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(Gothamist)   This is how you troll when you're setting up an undercover operation to fine bars for selling liquor to minors. Make sure your 19-year-old operative looks like he's 35   (gothamist.com) divider line 309
    More: Asinine, Mad Dog, John Jay  
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38421 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 3:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-25 04:30:18 PM

justanotherfarkinfarker: Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.


Yup, safer cars, stricter driving standards/tests and training.

The biggest hurdle the US is going to face in lowering the drinking age back to 18 is getting rid of the novelty factor of it all.  As a culture, we glamorize alcohol and treat as taboo, which adds to its appeal.  I would argue that we are going to face similar issues in decriminalizing marijuana, use will go up, some accidents will happen...but that is another topic for another thread...
 
2013-02-25 04:30:50 PM

lordjupiter: As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?


The problem here is that the law says: It's illegal to serve anyone under 21.    There's no law that says you need to id. And there's no law that says if you do ... then your clear.  You just can't serve anyone under 21.  In some jurisdictions, you can ask for id, and be shown (high quality fake) id, serve the beer and be charged.  You can serve someone who looks 12, but if they turn out to be over 21, then no foul.   Some jurisdictions make allowances for fake ID.  If you exercise due diligence, and slip up, then no penalty.    Others don't.

Now, in a fair world, there would be the usual exception, the good old "known or ought to have known".  Also known as the "You can't be willfully blind!" rule.
 
2013-02-25 04:31:03 PM

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


One is a right. One isn't. We done here?
 
2013-02-25 04:32:17 PM

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


so ban all alcohol?  Or does bad driving only occur when you drink and drive if you're less than 21?
 
2013-02-25 04:32:21 PM

fredklein: I read (linked from here on Fark, I think) an interesting article describing their activities over the years. Like getting the DUI laws changed from 'if your driving is adversely affected by booze...' to 'if your BAC is over a certain amount, no matter how well you may be driving', then lobbying to lower that amount. And other dirty little tricks. All in the name of 'for the children'.


When the founder of your organization leaves because she thinks it's becomign extremist, you know it's a bad organization. It became less about preventing drunk driving, and more about instituting a new form of prohibition
 
2013-02-25 04:33:34 PM

lordjupiter: Because drinking impairs your ability to do most of those things


But when you're impaired in this fashion, you're still supposed to become suddenly unimpaired when it comes time to decide whether or not to drive.

/Never understood that
//If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to decide whether or not to drive...
///Arbitrary BAC is arbitrary.
 
2013-02-25 04:34:14 PM

Mikey1969: 1020 was fined $1,500 as a result of the sting...

They're lucky. Here in Utah, they would have been slapped with a minimum 30-day suspension of their liquor license, with no real recourse to appeal the decision. Actually, I think they get penalized for appealing by suffering a longer suspension if they appeal and fail. These places have to close their doors for this time, and people can get laid off or have to go the whole time with no check. Sometimes, they find other jobs, and then the bar is forced to find a bunch of new employees and train them.

This kind of underhanded bullshiat is just that, bullshiat. The kind of stuf they like to pull here, just to name a couple off the top of my head?

Wait until the crowd near the door is huge, stuff a beer in their jacket, and sneak through the crowd, out the door.

Arrive as a party of 4, give their drink order, wait until the drinks are about to arrive, send 2 of the people to the bathroom, and then cite the place for over-serving since the waitress is dropping off drinks for 4 to a table of 2, regardless of how many originally ordered.

Gotta love this kind of shiat.


WHOA whoa whoa whoa WHOA! If I'm in Utah, I can't order myself 2 beers?
 
2013-02-25 04:34:50 PM

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


While I get the heightened overall risk of DUIs, I feel like it somehow fits into what people are saying here. Getting a DUI in the United States is like have a farking murder rap. I don't have one, but man, it absolutely murders you financially and personally while completely removing your ability to work in certain factions of work forever.

I have no idea how to fix this considering, but blowing a 0.09 while driving home is basically a huge check cut to the city and state.

/Don't have DUI
//EVERYONE in LA does though
 
2013-02-25 04:35:25 PM

Nickninja: You really never know.  I just saw a picture of my wife's ex when he was in high school: balding and honestly looked mid thirties.  Some people have city miles.

Then there's my co-worker who is 32 with a husband and a kid and could easily pass for 18-19.

/no, I'm not uploading pics of said hot co-worker.  Would be creepy.


No, what's creepy is you stalking around in her backyard, taking said pictures.  8)
 
2013-02-25 04:35:28 PM
the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?
 
2013-02-25 04:39:00 PM

kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Anyone posted an answer to this yet?


The age at which one is considered a legal adult was 21 for centuries under English common law.  The drinking age was pegged to that standard originally.

Then FDR lowered the minimum conscription age from 21 to 18.  During Viet Nam, kids secured the right to vote at 18 because they could die for their country.  Other adult rights, including drinking, followed suit.  (The draft brought us the blessing of teenaged strippers!)

Drinking-related deaths rose among 18-20 year olds, so the feds forced the age back up to 21.

 
2013-02-25 04:39:08 PM

ringersol: the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?


Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities.
 
2013-02-25 04:39:42 PM

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Rat fink.  DIAF
 
2013-02-25 04:39:49 PM

lordjupiter: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Ever kill someone because you voted?


In before:
- 9/11 was an inside job
-Iraq war was "illegal"
-Bush lied, kids died
 
2013-02-25 04:40:02 PM

carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.


There may be some rationale for the 21 years old age limit for alcohol, since being drunk can impair a person's ability to do things. But minimum age of 18 (or even 17) for porn? Minimum age should be, can the kid ejaculate? If he can fap and pop a nut, he's old enough to enjoy porn.

Then again, our modern wonders have made that a reality quite easily.
 
2013-02-25 04:40:58 PM
Uchiha_Cycliste: "Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities. "

Probably the same stuff they're already doing.  Just, ya know, safer.
 
2013-02-25 04:41:16 PM

ringersol: Because we can't get from A to B without driving.


But you can get from A to B without drinking and driving. Also you can get a public intoxication charge from walking from A to B with a BAC >.08, or just having an open beer in public can get you cited.

Can we stop pretending it's about safety?
 
2013-02-25 04:42:25 PM

PsyLord: This could've all been avoided if they can check the person's age on some sort of official document or card that has his/her picture on it...  Someone go work on that ASAP.


Maybe they could make some kind of voter ID card. Then everyone over 18 would have to have one!
 
2013-02-25 04:44:12 PM

ringersol: Uchiha_Cycliste: "Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities. "

Probably the same stuff they're already doing.  Just, ya know, safer.


I don't think I have much of a snarky replay to this.
I suppose I just hope kids these days aren't full blown boning while they drive.
 
2013-02-25 04:44:14 PM

MNguy: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Rat fink.  DIAF


Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:04 PM

Endive Wombat: justanotherfarkinfarker: Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.

Yup, safer cars, stricter driving standards/tests and training.

The biggest hurdle the US is going to face in lowering the drinking age back to 18 is getting rid of the novelty factor of it all.  As a culture, we glamorize alcohol and treat as taboo, which adds to its appeal.  I would argue that we are going to face similar issues in decriminalizing marijuana, use will go up, some accidents will happen...but that is another topic for another thread...


In 1982, 60% of all traffic deaths were "alcohol related*". In 2011, it was down to about 38%. Total fatalities dropped by 10k (total), while alcohol deaths dropped by 15k. It's not just the safer cars.

*According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), "A motor vehicle crash is considered to be alcohol-related if at least one driver or non-occupant (such as a pedestrian or pedalcyclist) involved in the crash is determined to have had a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .01 gram per deciliter (g/dL) or higher. Thus, any fatality that occurs in an alcohol-related crash is considered an alcohol-related fatality. The term 'alcohol-related' does not indicate that a crash or fatality was caused by the presence of alcohol."
**A driver involved in a motor vehicle crash is considered alcohol-impaired if he or she exhibits a BAC of .08 or greater.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:05 PM
I was at a Walmart (only place open after 10 that's not a bar) buying beer with friends. Because two of us were each buying we thought it'd be faster to go to two lanes. We were talking back and forth and both women manning the checkouts made the whole party walk to each lane to show all IDs to both of them. I understand their policy and needing to ID the entire group, but the whole group needing to do it twice for two purchases? Ridiculous. Maybe they had cops like these around.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:37 PM

Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.
 
2013-02-25 04:46:16 PM
Look on the bright side.  Obviously all crime has been eradicated and they now have nothing better to do than entrap beer joints.  I feel safe.  When the other shoe drops and they just start taking money from people at gunpoint cause "hey, we're the law" I hope you're friends with a gun nut.
 
2013-02-25 04:46:56 PM

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


The difference is that cops are above the law. They don't have to worry about silly things like logic, rights and laws.
 
2013-02-25 04:47:18 PM
FarFarAway:

Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.


But you actively tried to convince people to sell to you?  While you were over age 21?  I don't know how you sleep at night.
 
2013-02-25 04:47:28 PM
Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.
 
2013-02-25 04:48:46 PM

stonicus: downstairs: They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.

If the bar ONLY sold alcohol, maybe... but you can order a coke or pepsi or glass of water.  To me, it's entrapment.


Depends on where you are. In some states, if you are under age, you are not allowed to buy anything at the bar, even coke or water. Or even stand/sit at the bar.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:03 PM

lordjupiter: Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?


Is this a trick question...?  The legal standard is how old they are.

If you sell to somebody who is 19 but looks 35, you've violated the law.  Whining about how "inimidating" and "big" the kid is doesn't change anything.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:10 PM

TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?


So if you don't need ID for exercising rights, you're against checking ID and backgrounds for people buying guns, right?

/boom, headshot
 
2013-02-25 04:50:24 PM
have your identification on you at all times
be prepared to show your identification to any authority that demands it at all times
obey
if you do
we might leave you alone
 
2013-02-25 04:50:38 PM
The only thing newsworthy about this is that this happened in NYC.  I was a student at this school in early 2000's and my fake ID was practically issued to me as part of the welcome package.

At any Manhattan colleges the same rule applies; residences and frats do not have the available space for decent parties so everyone heads to the bars.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:44 PM
Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.
 
2013-02-25 04:51:08 PM

MNguy: FarFarAway:

Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.

But you actively tried to convince people to sell to you?  While you were over age 21?  I don't know how you sleep at night.


I did, and was paid handsomely. I sleep just fine, thanks.
 
2013-02-25 04:52:34 PM

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Who were you working for?
 
2013-02-25 04:52:44 PM
And this is why I still get carded even though I'm almost 40 with some salt sprinkled in with my pepper. When I was in my late 20's/early 30's I could laugh it off as flattering... but now it's just stupid. But I don't blame the retailers and bar owners, I blame the puritans and the officials who pull crap like getting some statistical outlier to conduct these shakedowns.
 
2013-02-25 04:53:57 PM
FarFarAway:

I did, and was paid handsomely. I sleep just fine, thanks.

I doubt that.

But I bet you're a heap of fun at parties.
 
2013-02-25 04:54:26 PM

Trocadero: In 1982, 60% of all traffic deaths were "alcohol related*". In 2011, it was down to about 38%. Total fatalities dropped by 10k (total), while alcohol deaths dropped by 15k. It's not just the safer cars.


Flawed logic. Doesn't take into account speed, number of people in the vehicle, single car vs multi car accidents, etc.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:05 PM

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


At 18 you can own a home and have people come over with alcohol, and you aren't allowed to have any.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:17 PM
Contrary to popular belief, the "Drinking"  age isn't 21 (at least in Washington State)--the age for BUYING alcohol is 21.  As a parent, I can give booze to my kids for consumption any place that it is legal to consume (in my presence), except if there is a liquor license in effect. So, I can't give my kid a beer in a bar or restaurant, but I can give my kid one at home, perfectly legal.

Sourcehttp://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=66.44.270   subsection (3). Or (4) for 'medicinal'  purposes.

Under 21, the permissible % alcohol in the bloodstream when driving, is 0% , so no having a single beer and jumpin' in the car.

So for those keeping score at home: for Washington State:
Underage Drinkin' : Yep - with Daddy's permission
Smokin' joints: Yep

Suck-it, flyover states!
 
2013-02-25 04:55:47 PM

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because teenagers are stupid enough when they're sober.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:47 PM

Bullseyed: TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?

So if you don't need ID for exercising rights, you're against checking ID and backgrounds for people buying guns, right?

/boom, headshot


Well, I'm not a moron who would act like owning a device designed for killing is the same as having a voice in government, so no, i'm not. I also wouldn't ever try to simplify all "rights" as always being assured at all times to everyone always.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:50 PM

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


More like Activism, banning, and whining.

Every single sting operation involving sending 18-20 year olds into convenience stores and bars to generate revenue (and that's all it is) should be shut down today.  Put those cops to work busting people selling drugs at the local high school if you want doing meaningful law enforcement or send them home.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:17 PM
Bought my first case of beer when I was 15. First time I was carded I was 28.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:26 PM

ErinPac: Is this really a surprise?

There are more and more of these older looking kids each year though.  Are they supposed to pick someone who looks 12 and make it super obvious?  The point isn't to see if they think its funny to get the kiddies drunk - it's to see if they're checking ID.


http://www.sla.ny.gov/handbook-for-retail-licenses

And if the bar fights the charge, their 6'6" narc will have to take the stand. And his name will be part of the public record. So he might not be ready to do that...

And even if he is, the jury members could well say "He sure as hell looks 35 to me" and render a not guilty verdict.

Let's see how it goes.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:41 PM

louiedog: I was at a Walmart (only place open after 10 that's not a bar) buying beer with friends. Because two of us were each buying we thought it'd be faster to go to two lanes. We were talking back and forth and both women manning the checkouts made the whole party walk to each lane to show all IDs to both of them. I understand their policy and needing to ID the entire group, but the whole group needing to do it twice for two purchases? Ridiculous. Maybe they had cops like these around.


I walked in to a Tops at roughly the same time as 2 or 3 younger college kids. The cashier insisted I came in with friends and that they all had to show their IDs too. I told him to check the store and the parking lot, because I was the only person there. Still refused sale.

/Haven't shopped there since
//Was a Tops employee for 3 years
///Tops is barely managing to stay in business for a reason
 
2013-02-25 04:57:29 PM

LeroyBourne: Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.


Most public school students can't do that level of math at age 18.
 
2013-02-25 04:58:06 PM

LeroyBourne: Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.


Back in the dark ages of college the drinking age was 19 (Idaho, early 80's).  There was a pizza joint everybody went to all the time.  Decent pizza, but you really went for the goldfish bowls of beer.  We had gone in multiple times before my 19th birthday, but went in to celebrate.  Show your ID on your birthday and get a free beer.  One of the guys who was with us was an early high school graduate.  So he was 17 at the time.  Wouldn't be 18 until the next month or so.  When we're settling up and he goes to pay the waiter asks him his birthdate.  He was smart enough to subtract a year.  But that just made him 18 not 17.  By that time we were paying and leaving so it was too late anyway.
 
2013-02-25 04:58:56 PM

mightybaldking: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Who were you working for?


I don't remember their name now. It was a secret shopper company that did all different kinds of shops, but that was the only work I got from them. I remember I had to actually send them a copy of my driver's license to prove that I was over 21, and I guess so they could see if I looked young enough.

That was years ago, and I still can't buy with out ID most of the time. But it seems to me what you order has something to do with it too. If I order a fruity drink, or a really trendy drink, I always get carded. If I order more obscure things they don't always do it.
 
2013-02-25 04:59:55 PM

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


BECAUSE

it's farking stupid
 
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