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(Gothamist)   This is how you troll when you're setting up an undercover operation to fine bars for selling liquor to minors. Make sure your 19-year-old operative looks like he's 35   (gothamist.com) divider line 305
    More: Asinine, Mad Dog, John Jay  
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38427 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 3:48 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-25 03:50:24 PM  
this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?
 
2013-02-25 03:50:44 PM  
He sounds DREAMY!
 
2013-02-25 03:51:47 PM  
At a certain point this is bound to happen, your impulse to check an ID really only kicks on when you see someone who looks young. Christ, why didn't they just get someone who ages in reverse to get this place busted?
 
2013-02-25 03:51:51 PM  
Hence why most stores around here use under 40 as the metric.

/31 days.
 
2013-02-25 03:51:59 PM  
This is all for the $ecurity of our youth.
 
2013-02-25 03:52:00 PM  
Hmmmm...sounds like Bill Brasky....
 
2013-02-25 03:52:16 PM  
Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?
 
2013-02-25 03:52:36 PM  
That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.
 
2013-02-25 03:52:53 PM  
Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.
 
2013-02-25 03:53:03 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because Jesus
 
2013-02-25 03:53:43 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


because states want highway money
 
2013-02-25 03:54:06 PM  
I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?
 
2013-02-25 03:54:20 PM  

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.


Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.
 
2013-02-25 03:54:25 PM  

RedHeadLover: Hmmmm...sounds like Bill Brasky....


Did I ever tell you about the time Brasky took me out to go get a drink with him? We go off looking for a bar and we can't find one. Finally Brasky takes me to a vacant lot and says, 'Here we are.' We sat there for a year and a half and sure enough someone constructs a bar around us. The day they opened we ordered a shot, drank it, and then burned the place to the ground. Brasky yelled over the roar of the flames, 'Always leave things the way you found em!'
 
2013-02-25 03:54:41 PM  
Bought my first case of beer when I was 14.


/can
 
2013-02-25 03:54:49 PM  
viewaskew.com
 
2013-02-25 03:55:02 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because we're stupid.
 
2013-02-25 03:55:47 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?
 
2013-02-25 03:55:55 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.
 
2013-02-25 03:56:18 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday
 
2013-02-25 03:56:37 PM  
I used to spend many nights a week in that sh*thole.  Used to love the crowd but they seemed to grow younger faster than I grew older.  Still stop by to see the Tims and some of the regulars, but I'm not surprised they got busted.  That place is crawling with high school kids.
 
kab
2013-02-25 03:56:43 PM  
This same sort of thing gets used in prostitution stings pretty frequently.. so..

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.


Gotta collect that sweet fine money.
 
2013-02-25 03:56:56 PM  

mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.
 
2013-02-25 03:57:08 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?



Anyone posted an answer to this yet?
 
2013-02-25 03:57:47 PM  

meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.


They should change the law to say 18 + high school diploma = legal to drink.
 
2013-02-25 03:57:54 PM  
You really never know.  I just saw a picture of my wife's ex when he was in high school: balding and honestly looked mid thirties.  Some people have city miles.

Then there's my co-worker who is 32 with a husband and a kid and could easily pass for 18-19.

/no, I'm not uploading pics of said hot co-worker.  Would be creepy.
 
2013-02-25 03:58:15 PM  

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


because 22 year olds dont drink and drive.
 
2013-02-25 03:58:21 PM  

NoleFarker: I used to spend many nights a week in that sh*thole.  Used to love the crowd but they seemed to grow younger faster than I grew older.  Still stop by to see the Tims and some of the regulars, but I'm not surprised they got busted.  That place is crawling with high school kids.


t1.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-25 03:58:21 PM  
The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.
 
2013-02-25 03:58:23 PM  
Sounds like my buddy Doug.
 
kab
2013-02-25 03:58:30 PM  

kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Anyone posted an answer to this yet?


Yes:

scottydoesntknow: Because Jesus


And that's as good of an answer as you'll get on the subject.
 
2013-02-25 03:58:55 PM  
Yes, you too sounded like this when you were in college.

Bullshiat.
 
2013-02-25 03:58:58 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because CDC FACTS (whose outcomes may have been influenced by outside monies, but pay no attention to that, plebian).
 
2013-02-25 03:59:03 PM  
If I were selling liquor I'd check ID for everyone.  I don't care if you looked like Abe Vigoda; you are not getting anything from me until I see ID.
 
2013-02-25 03:59:17 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?



Personally, I blame M.A.D.D.
 
2013-02-25 03:59:22 PM  

meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.


It was 18 when I was in high school.  Don't recall anyone ever getting busted for being drunk in class.  Hell, we never even went to class high.  Saved that shiat for after school and weekends.
 
2013-02-25 03:59:50 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


grassroots.groupon.com
 
2013-02-25 04:00:05 PM  
Dunno about that state, but in Texas it's farking confusing:

http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/enforcement/age_verification.asp

Texas state law does not require that a person over 21 provide any identification to purchase alcohol in Texas. There is nothing in the law that declares specific forms of ID as "valid" for an alcohol purchase.

However, a person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does NOT commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid proof of identification that:

contains a physical description and photograph consistent with the minor's appearance;purports to establish that the minor is 21 years of age or older; andwas issued by a governmental agency.
The proof of identification may include a driver's license issued by any state, a U.S. passport, a military identification card or any other ID issued by a state or the federal government.

For that reason, since store clerks, wait staff, and bartenders can be held criminally liable for selling alcohol to a minor, they often require a photo ID issued by a governmental agency, to prove that the person really is 21.

A store, bar or restaurant  might or might not sell alcohol to a person with an expired driver's license, a foreign passport or other ID.  What's acceptable in any establishment is a matter of that establishment's private business policies.

If the patron is obviously over 21, the establishment may not require any ID at all.
 
2013-02-25 04:00:49 PM  
I found a picture of the undercover operative.

www.bostonglobe.com
 
2013-02-25 04:00:56 PM  

abfalter: If I were selling liquor I'd check ID for everyone.  I don't care if you looked like Abe Vigoda; you are not getting anything from me until I see ID.


To be fair, Abe looks pretty young for his age...
 
2013-02-25 04:01:12 PM  

skullkrusher: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

because states want highway money


 and, in louisiana, the highways show the toll of that noble battle.
 
2013-02-25 04:01:27 PM  

the_sidewinder: y is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


When I was 17 the drinking age was 18 a legacy of Vietnam.  Just before I turned 18 they bumped it to 19 to keep older high school seniors from buy for younger high schoolers.  When I was 19 they moved it to 20 because neighboring states were 20 and we didn't want kids driving long distances for booze.  The just a week before I turned twenty they bumped it to 21 because Ronny Raygun wouldn't give any state with a drinking age under 21 any federal highway dollars.

At 18 you can be drafted, get married, serve on a capital jury, enter into contracts and have kids but you can't have a beer because you aren't mature enough.
 
2013-02-25 04:01:34 PM  
Is this really a surprise?

There are more and more of these older looking kids each year though.  Are they supposed to pick someone who looks 12 and make it super obvious?  The point isn't to see if they think its funny to get the kiddies drunk - it's to see if they're checking ID.  It says he's tall and has a beard - a lot of teens could probably fit that description.  It also mentions them being caught before and an article claiming it is a good place for younger students.  A bar close to campus and popular with college students either knows to card everyone or is knowingly running this risk and doesn't care.

It is not a surprise for them to say he looks 35 because that is exactly the cutoff where their policy says to card people.  They pretty much have to say that.
 
2013-02-25 04:01:36 PM  
Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Answer
 
2013-02-25 04:01:43 PM  
Epic trolling for the win! Right, subby?
HAXX0RED THOSE SUXX0RS!
 
2013-02-25 04:01:59 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Because drinking impairs your ability to do most of those things, and honestly most 20-somethings are about as responsible with their drinking as 18 year olds.   I don't think people really get their shiat together until 25-40 when the metabolism and body/brain development slows, and you can't just go out and get roaring drunk all night long (only to call in with "food poisoning" the next day, which nobody believes as your excuse because we've all farking done it and we know you were out scamming).
 
2013-02-25 04:02:05 PM  

Katolu: Bought my first case of beer when I was 14.


/can


Stole my first case of beer when I was 12.  I win!
 
2013-02-25 04:02:41 PM  
I got shot down trying to purchase beer while using my passport as an ID. I was told that I needed to have a state issued form of ID.
 
2013-02-25 04:03:35 PM  

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


Makes me think of dry counties.

"We don't want people drinking and driving, so we made it illegal to sell alcohol. You'll have to drive to another county to get your booze."

It's like they didn't think their plan through.
 
2013-02-25 04:03:39 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act#Histo ry

"In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator  (D-NJ) and influenced by  (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds."

So, a Democrat and M.A.D.D. threatening to take money away are to blame (though I would like to see the voting record for that legislation, my google-fu is lacking)
 
2013-02-25 04:04:09 PM  
With make-up the way it is these days, you'd think some clever teens would go 'old man.' We didn't have fancy fake ID's when I was young so I had to get an older friends to hook me up, or (if they weren't around) hang out and troll the liquor store parking lot for people willing to do that, for a huge fee of course.
 
2013-02-25 04:04:30 PM  

scottydoesntknow: mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.


I still bartend part time and am a hard carding motherfarker.

Now nobody is going to come into my place a business in fatigues: but if they obviously look active duty and start pulling out a military ID, I tell them to put it away. I'm limited with what my corporate overlords will permit but as long as the soldier stays in control, their pours are strong and they'll get a few free beers.
 
2013-02-25 04:04:35 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Because marijuana.
/Also, did I miss pic of the "kid"?

What a minor who looks aged might look like ...
 
2013-02-25 04:05:33 PM  
As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?
 
2013-02-25 04:06:30 PM  

carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.


My brother got busted when he was working the front desk at a hotel and the cops sent in a 16 year old to buy cigarettes out of the vending machine in the lobby. My bro didnt even sell the kid the cigarettes. Then the cops tried to recruit him to be the one trying to buy the cigarettes in exchange for dropping the fine. My bro basically told them to fark off out of principle.
 
2013-02-25 04:07:01 PM  
When I was 17, I drank a very good beer.
I drank a very good beer that I purchased with a fake Id.
My name was brian McGee,  I stayed up listening to queen
*sobs* when I was 17,.*sobs*
 
2013-02-25 04:07:19 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.

So when it's considered bad, people will drink it like it's naughty. Then they act naughty, and alcohol get's an even worse reputation. It's a vicious cycle.

Here's an interesting article on the cultural aspects of binge drinking:

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2010/02/15/100215fa_fact_gladwell
 
2013-02-25 04:07:32 PM  
I know this term gets misused a lot, so I'm not saying this lightly... I think there might be a case for entrapment here.  From the NY State Code:

In any prosecution for an offense, it is an affirmative defense that the defendant engaged in the proscribed conduct because he was induced or encouraged to do so by a public servant, or by a person acting in cooperation with a public servant, seeking to obtain evidence against him for purpose of criminal prosecution, and when the methods used to obtain such evidence were such as to create a substantial risk that the offense would be committed by a person not otherwise disposed to commit it. Inducement or encouragement to commit an offense means active inducement or encouragement. Conduct merely affording a person an opportunity to commit an offense does not constitute entrapment.

If they send someone that gives the appearance of being over 30, they are creating a substantial risk of inducing a person to serve alcohol to an illegal recipient.  The act of requesting the drink would, I suppose, constitute "active inducement or encouragement".  The physical intimidation factor might play in, but I'd think a bartender would meet a varied enough group to make that not a big inducement.
 
2013-02-25 04:08:09 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: My brother got busted when he was working the front desk at a hotel and the cops sent in a 16 year old to buy cigarettes out of the vending machine in the lobby. My bro didnt even sell the kid the cigarettes. Then the cops tried to recruit him to be the one trying to buy the cigarettes in exchange for dropping the fine. My bro basically told them to fark off out of principle.


They've been doing this crap down here... busting bartenders for letting a minor buy cigs from a machine.  Totally stupid.
 
2013-02-25 04:09:04 PM  
Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.
 
2013-02-25 04:09:04 PM  
We have taken several fat ugly teenagers & fooled bar owners into thinking they were of age. That will learn them!!!
 
2013-02-25 04:09:50 PM  

Igor Jakovsky: carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.

My brother got busted when he was working the front desk at a hotel and the cops sent in a 16 year old to buy cigarettes out of the vending machine in the lobby. My bro didnt even sell the kid the cigarettes. Then the cops tried to recruit him to be the one trying to buy the cigarettes in exchange for dropping the fine. My bro basically told them to fark off out of principle.


Sounds like they should have busted the vending machine corp instead.

My friend tried to buy a lighter when he was 16, the clerk refused to sell him one because "he will probably use it to light a cigarette" (which was true, but still)

Another friend was refused a sale on a bag of ice because the clerk said "he was going to use it to keep beer cold" (again, true, but still, pretty stupid)
 
2013-02-25 04:09:53 PM  
This happened at our restaurant, except we passed the test.  We got word that the VA ABC in Loudoun County were conducting stings.  I was managing at the time, and instructed my staff to literally card everyone, even if they come in with a walker and their hair is as grey as can be...

The person they sent in was over 6' tall, 230lbs, deep voice, gritty clothes, facial hair (almost epic beard)...he looked like a blue collar workin' man.

Every single waiter and bartender said they would have served him without carding him.  Stupid "gotcha" enforcement techniques...
 
2013-02-25 04:10:05 PM  
Had a buddy in HS that was our go to guy for booze purchases. he was 16 went from clean shaven to full beard in day or two.
 
2013-02-25 04:10:10 PM  

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.



Ever kill someone because you voted?
 
2013-02-25 04:10:30 PM  

scottydoesntknow: mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.


Military fatigues, no. Anyone could buy those.  But having spoken to many bartenders in NYC, if you come in your uniform you are absolutely served even if you are obviously 18 or 19.
 
2013-02-25 04:10:47 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Democrats.

C'mon, you know it's true.

 

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.


Why do yo hate LEO's so much.

You do know that real criminals have guns and they are too broke to pay fines.

Why don't you ever think of the State before yourself?
 
2013-02-25 04:11:07 PM  

treesloth: If they send someone that gives the appearance of being over 30, they are creating a substantial risk of inducing a person to serve alcohol to an illegal recipient. The act of requesting the drink would, I suppose, constitute "active inducement or encouragement". The physical intimidation factor might play in, but I'd think a bartender would meet a varied enough group to make that not a big inducement.


They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.

I still think its all stupid... just throwing that out there.
 
2013-02-25 04:11:18 PM  

lordjupiter: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Ever kill someone because you voted?


No, because I didn't vote for Bush or Obama. nyuk nyuk nyuk.
 
2013-02-25 04:13:48 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.


Fairfax county police did that here in VA.  Sat in a busy bar and busted two types of people:
1.  Consumed more than 3-4 drinks in one hour time
2.  People walking from the bar to the cab waiting for them 12' from the front door of the restaurant

Did not matter if you had a safe ride home...Anyone who blew a .08 or more was given a public intoxication ticket, I think some people went to the drunk tank.

Buncha horseshiat and waste of county dollars and resources.
 
2013-02-25 04:13:57 PM  
Another fun fact about this place...they filmed the bar scene from The Other Guys there.  I'm pretty sure it paid for the new pool table, which was promptly destroyed by someone's cosmo spill.
 
2013-02-25 04:14:06 PM  

Endive Wombat: I was managing at the time, and instructed my staff to literally card everyone, even if they come in with a walker and their hair is as grey as can be...


Which raises the following question: Have police ever sent kids dressed in professional makeup to appear elderly (a la Jackass The Movie) on these stings?
 
2013-02-25 04:14:08 PM  

Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.


Heh, I got an attendant chewed out one time by her manager. She was this young attendant who insisted I take my I.D. out every time so they can swipe to "verify" it's real. Every attendant there knew me and knew I was 25 (26 now). I played along for a couple weeks as she was new, but after a while I knew she knew who I was because she would laugh and just point at her little "We I.D under 35" sign as soon as I came in. Her manager was there one day and said:
"Do you make him take his license out every time?"
"...yes."
"Stop doing that! I know he looks 16, but you KNOW he's over 18, so stop harassing him because eventually he'll stop coming in."

She stopped doing it after that.
 
2013-02-25 04:14:15 PM  

downstairs: They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.


If the bar ONLY sold alcohol, maybe... but you can order a coke or pepsi or glass of water.  To me, it's entrapment.
 
2013-02-25 04:14:36 PM  

scottydoesntknow: StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.

Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.


"Mr. White, you are being charged with 'drunk in pub-Lick'!"
 
2013-02-25 04:15:02 PM  

scottydoesntknow: StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant."

I certainly feel safer.

Like when Dallas PD started busting people for public intoxication...while they were sitting in a bar.


Didn't even throw them into public first? At least New York got that part right...
 
2013-02-25 04:15:47 PM  

downstairs: Katolu: Bought my first case of beer when I was 14.


/can

Stole my first case of beer when I was 12.  I win!



Got a adult man with poor judgement to buy Jack Daniels for me and my best friend when I was 11. After ditching church. We got drunk with 3 kids who were out of training school and got booze from the same guy. Best friend puked on the pastors wife. We were the topic of the sermon the next week.

I win!
 
2013-02-25 04:15:52 PM  
This could've all been avoided if they can check the person's age on some sort of official document or card that has his/her picture on it...  Someone go work on that ASAP.
 
2013-02-25 04:16:11 PM  

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Me and my friends were rebels.  At 16 we snuck in line at the voting place and gave them fake names.

Yeah, voting isn't nearly as fun as drinking, that's why.
 
2013-02-25 04:16:22 PM  
cgraves67: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.


When I was in college the rule was you could drink what you wanted, smoke what you wanted and sleep with who you wanted just don't fluent it.  We would regularly by beer on Friday and sit around and talk or go to a party on one of the other floors.  Some one would over do it and get sick but the rest of us were there to help.  This is how I learned to handle my liquor.

After I graduated I was visiting an old roommate who was working as an RA and they had just had an death from alcohol poisoning.  This is something we never heard of and I went to school.  My old roommate told me that instead of having a few beers or play quarters students would drink in private.  Being caught this booze got you kicked you of housing - big deal in Boston.  This didn't stop the drinking it drove it underground.  Buy a pint of a fifth, chug it some where discreet and then party.
 
2013-02-25 04:16:58 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.
 
2013-02-25 04:18:17 PM  

lordjupiter: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Ever kill someone because you voted?


My congresswoman used to be on the House Arms Committee, so yes.
 
2013-02-25 04:18:56 PM  

Cheron: cgraves67: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.

When I was in college the rule was you could drink what you wanted, smoke what you wanted and sleep with who you wanted just don't fluent it.  We would regularly by beer on Friday and sit around and talk or go to a party on one of the other floors.  Some one would over do it and get sick but the rest of us were there to help.  This is how I learned to handle my liquor.

After I graduated I was visiting an old roommate who was working as an RA and they had just had an death from alcohol poisoning.  This is something we never heard of and I went to school.  My old roommate told me that instead of having a few beers or play quarters students would drink in private.  Being caught this booze got you kicked you of housing - big deal in Boston.  This didn't stop the drinking it drove it underground.  Buy a pint of a fifth, chug it some where discreet and then party.


Have you been drinking already?
 
2013-02-25 04:19:09 PM  
The 19 year olds who pose for these operations need the shiat beat out of them.
 
2013-02-25 04:20:00 PM  
It's a crime to buy underage not just serve. Cops should just send in a girl that looks 18 but is 21. Then you know if the bar is carding and aren't pushing a crime.

I'd argue the 21 age pushed drinking out of regulated bars and caused more problems for younger people.
 
2013-02-25 04:20:43 PM  
I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.
 
2013-02-25 04:21:04 PM  
As far as I can tell, the provision that requires states to uphold the drinking age at 21 lest they lose highway funds was struck down when the Supreme Court invalidated the Medicaid expansion provision of Obamacare.  Didn't they rule that this type of Congressional action was unconstitutional?  Any lawyer types want to chime in about this?
 
2013-02-25 04:21:36 PM  

Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.


Wegmans (everyone's favorite grocery store in the Northeast) has a 100% ID policy for alcohol. Everyone must present their ID regardless of age. It's just easier that way and I don't blame them.
 
2013-02-25 04:22:11 PM  

lordjupiter: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Ever kill someone because you voted?


You don't see H. Ross Perot's jug ears. flopping about anymore, do ya?
 
2013-02-25 04:24:28 PM  

Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.
 
2013-02-25 04:24:55 PM  

StrangeQ: Link farked?  Anyway, this kind of "gotcha" bullshiat is why people don't trust the police.  They've gone from serve and protect to "Hmm, not enough people are breaking the law, let's devise a devious means to manufacture some crime to prove we're still relevant. raise enough money in fines to give ourselves 20% raises"

I certainly feel safer.


I often say my first move as a "local government" level person of elected office (town supervisor) would be to fire half the cops. If they have time to radar anyone, then there is not enough crime to warrant their job existing.
 
2013-02-25 04:25:17 PM  
1020 was fined $1,500 as a result of the sting...

They're lucky. Here in Utah, they would have been slapped with a minimum 30-day suspension of their liquor license, with no real recourse to appeal the decision. Actually, I think they get penalized for appealing by suffering a longer suspension if they appeal and fail. These places have to close their doors for this time, and people can get laid off or have to go the whole time with no check. Sometimes, they find other jobs, and then the bar is forced to find a bunch of new employees and train them.

This kind of underhanded bullshiat is just that, bullshiat. The kind of stuf they like to pull here, just to name a couple off the top of my head?

Wait until the crowd near the door is huge, stuff a beer in their jacket, and sneak through the crowd, out the door.

Arrive as a party of 4, give their drink order, wait until the drinks are about to arrive, send 2 of the people to the bathroom, and then cite the place for over-serving since the waitress is dropping off drinks for 4 to a table of 2, regardless of how many originally ordered.

Gotta love this kind of shiat.
 
2013-02-25 04:26:03 PM  

The 4chan Psychiatrist: Endive Wombat: I was managing at the time, and instructed my staff to literally card everyone, even if they come in with a walker and their hair is as grey as can be...

Which raises the following question: Have police ever sent kids dressed in professional makeup to appear elderly (a la Jackass The Movie) on these stings?


I seriously doubt it, but it I would suspect the judge would be more apt to toss out the charges and scream at the department for wasting tax payers money on prosthetics and makeup.  I wonder if that could be classified as entrapment...
 
2013-02-25 04:27:32 PM  

HellRaisingHoosier: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Personally, I blame M.A.D.D.


Yup.

I read (linked from here on Fark, I think) an interesting article describing their activities over the years. Like getting the DUI laws changed from 'if your driving is adversely affected by booze...' to 'if your BAC is over a certain amount, no matter how well you may be driving', then lobbying to lower that amount. And other dirty little tricks. All in the name of 'for the children'.
 
2013-02-25 04:27:49 PM  

mjohnson71: meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.

They should change the law to say 18 + high school diploma = legal to drink.


I suspect there are a lot of farkers with GEDs or no high school diploma who will disagree with you on that...
 
2013-02-25 04:28:00 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


It's even higher in some countries.
 
2013-02-25 04:28:33 PM  

Nickninja: You really never know.  I just saw a picture of my wife's ex when he was in high school: balding and honestly looked mid thirties.  Some people have city miles.

Then there's my co-worker who is 32 with a husband and a kid and could easily pass for 18-19.

/no, I'm not uploading pics of said hot co-worker.  Would be creepy.


But you have them, which is creepy.

/we know what you wank to
 
2013-02-25 04:29:04 PM  

downstairs: Katolu: Bought my first case of beer when I was 14.


/can

Stole my first case of beer when I was 12.  I win!


Lol...bow to you.
 
2013-02-25 04:29:41 PM  

Mikey1969: Here in Utah


Found yer problem. A lot of state liquor laws are pretty ass-backward, but Utah's will always be the worst.
 
2013-02-25 04:30:07 PM  

bikerbob59: meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.

It was 18 when I was in high school.  Don't recall anyone ever getting busted for being drunk in class.  Hell, we never even went to class high.  Saved that shiat for after school and weekends.


It was 18 for me as well. We'd slip out of school about 10:30 and come back after lunch just jacked. We'd also buy alcohol for any of the underage kids on the weekends as well. Personally, I'm glad it's 21, I don't want my kids to do the stuff I did.
 
2013-02-25 04:30:18 PM  

justanotherfarkinfarker: Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.


Yup, safer cars, stricter driving standards/tests and training.

The biggest hurdle the US is going to face in lowering the drinking age back to 18 is getting rid of the novelty factor of it all.  As a culture, we glamorize alcohol and treat as taboo, which adds to its appeal.  I would argue that we are going to face similar issues in decriminalizing marijuana, use will go up, some accidents will happen...but that is another topic for another thread...
 
2013-02-25 04:30:50 PM  

lordjupiter: As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?


The problem here is that the law says: It's illegal to serve anyone under 21.    There's no law that says you need to id. And there's no law that says if you do ... then your clear.  You just can't serve anyone under 21.  In some jurisdictions, you can ask for id, and be shown (high quality fake) id, serve the beer and be charged.  You can serve someone who looks 12, but if they turn out to be over 21, then no foul.   Some jurisdictions make allowances for fake ID.  If you exercise due diligence, and slip up, then no penalty.    Others don't.

Now, in a fair world, there would be the usual exception, the good old "known or ought to have known".  Also known as the "You can't be willfully blind!" rule.
 
2013-02-25 04:31:03 PM  

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


One is a right. One isn't. We done here?
 
2013-02-25 04:32:17 PM  

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


so ban all alcohol?  Or does bad driving only occur when you drink and drive if you're less than 21?
 
2013-02-25 04:32:21 PM  

fredklein: I read (linked from here on Fark, I think) an interesting article describing their activities over the years. Like getting the DUI laws changed from 'if your driving is adversely affected by booze...' to 'if your BAC is over a certain amount, no matter how well you may be driving', then lobbying to lower that amount. And other dirty little tricks. All in the name of 'for the children'.


When the founder of your organization leaves because she thinks it's becomign extremist, you know it's a bad organization. It became less about preventing drunk driving, and more about instituting a new form of prohibition
 
2013-02-25 04:33:34 PM  

lordjupiter: Because drinking impairs your ability to do most of those things


But when you're impaired in this fashion, you're still supposed to become suddenly unimpaired when it comes time to decide whether or not to drive.

/Never understood that
//If you're too drunk to drive, you're too drunk to decide whether or not to drive...
///Arbitrary BAC is arbitrary.
 
2013-02-25 04:34:14 PM  

Mikey1969: 1020 was fined $1,500 as a result of the sting...

They're lucky. Here in Utah, they would have been slapped with a minimum 30-day suspension of their liquor license, with no real recourse to appeal the decision. Actually, I think they get penalized for appealing by suffering a longer suspension if they appeal and fail. These places have to close their doors for this time, and people can get laid off or have to go the whole time with no check. Sometimes, they find other jobs, and then the bar is forced to find a bunch of new employees and train them.

This kind of underhanded bullshiat is just that, bullshiat. The kind of stuf they like to pull here, just to name a couple off the top of my head?

Wait until the crowd near the door is huge, stuff a beer in their jacket, and sneak through the crowd, out the door.

Arrive as a party of 4, give their drink order, wait until the drinks are about to arrive, send 2 of the people to the bathroom, and then cite the place for over-serving since the waitress is dropping off drinks for 4 to a table of 2, regardless of how many originally ordered.

Gotta love this kind of shiat.


WHOA whoa whoa whoa WHOA! If I'm in Utah, I can't order myself 2 beers?
 
2013-02-25 04:34:50 PM  

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


While I get the heightened overall risk of DUIs, I feel like it somehow fits into what people are saying here. Getting a DUI in the United States is like have a farking murder rap. I don't have one, but man, it absolutely murders you financially and personally while completely removing your ability to work in certain factions of work forever.

I have no idea how to fix this considering, but blowing a 0.09 while driving home is basically a huge check cut to the city and state.

/Don't have DUI
//EVERYONE in LA does though
 
2013-02-25 04:35:25 PM  

Nickninja: You really never know.  I just saw a picture of my wife's ex when he was in high school: balding and honestly looked mid thirties.  Some people have city miles.

Then there's my co-worker who is 32 with a husband and a kid and could easily pass for 18-19.

/no, I'm not uploading pics of said hot co-worker.  Would be creepy.


No, what's creepy is you stalking around in her backyard, taking said pictures.  8)
 
2013-02-25 04:35:28 PM  
the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?
 
2013-02-25 04:39:00 PM  

kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Anyone posted an answer to this yet?


The age at which one is considered a legal adult was 21 for centuries under English common law.  The drinking age was pegged to that standard originally.

Then FDR lowered the minimum conscription age from 21 to 18.  During Viet Nam, kids secured the right to vote at 18 because they could die for their country.  Other adult rights, including drinking, followed suit.  (The draft brought us the blessing of teenaged strippers!)

Drinking-related deaths rose among 18-20 year olds, so the feds forced the age back up to 21.

 
2013-02-25 04:39:08 PM  

ringersol: the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?


Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities.
 
2013-02-25 04:39:42 PM  

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Rat fink.  DIAF
 
2013-02-25 04:39:49 PM  

lordjupiter: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Ever kill someone because you voted?


In before:
- 9/11 was an inside job
-Iraq war was "illegal"
-Bush lied, kids died
 
2013-02-25 04:40:02 PM  

carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.


There may be some rationale for the 21 years old age limit for alcohol, since being drunk can impair a person's ability to do things. But minimum age of 18 (or even 17) for porn? Minimum age should be, can the kid ejaculate? If he can fap and pop a nut, he's old enough to enjoy porn.

Then again, our modern wonders have made that a reality quite easily.
 
2013-02-25 04:40:58 PM  
Uchiha_Cycliste: "Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities. "

Probably the same stuff they're already doing.  Just, ya know, safer.
 
2013-02-25 04:41:16 PM  

ringersol: Because we can't get from A to B without driving.


But you can get from A to B without drinking and driving. Also you can get a public intoxication charge from walking from A to B with a BAC >.08, or just having an open beer in public can get you cited.

Can we stop pretending it's about safety?
 
2013-02-25 04:42:25 PM  

PsyLord: This could've all been avoided if they can check the person's age on some sort of official document or card that has his/her picture on it...  Someone go work on that ASAP.


Maybe they could make some kind of voter ID card. Then everyone over 18 would have to have one!
 
2013-02-25 04:44:12 PM  

ringersol: Uchiha_Cycliste: "Yes, what harm could possibly happen from a couple of drunken teenagers left in a car for an hour or two without supervision or responsibilities. "

Probably the same stuff they're already doing.  Just, ya know, safer.


I don't think I have much of a snarky replay to this.
I suppose I just hope kids these days aren't full blown boning while they drive.
 
2013-02-25 04:44:14 PM  

MNguy: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Rat fink.  DIAF


Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:04 PM  

Endive Wombat: justanotherfarkinfarker: Trocadero: Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

accident fatality went down nationwide, has continued to, It's more due to the cars and roads. for drunk driving rates I'd argue it's more due to social changes than legal, as I sure had no problem drinking around age 18 even though it was set to 21 I think ten years before I turned 21.

Yup, safer cars, stricter driving standards/tests and training.

The biggest hurdle the US is going to face in lowering the drinking age back to 18 is getting rid of the novelty factor of it all.  As a culture, we glamorize alcohol and treat as taboo, which adds to its appeal.  I would argue that we are going to face similar issues in decriminalizing marijuana, use will go up, some accidents will happen...but that is another topic for another thread...


In 1982, 60% of all traffic deaths were "alcohol related*". In 2011, it was down to about 38%. Total fatalities dropped by 10k (total), while alcohol deaths dropped by 15k. It's not just the safer cars.

*According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA), "A motor vehicle crash is considered to be alcohol-related if at least one driver or non-occupant (such as a pedestrian or pedalcyclist) involved in the crash is determined to have had a blood alcohol concentration (BAC) of .01 gram per deciliter (g/dL) or higher. Thus, any fatality that occurs in an alcohol-related crash is considered an alcohol-related fatality. The term 'alcohol-related' does not indicate that a crash or fatality was caused by the presence of alcohol."
**A driver involved in a motor vehicle crash is considered alcohol-impaired if he or she exhibits a BAC of .08 or greater.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:05 PM  
I was at a Walmart (only place open after 10 that's not a bar) buying beer with friends. Because two of us were each buying we thought it'd be faster to go to two lanes. We were talking back and forth and both women manning the checkouts made the whole party walk to each lane to show all IDs to both of them. I understand their policy and needing to ID the entire group, but the whole group needing to do it twice for two purchases? Ridiculous. Maybe they had cops like these around.
 
2013-02-25 04:45:37 PM  

Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.
 
2013-02-25 04:46:16 PM  
Look on the bright side.  Obviously all crime has been eradicated and they now have nothing better to do than entrap beer joints.  I feel safe.  When the other shoe drops and they just start taking money from people at gunpoint cause "hey, we're the law" I hope you're friends with a gun nut.
 
2013-02-25 04:46:56 PM  

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


The difference is that cops are above the law. They don't have to worry about silly things like logic, rights and laws.
 
2013-02-25 04:47:18 PM  
FarFarAway:

Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.


But you actively tried to convince people to sell to you?  While you were over age 21?  I don't know how you sleep at night.
 
2013-02-25 04:47:28 PM  
Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.
 
2013-02-25 04:48:46 PM  

stonicus: downstairs: They probably get around entrapment because the bartender speaks first, saying "what can I get you?" or something like that.  They probably train the underage trap to not order/speak first.

If the bar ONLY sold alcohol, maybe... but you can order a coke or pepsi or glass of water.  To me, it's entrapment.


Depends on where you are. In some states, if you are under age, you are not allowed to buy anything at the bar, even coke or water. Or even stand/sit at the bar.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:03 PM  

lordjupiter: Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?


Is this a trick question...?  The legal standard is how old they are.

If you sell to somebody who is 19 but looks 35, you've violated the law.  Whining about how "inimidating" and "big" the kid is doesn't change anything.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:10 PM  

TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?


So if you don't need ID for exercising rights, you're against checking ID and backgrounds for people buying guns, right?

/boom, headshot
 
2013-02-25 04:50:24 PM  
have your identification on you at all times
be prepared to show your identification to any authority that demands it at all times
obey
if you do
we might leave you alone
 
2013-02-25 04:50:38 PM  
The only thing newsworthy about this is that this happened in NYC.  I was a student at this school in early 2000's and my fake ID was practically issued to me as part of the welcome package.

At any Manhattan colleges the same rule applies; residences and frats do not have the available space for decent parties so everyone heads to the bars.
 
2013-02-25 04:50:44 PM  
Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.
 
2013-02-25 04:51:08 PM  

MNguy: FarFarAway:

Yes, because your presumed right to buy alcohol underage is definitely something I should die for. This makes sense.

/my assignments weren't bars. They were convenience stores.

But you actively tried to convince people to sell to you?  While you were over age 21?  I don't know how you sleep at night.


I did, and was paid handsomely. I sleep just fine, thanks.
 
2013-02-25 04:52:34 PM  

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Who were you working for?
 
2013-02-25 04:52:44 PM  
And this is why I still get carded even though I'm almost 40 with some salt sprinkled in with my pepper. When I was in my late 20's/early 30's I could laugh it off as flattering... but now it's just stupid. But I don't blame the retailers and bar owners, I blame the puritans and the officials who pull crap like getting some statistical outlier to conduct these shakedowns.
 
2013-02-25 04:53:57 PM  
FarFarAway:

I did, and was paid handsomely. I sleep just fine, thanks.

I doubt that.

But I bet you're a heap of fun at parties.
 
2013-02-25 04:54:26 PM  

Trocadero: In 1982, 60% of all traffic deaths were "alcohol related*". In 2011, it was down to about 38%. Total fatalities dropped by 10k (total), while alcohol deaths dropped by 15k. It's not just the safer cars.


Flawed logic. Doesn't take into account speed, number of people in the vehicle, single car vs multi car accidents, etc.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:05 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


At 18 you can own a home and have people come over with alcohol, and you aren't allowed to have any.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:17 PM  
Contrary to popular belief, the "Drinking"  age isn't 21 (at least in Washington State)--the age for BUYING alcohol is 21.  As a parent, I can give booze to my kids for consumption any place that it is legal to consume (in my presence), except if there is a liquor license in effect. So, I can't give my kid a beer in a bar or restaurant, but I can give my kid one at home, perfectly legal.

Sourcehttp://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=66.44.270   subsection (3). Or (4) for 'medicinal'  purposes.

Under 21, the permissible % alcohol in the bloodstream when driving, is 0% , so no having a single beer and jumpin' in the car.

So for those keeping score at home: for Washington State:
Underage Drinkin' : Yep - with Daddy's permission
Smokin' joints: Yep

Suck-it, flyover states!
 
2013-02-25 04:55:47 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because teenagers are stupid enough when they're sober.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:47 PM  

Bullseyed: TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?

So if you don't need ID for exercising rights, you're against checking ID and backgrounds for people buying guns, right?

/boom, headshot


Well, I'm not a moron who would act like owning a device designed for killing is the same as having a voice in government, so no, i'm not. I also wouldn't ever try to simplify all "rights" as always being assured at all times to everyone always.
 
2013-02-25 04:55:50 PM  

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


More like Activism, banning, and whining.

Every single sting operation involving sending 18-20 year olds into convenience stores and bars to generate revenue (and that's all it is) should be shut down today.  Put those cops to work busting people selling drugs at the local high school if you want doing meaningful law enforcement or send them home.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:17 PM  
Bought my first case of beer when I was 15. First time I was carded I was 28.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:26 PM  

ErinPac: Is this really a surprise?

There are more and more of these older looking kids each year though.  Are they supposed to pick someone who looks 12 and make it super obvious?  The point isn't to see if they think its funny to get the kiddies drunk - it's to see if they're checking ID.


http://www.sla.ny.gov/handbook-for-retail-licenses

And if the bar fights the charge, their 6'6" narc will have to take the stand. And his name will be part of the public record. So he might not be ready to do that...

And even if he is, the jury members could well say "He sure as hell looks 35 to me" and render a not guilty verdict.

Let's see how it goes.
 
2013-02-25 04:56:41 PM  

louiedog: I was at a Walmart (only place open after 10 that's not a bar) buying beer with friends. Because two of us were each buying we thought it'd be faster to go to two lanes. We were talking back and forth and both women manning the checkouts made the whole party walk to each lane to show all IDs to both of them. I understand their policy and needing to ID the entire group, but the whole group needing to do it twice for two purchases? Ridiculous. Maybe they had cops like these around.


I walked in to a Tops at roughly the same time as 2 or 3 younger college kids. The cashier insisted I came in with friends and that they all had to show their IDs too. I told him to check the store and the parking lot, because I was the only person there. Still refused sale.

/Haven't shopped there since
//Was a Tops employee for 3 years
///Tops is barely managing to stay in business for a reason
 
2013-02-25 04:57:29 PM  

LeroyBourne: Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.


Most public school students can't do that level of math at age 18.
 
2013-02-25 04:58:06 PM  

LeroyBourne: Sometimes I use our Cub's liquor store, if I'm getting groceries and realize I'm low on beer. It's weird, they just ask for your date of birth. No ID. I don't get why some kids don't go in there, tell them a fake birthday that puts them over 21.


Back in the dark ages of college the drinking age was 19 (Idaho, early 80's).  There was a pizza joint everybody went to all the time.  Decent pizza, but you really went for the goldfish bowls of beer.  We had gone in multiple times before my 19th birthday, but went in to celebrate.  Show your ID on your birthday and get a free beer.  One of the guys who was with us was an early high school graduate.  So he was 17 at the time.  Wouldn't be 18 until the next month or so.  When we're settling up and he goes to pay the waiter asks him his birthdate.  He was smart enough to subtract a year.  But that just made him 18 not 17.  By that time we were paying and leaving so it was too late anyway.
 
2013-02-25 04:58:56 PM  

mightybaldking: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Who were you working for?


I don't remember their name now. It was a secret shopper company that did all different kinds of shops, but that was the only work I got from them. I remember I had to actually send them a copy of my driver's license to prove that I was over 21, and I guess so they could see if I looked young enough.

That was years ago, and I still can't buy with out ID most of the time. But it seems to me what you order has something to do with it too. If I order a fruity drink, or a really trendy drink, I always get carded. If I order more obscure things they don't always do it.
 
2013-02-25 04:59:55 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


BECAUSE

it's farking stupid
 
2013-02-25 04:59:56 PM  

MNguy: FarFarAway:

I did, and was paid handsomely. I sleep just fine, thanks.

I doubt that.

But I bet you're a heap of fun at parties.


You're right. I'm not handsome. I'm beautiful.
 
2013-02-25 05:00:45 PM  

Uchiha_Cycliste: WHOA whoa whoa whoa WHOA! If I'm in Utah, I can't order myself 2 beers?


It's all farked up. I think you can order a beer and a shot, but you can't order a double(The second shot is a half shot), or they have to serve them side by side and can't combine them. Same kind of weird bullshiat with beer. These enforcement agents maxed out the amount they could order, that much I remember from the story, but since they weren't all actually present when she dropped off the drinks, it was a violation.

Here's one story. I thought it was the one, but it has other examples in it:
http://www.cityweekly.net/utah/article-35-5348-feature-bar-battles-f ig ht-the-dabc-or-give-in-either-way-yoursll-likely-lose.html?current_pag e=1
 
2013-02-25 05:01:31 PM  

FarFarAway: mightybaldking: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Who were you working for?

I don't remember their name now. It was a secret shopper company that did all different kinds of shops, but that was the only work I got from them. I remember I had to actually send them a copy of my driver's license to prove that I was over 21, and I guess so they could see if I looked young enough.

That was years ago, and I still can't buy with out ID most of the time. But it seems to me what you order has something to do with it too. If I order a fruity drink, or a really trendy drink, I always get carded. If I order more obscure things they don't always do it.



I meant, who was the client.  My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits.  It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.
 
2013-02-25 05:02:26 PM  

I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age


or something to that effect.
 
2013-02-25 05:04:48 PM  

carmody: Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.


In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and influenced by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds.

Lautenberg is considered one of the Senate's most liberalmembers. He is pro-choice, supports gun control, has introduced many bills increasing penalties for car jacking and car theft, and criticized the Bush Administration on National Security issues. He has been heavily involved in various anti-smoking and airline safety legislation. He also has co-sponsored legislation to increase drunk driving penalties.
 
2013-02-25 05:05:26 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: kumanoki: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Anyone posted an answer to this yet?

The age at which one is considered a legal adult was 21 for centuries under English common law.  The drinking age was pegged to that standard originally.

Then FDR lowered the minimum conscription age from 21 to 18.  During Viet Nam, kids secured the right to vote at 18 because they could die for their country.  Other adult rights, including drinking, followed suit.  (The draft brought us the blessing of teenaged strippers!)

Drinking-related deaths rose among 18-20 year olds, so the feds forced the age back up to 21.


No, MAAD did that
 
2013-02-25 05:06:14 PM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


In some places the authorities have their operatives go to all lengths to sneak by the systems put in place.  A lot of places have a bouncer system where no one even gets through the door who is under 21, so they use diversion to sneak past them and then bust them for serving a minor.

My guess is that the department(s) were setup to catch the blatant offenders and once they cracked down they have to get more and more sneaky because they don't want to lose their budget/jobs.

Yes, they are getting bartenders fired and possibly closing down businesses just for job security.
 
2013-02-25 05:07:48 PM  

Bullseyed: carmody: Bullseyed: Mostly because of an increase in airbag and seat belt technology, but liberals like to pretend it was because of their activism and increased governmental regulation.

Liberals weren't behind raising the drinking age...insurance companies were.

In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and influenced by Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds.

Lautenberg is considered one of the Senate's most liberalmembers. He is pro-choice, supports gun control, has introduced many bills increasing penalties for car jacking and car theft, and criticized the Bush Administration on National Security issues. He has been heavily involved in various anti-smoking and airline safety legislation. He also has co-sponsored legislation to increase drunk driving penalties.


Yes, thank you.  Of course, in a usual turn, most young libs are for lowering it and most non-libs think it should stay... I mean, in my personal experience
 
2013-02-25 05:07:52 PM  

Cheron: the_sidewinder: y is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

When I was 17 the drinking age was 18 a legacy of Vietnam.  Just before I turned 18 they bumped it to 19 to keep older high school seniors from buy for younger high schoolers.  When I was 19 they moved it to 20 because neighboring states were 20 and we didn't want kids driving long distances for booze.  The just a week before I turned twenty they bumped it to 21 because Ronny Raygun wouldn't give any state with a drinking age under 21 any federal highway dollars.

At 18 you can be drafted, get married, serve on a capital jury, enter into contracts and have kids but you can't have a beer because you aren't mature enough.


Keep bumping the age higher and "voila!": Prohibition all over again.
A few years ago I would have laughed at that thought. Now, not so much.
 
2013-02-25 05:11:37 PM  

Reverend Monkeypants: Yes, thank you.  Of course, in a usual turn, most young libs are for lowering it and most non-libs think it should stay... I mean, in my personal experience


Most young liberals get all their information from the Daily Show and don't know that their own party is the one responsible for the creation of the legislation they are fighting against.

And actually you'd be surprised the number of conservative libertarians there are these days.
 
2013-02-25 05:13:18 PM  
Maybe their "operative"  was a meth head?  That would explain him looking 30.
 
2013-02-25 05:16:10 PM  
Alcohol is responsible for far more deaths than guns each year. You should have to have a background check before each drink, mandatory training, and mandatory insurance.
 
2013-02-25 05:18:12 PM  
When I was growing up they sent in a kid in full army uniform to buy cigarettes that wasn't 18.  No one even thought to card the kid.  Pretty much every store got busted that day.
 
2013-02-25 05:21:20 PM  
FarFarAway:

You're right. I'm not handsome. I'm beautiful.

Maybe on the outside.
 
2013-02-25 05:22:55 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: Alcohol is responsible for far more deaths than guns each year. You should have to have a background check before each drink, mandatory training, and mandatory insurance.


Let's see you kill 20 kids with a can of beer.

false equivalence is false
 
2013-02-25 05:24:07 PM  

mightybaldking: FarFarAway: mightybaldking: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Who were you working for?

I don't remember their name now. It was a secret shopper company that did all different kinds of shops, but that was the only work I got from them. I remember I had to actually send them a copy of my driver's license to prove that I was over 21, and I guess so they could see if I looked young enough.

That was years ago, and I still can't buy with out ID most of the time. But it seems to me what you order has something to do with it too. If I order a fruity drink, or a really trendy drink, I always get carded. If I order more obscure things they don't always do it.


I meant, who was the client.  My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits.  It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.


Ohhh. It was BP one time, and I want to say it was Chevron the other times.
 
2013-02-25 05:24:46 PM  

lordjupiter: As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?


Please note there is no real reason to believe he does look 35, that is just the age that the particular place has a policy not to card potential customers, so as they didn't card him, that is the age they claim he looked.
 
2013-02-25 05:28:40 PM  

super_grass: Lenny_da_Hog: Alcohol is responsible for far more deaths than guns each year. You should have to have a background check before each drink, mandatory training, and mandatory insurance.

Let's see you kill 20 kids with a can of beer.

false equivalence is false


Yeah. 3 times as many die from alcohol-related disease and violence each year, but since it doesn't happen in the same place on the same day, it isn't death. Or something.

Yeast piss is a dangerous, addictive drug. If you want to deal that drug legally, card people like the law tells you to. "I'm worried about the size of my tip" is no excuse for not checking ID.
 
2013-02-25 05:29:11 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


The one I love is: you can buy cigarettes at 18, but no booze until you're 21... Because, you know, cigs are so much better for you, and evil booze is so much worse!
 
2013-02-25 05:31:42 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: super_grass: Lenny_da_Hog: Alcohol is responsible for far more deaths than guns each year. You should have to have a background check before each drink, mandatory training, and mandatory insurance.

Let's see you kill 20 kids with a can of beer.

false equivalence is false

Yeah. 3 times as many die from alcohol-related disease and violence each year, but since it doesn't happen in the same place on the same day, it isn't death. Or something.

Yeast piss is a dangerous, addictive drug. If you want to deal that drug legally, card people like the law tells you to. "I'm worried about the size of my tip" is no excuse for not checking ID.


You  really need a drink.
 
2013-02-25 05:33:10 PM  

super_grass: Lenny_da_Hog: Alcohol is responsible for far more deaths than guns each year. You should have to have a background check before each drink, mandatory training, and mandatory insurance.

Let's see you kill 20 kids with a can of beer.


Does it have to be a full can of beer and do I have to kill them all at once?

/Considering the challenge
 
2013-02-25 05:33:54 PM  

poot_rootbeer: lordjupiter: Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?

Is this a trick question...?  The legal standard is how old they are.

If you sell to somebody who is 19 but looks 35, you've violated the law.  Whining about how "inimidating" and "big" the kid is doesn't change anything.


No shiat.  And how do you know how old they are without checking their ID?  What's the cut-off for looking old enough NOT to have your ID checked?  If the cops are going around trying to trick businesses into serving 19 year olds who LOOK 35, how is that really doing anything to crack down on establishments that are intentionally breaking the law rather than just being fooled by cops?

Again, why do this unless you're saying that businesses have no ability to use discretion in checking someone's ID?  You may as well require an ID check by law if you're trying to fool them based on looks.  Get it now?
 
2013-02-25 05:34:05 PM  

IRQ12: You  really need a drink.


There's so many better drugs.

Alcohol is a ghetto drug. That make that shiat in prison toilets, for crissake.
 
2013-02-25 05:36:41 PM  

Unoriginal_Username: Had a buddy in HS that was our go to guy for booze purchases. he was 16 went from clean shaven to full beard in day or two.


That was me when I was 16. I once got mistaken for a professor with a group of my peers at a Chinese restaurant. -They thought my friends were my students.

Weird thing though, I'm 34 now and if I shave off the beard, I get carded for alcohol, if I leave it on, I'm mistaken for mid-forties still.
 
2013-02-25 05:36:51 PM  

xria: lordjupiter: As for the article, what a bunch of bullshiat.  If they want bars to ID anyone that looks under 40, make that the law.  Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?  How is it reasonable to fine a bar for serving someone who looks almost twice the legal age limit?

Please note there is no real reason to believe he does look 35, that is just the age that the particular place has a policy not to card potential customers, so as they didn't card him, that is the age they claim he looked.


Please not there is no real reason NOT to believe he does look 35.  I'm going by what's in the article.  If there's information beyond that it's speculation.
 
2013-02-25 05:37:27 PM  

RobSeace: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

The one I love is: you can buy cigarettes at 18, but no booze until you're 21... Because, you know, cigs are so much better for you, and evil booze is so much worse!


Ok, 21 for all those things.  Better now?
 
2013-02-25 05:39:53 PM  

lordjupiter: Again, why do this unless you're saying that businesses have no ability to use discretion in checking someone's ID?  You may as well require an ID check by law if you're trying to fool them based on looks.  Get it now?


If their internal policy doesn't require them to check IDs in order to conform with the law that says not to serve people under 21, their policy is in error, obviously. They broke the law. Get it now?

Every time a bar gets busted for under-age or over-serving, they always try to pass the buck onto some other factor.  The point is they're serving a heavily regulated drug, and they're not taking their responsibility with their license seriously.
 
2013-02-25 05:41:05 PM  

RedHeadLover: abfalter: If I were selling liquor I'd check ID for everyone.  I don't care if you looked like Abe Vigoda; you are not getting anything from me until I see ID.

To be fair, Abe looks pretty young for his age...


when 900 years old you reach, look as good you will not
 
2013-02-25 05:42:43 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


We want you to know how to do all of these things before you do any of them drunk.
 
2013-02-25 05:48:53 PM  

Dimensio: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?


That schtick was more original when meow said the dog was doing it. How does it feel to be the Carlos Mencia of fark?
 
2013-02-25 05:50:12 PM  

ringersol: the_sidewinder: "Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?"

Root cause analysis?  Because we can't get from A to B without driving.

/ maybe robot cars will get it lowered back to 18?


It's 18 in Alberta, and we don't have robot cars.
 
2013-02-25 05:51:11 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age

or something to that effect.


Interesting point, although the children, all ages, of personnel military are issued military ID's in order to go to the PX, go to the military hospitals and an absolute must when overseas.  Nice try, but that would be a huge problem.  My wife and her sisters had military ID's till my fil retired from the Navy.
 
2013-02-25 05:52:11 PM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: The 19 year olds who pose for these operations need the shiat beat out of them.


In my town, it is 19 year olds that are coerced into doing as part of their probation for underage drinking
 
2013-02-25 05:55:11 PM  
the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

because the people in power are stupid

// why can't people in some states buy liquor on some days of the week?
 
2013-02-25 05:57:23 PM  

mjohnson71: i


I was stationed at Ft Bliss in '06 when the ban hammer changed the drinking age on post from 18 to 21.  The problem we had were 18 to 20 year old kids (to include a few SSGs) drinking with little to no supervision making stupid decisions involving operating vehicles at high rate of speed.  There were quite a few civilian deaths, and the government was sued for allowing the kids to get drunk. So the regulation allowing underage drinking was changed to 21 and older.  The young troopies thought they could get a DUI and get out of deployment.  They did get out of deployment, and sat in pre-trial confinement until the unit returned (15 months) /or was handed off for civilian trial (El Paso had a minimum of 6 months until arraignment due to backlog).  Several of the ones that happened in 06 and were refered to civilian court were still awaiting trial on no-bond when I retired in March 2010.
 
2013-02-25 05:57:32 PM  

lordargent: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

because the people in power are stupid

// why can't people in some states buy liquor on some days of the week?


Because it would make Jesus cry.
 
2013-02-25 05:57:43 PM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


The kids these days already have ID's that good.  Hell, we reprogrammed mag strips for $20 a pop and that was 10 years ago.  We could make a really good fake in about 20 minutes with the gear our computer lab had sitting around.  The only mildly hard part is the fancy holographic sticker, but even that isn't exactly hard to fake, since almost no place has the security light to check it.  (clubs especially use flashlights to check ID, so it only has to look right from straight on).

Fake ID is old hat.  Using it correctly and without arousing suspicions has always been the hard part.
 
2013-02-25 05:58:23 PM  
So many answers, and a surprising number of useful ones. Thanks all for that insight into US culture
 
2013-02-25 06:00:11 PM  

mightybaldking: I meant, who was the client. My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits. It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.


You would assume wrong. We own two liquor stores and have been subject to sting operations at least once a year by the TABC. We always get a nice letter saying we passed.

It's ok. We don't want to sell underage, sell to those intoxicated, or break any other law. We make a whole lot of money doing it legal.

And having been a teenager, raised teenagers, and lived among teenagers, we don't want waterhead eighteen-year-olds driving and drinking. And the fact that they can and do enlist in the military and die to make Dick Cheney rich just further shows their lapses in judgement.
 
2013-02-25 06:02:57 PM  

Bullseyed: Reverend Monkeypants: Yes, thank you.  Of course, in a usual turn, most young libs are for lowering it and most non-libs think it should stay... I mean, in my personal experience

Most young liberals get all their information from the Daily Show and don't know that their own party is the one responsible for the creation of the legislation they are fighting against.

And actually you'd be surprised the number of conservative libertarians there are these days.


Well.. in their defense, a large number of conservatives are against legislation they enacted as well... Obamacare, the EPA, whatnot.

Regardless, the law is stupid in this regard.  The number of road accidents that don't involve alcohol is exponentially larger than the statistic few that do comparatively.  But do we do mandatory re-testing?  no
 
2013-02-25 06:09:01 PM  

lack of warmth: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age

or something to that effect.

Interesting point, although the children, all ages, of personnel military are issued military ID's in order to go to the PX, go to the military hospitals and an absolute must when overseas.  Nice try, but that would be a huge problem.  My wife and her sisters had military ID's till my fil retired from the Navy.


Forgot about that. What about if they identified the bearer as military PERSONNEL or veterans? Might also incentivise enlistment during desperate periods.
 
2013-02-25 06:09:42 PM  

That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: mightybaldking: I meant, who was the client. My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits. It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.

You would assume wrong. We own two liquor stores and have been subject to sting operations at least once a year by the TABC. We always get a nice letter saying we passed.

It's ok. We don't want to sell underage, sell to those intoxicated, or break any other law. We make a whole lot of money doing it legal.

And having been a teenager, raised teenagers, and lived among teenagers, we don't want waterhead eighteen-year-olds driving and drinking. And the fact that they can and do enlist in the military and die to make Dick Cheney rich just further shows their lapses in judgement.


Was the TABC sending in over 21 year old people that looked younger to see if you carded them? If not then you missed the point mightybaldking was making.
 
2013-02-25 06:11:45 PM  

lordjupiter: RobSeace: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

The one I love is: you can buy cigarettes at 18, but no booze until you're 21... Because, you know, cigs are so much better for you, and evil booze is so much worse!

Ok, 21 for all those things.  Better now?


At least then it would be consistent... So, yes, that would be better!
 
2013-02-25 06:14:53 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because Prudes.
 
2013-02-25 06:17:51 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because MADD is the Women's Christian Temperance Union II, Electric Boogaloo.
 
2013-02-25 06:20:11 PM  

TimonC346: Bullseyed: TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?

So if you don't need ID for exercising rights, you're against checking ID and backgrounds for people buying guns, right?

/boom, headshot

Well, I'm not a moron who would act like owning a device designed for killing is the same as having a voice in government, so no, i'm not. I also wouldn't ever try to simplify all "rights" as always being assured at all times to everyone always.


Since political power springs directly from the power to incarcerate/kill, they're actually one and the same.
 
2013-02-25 06:25:07 PM  

Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.


The speed limit was also lowered to 55 around the same time, mandatory seatbelt laws were passed, and airbags started showing up in cars.  Correlation does not equal causation.

Meanwhile, binge-drinking and drug use among college students has gone up.
 
2013-02-25 06:28:04 PM  

lack of warmth: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age

or something to that effect.

Interesting point, although the children, all ages, of personnel military are issued military ID's in order to go to the PX, go to the military hospitals and an absolute must when overseas.  Nice try, but that would be a huge problem.  My wife and her sisters had military ID's till my fil retired from the Navy.


Those clearly state that the bearer is a Military Dependent, not actually in the military.

TimonC346: Well, I'm not a moron who would act like owning a device designed for killing is the same as having a voice in government, so no, i'm not. I also wouldn't ever try to simplify all "rights" as always being assured at all times to everyone always.


Having a device designed for killing is is the final voice we have in our government. I hope to hell we never need to use it, but it shouldn't be taken away just because we haven't had to use it in the past couple hundred years.

Remember the 4 best ways to influence our government: Public Opinion, Voting, Courts, and Revolution. Always proceed through them in that order. Don't skip steps.
 
2013-02-25 06:28:06 PM  

scottydoesntknow: mjohnson71: most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Have you ever seen that show "What Would You Do?" They had two actors dressed in military fatigues saying they just got back from Iraq. They walk into a bar and try to order a drink. The bartender flat-out refuses. The test was to see if other patrons would buy them alcohol. Most of them either did, or suggested a place that will sell to underage veterans.


I graduated HS in '82 and went into the Army right afterwards. The legal drinking age had just been switched to 21 in my home State BUT they had a grandfather claus allowing folks in the military under-21 to buy booze, go to bars, etc. I'm not sure if that's the case anymore but it was a great way to handle the under-21 situation for active military. At the time, however, I do know that didn't apply to all State's at the time.

/Ft. Ord, 93H, '82-'85
 
2013-02-25 06:28:16 PM  

Rude Turnip: Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.

Wegmans (everyone's favorite grocery store in the Northeast) has a 100% ID policy for alcohol. Everyone must present their ID regardless of age. It's just easier that way and I don't blame them.


Yeah, I spent a summer in Ithaca.  Three of us (all over 21) gave a friendly wave to a 19 year old we worked with two people behind us in line.  They wouldn't sell to us.

Then driving out of there the same damn Wegmans told me it was illegal to buy beer before noon.  My brother's train I was meeting was so damn delayed that I ended up driving to Rochester and figured, what the hell, went into another store at 11:30.  Yeah, it was legal.  Wtf.

I get the 100% ID, I get not wanting to sell to someone who's going to pass it on to a minor. But Christ, God Forbid you speak to them in the store.

/still miss Ithaca Brewing Company
 
2013-02-25 06:29:41 PM  

mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday


I was thinking Hatfields and McCoys here.
 
2013-02-25 06:29:58 PM  
Nothing like having your kid grow up and be a NARC, didn't the commies do this too? Rat out your parents if they weren't being good citizens. They did the same BS with cigarettes too.
 
2013-02-25 06:30:28 PM  
ThatGuyFromTheInternet:
Forgot about that. What about if they identified the bearer as military PERSONNEL or veterans?

I don't know if it change much, since guys I know that served recently didn't have trouble getting beer through their buddies.

Might also incentivise enlistment during desperate periods.

I don't think they have trouble getting volunteers right now.  Whenever the economy is down enlistment goes up.  I think it was second or third year before they started drafting during US involvement in WWII, because the Depression left many searching for work.  I know a young lady that tried very hard to get into the Air Force and failed miserably, which is for the best.  She is expecting her first child now, but we have no idea what she is going to do for a living.  She was betting the farm on a military career.  I have heard of others also failing to enlist.
 
2013-02-25 06:31:46 PM  
I am not sure what to feel now.
The Boobies contained what I thought is the most obviously objectionable part of the governments' entrapment  protection of its citizenry. It was pointed out effectively imho... and it was made by skullkrusher.
 
2013-02-25 06:33:19 PM  

skullkrusher: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

because states want highway money



Thank you.  Short, to the point, and correct.

// Oxford comma, biatches!!!
 
2013-02-25 06:34:18 PM  

That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: mightybaldking: I meant, who was the client. My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits. It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.

You would assume wrong. We own two liquor stores and have been subject to sting operations at least once a year by the TABC. We always get a nice letter saying we passed.

It's ok. We don't want to sell underage, sell to those intoxicated, or break any other law. We make a whole lot of money doing it legal.

And having been a teenager, raised teenagers, and lived among teenagers, we don't want waterhead eighteen-year-olds driving and drinking. And the fact that they can and do enlist in the military and die to make Dick Cheney rich just further shows their lapses in judgement.


Ouch on that last point, but good on you.

I work with a younger kid who grew up a few blocks from my current house.  He will only patronize a particular party store in the area, because they were the only ones who flat out refused to sell him cigarettes when he was a dumbass 14 year old.  Since he's wised up he won't give those who enabled him to pick up a nasty habit for a quick buck a single dime more.

/heart that neighborhood party store
//the owner knows everything and everybody.  Since it's entirely staffed by him, his wife, and occasionally a kid, it figures.  But still impressive.
///'twas a godsend when I got my ID stolen on election day and it took 2 weeks to get a replacement.  I really needed to drink after the local results here, and he stopped IDing me within two weeks of me moving here.
 
2013-02-25 06:37:40 PM  

Gabrielmot: Unoriginal_Username: Had a buddy in HS that was our go to guy for booze purchases. he was 16 went from clean shaven to full beard in day or two.

That was me when I was 16. I once got mistaken for a professor with a group of my peers at a Chinese restaurant. -They thought my friends were my students.

Weird thing though, I'm 34 now and if I shave off the beard, I get carded for alcohol, if I leave it on, I'm mistaken for mid-forties still.


Same here.  41, and if I shave off the beard, instant 20 year old baby face.  I keep it as short and trimmed as possible, but it adds enough years that I don't get carded.
 
2013-02-25 06:39:51 PM  
"The man was 6-foot-6, had a beard, and looked like he was 30"

I wasn't 6' 6", but I had a full bead when I was 16, and I got served in bars on a regular basis because of it. Of course, the drinking age was 18 then.
 
2013-02-25 06:39:55 PM  

Cheron: cgraves67: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because of the binge drinking culture. In countries where drinking is not perceived as negative, people were less likely to consume it to a dangerous extent. When people aren't being dangerous about it, there is less need for legal restrictions.

When I was in college the rule was you could drink what you wanted, smoke what you wanted and sleep with who you wanted just don't  fluent it.  We would regularly by beer on Friday and sit around and talk or go to a party on one of the other floors.  Some one would over do it and get sick but the rest of us were there to help.  This is how I learned to handle my liquor.

After I graduated I was visiting an old roommate who was working as an RA and they had just had an death from alcohol poisoning.  This is something we never heard of and I went to school.  My old roommate told me that instead of having a few beers or play quarters students would drink in private.  Being caught this booze got you kicked you of housing - big deal in Boston.  This didn't stop the drinking it drove it underground.  Buy a pint of a fifth, chug it some where discreet and then party.


I don't think you have to worry; no one is going to accuse you of fluency on the basis of this post.
 
2013-02-25 06:43:06 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Welcome to Obama's America.
 
2013-02-25 06:44:39 PM  
Had someone try to recruit me to be the trap setter. Saving lives...getting criminals...yadadada told him to shove it
 
2013-02-25 06:45:10 PM  

mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday


Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.

/Doesn't mean we're doing it  right, but there is a biologically good reason.
//Now, more effective would be to stop farking romanticizing alcohol and let kids learn to drink with parental supervision like in Europe...
 
2013-02-25 06:49:06 PM  

wild9: I got shot down trying to purchase beer while using my passport as an ID. I was told that I needed to have a state issued form of ID.


I've had my passport rejected, too.  Usually it's because they're too stupid and lazy to find the exp & dob dates.
 
2013-02-25 06:50:42 PM  
The claim in the headline is literally worthless without pics.
 
2013-02-25 06:51:57 PM  

tgambitg: lack of warmth: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: I wonder if the prohibitionists would blink if a bill was submitted to the state leg. somewhere saying:


Any person presenting valid Military or Veteran's Identification shall be entitled to purchase alcohol, regardless of the bearer's age

or something to that effect.

Interesting point, although the children, all ages, of personnel military are issued military ID's in order to go to the PX, go to the military hospitals and an absolute must when overseas.  Nice try, but that would be a huge problem.  My wife and her sisters had military ID's till my fil retired from the Navy.

Those clearly state that the bearer is a Military Dependent, not actually in the military.


I am sure, however if you read his statement it would include any person carrying a military ID, regardless of age.  My wife got hers at birth and had a valid military issued ID for the first 19 years of her life.  I don't have a problem with military personnel having alcohol since the military is a good place to get beer once you get past boot camp.  Drinking in the military is a tradition that I know my dad partook.  He told me once, while operating in a war game in late 1960's Germany, he drove his armored recon vehicle to a village for a beer run.  I have yet to meet a vet (including those who served after 2006) without a drinking story.  Underage drinking is probably more rampant in the military than colleges.  I was just giving ThatGuy a hard time for giving such an open statement.
 
2013-02-25 06:57:03 PM  
All this and no ones commented on the shiatty photoshop picture?gothamist.com
 
2013-02-25 06:59:14 PM  

ShadowWolf: All this and no ones commented on the shiatty photoshop picture?[gothamist.com image 640x341]


Yeah, look, they photoshopped a google street-view arrow onto it!
 
2013-02-25 07:05:24 PM  
anyone got a naked picture of Traci Lords before she was legal? For scientific purposes.
 
2013-02-25 07:07:57 PM  

scottydoesntknow: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because Jesus


Because motor vehicle accidents, actually. It's a highway funds thing. In KS, anyone can drink malt beverages if a parent or legal guardian is present and in WI, anyone can drink if parents or legal guardians are present--you just can't buy it. (Note--fair to assume that parent/legal guardian means your own)

The rule in my house was, "If you're old enough to die for your country, you're old enough to drink if you want to," and so those of us who were in the military were allowed to drink whatever we wanted, wherever we wanted among family. Once, when home on leave at 19, the manager of the restaurant we were in (my parents were regulars) shouted across the bar asking me if I wanted a beer--the restaurant owners were of the same opinion.

It's a ridiculous law in this day and age, especially with the DUI laws that we have. Simply disallow deferred prosecutions and garnish wages for DUI fines. Between the "sin" taxes and DUI fines, the state road budgets would probably come out ahead and the Feds could cut some spending.
 
2013-02-25 07:08:51 PM  
the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

For what reason do you hate the victims of motor vehicle collisions in which a driver was under the influence of alcohol?



Why do you hate freedom?
 
2013-02-25 07:10:58 PM  

Quaker: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

[grassroots.groupon.com image 370x183]


Those farkers are almost worse than drunk drivers. Almost.
 
2013-02-25 07:13:20 PM  
When I was 15 some 17 year olds sent me into a gas station with one of their IDs (the year was right for 18 but he was a few months shy) to buy all cigarettes, because I was 6'2 with a mustache and therefore looked oldest. I was also brown, and they were all white. They insisted it didn't matter because the cashier doesn't look at the photo. Cashier looked at the id and wouldn't sell me the cigarettes. He said I wasnt 18 yet, no mention of the photo being my opposite.
 
2013-02-25 07:14:32 PM  

ShadowWolf: All this and no ones commented on the shiatty photoshop Google streetview picture?[gothamist.com image 640x341]


ftfy.
 
2013-02-25 07:23:34 PM  

scottydoesntknow: Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.

Heh, I got an attendant chewed out one time by her manager. She was this young attendant who insisted I take my I.D. out every time so they can swipe to "verify" it's real. Every attendant there knew me and knew I was 25 (26 now). I played along for a couple weeks as she was new, but after a while I knew she knew who I was because she would laugh and just point at her little "We I.D under 35" sign as soon as I came in. Her manager was there one day and said:
"Do you make him take his license out every time?"
"...yes."
"Stop doing that! I know he looks 16, but you KNOW he's over 18, so stop harassing him because eventually he'll stop coming in."

She stopped doing it after that.


Had a place in TX did that to me: wouldn't accept my military ID because it didn't have a magnetic stripe and couldn't be scanned (mine's the orange one because I'm a disabled vet. We get the "you're a broke-ass soldier so fark you, you don't get the shiny new ones" old style dependent IDs, even though they list us as the sponsor and an INDEF expiry date). TX law states they have to take it, but they refused. So after they told me they weren't going to take it & I needed a TX driver's license for them to sell me smokes and I told them that TX law states otherwise and they told me not to tell them what they had to do, I went ahead and let the TX attorney general tell them instead. Jackasses.
 
2013-02-25 07:24:42 PM  
What is this... Google Streetview you speak of? It seems like black magic to me.
 
2013-02-25 07:25:39 PM  

HindiDiscoMonster: IMHO, if you can die for your country, you should be able to legally drink in it.


Nobody in the military has died for their country in the last fifty years. They've died for politics and money.
 
2013-02-25 07:27:19 PM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


Yes.
 
2013-02-25 07:27:46 PM  
Damn narcs!
 
2013-02-25 07:30:55 PM  
Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.

In my state its state law that they have to ID EVERYONE, even if you are a senior whose grandkids are old enough to buy booze.
 
2013-02-25 07:32:49 PM  

PsiChick: mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday

Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.

/Doesn't mean we're doing it  right, but there is a biologically good reason.
//Now, more effective would be to stop farking romanticizing alcohol and let kids learn to drink with parental supervision like in Europe...


Hate to tell ya sweet cheeks, but improperly handled guns and automobiles most certainly do have lethal effects...and most states give automobiles to idiots as young as 16. FL used to give them to idiots as young as 14. Might wanna back up and check your facts. Out of 8 things listed, half can be lethal but usually are not when used/done properly: guns, cars, alcohol, and serving your country.

That would be why I have you highlighted in bright red. Take advice (Incorrectly) attributed to Mark Twain:  http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/
 
2013-02-25 07:41:32 PM  

scottydoesntknow: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because Jesus


Jesus drank younger than 21. He didn't do anything to mess it up for the rest of us, either. People were drinking at younger ages only a century or so ago. Might as well blame Woodrow Wilson.

/I blame Woodrow Wilson.
 
2013-02-25 07:42:39 PM  

TimonC346: Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.

One is a right. One isn't. We done here?


So you shouldn't need ID to buy a gun?  That's a right.
 
2013-02-25 07:43:48 PM  

scottydoesntknow: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Because Jesus


No. Jesus was cool with the drink. Hell, the first thing he did in the Bible was to get an entire party drunk. It's the Christ-was-a-white-boy Puritans who can't seem to understand it.
 
2013-02-25 07:48:03 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: lordjupiter: Again, why do this unless you're saying that businesses have no ability to use discretion in checking someone's ID?  You may as well require an ID check by law if you're trying to fool them based on looks.  Get it now?

If their internal policy doesn't require them to check IDs in order to conform with the law that says not to serve people under 21, their policy is in error, obviously. They broke the law. Get it now?

Every time a bar gets busted for under-age or over-serving, they always try to pass the buck onto some other factor.  The point is they're serving a heavily regulated drug, and they're not taking their responsibility with their license seriously.



The "law is the law if you break it it's your fault" angle is the presumed trump card in all discussions about potential police entrapment efforts.  But it doesn't make you right.  I've already explained (twice) why this particular brand of ENFORCEMENT is particularly UNFAIR and inconsistent with reasonable intent, however technically legal.  So yeah, I get it, but I don't think you do.
 
2013-02-25 07:50:47 PM  

lack of warmth: ThatGuyFromTheInternet:
Forgot about that. What about if they identified the bearer as military PERSONNEL or veterans?

I don't know if it change much, since guys I know that served recently didn't have trouble getting beer through their buddies.

Might also incentivise enlistment during desperate periods.

I don't think they have trouble getting volunteers right now.  Whenever the economy is down enlistment goes up.  I think it was second or third year before they started drafting during US involvement in WWII, because the Depression left many searching for work.  I know a young lady that tried very hard to get into the Air Force and failed miserably, which is for the best.  She is expecting her first child now, but we have no idea what she is going to do for a living.  She was betting the farm on a military career.  I have heard of others also failing to enlist.


Hey, I got blackballed too, merely referring to a hypothetical need. Not that that would be the main reasoning, just a fringe benefit of such law.

lack of warmth: I am sure, however if you read his statement it would include any person carrying a military ID, regardless of age. My wife got hers at birth and had a valid military issued ID for the first 19 years of her life. I don't have a problem with military personnel having alcohol since the military is a good place to get beer once you get past boot camp. Drinking in the military is a tradition that I know my dad partook. He told me once, while operating in a war game in late 1960's Germany, he drove his armored recon vehicle to a village for a beer run. I have yet to meet a vet (including those who served after 2006) without a drinking story. Underage drinking is probably more rampant in the military than colleges. I was just giving ThatGuy a hard time for giving such an open statement.


I clarified above, not parsing the degrees of military identification. Obviously such a law would have to be written for only personnel and vets.
 
2013-02-25 07:53:05 PM  
I would never look 35

/She looked 19 she said!
 
2013-02-25 07:59:28 PM  

Burr: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Minimum_Drinking_Age_Act#Histo ry

"In 1984, the National Minimum Legal Drinking Act, written by Senator  (D-NJ) and influenced by  (MADD), required all states to enforce a minimum legal drinking age of 21 or else risk losing 10% of all federal highway construction funds."

So, a Democrat and M.A.D.D. threatening to take money away are to blame (though I would like to see the voting record for that legislation, my google-fu is lacking)


Look up Tipper Gore. See what passes for Not very fascist these day's, I've said it before and will say it again Obama is somewhat right of Regan, It's why I often have no idea what you fark idiots are talking about
 
2013-02-25 08:00:00 PM  
I created a White House Petition to fix this:

http://wh.gov/veHW

Sign and/or pass around if you see fit.
 
2013-02-25 08:02:01 PM  

lordjupiter: The "law is the law if you break it it's your fault" angle is the presumed trump card in all discussions about potential police entrapment efforts.  But it doesn't make you right.  I've already explained (twice) why this particular brand of ENFORCEMENT is particularly UNFAIR and inconsistent with reasonable intent, however technically legal.  So yeah, I get it, but I don't think you do.


It's *always* soooo unfair! What an unjust world! A guy gets a license to sell alcohol, knows that part of that license includes strict regulatory control enforced by secret buyers, and then gets busted by a secret buyer!

It's so unfaiiiiiir!

That kid could have come in on his own, and would have looked the same. The fact is they served someone without checking ID, and he was underage. Saying "he didn't look his age" applies to lots of people. That's why you check IDs in the first place.
 
2013-02-25 08:02:29 PM  

Aigoo: PsiChick: mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday

Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.

/Doesn't mean we're doing it  right, but there is a biologically good reason.
//Now, more effective would be to stop farking romanticizing alcohol and let kids learn to drink with parental supervision like in Europe...

Hate to tell ya sweet cheeks, but improperly handled guns and automobiles most certainly do have lethal effects...and most states give automobiles to idiots as young as 16. FL used to give them to idiots as young as 14. Might wanna back up and check your facts. Out of 8 things listed, half can be lethal but usually are not when used/done properly: guns, cars, alcohol, and serving your country.

That would be why I have you highlighted in bright red. Take advice (Incorrectly) attributed to Mark Twain:  http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/17/remain-silent/


Porn can be lethal too. HIV...
 
2013-02-25 08:03:00 PM  

FarFarAway: mightybaldking: FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.

Who were you working for?

I don't remember their name now. It was a secret shopper company that did all different kinds of shops, but that was the only work I got from them. I remember I had to actually send them a copy of my driver's license to prove that I was over 21, and I guess so they could see if I looked young enough.

That was years ago, and I still can't buy with out ID most of the time. But it seems to me what you order has something to do with it too. If I order a fruity drink, or a really trendy drink, I always get carded. If I order more obscure things they don't always do it.


Jameson. Neat.  Haven't been carded in years. Also, I'm 6'3 with a full beard and in a wheelchair, so that might have something to do with it.
 
2013-02-25 08:13:09 PM  

VGA Hole: I created a White House Petition to fix this:

http://wh.gov/veHW


That'll show em. You should follow that up with a sternly-worded letter.
 
2013-02-25 08:23:39 PM  
I was able to drink at 18 because 18 was the drinking age. It is just too bad that our generation screwed it up for the younger generation...but oh well...we had our fun...and it was fun. Going to discos and clubs to find the chicks at 18 was a blast!!!
 
2013-02-25 08:31:27 PM  

treesloth: I know this term gets misused a lot, so I'm not saying this lightly... I think there might be a case for entrapment here. From the NY State Code:


Thing is, the kid is a representative of the NYPD.  If you don't serve him, you might get a beat down and go to jail for disobeying a police order?
 
2013-02-25 08:42:07 PM  

Big Man On Campus: Once again...

To order beer, I have to show an official state-issued form of Identification.

To vote for all levels of government, I simply have to state a name that someone then checks off the list.

Yet people are considered backwards if they suggest IDs should be displayed to vote.


Probably because most of the people who suggest that IDs should be displayed to vote also, in the same breath, suggest that IDs should be very difficult to get in the first place by cutting DMV hours at some offices, closing others and prohibiting DMV employees from telling very poor applicants that they can get a non-driver's ID for free if they can't afford to pay the $28 fee.

Or they make some IDs more equal than others by explicitly prohibiting the use of college IDs for voting purposes while allowing gun permits to be used.

And then there's the fact that it's a solution in search of a problem, since there have been fewer than 20 cases of voter fraud over the past decade (in a country with over 100,000,000 voters) which could have been prevented through the implementation of voter ID laws -- and most of them have been GOP operatives actively trying to commit voter fraud for the sake of proving the "problem" exists, just so that the voter ID laws can be passed to put another hoop for college students and the working poor to jump through.
 
2013-02-25 08:46:50 PM  

ShadowWolf: All this and no ones commented on the shiatty photoshop picture?[gothamist.com image 640x341]


it's not. that's from panorama-mode blur during restitching. it's legit.
 
2013-02-25 08:48:22 PM  

piglet: I am not sure what to feel now.
The Boobies contained what I thought is the most obviously objectionable part of the governments' entrapment  protection of its citizenry. It was pointed out effectively imho... and it was made by skullkrusher.


that dude's like a genius or something. You should listen to what he says at all times.
 
2013-02-25 08:56:24 PM  

the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?


Because guns, duh!
 
2013-02-25 09:12:00 PM  

mjohnson71: I still bartend part time and am a hard carding motherfarker.


I worked in the service industry for almost 20 years, and I never checked a single ID.  Of course, I generally worked in either very high-end places where there was pretty much no chance of a raid, or clubs where everyone was carded at the door.
 
2013-02-25 09:42:38 PM  

Lenny_da_Hog: lordjupiter: The "law is the law if you break it it's your fault" angle is the presumed trump card in all discussions about potential police entrapment efforts.  But it doesn't make you right.  I've already explained (twice) why this particular brand of ENFORCEMENT is particularly UNFAIR and inconsistent with reasonable intent, however technically legal.  So yeah, I get it, but I don't think you do.

It's *always* soooo unfair! What an unjust world! A guy gets a license to sell alcohol, knows that part of that license includes strict regulatory control enforced by secret buyers, and then gets busted by a secret buyer!

It's so unfaiiiiiir!

That kid could have come in on his own, and would have looked the same. The fact is they served someone without checking ID, and he was underage. Saying "he didn't look his age" applies to lots of people. That's why you check IDs in the first place.


riveraveblues.com
 
2013-02-25 09:50:00 PM  

lordjupiter: Lenny_da_Hog: lordjupiter: The "law is the law if you break it it's your fault" angle is the presumed trump card in all discussions about potential police entrapment efforts.  But it doesn't make you right.  I've already explained (twice) why this particular brand of ENFORCEMENT is particularly UNFAIR and inconsistent with reasonable intent, however technically legal.  So yeah, I get it, but I don't think you do.

It's *always* soooo unfair! What an unjust world! A guy gets a license to sell alcohol, knows that part of that license includes strict regulatory control enforced by secret buyers, and then gets busted by a secret buyer!

It's so unfaiiiiiir!

That kid could have come in on his own, and would have looked the same. The fact is they served someone without checking ID, and he was underage. Saying "he didn't look his age" applies to lots of people. That's why you check IDs in the first place.

[riveraveblues.com image 235x206]


It's not entrapment if it's not entrapment. Technically legal is the best kind of legal.

The intent was to serve booze. The license says they have to protect that booze from getting into the hands of minors. They did it wrong.
 
2013-02-25 09:54:25 PM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


Except of course there are 19-year-olds who look like this.  That's exactly the point of why you are supposed to card everyone without dentures, not to make cougars blush and smile.  There are really two separate issues- bars that sell to anyone no matter what age because they want to, and bars that are careless.  This is exactly how you catch the bars that are careless.

(My brother was going bald by 18.  He worked for the local supermarket chain.  They'd use him sometimes for in store stings.  They figured it was better if the store caught them than the po-po.)
 
2013-02-25 10:07:38 PM  
Oh Good God.  In all airports on US soil, it is a requirement to present identification if you wish to purchase alcohol.  Doesn't matter if you're 90 years old and in a wheelchair.  The law is simple- everyone.  (Once watched a very pissed of old guy arguing about this)  When the law states that anyone under 30, or 35- it's pretty obvious.  Get over yourselves and your alcohol drinking age bashing.  If you are of age, (or like me, 41)  It totally makes my day when I get carded.  I don't care if I do have to go grab it out of my rig.

Alcohol and youth in drinking establishments impairs judgement.  In my 20's, mine was questionable.  In my teens, damn near nonexistent.

Card the farking people, already!
 
2013-02-25 10:11:37 PM  

HoratioGates: skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?

Except of course there are 19-year-olds who look like this.  That's exactly the point of why you are supposed to card everyone without dentures, not to make cougars blush and smile.  There are really two separate issues- bars that sell to anyone no matter what age because they want to, and bars that are careless.  This is exactly how you catch the bars that are careless.

(My brother was going bald by 18.  He worked for the local supermarket chain.  They'd use him sometimes for in store stings.  They figured it was better if the store caught them than the po-po.)


yeah I guess you have a point. Just seems counterproductive unless this dude also has 5 or 6 friends who are also freakishly large and old looking for their age, he's just gonna be drinking by himself all the time. Bust the ones who are in flagrant violation. Of course, I can't get all worked up over an 19 year old dude having a few drinks at a bar so meh
 
2013-02-25 10:12:40 PM  

chaoticcrash: Oh Good God.  In all airports on US soil, it is a requirement to present identification if you wish to purchase alcohol.  Doesn't matter if you're 90 years old and in a wheelchair.  The law is simple- everyone.  (Once watched a very pissed of old guy arguing about this)  When the law states that anyone under 30, or 35- it's pretty obvious.  Get over yourselves and your alcohol drinking age bashing.  If you are of age, (or like me, 41)  It totally makes my day when I get carded.  I don't care if I do have to go grab it out of my rig.

Alcohol and youth in drinking establishments impairs judgement.  In my 20's, mine was questionable.  In my teens, damn near nonexistent.

Card the farking people, already!


if you're driving a rig, do you REALLY need to be having some drinks?
 
2013-02-25 10:14:34 PM  

VGA Hole: I created a White House Petition to fix this:

http://wh.gov/veHW

Sign and/or pass around if you see fit.


LOL!  Really?

I'll be over here, not signing this.  Make one that states nobody should text and drive, and I might... Oh, wait- is already illegal, and every damn kid in a car, driving or not, is buried in a phone..
 
2013-02-25 10:39:56 PM  
I used to go to the liquor store for my grandfather and buy him a quart of Old Pyle when I was 12. Ah the good old days of the 80's. Pfft
 
2013-02-25 10:48:18 PM  

King Something: Probably because most of the people who suggest that IDs should be displayed to vote also, in the same breath, suggest that IDs should be very difficult to get in the first place by cutting DMV hours at some offices, closing others and prohibiting DMV employees from telling very poor applicants that they can get a non-driver's ID for free if they can't afford to pay the $28 fee.

Or they make some IDs more equal than others by explicitly prohibiting the use of college IDs for voting purposes while allowing gun permits to be used.

And then there's the fact that it's a solution in search of a problem, since there have been fewer than 20 cases of voter fraud over the past decade (in a country with over 100,000,000 voters) which could have been prevented through the implementation of voter ID laws -- and most of them have been GOP operatives actively trying to commit voter fraud for the sake of proving the "problem" exists, just so that the voter ID laws can be passed to put another hoop for college students and the working poor to jump through.


I'm all for identity verification when voting. I'm also in favor of free IDs that are legal for identification purposes (like a non-DL ID card). Anything that has photo and name that is issued by a certified authority is ok by me. Make sure these IDs are easy to get and low cost with free alternatives. Also, IDs checked for all alcohol purchases. IDs ran for gun purchases. Basically make sure they aren't barred from having a gun and that's it. I'm also for Shall-Issue CCW permits. Pretty much freedom unless you've proven you can't handle it. Commit a violent act, you lose the right to own violent weapons. I'd also like to see better mental health care, as well as better medical care in this country. Single payer is okay by me as long as it's set up correctly. ('Obamacare' was a shiatty try), I jive that with the government providing for the general welfare of the nation. That's constitutional authority.
 
2013-02-25 10:52:14 PM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


The point is to get them to check ID rather than just go on appearances.

FarFarAway: I've done secret shopper assignments like this before. But they always specified that you had to be over 21 and look younger. That way if the sale went through, no laws were actually broken. I never managed to talk anyone into selling it to me without ID.


Yeah, if the store is testing they have to use someone of legal age.  The police can use an underage person, though.
 
2013-02-25 11:05:52 PM  

Atomic Spunk: The convenience stores in my neighborhood get busted selling alcohol to underage people every once in a while, so they started to have the employees at the checkout wear a button that says "We ID under 30". Then that changed to "We ID under 40". The last time they wore buttons, it says "Please don't take offense - we ID everyone". Now they don't wear buttons, and even senior citizens that look like they have one foot in the grave are asked for ID when buying alcohol.


I knew a server who went out of his way to card women who were obviously in their forties. When they would say "wha...?" he would quip "well you do look young, can't be too careful"

He made some nice tips from those flattered cougars.
 
2013-02-25 11:14:49 PM  

carmody: That's how I once got a job at an adult bookstore...the city sent in a bearded 17-year-old to rent a porno DVD (the minimum age requirement here is 18) and the clerk got fired for renting it to him. Cops got nothing better to do, I suppose.


It's as if they get paid to enforce the laws or some such incomprehensible doo-dally
 
2013-02-25 11:26:21 PM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


  It's to teach that appropriate civil disobedience is not evil.  In addition, it gives the adults a bit more time to stay away from the kids.  3 years seems like... not enough.  :D
 
2013-02-26 12:20:11 AM  

wild9: I got shot down trying to purchase beer while using my passport as an ID. I was told that I needed to have a state issued form of ID.


That your passport doesn't work is bizarre, why would that be?
 
2013-02-26 12:25:53 AM  

Ikam: wild9: I got shot down trying to purchase beer while using my passport as an ID. I was told that I needed to have a state issued form of ID.

That your passport doesn't work is bizarre, why would that be?


Only explanation: the sales clerk was an idiot who didn't know the law. (A passport is always good.)
 
2013-02-26 01:10:52 AM  

poot_rootbeer: lordjupiter: Otherwise, what's the legal standard, if not how young someone LOOKS?

Is this a trick question...?  The legal standard is how old they are.

If you sell to somebody who is 19 but looks 35, you've violated the law.  Whining about how "inimidating" and "big" the kid is doesn't change anything.


The states I'm familiar with like Indiana require ID'ing if someone appears younger than a certain age (35 in Indiana iirc). You can't sell if they are below 21 but you also can't sell if they look under a certain higher age and can't produce a government-issued photo ID proving date of birth. Both requirements must be satisfied.
 
2013-02-26 02:29:15 AM  
When I was a junior / senior in high school I used to get booze by not shaving for a couple of days, and hitting the liquor stores dressed in a jacket, slacks, slightly wrinkled long sleeve shirt, and wearing a tie pulled loose / top button undone. I'd hit a store close to downtown business district at 5:30 on a Friday afternoon. I'd carry my money in a money clip so if asked for ID I could say, "Sh*t, it's in my checkbook."

/Worked like a charm; only three or four times did I ever have to try a second store.
 
2013-02-26 02:36:31 AM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


I wouldn't be against an effort to raise the age of adulthood to 21.  Our "adults" under age 21 are often utter morons.  Although, if you can drive at car at 16, you should be able to purchase porn at that age, too.
 
HBK
2013-02-26 02:41:14 AM  

Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: The 19 year olds who pose for these operations need the shiat beat out of them.


CSB:

When I was a 17/18 year old high school senior, I was in the journalism class. My school had a pretty legitimate newspaper, so it wasn't only fluff pieces and sports- although there was a lot of that. The teacher pulled me aside one day and said "so, you know where to get beer and liquor around here... will you write a story about the places that sell to students?"

I refused, "if I expose the places that sell, then where will we buy our drinks?"

The asshole teacher even went as far as to threaten me with a D if I didn't write the piece. Luckily the school stepped in and I was moved out of that class.

That was when I realized that adults were not to be trusted and that refusing to be a snitch was worth a bad grade in a stupid high school class.
 
2013-02-26 05:09:11 AM  

skullkrusher: this sort of defeats the purpose of these sorts of things. You want to prevent bars from serving underaged kids but do you really want to trick them into serving underaged kids? What's next, sending them in with outstanding fake ID made by the DMV?


What's the problem? Some teens look older than they really are. This is why I was regularly carded until I was about 40.

$1500 fine? Pfft. I remember once a store clerk asked for an ID to buy beer. I didn't complain but I guess the look on my face read slightly annoyed. She said - and I quote "I sorry. I been to jail before.". I don't think English was her first language

If I owned a liquor store, I'm not sure a $1500 fine would be a very big deterrent against selling to minors. In fact, I'd probably encourage it at that price.

Getting arrested? That's a huge deterrent. Losing your liquor license, which can happen in most states after several violations, that's an even bigger deterrent.

You can argue about whether or not people under 21 should be allowed to buy alcohol all you want, but that's the farking law.

A liquor license (for a store) is about a half million dollars around here and that's probably cheap compared to some parts of the country. If you get one, you've basically got a gold mine. Don't fark it up.
 
2013-02-26 05:15:23 AM  

skullkrusher: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

because states want highway money


No, it's because MADD.

It's the same reason every time I drive after having more than a single beer I'm probably violating the law.

Some people think I'm a bad person because I'll drink a few beers and get behind the wheel. I say fark 'em. Catch me motherfarkers. I'm the guy not causing any accidents.

BTW, the law here is 0.05 BAC and that is in the US.

0.05 is BS. Even 0.08 is BS.

Put it back to at least 0.1 and give citizens a way to measure their BAC before they violate the law and get back to me.
 
2013-02-26 05:28:30 AM  

mjohnson71: meyerkev: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Why it's X in every state - The feds cut all federal highway funding to a state unless certain state laws match requirements.  The drinking age is one of them.
Why X is 21 - Dunno
Why X is over 18 - They didn't like having high schoolers show up for school drunk.

They should change the law to say 18 + high school diploma = legal to drink.


I've floated this idea a few times before but not many people seem to like it.

18 is probably old enough to drink, but I'd prefer people at least graduate from high school before they turn into drunks.
 
2013-02-26 05:46:02 AM  

lack of warmth: I think it was second or third year before they started drafting during US involvement in WWII, because the Depression left many searching for work.


IIRC the draft started before we entered the war. Wikipedia agrees.
 
2013-02-26 05:59:56 AM  

FSTFKL: Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

The speed limit was also lowered to 55 around the same time, mandatory seatbelt laws were passed, and airbags started showing up in cars.  Correlation does not equal causation.


Uh, no. Not even close.

The national speed limit used the same extortionist tactics as the mandatory national drinking age of 21 but 55 was implemented in 1973. That national drinking age wasn't passed until 1984.

Have you ever been in a car manufactured in the early '70s (or before)?

The thought of crashing in an old car is absolutely terrifying to me. Safety was not much of a consideration. There were no airbags. Crumple zones were just a pipe dream of some engineer. If you crashed in a 1973 whatever you were definitely going to get hurt if not killed. If you crash today, chances are you'll walk away from it just fine.

And seat belts and air bags were both implemented decades apart. I didn't have an airbag in my car until the '90s. I'm not old enough to remember cars without seat belts.

Your general point that a decrease in traffic fatalities probably has more to do with advances in auto safety rather than a national drinking age is correct, but you completely fail regarding the time line of seat belts, national speed limit, national drinking age and airbags.
 
2013-02-26 06:18:10 AM  

Lenny_da_Hog: lordjupiter: Lenny_da_Hog: lordjupiter: The "law is the law if you break it it's your fault" angle is the presumed trump card in all discussions about potential police entrapment efforts.  But it doesn't make you right.  I've already explained (twice) why this particular brand of ENFORCEMENT is particularly UNFAIR and inconsistent with reasonable intent, however technically legal.  So yeah, I get it, but I don't think you do.

It's *always* soooo unfair! What an unjust world! A guy gets a license to sell alcohol, knows that part of that license includes strict regulatory control enforced by secret buyers, and then gets busted by a secret buyer!

It's so unfaiiiiiir!

That kid could have come in on his own, and would have looked the same. The fact is they served someone without checking ID, and he was underage. Saying "he didn't look his age" applies to lots of people. That's why you check IDs in the first place.

[riveraveblues.com image 235x206]

It's not entrapment if it's not entrapment. Technically legal is the best kind of legal.

The intent was to serve booze. The license says they have to protect that booze from getting into the hands of minors. They did it wrong.


And, as I said, what's the business supposed to do if the cops keep trying to TRICK them into serving it to minors?  ID everyone?  Then why not make the law "ID everyone"?  How many times does this have to be explained?

Have you ever managed a business that served alcohol?  What was your ID policy?
 
2013-02-26 06:25:47 AM  
This is similar to putting a short section of 35mph speed limit on a road that's normally 65mph, strictly for the purpose of catching speeders, and setting speed traps at that spot.  Even worse, the 35mph sign is disguised to LOOK like a 50mph sign, and if you're not looking for it you won't even see it.

Is that "justice"?

Understanding that what's legal isn't always right is a sign of more nuanced and advanced cognition that's related to the empathy circuit, as measured in neurological studies.  But I think many people who are capable of making these distinctions simply don't do so for personal reasons.
 
2013-02-26 06:59:50 AM  

lordjupiter: And, as I said, what's the business supposed to do if the cops keep trying to TRICK them into serving it to minors?  ID everyone?  Then why not make the law "ID everyone"?  How many times does this have to be explained?

Have you ever managed a business that served alcohol?  What was your ID policy?


It's pretty simple actually. If I owned a liquor store or a bar, I would tell my employees if there's even a remote chance that they're underage to card them.

The only people who complain about being carded are probably only about 22 anyway. Unless you're one of my former co-workers who complained because he was about 60 and wanted to get a beer at Hooters and they had a farking sign posted saying they even carded George Burns.

It takes about 2 seconds for someone to show their ID.

If you have saggy tits, grey hair or wrinkled skin I wouldn't card you, but otherwise just show me your ID.

lordjupiter: This is similar to putting a short section of 35mph speed limit on a road that's normally 65mph, strictly for the purpose of catching speeders, and setting speed traps at that spot.  Even worse, the 35mph sign is disguised to LOOK like a 50mph sign, and if you're not looking for it you won't even see it.


That isn't even remotely similar. Liquor licenses are extremely valuable. If you have one it's your responsibility to abide by the law. It's hard to judge someone's age just by looking at them. If you can't be 100% certain they're over 21 you should probably card them.

It might help if the article had a picture of the guy, but I've known people who were tall and had full beards who were under 21. Most liquor stores know cops run these types of operations. There's really no excuse for selling to a minor.
 
2013-02-26 07:04:35 AM  

lordjupiter: This is similar to putting a short section of 35mph speed limit on a road that's normally 65mph, strictly for the purpose of catching speeders, and setting speed traps at that spot.  Even worse, the 35mph sign is disguised to LOOK like a 50mph sign, and if you're not looking for it you won't even see it..


Oh, and please explain how you "disguise" a 35 MPH sign to look like a 50 MPH sign. The numbers are different. Everything else is the same.

Highway codes dictate the size and style of lettering. There is no way to "disguise" a 35 MPH sign as a 50 MPH sign and if you're not looking at signs when you're driving you shouldn't be on the road.
 
2013-02-26 07:07:43 AM  

PsiChick: mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive

-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday

Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.


Really? Seriously? You want to stick with that answer?

/Also, you can buy cigarettes at 18... I hear tell those things'll kill ya, too...
 
2013-02-26 07:33:05 AM  

RobSeace: Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.


Really? Seriously? You want to stick with that answer?

/Also, you can buy cigarettes at 18... I hear tell those things'll kill ya, too...


Voting can potentially have lethal effects too. Ask any dead Iraqi or any US serviceman who died in Iraq.

So can sex if you are not careful.

But PsiChick makes a good point - a common one brought up in arguments about drinking age but I have never seen it convincingly countered.

I don't really care what the drinking age is. It doesn't affect me personally, but I kind of like the fact that most bars I go to don't allow teens to drink there - not because I think teens are irresponsible (even though I do think that) but more because I don't like hanging out with a bunch of teens.

But yeah, if you can carry a gun into combat, why shouldn't you be allowed to have a beer?

If you are old enough to let Max Hardcore do unspeakable things to you, why shouldn't you be allowed to have a beer?

Sure, they sent Max Hardcore to prison, but I don't think any of the actresses he used were even arrested and unless I'm mistaken all of them were at least 18 ad were considered adults.

If your brain not being developed until your in your mid-20s is a valid reason to prevent someone from drinking, then it should be a valid reason to keep 18 year olds out of the army and also out of porn.

The national drinking age got pushed through because of a huge push by MADD. It's a form of prohibition. They saw the failure when they tried to prohibit alcohol from everyone, but by golly they got enough clout to prevent anyone under 21 from drinking....except they didn't.

This form of prohibition is also a failure. I remember how it was. I sometimes had difficulty getting alcohol when I was under 21 but usually it didn't stop me. Whether it was a store clerk who just didn't to bother to card me or an older friend who bought it for me or just some party where they didn't care I got drunk a lot when I was under 21.

And if the reason is your brain isn't fully developed until your mid-20s why isn't the drinking age 25?
 
2013-02-26 07:53:51 AM  

Happy Hours: lordjupiter: And, as I said, what's the business supposed to do if the cops keep trying to TRICK them into serving it to minors?  ID everyone?  Then why not make the law "ID everyone"?  How many times does this have to be explained?

Have you ever managed a business that served alcohol?  What was your ID policy?

It's pretty simple actually. If I owned a liquor store or a bar, I would tell my employees if there's even a remote chance that they're underage to card them.

The only people who complain about being carded are probably only about 22 anyway. Unless you're one of my former co-workers who complained because he was about 60 and wanted to get a beer at Hooters and they had a farking sign posted saying they even carded George Burns.

It takes about 2 seconds for someone to show their ID.

If you have saggy tits, grey hair or wrinkled skin I wouldn't card you, but otherwise just show me your ID.

lordjupiter: This is similar to putting a short section of 35mph speed limit on a road that's normally 65mph, strictly for the purpose of catching speeders, and setting speed traps at that spot.  Even worse, the 35mph sign is disguised to LOOK like a 50mph sign, and if you're not looking for it you won't even see it.

That isn't even remotely similar. Liquor licenses are extremely valuable. If you have one it's your responsibility to abide by the law. It's hard to judge someone's age just by looking at them. If you can't be 100% certain they're over 21 you should probably card them.

It might help if the article had a picture of the guy, but I've known people who were tall and had full beards who were under 21. Most liquor stores know cops run these types of operations. There's really no excuse for selling to a minor.



So you've never run a business that had to deal with this, but you think you know the ins and outs?

You and the other guy have repeatedly missed the point.  What is your standard for how old someone LOOKS?  The article claims this guy looked 35 years old.  YOU could've been fooled as well, based on your subjective standards.  What if you tell your employees "card everyone who looks under 65, no exceptions", and the cops then send in a 20 year old dolled up to look like an old man?  Is that "justice"?  Is that weeding out liquor license holders who are intentionally disobeying the law, or being irresponsible?

At what point are you safe in going by appearance?  The only answer is to require ID for everyone, and for the fourth time, if cops are going to try and trick businesses into selling minors based on appearance they may as well just make ID required by law for EVERYONE and test that.  Otherwise they're nailing people who have served a sneaky cop who looked legal, and they haven't proved any intent to break the law.

Is the law designed to discourage businesses from selling to minors?  Then why not require ID for everyone if you're going to be deceptive in the appearance of your agents.  At least then, with a "No ID, no booze" law you remove the issue people have with being carded while their ID is elsewhere, as is the case with some establishments that serve drinks but are not specifically liquor stores.

And that's what you and the other guy don't understand.  Businesses that serve drinks as a secondary part of their business (restaurant, entertainment) are put into a position where they have to make a judgment call whether to serve someone based on appearance if they don't have ID or forgot it.  It can turn into an ugly situation and cost you business from LEGAL customers in the future, even though you're TRYING to obey the law.  The business is forced to decide whether to go by the person's appearance, or require an ID to be produced.  It also introduces the problem of whether or not to serve others in the party of the person who failed to produce ID.  Are they going to give the guy some beer, even though he doesn't have ID?  Are you going to be responsible?

If the law requires ID for ALL, regardless of age, then people know they have to show ID and the impetus is removed from the business establishment.

(as for the speeding thing, it doesn't matter what highway standards are for signs, it's an analogy about intentionally concealing relevant information in a legal matter related to licensing and police enforcement.)
 
2013-02-26 07:55:24 AM  

mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?


Because, do you want someone doing all that stuff for the first time while drunk? I think not.
 
2013-02-26 07:56:36 AM  

MythDragon: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Because, do you want someone doing all that stuff for the first time while drunk? I think not.


yes.  only stoned.
that's why getting stoned is allowed for ALL ages
 
2013-02-26 07:59:52 AM  
What's next?
in-this-economy.com

"Heeeeellloooooooooo! Do you know what us adults like? Alcohol! Give me some alcohol please, since I am an old adult who can legally have some"
 
2013-02-26 08:03:08 AM  
Additionally, a lot of these "sting" or shakedown operations have ulterior motives behind them.  I've seen ex-employees and ex-customers make bogus complaints and get regulators to rake businesses over the coals.

Sometimes it's local politics.  These systems are often corrupt, with the license sponsor demanding free services or goods.  Sometimes a business is unwanted by local power players (as is often the case in college towns) and establishments are targeted with questionable tactics as a result.

And it's not like some obvious kid walks into these places during a slow period and asks for a beer in a squeaky voice.  Many of these agents do the best they can to appear well beyond the questionable range of age, and they do it during busy periods when staff are likely to be distracted and tired.

Which is one reason the speed trap analogy applies.  You don't drive down the road constantly alert and reading every single sign you go by, processing all the information in full.  You don't constantly scan the horizon for speed limit signs while also somehow keeping track of traffic and whatever else is going on.  You go with traffic and do the best you can to obey the law within limits and reason.  Just like deceptive speed limit signs that create a major change in legal speed, intentionally trying to induce businesses to serve minors with massively deceptive looks and behaviors focuses on penalizing people who may not have otherwise been looking to break the law, ....and it may not just be about what's right and wrong, or even legal.
 
2013-02-26 08:24:39 AM  

Happy Hours: If your brain not being developed until your in your mid-20s is a valid reason to prevent someone from drinking, then it should be a valid reason to keep 18 year olds out of the army and also out of porn.


Exactly... Pick an age, I don't care what one, and go with it for all such adult, potentially dangerous activities... But, it's just plain stupid to say "At 18, you're old enough to go to war, drive a heavy rolling chunk of metal at high speeds, fire a gun, smoke cigarettes, and shoot porn all you like, but you're still far too childlike and innocent to possibly handle a beer!"... I don't care if you raise up the ages of everything else to 21, or hell make it 31 for all I give a shiat! But, just be consistent and logical about it!
 
2013-02-26 08:35:03 AM  

lordjupiter: So you've never run a business that had to deal with this, but you think you know the ins and outs?


Not all of the ins and outs, but this one Asian girl that sold me beer clued me in when she saw my ID said I was in my 30s and she apologized ("I sorry, I been to jail before").

How much do you need to know to sell booze? She learned that you should ask for ID, Apparently she didn't like being arrested and wanted to avoid it in the future.

You and the other guy have repeatedly missed the point.

I don't think I've missed the point at all.

I think I've got the point completely. When in doubt - even if it's not reasonable doubt. If there's even a chance, card them. Is it really a major hassle to pull out your ID? Shiat - I saw some chick at the liquor store pull out a passport the other day. Really? She carries her passport with her and doesn't have a driver's license. Whatever.

It didn't seem to be too much of a burden on her. She waved it in front of the clerks face for 2 seconds and he completed the transaction.

I would have carded her too. She looked 21, but hell she might have been 30 - or 16. I couldn't tell for sure. Hence the request by the store's clerk to see an ID.

  What is your standard for how old someone LOOKS?

What part of "saggy tits, grey hair or wrinkled skin" do you not understand?

lordjupiter: Is the law designed to discourage businesses from selling to minors?


Yes, it is. You could go the Hooter's route. I'm not sure if it was just that one Hooter's or if it's corporate policy, but like I said they had a sign that said "We even carded George Burns".

Do you know who that is? He was making jokes about how old he was back in the 1950s and he died in 1996. He was 100 years old when he died.

How else are they going to enforce the law? You think kids who get sold alcohol are going to report it to the police? Should they wait until some kid drinks too much and does something stupid resulting in death or serious injury?

I even remember seeing signs in some liquor stores saying the clerk might be an undercover cop. Yeah, it's serious shiat. Chances are it wasn't an undercover cop but you'd better not show a fake ID.
Look, you can biatch and moan and even seriously debate whether or not 21 is the appropriate age to be allowed to buy alcohol, but that is what the law says right now and as such law enforcement is going to try to enforce that law. And they should. Cops are not legislators. Got that? Cops don't write the laws.

Things were different when I was 18. If I got carded at one store I could go to another one. It really never took me more than 3 tries to buy alcohol when I was in high school, but it was illegal. From what I can tell it's much more difficult today and that's partly because of sting operations like this.
I think the hard part about running a liquor store would be logistics. What do I order and how much of it do I order and when do I order it? I'd tell my cashiers to card everyone unless they're obviously older than their grandmother.

Carding people would be easy. Just do it.
 
2013-02-26 08:52:34 AM  

That Guy in the Dos Equis Commercials: mightybaldking: I meant, who was the client. My assumption is that it was the chain of variety stores doing their internal audits. It doesn't make sense that the Gov't would police licenses this way.

You would assume wrong. We own two liquor stores and have been subject to sting operations at least once a year by the TABC. We always get a nice letter saying we passed.

It's ok. We don't want to sell underage, sell to those intoxicated, or break any other law. We make a whole lot of money doing it legal.

And having been a teenager, raised teenagers, and lived among teenagers, we don't want waterhead eighteen-year-olds driving and drinking. And the fact that they can and do enlist in the military and die to make Dick Cheney rich just further shows their lapses in judgement.


You misunderstood me.  The Govt would not hire someone, via a private company, who is of legal age to NOT commit a crime.  The only utility this type of policing would have would be to check if your stores are carding young looking people.  The Government would hire old looking under-agers (as in TFA), because they have to have a violation before they can do anything.
 
2013-02-26 09:28:07 AM  

Happy Hours: lordjupiter: So you've never run a business that had to deal with this, but you think you know the ins and outs?

Not all of the ins and outs, but this one Asian girl that sold me beer clued me in when she saw my ID said I was in my 30s and she apologized ("I sorry, I been to jail before").

How much do you need to know to sell booze? She learned that you should ask for ID, Apparently she didn't like being arrested and wanted to avoid it in the future.

You and the other guy have repeatedly missed the point.

I don't think I've missed the point at all.

I think I've got the point completely. When in doubt - even if it's not reasonable doubt. If there's even a chance, card them. Is it really a major hassle to pull out your ID? Shiat - I saw some chick at the liquor store pull out a passport the other day. Really? She carries her passport with her and doesn't have a driver's license. Whatever.

It didn't seem to be too much of a burden on her. She waved it in front of the clerks face for 2 seconds and he completed the transaction.

I would have carded her too. She looked 21, but hell she might have been 30 - or 16. I couldn't tell for sure. Hence the request by the store's clerk to see an ID.

  What is your standard for how old someone LOOKS?

What part of "saggy tits, grey hair or wrinkled skin" do you not understand?

lordjupiter: Is the law designed to discourage businesses from selling to minors?

Yes, it is. You could go the Hooter's route. I'm not sure if it was just that one Hooter's or if it's corporate policy, but like I said they had a sign that said "We even carded George Burns".

Do you know who that is? He was making jokes about how old he was back in the 1950s and he died in 1996. He was 100 years old when he died.

How else are they going to enforce the law? You think kids who get sold alcohol are going to report it to the police? Should they wait until some kid drinks too much and does something stupid resulting in death or serious ...


You have blown past every detail about differences of motivation, venue, enforcement and standards and gone back to "card anyone in a liquor store who doesn't look really old".   So yes, you have absolutely missed the point(s), and you have no experience other than watching people buy booze in liquor stores, or trying to buy while underage yourself.
 
2013-02-26 10:10:36 AM  

lordjupiter: You have blown past every detail about differences of motivation, venue, enforcement and standards and gone back to "card anyone in a liquor store who doesn't look really old".   So yes, you have absolutely missed the point(s), and you have no experience other than watching people buy booze in liquor stores, or trying to buy while underage yourself.


Well, to be fair you kept repeating yourself without really making any points.

What is your point exactly?

I'd say if you have a liquor license you're supposed to vigorously make sure you don't sell or serve to minors.

It's really probably the simplest thing about being in the business. Running a successful bar or liquor store probably involves a lot more than that.

Running a store is probably a lot easier than running a bar. I've seen bars come and go. I have never seen a liquor store go out of business though.

Dude, this isn't a speed trap. This isn't law enforcement even deceptively tricking a bar into selling to a minor. When I was in my 20s I went to a bar and honest to god I had left my ID at home. I'm not sure why I did that other than I was a fark-up, but they actually believed me - and in that case it was actually the truth.

They really shouldn't have let me in. They were just lucky that I was an actual customer and not some confidential informant working for the police. It would have sucked for me, but they have a duty to keep minors out and they are required by law to make sure that they don't serve alcohol to minors.
 
2013-02-26 11:11:47 AM  

Happy Hours: FSTFKL: Trocadero: the_sidewinder: Why is the legal drinking age so high in the US?

Morally/logically, it's stupid that you can do all sorts of big life-altering things at 18 but you can't drink at 21. However, after the Federal change, the drunk driving, and more importantly, the drunk driving fatality rate went down. Significantly.

The speed limit was also lowered to 55 around the same time, mandatory seatbelt laws were passed, and airbags started showing up in cars.  Correlation does not equal causation.


Uh, no. Not even close.

The national speed limit used the same extortionist tactics as the mandatory national drinking age of 21 but 55 was implemented in 1973. That national drinking age wasn't passed until 1984.

Have you ever been in a car manufactured in the early '70s (or before)?

The thought of crashing in an old car is absolutely terrifying to me. Safety was not much of a consideration. There were no airbags. Crumple zones were just a pipe dream of some engineer. If you crashed in a 1973 whatever you were definitely going to get hurt if not killed. If you crash today, chances are you'll walk away from it just fine.

And seat belts and air bags were both implemented decades apart. I didn't have an airbag in my car until the '90s. I'm not old enough to remember cars without seat belts.

Your general point that a decrease in traffic fatalities probably has more to do with advances in auto safety rather than a national drinking age is correct, but you completely fail regarding the time line of seat belts, national speed limit, national drinking age and airbags.


You have me on the 55 speed limit.  I do remember folks being frustrated with it in the mid-80's & for some reason was thinking it was a recent thing then.

But by seatbelt laws I'm not referring to the one that required cars to have them, but the laws that started getting passed in the mid 80's that required people to WEAR them.  People often didn't, back in the day.  They are uncomfortable and wrinkle your clothes, after all.  I remember admonishing passengers in my car to buckle up.

And don't forget, there were no car seat laws for kids either.

I was in a slow-speed accident in a late 60's early 70's era car wearing a lap belt-- they didn't have shoulder belts back when the car was built.  The car I was in was rear-ended, I doubt either car was going over 15 mph at the time.  My face hit the dashboard hard & I was bruised & swollen so badly I looked funny for the better part of a month.

I think we both agree that cars are much safer now than they were back then.

Also, younger people may not believe this, but another factor is that drunk driving used to be somewhat socially acceptable, depending on where you were.  Back in the day, especially in rural areas, a DUI was not a big deal.  That is no longer the case.
 
2013-02-26 11:47:12 AM  
Happy Hours:  This isn't law enforcement even deceptively tricking a bar into selling to a minor.

We're done here.
 
2013-02-26 12:36:26 PM  

FSTFKL: You have me on the 55 speed limit.  I do remember folks being frustrated with it in the mid-80's & for some reason was thinking it was a recent thing then.


Heh - Sammy Hagar probably. He couldn't drive 55. I can't remember the details, but I remember reading that he did some serious damage to his Ferrari making that video. He didn't actually crash, but just tore it up by driving the crap out of it.


FSTFKL: But by seatbelt laws I'm not referring to the one that required cars to have them, but the laws that started getting passed in the mid 80's that required people to WEAR them.  People often didn't, back in the day.  They are uncomfortable and wrinkle your clothes, after all.  I remember admonishing passengers in my car to buckle up


I don't actually remember when wearing a seat belt became law, but back in the '70s a lot of people were not happy that the car would make sounds telling you that you weren't wearing a seat belt. Ding, ding, ding. ding.

My father actually disabled the warning bells in one car. The bells were annoying, but I'm a firm believer in wearing a seat belt. Nobody plans to get into an accident - well, 99.9% of people don't. Spending an extra second when you get in the car could save your life or could possibly be the difference between being injured and being seriously injured and possibly crippled.

I think a lot of people were still pissed off at the 55 MPH speed limit and saw that as yet another violation of personal freedom. We had CB radios in any car we drove out of town and to be honest the only reason we had them was to get away with speeding. "Breaker 1-9 for a smokey report".

Somehow those mandatory warning bells disappeared from cars, but my father came to his senses and now wears a seatbelt all the time. He also drives the speed limit, since it would be illegal not to and that would be wrong.

I'm not always that law-abiding, but I do wear my seat belt.

Fark being crippled from an auto accident. Remember that commercial with the person in the wheel char who didn't wear a seat belt? I do. I thought it was pretty effective. I don't know why they retired it.

FSTFKL: I think we both agree that cars are much safer now than they were back then.


Agree

Also, younger people may not believe this, but another factor is that drunk driving used to be somewhat socially acceptable, depending on where you were.  Back in the day, especially in rural areas, a DUI was not a big deal.  That is no longer the case.

Yeah, I've heard some stories. According to some I've heard you either had to not even be able to stand on your own 2 feet or stab a police officer to get arrested for DUI back then.

It makes me wonder which of those Bush did.

It was still illegal though, just probably not as enforced as well. I can't remember the details, but I heard about some guy being arrested for DUI around 1930 or so for DUI. And yeah, he had to get into an accident and kill someone to get that charge, but my initial reaction was "Really? That was illegal back then?"

Apparently it was. They just didn't have breathalyzers to test you so it was probably very much a judgment call and if you were playing nice with the cop and hadn't hurt anyone, you could probably get away with it.
 
2013-02-26 01:57:06 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: mjohnson71: mjohnson71: I've said this before and I'll say this again: the U.S. drinking age of 21 is stupid.

If you can legally do the following at 18:
-vote
-buy a gun
-drive
-sign a legal contract
-get married
-do/buy porn
-most importantly fight and die for your county
then why can't you have a drink?

Country

\Gimme a break; it's Monday

Well, it might have started because of money, but it's supported because your brain isn't developed until mid-20s, and other than fighting and dying for your country, none of those listed things could have lethal effects. Alcohol very much can, especially given how our culture romanticizes it.


Really? Seriously? You want to stick with that answer?

/Also, you can buy cigarettes at 18... I hear tell those things'll kill ya, too...


The examples you list do not have culture telling you to go out and do them with the intent of causing yourself harm. Culture tells kids to get wasted often for the fun of it. That's the big difference. Teach a kid to drive responsibly, the kid is more likely to drive responsibly; teach the kid that they shouldn't remember what happened on the night of their twenty-first birthday, you'll have problems.
 
2013-02-26 02:31:54 PM  

PsiChick: The examples you list do not have culture telling you to go out and do them with the intent of causing yourself harm.


And, now you're moving goalposts... You said, and I quote, "none of those listed things could have lethal effects"... Those are your words... None of them could have any lethal effects... Do you see why that's incorrect? Or, are you going to continue defending your obviously incorrect statement?

Also, what "culture" tells anyone to go out and "caus[e] yourself harm" with booze? I've never heard of any such culture... I've heard of a culture of having fun and enjoying yourself... But, harming yourself generally tends to be frowned on by most people...

Culture tells kids to get wasted often for the fun of it. That's the big difference.

Culture tells kids driving fast and dangerously is fun and you should do it! Culture tells kids smoking is cool and you should do it! Culture tells kids guns are fun and you should handle them recklessly!

Those are all equally as true as your statement... (Though, the smoking one maybe not so much anymore these days... When I was a kid, it was true, at least...)

Teach a kid to drive responsibly, the kid is more likely to drive responsibly;

Teach a kid to drink responsibly, the kid is more likely to drink responsibly...

teach the kid that they shouldn't remember what happened on the night of their twenty-first birthday, you'll have problems.

How many parents teach their kids that, I wonder? Probably the same number who teach their kids to dangerously speed and handle guns recklessly, I'd imagine...
 
2013-02-26 02:44:41 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: The examples you list do not have culture telling you to go out and do them with the intent of causing yourself harm.

And, now you're moving goalposts... You said, and I quote, "none of those listed things could have lethal effects"... Those are your words... None of them could have any lethal effects... Do you see why that's incorrect? Or, are you going to continue defending your obviously incorrect statement?

Also, what "culture" tells anyone to go out and "caus[e] yourself harm" with booze? I've never heard of any such culture... I've heard of a culture of having fun and enjoying yourself... But, harming yourself generally tends to be frowned on by most people...

Culture tells kids to get wasted often for the fun of it. That's the big difference.

Culture tells kids driving fast and dangerously is fun and you should do it! Culture tells kids smoking is cool and you should do it! Culture tells kids guns are fun and you should handle them recklessly!

Those are all equally as true as your statement... (Though, the smoking one maybe not so much anymore these days... When I was a kid, it was true, at least...)

Teach a kid to drive responsibly, the kid is more likely to drive responsibly;

Teach a kid to drink responsibly, the kid is more likely to drink responsibly...

teach the kid that they shouldn't remember what happened on the night of their twenty-first birthday, you'll have problems.

How many parents teach their kids that, I wonder? Probably the same number who teach their kids to dangerously speed and handle guns recklessly, I'd imagine...


1) Well, if you'd read past the first sentence of my post, you might have noticed that part of what sets alcohol apart from, say, tobacco, is that we teach teenagers to drink irresponsibly.

2)  The Hangover, a wildly popular comedic trilogy, features as its main comedic staple the hilarity of dealing with the aftermath of being blackout drunk, and does not actually address the fact that getting blackout drunk is a health risk.  21 is a movie based on the idea that you should not remember the night of your twenty-first birthday, and if you don't go out and party you're weird. If your culture has the idea of drinking as fun so embedded that Hollywood thinks it's a quick way to make money, you  might have a culture that promotes heavy drinking, and expects parents to be 'over cautious' as part of showing how cool drinking really is. Just maybe.
 
2013-02-26 03:01:04 PM  

PsiChick: 1) Well, if you'd read past the first sentence of my post, you might have noticed that part of what sets alcohol apart from, say, tobacco, is that we teach teenagers to drink irresponsibly.


And, if you'd read my post, you'd see I said we equally teach kids to be irresponsible about driving and handling guns... Also, smoking any tobacco at all is generally considered irresponsible by most people these days, I thought!

Also, since I quoted the entirety of your post, and responsided individually to each part, I fail to understand how you could think I didn't read past the first sentence!

2) The Hangover, a wildly popular comedic trilogy, features as its main comedic staple the hilarity of dealing with the aftermath of being blackout drunk, and does not actually address the fact that getting blackout drunk is a health risk.

The Fast and the Furious
, a wildly popular action series, features as its main action staple the thrill of illegal street racing, and does not actually address the fact that street racing is a health risk...

We can both do this all day with various movies... That was my point when I said that "culture" teaches kids the same thing about all the subjects equally, not just about booze...

21 is a movie based on the idea that you should not remember the night of your twenty-first birthday, and if you don't go out and party you're weird.

No, 21 is a movie about the MIT blackjack crew!
 
2013-02-26 03:10:20 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: 1) Well, if you'd read past the first sentence of my post, you might have noticed that part of what sets alcohol apart from, say, tobacco, is that we teach teenagers to drink irresponsibly.

And, if you'd read my post, you'd see I said we equally teach kids to be irresponsible about driving and handling guns... Also, smoking any tobacco at all is generally considered irresponsible by most people these days, I thought!

Also, since I quoted the entirety of your post, and responsided individually to each part, I fail to understand how you could think I didn't read past the first sentence!

2) The Hangover, a wildly popular comedic trilogy, features as its main comedic staple the hilarity of dealing with the aftermath of being blackout drunk, and does not actually address the fact that getting blackout drunk is a health risk.

The Fast and the Furious, a wildly popular action series, features as its main action staple the thrill of illegal street racing, and does not actually address the fact that street racing is a health risk...

We can both do this all day with various movies... That was my point when I said that "culture" teaches kids the same thing about all the subjects equally, not just about booze...

21 is a movie based on the idea that you should not remember the night of your twenty-first birthday, and if you don't go out and party you're weird.

No, 21 is a movie about the MIT blackjack crew!


I think you're misunderstanding how enculturation works. In most societies, parents  are the main enculturation force; in America, that only holds true until the early teen years. After that, media and peer pressure take over. Parents are expected to teach their children not to do things, but children are expected to ignore it; that basically negates parental input, so culturally children are taught to do or not do specific things whether or not their parents say so. And yes, you could argue that movies like  Fast and Furious create the same risks for driving; I would argue that's part of a larger cultural problem, and while alcohol is part of the 'mook culture' taught to young men, it is not the same as the long-standing cultural ideal of getting drunk (I Need A Freakin' Drink is even on TVTropes).
 
2013-02-26 03:51:38 PM  

PsiChick: I Need A Freakin' Drink is even on TVTropes


So is Hollywood Driving and Reckless Gun Usage...

Look, you're onto an interesting topic and everything, and I don't disagree that culture teaches that getting drunk is fun and it's encouraged... I just think you're discounting that it does the same exact thing about various other dangerous things, and really alcohol is no more dangerous than any of them... If they can't handle alcohol until they're 21 (or whatever arbitrary age you wish to pick), then I'd submit they also shouldn't be trusted to safely handle tobacco, guns, or cars...

But, more importantly, my sole reason for responding intially was that you said none of those other activities that an 18 year old is allowed to do could possibly ever have any sort of lethal consequences, and that was simply crazy talk... Presumably, you just misspoke or didn't phrase things in the best way...
 
2013-02-26 05:30:42 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: I Need A Freakin' Drink is even on TVTropes

So is Hollywood Driving and Reckless Gun Usage...

Look, you're onto an interesting topic and everything, and I don't disagree that culture teaches that getting drunk is fun and it's encouraged... I just think you're discounting that it does the same exact thing about various other dangerous things, and really alcohol is no more dangerous than any of them... If they can't handle alcohol until they're 21 (or whatever arbitrary age you wish to pick), then I'd submit they also shouldn't be trusted to safely handle tobacco, guns, or cars...

But, more importantly, my sole reason for responding intially was that you said none of those other activities that an 18 year old is allowed to do could possibly ever have any sort of lethal consequences, and that was simply crazy talk... Presumably, you just misspoke or didn't phrase things in the best way...


If I'd ever said that, yes, you'd be right. I was commenting on the inherent dangers, although I did overemphasize the inherency aspect instead of the balance between inherency and culture. But my basic premise remains: Picking up a gun or driving a car does not pickle your liver. The buzz you get from being drunk? Yeah, guess why that happens.
 
2013-02-26 06:06:58 PM  

PsiChick: If I'd ever said that, yes, you'd be right.


Um, I'm really not trying to be a dick here, but you did say exactly that:

PsiChick: none of those listed things could have lethal effects


Now, you may not have meant that... You may have just worded things poorly... But, you clearly did say it... And, that's what I was responding to...

PsiChick: But my basic premise remains: Picking up a gun or driving a car does not pickle your liver.


No, they kill you in other ways... Like shooting holes through your body or crushing you in a car wreck... I'm not sure why one way to die is better/worse than another?

Unless you're trying to say that any amount of drinking at all ever instantly pickles your liver and kills you on the spot? Because, otherwise, it seems a clear parallel with driving recklessly or using a gun recklessly: drinking recklessly is dangerous... You know, in fact, doing most things recklessly is dangerous!

But, just as a gun can be used safely and a car can be driven safely, one can also drink alcohol safely... It's not the horrific killer you paint it as... You do realize most people's livers heal themselves, right? And, it takes pretty much a lifetime of hard-core non-stop alcohol abuse before anything like liver failure is a major concern? Most of the hard-core alcoholics I've known have survived to a fairly ripe old age, and croaked of something else entirely!

PsiChick: The buzz you get from being drunk? Yeah, guess why that happens.


Because it's a psychoactive drug that affects our brains!
 
2013-02-26 06:18:48 PM  

RobSeace: Unless you're trying to say that any amount of drinking at all ever instantly pickles your liver and kills you on the spot? Because, otherwise, it seems a clear parallel with driving recklessly or using a gun recklessly: drinking recklessly is dangerous... You know, in fact, doing most things recklessly is dangerous!

But, just as a gun can be used safely and a car can be driven safely, one can also drink alcohol safely... It's not the horrific killer you paint it as... You do realize most people's livers heal themselves, right? And, it takes pretty much a lifetime of hard-core non-stop alcohol abuse before anything like liver failure is a major concern? Most of the hard-core alcoholics I've known have survived to a fairly ripe old age, and croaked of something else entirely!


No. I'm saying that, while driving and shooting are dangerous, alcohol has measurable effects on the entire body that aren't healthy  during puberty, or during the time period of brain growth that lasts until the early twenties.

As I mentioned, I'd be okay with legalizing it. That doesn't mean there isn't rationale for banning it.
 
2013-02-26 06:29:27 PM  

PsiChick: No. I'm saying that, while driving and shooting are dangerous, alcohol has measurable effects on the entire body that aren't healthy during puberty, or during the time period of brain growth that lasts until the early twenties.


Well, ok... But, if that's all you were trying to say, I think you weren't the clearest about saying it...

But, can I get a citation on how precisely alcohol is especially harmful to anyone under their mid 20s? (I'm not sure where puberty came from... I think most people are pretty much past that by age 18...) I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just don't think I've ever heard anyone make that claim before... What specific measurable negative effects does it have on such people?

As I mentioned, I'd be okay with legalizing it. That doesn't mean there isn't rationale for banning it.

I don't care if it's legalized for 18 year olds... I only care about the idiotic inconsistency behind allowing them to do various other dangerous things, while prohibiting that one specific dangerous thing... Which, to my perspective, seems a whole lot less dangerous than many of the other things!

For instance, cigarettes I've already mentioned... They can buy and smoke those at age 18... I've seen the citations on cigarettes being harmful to everyone, not just those under 25... Those too have specific measurable negative effects on the body... So, why are they allowed to buy and smoke those, but not drink alcohol? Are alcohols effects that much worse on them?? I'll want to see some evidence of that, if so...
 
2013-02-26 06:39:40 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: No. I'm saying that, while driving and shooting are dangerous, alcohol has measurable effects on the entire body that aren't healthy during puberty, or during the time period of brain growth that lasts until the early twenties.

Well, ok... But, if that's all you were trying to say, I think you weren't the clearest about saying it...

But, can I get a citation on how precisely alcohol is especially harmful to anyone under their mid 20s? (I'm not sure where puberty came from... I think most people are pretty much past that by age 18...) I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just don't think I've ever heard anyone make that claim before... What specific measurable negative effects does it have on such people?

As I mentioned, I'd be okay with legalizing it. That doesn't mean there isn't rationale for banning it.

I don't care if it's legalized for 18 year olds... I only care about the idiotic inconsistency behind allowing them to do various other dangerous things, while prohibiting that one specific dangerous thing... Which, to my perspective, seems a whole lot less dangerous than many of the other things!

For instance, cigarettes I've already mentioned... They can buy and smoke those at age 18... I've seen the citations on cigarettes being harmful to everyone, not just those under 25... Those too have specific measurable negative effects on the body... So, why are they allowed to buy and smoke those, but not drink alcohol? Are alcohols effects that much worse on them?? I'll want to see some evidence of that, if so...


...It's rare that I feel the need to tell someone this, but this is so well-known that you really need to just Google it.

/You know, even homeschooled I got DARE pamphlets. And they aren't all full of shiat.
 
2013-02-27 06:12:15 AM  

PsiChick: DARE ... And they aren't all full of shiat.


Um, yeah... Riiiiight... Now, I'm not sure if you haven't just been trolling this whole thread...
 
2013-02-27 12:38:20 PM  

RobSeace: PsiChick: DARE ... And they aren't all full of shiat.

Um, yeah... Riiiiight... Now, I'm not sure if you haven't just been trolling this whole thread...


No, when it comes to the physical effects of drug interactions with the human body they're usually pretty scientifically accurate. The lies come in the form of 'weed is a gateway drug' (they used to have some bullshiat about weed's physical effects, but the DARE program I saw dropped it) or 'alcohol will addict you instantly' or other such fairly obvious loads of crap.

/They are certainly much better about hard drugs, but like I said--if you don't know how alcohol interacts with the human body or the rough age of brain development, Mr. Google is our friend.
 
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