entrapment.

If they send someone that gives the appearance of being over 30, they are creating a substantial risk of inducing a person to serve alcohol to an illegal recipient.  The act of requesting the drink would, I suppose, constitute "active inducement or encouragement".  The physical intimidation factor might play in, but I'd think a bartender would meet a varied enough group to make that not a big inducement.
2013-02-25 04:06:30 PM  
1 votes:

carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.


My brother got busted when he was working the front desk at a hotel and the cops sent in a 16 year old to buy cigarettes out of the vending machine in the lobby. My bro didnt even sell the kid the cigarettes. Then the cops tried to recruit him to be the one trying to buy the cigarettes in exchange for dropping the fine. My bro basically told them to fark off out of principle.
2013-02-25 04:04:35 PM  
1 votes:

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Because marijuana.
/Also, did I miss pic of the "kid"?

What a minor who looks aged might look like ...
2013-02-25 04:04:30 PM  
1 votes:

scottydoesntknow: mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.


I still bartend part time and am a hard carding motherfarker.

Now nobody is going to come into my place a business in fatigues: but if they obviously look active duty and start pulling out a military ID, I tell them to put it away. I'm limited with what my corporate overlords will permit but as long as the soldier stays in control, their pours are strong and they'll get a few free beers.
2013-02-25 04:04:09 PM  
1 votes:
With make-up the way it is these days, you'd think some clever teens would go 'old man.' We didn't have fancy fake ID's when I was young so I had to get an older friends to hook me up, or (if they weren't around) hang out and troll the liquor store parking lot for people willing to do that, for a huge fee of course.
2013-02-25 04:01:36 PM  
1 votes:
Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Answer
2013-02-25 04:00:05 PM  
1 votes:
Dunno about that state, but in Texas it's farking confusing:

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement/age_verification.asp

Texas state law does not require that a person over 21 provide any identification to purchase alcohol in Texas. There is nothing in the law that declares specific forms of ID as "valid" for an alcohol purchase.

However, a person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does NOT commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid proof of identification that:

contains a physical description and photograph consistent with the minor's appearance;purports to establish that the minor is 21 years of age or older; andwas issued by a governmental agency.
The proof of identification may include a driver's license issued by any state, a U.S. passport, a military identification card or any other ID issued by a state or the federal government.

For that reason, since store clerks, wait staff, and bartenders can be held criminally liable for selling alcohol to a minor, they often require a photo ID issued by a governmental agency, to prove that the person really is 21.

A store, bar or restaurant  might or might not sell alcohol to a person with an expired driver's license, a foreign passport or other ID.  What's acceptable in any establishment is a matter of that establishment's private business policies.

If the patron is obviously over 21, the establishment may not require any ID at all.
2013-02-25 03:59:22 PM  
1 votes:

meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.


It was 18 when I was in high school.  Don't recall anyone ever getting busted for being drunk in class.  Hell, we never even went to class high.  Saved that shiat for after school and weekends.
2013-02-25 03:58:15 PM  
1 votes:

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


because 22 year olds dont drink and drive.
2013-02-25 03:57:54 PM  
1 votes:
You really never know.  I just saw a picture of my wife's ex when he was in high school: balding and honestly looked mid thirties.  Some people have city miles.

Then there's my co-worker who is 32 with a husband and a kid and could easily pass for 18-19.

/no, I'm not uploading pics of said hot co-worker.  Would be creepy.
2013-02-25 03:56:37 PM  
1 votes:
I used to spend many nights a week in that sh*thole.  Used to love the crowd but they seemed to grow younger faster than I grew older.  Still stop by to see the Tims and some of the regulars, but I'm not surprised they got busted.  That place is crawling with high school kids.
2013-02-25 03:55:55 PM  
1 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.
2013-02-25 03:55:47 PM  
1 votes:

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?
2013-02-25 03:54:20 PM  
1 votes:

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.


Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.
 
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