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(Yahoo)   Dear Abby: My adult granddaughters have rejected me, feeling uncomfortable with the way I rub their shoulders and necks   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 366
    More: Obvious, Abigail Van Buren, adult granddaughters, Jeanne Phillips, Pauline Phillips, grandfather  
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28261 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Feb 2013 at 10:53 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-25 11:34:30 AM  

digistil: Isn't Dear Abby six feet under?


The original Dear Abby is. However her daughter took over the column back in the mid-90s I want to say.
 
2013-02-25 11:35:36 AM  

No Time To Explain: Why can't some grandfathers just go fishing, watching the price its right and giving their grandchildren booze

/I had one of the best grandfathers ever


You must not have thought it odd that after he gave you booze, you woke dressed for bed.

Skirl Hutsenreiter: I saw an old dude at my church do this to our (female) priest yesterday.  When your priest squirms away and tells you she doesn't need her shoulders rubbed, you know it's awkward.


Awkward would be a (male) priest squirms away, because you're now too old.

My bil's sister divorced her Southern Baptist minister husband, after discovering he was having an affair.  Her first clue was, he was giving the ladies at the church long awkward hugs, every Sunday.
 
2013-02-25 11:36:02 AM  
I think I found his picture.

i.crackedcdn.com
 
2013-02-25 11:39:06 AM  

GalFriday: No Time To Explain: Why can't some grandfathers just go fishing, watching the price its right and giving their grandchildren booze

/I had one of the best grandfathers ever

Did your Grandpa teach you to cuss?  Because my grandfather did all of the above listed things and taught us to cuss.  But NEVER in front of our grandmother.  Sometimes he would let us have a cigarette, too.


No, I only had one grandfather growing up and he taught me to lie, steal, commit arson, betrayal, and the fun of being disowned. It was only after both he, grandma, and my dad were dead that family members told us the reason why he hated my dad and us kids was because he really was not my our biological relative. Yeah grandma was a slut.
 
2013-02-25 11:39:30 AM  

the_foo: weave: What's the big problem gramps?   When my now-16 yo niece turned 13 she started looking like a real woman and I stopped treating her like a little kid and went into guarded mode.  If she wants a hug, she can initiate it.  If she posts a cute pic on Facebook, I don't click like. Common sense stuff.

Obviously you need to respect what other people are comfortable with, but it sounds like you're afraid to hug your family members lest you be deemed a sexual predator, and that's a sad reflection on the state of our society.


My daughter is 12 1/2. I get the polite "lean in" hugs now. It hurts, but I get it, and so should gramps.
 
2013-02-25 11:40:24 AM  
Ok, I'm going to take the serious answer line on this one...

Had similar issue with twin nieces.  Both crawled all over top of me when they were 7 and no problem expressing affection or receiving it (get your minds out of the gutter...).  That included the neck and shoulder rubs and of course piggyback rides.  The piggyback rides stopped first...a combination of my lower back pain, their weight, and their starting to show lack of interest.  As for the neck and shoulder rubs, one (the younger one by 20 minutes) at age 11 or 12 decided that enough was enough and let me know about it.  We were good after that.  The "older" other let it go on for a while longer, mostly I think because she liked it, but also because I think she had this whole "now he's my uncle" thing going on with her "younger" sister because I tended to favor her more early on.  Of course the day finally arrived that the "older" niece wasn't so much interested anymore either, though she wasn't as direct as her sibling had been in letting me know.  I eventually took the "hint".

There's no exact age to stop, but asking permission is usually a good thing to do at some point early on and stop assuming they are ok with it (actually they may never be ok with it for various reasons...some kids are just not touchy people).  Odds are the day will arrive that they aren't ok with it anymore but "suffer" it anyway because they are afraid of hurting your feelings (if they are direct with you about it, you got lucky) or because they feel like they have to let you do it because an adult told them to obey you (about not getting into the ice cream or not abusing the Xbox controllers, not this obviously).  Avoid letting things get to that point, else you'll end up like the old guy in the story.  He should get used to the idea that he won't be seeing the kids again anytime soon.  Creepy grandpa is creepy and it will take them a long while to think of him otherwise.

/yes I keep in touch with both nieces now 17 and we're close, just not touchy close...though the younger one did insist on a neck rub the other day
 
2013-02-25 11:40:37 AM  
I think the letter below creepy grandpa would have been a better discussion. Your dogs are not people, thats right THEY ARE NOT PEOPLE, you dont need to bring them everywhere with you.
 
2013-02-25 11:42:27 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Virtuoso80: When my niece was young, I treated her like a kid. She'd sit on my lap, lean against me, etc. Now that she's 12, we don't do that anymore. Perhaps 12 is a child still to a grandfather, but you should know that to a 12-year-old, perspective has changed.

My oldest nephew is about half your niece's age (in your story, don't know about her IRL) and I allow him to be the one to initiate hugs now. He's a snuggly little guy. With his little brother (around 20 months) I go by body language, but I think it's just important for kids to understand that they do have rights to their bodies and don't need to submit just because some adult wants a hug.


I can't say I went that far. When she was six and she was leaving from a monthly visit, we would all certainly expect hugs goodbye. And it would be find for me to say, "Where ya goin'? You for got hugs!", or something like that if she forgot.

It's different in different families. I used to have a friend who, at around 20, would have his 16-year-old sister sit on his lap sometimes. Her and her older sister would sometimes sleep in the same bed together too. I don't think there was anything weird going on, just the way it was with their family.
 
2013-02-25 11:44:19 AM  
My male co-worker is always coming up behind me and giving me massages.  He always says, "You're so tense, let me work on you a little bit."  He has hands like a gorilla, so strong and penetrating.  I feel like he's massaging muscles in my chest when he's rubbing my back.

He tells me I have a great physique, but I lift too much because everything is in knots.  Then he does this thing where he rubs his hands in my hair, over my ears, down my jaw line, and then slides his ring fingers into my mouth, pulling the sides apart while admonishing me for not smiling more.  It's like he's trying to stretch my lips and mouth cavity wider and wider.  Sort of freaks me out, but I do carry a lot of stress in my jaw.

Then the other day he said he wanted me to give me a flexibility test.  He takes this long, giant squash out of his bag.  The neck on the thing is like ten inches in diameter.  He told me to open my mouth as wide as I could.  I was sort of flabbergasted, like I was at a hypnotist show, so I just followed along.  He then used a long cue-tip to rub some sort of numbing agent in the back of my throat.  I was terrified, and worse, he started working the neck of the squash into my mouth, pulling at my lips, and nudging it deeper and deeper.  My brain was saying, "spit it out, struggle, throw up!"  But I couldn't get my body to respond.  Somehow or another he got the entire thing down my throat without me gagging.

Then it got weird.  He took out the squash and sat in my lap, facing me, his legs flowing over the back of my buttocks and hips.  He just stared into my eyes with his arms draped over my shoulders.  It was like I was something to dote over, like a perfect vase he'd made at Craft Camp.  He sat there for what seemed like an eternity, at least twenty minutes, and I felt what I can only describe as an anteater mulling around between us.

I feel really uncomfortable around him.  And worse, he's invited me to his cabin, which I can't even find on Google Maps.  I want to go because I don't have a lot of friends and I need to get out more, but the whole thing seems a little off.
 
2013-02-25 11:46:40 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Dear Askance: I work above a grocery store. At night, we borrow their carts (with their blessing) in order to help us take our garbage out in one trip.

ALWAYS WASH YOUR PRODUCE BEFORE YOU EAT IT.

Thanks, TMLPK


Quite true. Just last night I observed a grocery store employee using a cart for collecting bags of garbage from the cans in the parking lot.
 
2013-02-25 11:46:58 AM  
A guide for old people:

Touching arms/shoulders while talking: appropriate, unless it makes someone specifically uncomfortable and they mention it.

Any motion that can be described as "rubbing": no.  Stop.  Apparently this was fine in the 1940s and 1950s since all of you bloody well do it, but it hasn't been socially acceptable since, so quit it.
 
2013-02-25 11:48:48 AM  

Virtuoso80: The My Little Pony Killer: Virtuoso80: When my niece was young, I treated her like a kid. She'd sit on my lap, lean against me, etc. Now that she's 12, we don't do that anymore. Perhaps 12 is a child still to a grandfather, but you should know that to a 12-year-old, perspective has changed.

My oldest nephew is about half your niece's age (in your story, don't know about her IRL) and I allow him to be the one to initiate hugs now. He's a snuggly little guy. With his little brother (around 20 months) I go by body language, but I think it's just important for kids to understand that they do have rights to their bodies and don't need to submit just because some adult wants a hug.

I can't say I went that far. When she was six and she was leaving from a monthly visit, we would all certainly expect hugs goodbye. And it would be find for me to say, "Where ya goin'? You for got hugs!", or something like that if she forgot.

It's different in different families. I used to have a friend who, at around 20, would have his 16-year-old sister sit on his lap sometimes. Her and her older sister would sometimes sleep in the same bed together too. I don't think there was anything weird going on, just the way it was with their family.


Don't get me wrong, they're not in a sterile environment when it comes to affection.  When I want hugs from the little guy, I'll ask him for them, but it's ultimately up to him if he wants to be touched or not. Luckily for me, he ALWAYS wants a hug.
 
2013-02-25 11:49:19 AM  
Pedos live forever, but not so little girls
 
2013-02-25 11:49:25 AM  
So don't do that sh*t.  Next?
 
2013-02-25 11:50:46 AM  
Yeah, saw the same thing between my daughter and father-in-law. He'd try pulling her onto his lap, waaay past the age where she was comfortable with it. That some people aren't able to figure this out amazes me.
 
2013-02-25 11:50:58 AM  

GalFriday: No Time To Explain: Why can't some grandfathers just go fishing, watching the price its right and giving their grandchildren booze

/I had one of the best grandfathers ever

Did your Grandpa teach you to cuss?  Because my grandfather did all of the above listed things and taught us to cuss.  But NEVER in front of our grandmother.  Sometimes he would let us have a cigarette, too.


I don't remember him teaching me, if I remember, I picked it up from parents, just never said it in front of them

/gramps was ok with me swearing too, just not within earshot of parents or sister
//she was a tattletale, still is at out age
 
2013-02-25 11:51:56 AM  

Jim_Callahan: A guide for old people:

Touching arms/shoulders while talking: appropriate, unless it makes someone specifically uncomfortable and they mention it.

Any motion that can be described as "rubbing": no.  Stop.  Apparently this was fine in the 1940s and 1950s since all of you bloody well do it, but it hasn't been socially acceptable since, so quit it.


Eh, I'm going to argue that they don't get free reign to just start touching unless I say no. They should know at that age how to keep their hands to themselves, yes?
 
2013-02-25 11:52:06 AM  

spentmiles: Then it got weird.


Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?
 
2013-02-25 11:52:16 AM  

UberDave: Pic of gramps:

[s16.postimage.org image 240x164]


Came for this. Leaving satisfied.

/You boys want some popsicles?
//I got some popsicles in the cellar.
 
2013-02-25 11:53:31 AM  

Virtuoso80: The My Little Pony Killer: Virtuoso80:
It's different in different families. I used to have a friend who, at around 20, would have his 16-year-old sister sit on his lap sometimes. Her and her older sister would sometimes sleep in the same bed together too. I don't think there was anything weird going on, just the way it was with their family.


It is different for each family.  We were never made to hug and kiss people when we were growing up, but my cousin insists that all three of children give each person in the room a hug and a kiss when they leave.  The 10 year old doesn't like it, but their dad stands there and says, "hugs and kisses or we aren't leaving."  I always tell the little girl that she doesn't have to hug me if she doesn't want to and my brothers tell her the same thing, sometimes we will reach out for a handshake and tell her it is OK not to hug and kiss everyone.  Her dad gets REALLY mad when we do that!  It is really awkward for her.
Now, the 18 month old baby....he has kissy cheeks and gets passed around for cheek kisses and farts on his belly.
 
2013-02-25 11:53:50 AM  
any pics of the adult granddaughters?
 
2013-02-25 11:53:53 AM  

the_foo: Impossible to say from reading a tiny bit of one side. There are people out there who either just don't like any sort of contact, or even read something inappropriate into innocent gestures. Or gramps could be a perv.


Who cares?  They don't like being touched, end of story.
 
2013-02-25 11:56:15 AM  

Virtuoso80: spentmiles: Then it got weird.

Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?


Stick around for a few more of his posts and it will all become clear to you.
 
2013-02-25 11:56:16 AM  

Virtuoso80: spentmiles: Then it got weird.

Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?


an account created in 2004 and doesn't get it...priceless
 
2013-02-25 11:56:44 AM  
On the even more inappropriate side, I knew a women who was married to a guy who would chase their young daughters around their place naked, saying something like "The snake is coming to get you!" referring to his penis. She divorced him.
 
2013-02-25 11:57:10 AM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Virtuoso80: spentmiles: Then it got weird.

Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?

Stick around for a few more of his posts and it will all become clear to you.


ah dude missed my first multipost by 1 second...interwebs high five?
 
2013-02-25 11:57:33 AM  

spentmiles: Then it got weird.


Go on...
 
2013-02-25 12:00:56 PM  

Heathen: The My Little Pony Killer: Virtuoso80: spentmiles: Then it got weird.

Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?

Stick around for a few more of his posts and it will all become clear to you.

ah dude missed my first multipost by 1 second...interwebs high five?


www.topcultured.com

/this is the closest I've been to a simulpost as well
 
2013-02-25 12:01:04 PM  
Came here for 16 candles...
leaving satisfied
 
2013-02-25 12:06:04 PM  

olapbill: Amos Quito: Andromeda: Amos Quito: Dear Abby:

My kids say I'm crazy for writing a dead woman for advice.

What should I do?


You realize her daughter took over the column years ago when she got Alzheimer's disease, right?


Dear Abby's daughter has Alzheimer's?

that would make for some fantastic advice .


Worked for Reagan.
 
2013-02-25 12:06:31 PM  
If the dude hasn't changed the way he treats them since they were little kids, of COURSE they are going to be uncomfortable. Nobody on the planet wants to be treated the same way as they where when they were little kids.

And nobody has ever been comfortable with anyone assuming they had a right to touch them at will. Gramps has a problem with boundaries, and reacts to boundaries being established by whining instead of showing some respect.
 
2013-02-25 12:06:41 PM  

braedan: jaylectricity: Stay above the clavicle, grandpa.

And below the knees!



i64.photobucket.com
Would you give a guy a foot massage?
 
2013-02-25 12:07:51 PM  

Virtuoso80: On the even more inappropriate side, I knew a women who was married to a guy who would chase their young daughters around their place naked, saying something like "The snake is coming to get you!" referring to his penis. She divorced him.


And hopefully received full custody?
 
2013-02-25 12:11:10 PM  

hdhale: Ok, I'm going to take the serious answer line on this one...

Had similar issue with twin nieces.  Both crawled all over top of me when they were 7 and no problem expressing affection or receiving it (get your minds out of the gutter...).  That included the neck and shoulder rubs and of course piggyback rides.  The piggyback rides stopped first...a combination of my lower back pain, their weight, and their starting to show lack of interest.  As for the neck and shoulder rubs, one (the younger one by 20 minutes) at age 11 or 12 decided that enough was enough and let me know about it.  We were good after that.  The "older" other let it go on for a while longer, mostly I think because she liked it, but also because I think she had this whole "now he's my uncle" thing going on with her "younger" sister because I tended to favor her more early on.  Of course the day finally arrived that the "older" niece wasn't so much interested anymore either, though she wasn't as direct as her sibling had been in letting me know.  I eventually took the "hint".

There's no exact age to stop, but asking permission is usually a good thing to do at some point early on and stop assuming they are ok with it (actually they may never be ok with it for various reasons...some kids are just not touchy people).  Odds are the day will arrive that they aren't ok with it anymore but "suffer" it anyway because they are afraid of hurting your feelings (if they are direct with you about it, you got lucky) or because they feel like they have to let you do it because an adult told them to obey you (about not getting into the ice cream or not abusing the Xbox controllers, not this obviously).  Avoid letting things get to that point, else you'll end up like the old guy in the story.  He should get used to the idea that he won't be seeing the kids again anytime soon.  Creepy grandpa is creepy and it will take them a long while to think of him otherwise.

/yes I keep in touch with both nieces now 17 and we'r ...


www.rockarchive.com
 
2013-02-25 12:12:08 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Eh, I'm going to argue that they don't get free reign to just start touching unless I say no. They should know at that age how to keep their hands to themselves, yes?


Depends where you are, I suppose.  In the old south, people will sometimes place a hand on your arm briefly when they're making a point, especially women.  And tapping someone on the shoulder to let them know you're there is considered significantly more polite than making noises until they acknowledge you.

When I moved to California, people didn't do either anymore.  And the throat-clearing shiat is actually significantly more annoying.

//People in my profession never touch each other because, y'know, experimental chemistry, we don't even shake hands in most situations.
 
2013-02-25 12:14:22 PM  
After doing some research I have found the identity of "grieving grampa"

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-25 12:14:45 PM  

Virtuoso80: spentmiles: Then it got weird.

Too late. I'm not even sure if serious. What kind of workplace tolerates behavior like that? And, comming from knowing women at times who would slap you with a harassment suit if you touched their arm the wrong way, did you really just put up with that?


you are not that new here, geebuz.
 
2013-02-25 12:15:16 PM  
Would of been a better story if it was the grandmother.
 
2013-02-25 12:15:58 PM  
I have some nieces under age 10.  I get all the back rubbing and hugging and kissing in that I can now because it'll be all too soon when I can't do that anymore.  Hopefully, years down the road, all that gets replaced by other fun with them and, if I'm lucky, they have some kids of their own and it starts all over again.

Granddad has to learn one simple lesson:  Things don't stay the same forever.  A smooth player moves with the times or moves on.
 
2013-02-25 12:16:10 PM  

Jim_Callahan: A guide for old people:

Touching arms/shoulders while talking: appropriate, unless it makes someone specifically uncomfortable and they mention it.

Any motion that can be described as "rubbing": no.  Stop.  Apparently this was fine in the 1940s and 1950s since all of you bloody well do it, but it hasn't been socially acceptable since, so quit it.


My grandma just used to pinch me when no one was looking. I finally put a stop to that shiat. She drove four hours to visit us one time, and I locked her out, just laughed at her through the window of the front door. We both froze for a second, having apparently thought of the back door at the same time. Well, as it turns out, a five-year-old can run through the house and lock the back door quicker than grandma can make it into the backyard and up onto the back porch.

That was the last time she came to visit. Now I hear she's in a nursing home with Alzheimer's, but I've never come by to find out.
 
2013-02-25 12:17:44 PM  

karmaceutical: hdhale: Ok, I'm going to take the serious answer line on this one...

Had similar issue with twin nieces.  Both crawled all over top of me when they were 7 and no problem expressing affection or receiving it (get your minds out of the gutter...).  That included the neck and shoulder rubs and of course piggyback rides.  The piggyback rides stopped first...a combination of my lower back pain, their weight, and their starting to show lack of interest.  As for the neck and shoulder rubs, one (the younger one by 20 minutes) at age 11 or 12 decided that enough was enough and let me know about it.  We were good after that.  The "older" other let it go on for a while longer, mostly I think because she liked it, but also because I think she had this whole "now he's my uncle" thing going on with her "younger" sister because I tended to favor her more early on.  Of course the day finally arrived that the "older" niece wasn't so much interested anymore either, though she wasn't as direct as her sibling had been in letting me know.  I eventually took the "hint".

There's no exact age to stop, but asking permission is usually a good thing to do at some point early on and stop assuming they are ok with it (actually they may never be ok with it for various reasons...some kids are just not touchy people).  Odds are the day will arrive that they aren't ok with it anymore but "suffer" it anyway because they are afraid of hurting your feelings (if they are direct with you about it, you got lucky) or because they feel like they have to let you do it because an adult told them to obey you (about not getting into the ice cream or not abusing the Xbox controllers, not this obviously).  Avoid letting things get to that point, else you'll end up like the old guy in the story.  He should get used to the idea that he won't be seeing the kids again anytime soon.  Creepy grandpa is creepy and it will take them a long while to think of him otherwise.

/yes I keep in touch with both nieces now 17 ...


Go fark yourself.

/oh and have a nice day!
 
2013-02-25 12:18:54 PM  
Uh, don't you all realize that Dear Abby letters are either fake, or embellished to make them more interesting?  It may be based on some truth, but it almost certainly didn't go down the way it's printed.
 
2013-02-25 12:19:47 PM  

Virtuoso80: On the even more inappropriate side, I knew a women who was married to a guy who would chase their young daughters around their place naked, saying something like "The snake is coming to get you!" referring to his penis. She divorced him.


Hope she got full custody.
 
2013-02-25 12:22:16 PM  

greentea1985: digistil: Isn't Dear Abby six feet under?

The original Dear Abby is. However her daughter took over the column back in the mid-90s I want to say.


I hear her daughter has Alzheimers, sad.
 
2013-02-25 12:22:38 PM  
Spentmiles

My male co.....


This is why I favorited you so long ago!
 
2013-02-25 12:23:17 PM  

Virtuoso80: It seems to me like, when people get older, they just don't care anymore about certain things, and more about others. Kind of like, "I love my grandkids, and I want to hug them and be close to them. Phooey on being reserved, that's just silly. When you get old, you understand what's important in life, and value your family and the time you get to be with them." I honestly don't think the grandfather in this story means badly, I think it's just that kind of perspective.


I think it's fairly common for people to get pretty self-centered upon retirement.  Most things are about them (the elder).  I've seen it with my own father, who has somehow lost perspective of what it's like to be in the working world.  I've also seen it in my mother-in-law.

The grandpa in question here exhibits that same hardening of the world view.  He hasn't evolved in 20 years, and he expects his grandchildren not to have evolved.  It's absurd, and Abby-whoever let him off the hook way to easy.
 
2013-02-25 12:23:29 PM  
DEAR ABBY:My two adult  granddaughters have rejected me, their learing grandfather. Their father gave me this explanation: "They are uncomfortable with the way you rub their shoulders and necks while moaning incessantly and playing with something in your pocket."

These girls and both parents have misinterpreted my attempts to broaden their horizons and push the ridiculous societal boundaries of incest and affection, which haven't changed since the girls were little. The only change is in their perception of my actions and their now unwillingness to participate.

I am devastated and quite frankly very very horny now. I asked twice to meet with these family members at the local swingers club to discuss their concerns and hopefully get things rolling again. It has been three months; no meeting time has been offered and if it wasn't for that frisky high schooler down the street there would be trouble. There has been no fun contact, and neither girl has called me or sexted me for any reason this year.

I can't just stop lusting after those with whom I have developed 20-years of bondage photos and mutual affection. How can this rupture be repaired? -- GRIEVING (and backed up) GRANDDAD
 
2013-02-25 12:23:39 PM  

blunto: Uh, don't you all realize that Dear Abby letters are either fake, or embellished to make them more interesting?  It may be based on some truth, but it almost certainly didn't go down the way it's printed.


What's implausible about this one?
 
2013-02-25 12:23:51 PM  

this immediately came to mind



Link
 
2013-02-25 12:24:01 PM  
Dear Abby:

When my granddaughters were young, they used to love playing with Wrinkles The Clown.  They'd spend hours fishing around in my trousers for 'Ol Wrinkles, bring him out, give him little kisses and play dressup with a collection of small hats and vests I had made.

The last time I saw them, Thanksgiving 2009, Wrinkles came out to play, but they were "too old" to join in the fun, and threw quite a bit of a kerfuffle.  That broke Wrinkles' heart.  Now he just sits here, lifeless and droopy, like he's lost the will to live.   Abby, what should I do?


Signed,

Inmate 2202984
Slasenger County Jail
Special Offenders Unit
 
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