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(ABC)   ACLU upset that Border Patrol treats lawbreakers like criminals   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 86
    More: Asinine, ACLU, border patrol, Center for Immigration Studies, United States, illegal immigrants, border security, rubber-stamp, Mark Krikorian  
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1465 clicks; posted to Politics » on 23 Feb 2013 at 6:18 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-23 03:18:21 PM  
"Because of the volume of cases, judges often conduct hearings with as many as 80 people at a time, some sitting in the jury box to fit everyone in the room, all pleading guilty in a matter of hours."

Sounds like traffic court.
 
2013-02-23 03:19:55 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: "Because of the volume of cases, judges often conduct hearings with as many as 80 people at a time, some sitting in the jury box to fit everyone in the room, all pleading guilty in a matter of hours."

Sounds like traffic court.


Or kangaroo.
 
2013-02-23 03:28:18 PM  
They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.
 
2013-02-23 03:36:43 PM  
oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.

so thieves are  "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-23 03:40:34 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: "Because of the volume of cases, judges often conduct hearings with as many as 80 people at a time, some sitting in the jury box to fit everyone in the room, all pleading guilty in a matter of hours."

Sounds like traffic court.


It's kind of the same thing.  Illegal entry is a misdemeanor and I doubt that there is much jail time being handed out.

It's kind of pointless though.  The maximum sentience of 6 months in a US prison is probably better than six months of unemployment in Mexico, and it would be much cheaper to handle things administratively.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-23 03:41:46 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.


Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.  That would be sort of like shooting shoplifters in a grocery store.
 
2013-02-23 03:42:29 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.

so thieves are  "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.


I'm sure the next time my legal department is backed up and I need a thorough review of a contract, I will be seeking your sage advice.
 
2013-02-23 03:47:37 PM  

vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.


They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.
 
2013-02-23 03:52:45 PM  
Illegal immigrants are not a priori committing a crime.
 
2013-02-23 04:02:44 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: so thieves are "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.


No, they're thieves.  You don't call them 'illegals' even though they've done something illegal.  Call the criminal something that actually reflects the crime.  And in this case, the crime is a lack of documentation.  Thus, 'undocumented immigrant'.
 
2013-02-23 04:30:51 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.


Actually, I think most of the people shooting people at borders have been totalitarian regimes trying to keep their people in. Those are the types you think the United States should be copying? Sounds pretty damn unAmerican to me (well, that and completely barbaric).
 
2013-02-23 04:44:18 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.


Thank God The United States isn't most places.
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2013-02-23 04:44:53 PM  

vygramul: Illegal immigrants are not a priori committing a crime.


I think TFA specifically refers to Operation Streamline with deals with illegal entry which is a crime, not illegal immigration in general.

I think the point is that there is a big difference between a deported criminal trying to re enter the country and some dude who sneaks across the border because he can't get a job in Mexico and he needs to feed his family.
 
2013-02-23 05:05:15 PM  

WorldCitizen: Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.

Actually, I think most of the people shooting people at borders have been totalitarian regimes trying to keep their people in. Those are the types you think the United States should be copying? Sounds pretty damn unAmerican to me (well, that and completely barbaric).


We have certain security systems in place for a pretty good reason. You are forgetting organized crime who smuggle girls to coke to child slaves. These people also like to take shots on those who are patrolling the border. Its not just the civilians who get treated this way; they just dont discriminate.
 
2013-02-23 05:11:33 PM  

cman: WorldCitizen: Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.

Actually, I think most of the people shooting people at borders have been totalitarian regimes trying to keep their people in. Those are the types you think the United States should be copying? Sounds pretty damn unAmerican to me (well, that and completely barbaric).

We have certain security systems in place for a pretty good reason. You are forgetting organized crime who smuggle girls to coke to child slaves. These people also like to take shots on those who are patrolling the border. Its not just the civilians who get treated this way; they just dont discriminate.


I have no issues with patrolling the border and stopping people trying to enter improperly. I have no problem weeding out the truly hard criminals and treating them as such. However, just gunning people down for walking across a line is unAmerican and barbaric. If we ever go down to that level, there is nothing of us left worth defending.
 
2013-02-23 06:27:26 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.


in other news, the US is Kashmir.
 
2013-02-23 06:29:01 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.


Seeing as it's apparently "many parts of the world", I wonder if you could name a few of them.
 
2013-02-23 06:33:32 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.

so thieves are  "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.


I think you're the single most infuriatingly ignorant person I've ever encountered on the internet. Congratulations, you're the nadir of humanity.
 
2013-02-23 06:34:25 PM  

vpb: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.  That would be sort of like shooting shoplifters in a grocery store.


You seem to think that people in favor of "border security" aren't the same ones who applaud when that kind of thing happens. They have a Western Justice fetish and it shows.
 
2013-02-23 06:35:53 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.


wiki.teamfortress.com
Agrees.
 
2013-02-23 06:38:04 PM  

wedun: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

[wiki.teamfortress.com image 250x250]
Agrees.


tf2wiki.net

Does not agree.
 
2013-02-23 06:38:50 PM  
Civil law and criminal law,

How do they work?
 
2013-02-23 06:39:20 PM  

nekulor: tenpoundsofcheese: oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.

so thieves are  "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.

I think you're the single most infuriatingly ignorant person I've ever encountered on the internet. Congratulations, you're the nadir of humanity.


A few close second are people who quote trolls to complain about their trolling.
 
2013-02-23 06:48:06 PM  
The American Civil Liberties Union says United States border security treats people crossing the border illegally to look for work as criminals instead of as desperate people trying to feed their families.

Trolling, or actually too dumb and/or steeped in their own cognitive dissonance to realize that not only is the latter a far-from-universal rule, but the two aren't even mutually exclusive in the first place?  Most muggers and shoplifters have families to feed, too, and most murderers are people murdering family members for what they think to be the good of other family members or the family as a whole.  I mean, obviously federal-level trespassing isn't equivalent to murder, but the "feeding their families" excuse just doesn't cut it when you're committing crimes, sorry.  You're still a criminal, and it's not incorrect in any way to refer to you as such.

Also, we don't  treat border-hopping like it's a big-time crime (the implication of the article), the punishment is a few months in jail, tops, and maybe deportation.  Not even "deportation", just "maybe deportation".  Like, one chance in twenty or something.  And being deported doesn't do anything permanent.  You're not flagged for a harsher penalty if you come right back or anything.

Hell, in most cities and counties, it's illegal to even check your immigration status unless you've been convicted of another crime and are already in jail.  In some cities, it's illegal to check your status  even then.  This is one of the most lightly enforced and prosecuted crimes in the nation, treating it like it's the demon-spawn policy jointly drafted by Hitler and Mao form the depths of hell itself is a bit extreme.  You can get in more trouble for repeated parking tickets than immigration violations.

//I say this with all love for the ACLU, for the most part they do good work.  But the reason this is a fight they tend not to win is because they intentionally take positions that are quantitatively wrong, and not just a difference of opinion or interpretation.  Like, empirically, scientifically incorrect.
 
2013-02-23 06:48:46 PM  

fusillade762: wedun: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

[wiki.teamfortress.com image 250x250]
Agrees.

[tf2wiki.net image 300x314]

Does not agree.


wiki.teamfortress.com

Agrees with the handsome and dashing spy who just left.
 
2013-02-23 06:48:49 PM  
It all balances out.

They treat Wall Street bankers as people desperately trying to platinum-plate their Rolls Royces instead of as criminals.
 
2013-02-23 06:49:49 PM  
The American Civil Liberties Union says United States border security treats people crossing the border illegally to look for work as criminals instead of as desperate people trying to feed their families.

Hmmm
 
2013-02-23 06:54:20 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.


tenpoundsofcheese: oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.


Perhaps you are both unaware that about half of the "illegal immigrants" in the country didn't get here by crossing the border illegally, but rather by entering legally and then overstaying a visa. That is not a criminal act, it is just a civil violation. Thus, "undocumented" rather than "illegal".

You may also be unaware that sneaking across the border wasn't a criminal act until the mid-1990s, so any "illegal immigrant" who crossed the border before then committed no crime. So again, "undocumented" rather than "illegal".

And as for the "Fortress America" idea, no thanks. That's neither practical nor how I want my country to represent itself to our neighbors.
 
2013-02-23 06:54:55 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: vpb: Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.

They're sneaking into a foreign country, in many parts of the world, getting shot is exactly what happens.


Why would we want to emulate those countries?
 
2013-02-23 06:59:49 PM  
UltimaCS:
vpb: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.  That would be sort of like shooting shoplifters in a grocery store.

You seem to think that people in favor of "border security" aren't the same ones who applaud when that kind of thing happens. They have a Western Justice "beaner" killing fetish and it shows.


FTFY
 
2013-02-23 07:02:44 PM  

Zasteva: That is not a criminal act, it is just a civil violation.


Uh. It's still illegal. Parking my car in a no-parking zone is illegal. Littering is illegal. Jaywalking is illegal....

Doing anything proscribed by law is illegal.
 
2013-02-23 07:09:16 PM  
immigration has many consequences to its host nation. Among these are, economic, social, political, and criminal. As such, immigration deserves to be heavily regulated to ensure the the immigration benefits the host nation. If these regulations are not enforced, then they do not exist.
 
2013-02-23 07:09:47 PM  
Did the ACLU forget what the A in their acronym stands for?
 
2013-02-23 07:10:37 PM  

hillbillypharmacist: You don't call them 'illegals' even though they've done something illegal.  Call the criminal something that actually reflects the crime.  And in this case, the crime is a lack of documentation.  Thus, 'undocumented immigrant'.


So as long as I call them* "illegal aliens", we are cool?

Lack of documentation isn't the crime, especially when the reason you don't have documentation on you, is that you don't have it anywhere.

*I don't
 
2013-02-23 07:17:45 PM  
The Border Patrol treats illegal immigrants as humanely as possible under the circumstances. There is some effort made to distinguish between "ordinary migrant trying to find work in America" and "drug cartel soldier body-packing cocaine across the border." Strangely, ordinary migrants who are just looking for work generally just sit down and obey orders when the Border Patrol show up and the criminals get the rough treatment.

But as long as the LAW makes no distinction between "ordinary illegal immigrants" and "criminal illegal immigrants" then the Border Patrol and the border courts can't either, because that's not their job. And if they have to do court 80 at a time to get everyone in and out; well, that's the right to a speedy trial running into the right to due process. As long as each person is okay with it and understands their rights and agrees to the guilty plea--what's the harm? Would it somehow be BETTER to make everyone wait months or years to give each person an individual hearing? I'd rather be in and out and deported the same day, myself.

A better way would be to amend the law so cartel soldiers and coyotes get treated like criminals and unemployed workers get the equivalent of a ticket; but till then, we're stuck with what we have.
 
2013-02-23 07:24:58 PM  
I call them "hummingbirds," because everyone likes hummingbirds.
 
2013-02-23 07:29:16 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The Border Patrol treats illegal immigrants as humanely as possible under the circumstances. There is some effort made to distinguish between "ordinary migrant trying to find work in America" and "drug cartel soldier body-packing cocaine across the border." Strangely, ordinary migrants who are just looking for work generally just sit down and obey orders when the Border Patrol show up and the criminals get the rough treatment.

But as long as the LAW makes no distinction between "ordinary illegal immigrants" and "criminal illegal immigrants" then the Border Patrol and the border courts can't either, because that's not their job. And if they have to do court 80 at a time to get everyone in and out; well, that's the right to a speedy trial running into the right to due process. As long as each person is okay with it and understands their rights and agrees to the guilty plea--what's the harm? Would it somehow be BETTER to make everyone wait months or years to give each person an individual hearing? I'd rather be in and out and deported the same day, myself.

A better way would be to amend the law so cartel soldiers and coyotes get treated like criminals and unemployed workers get the equivalent of a ticket; but till then, we're stuck with what we have.


i have friends who describe what has happened to people they grew up with in mexico. In one man's case, he ended up getting involved with the cartels. He was literally skinned alive. people dont realize the type of evil that is just a few miles from my city.
 
2013-02-23 07:35:38 PM  

Zasteva: And as for the "Fortress America" idea, no thanks. That's neither practical nor how I want my country to represent itself to our neighbors.


Yeah, lets just let anybody walk across whenever they want. That can't possibly lead to any problems, right?
 
2013-02-23 07:45:06 PM  

vpb: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.  That would be sort of like shooting shoplifters in a grocery store.


...which seems like it will soon be a major plank in the Republican platform.
 
2013-02-23 07:54:54 PM  
Let's not enforce the laws that protect our country, but let me get caught ONE time fapping the park, and if is a farking capital case.
 
2013-02-23 07:58:05 PM  
ACLU upset that Border Patrol treats lawbreakers like criminals worse than criminals by trying them in kangaroo courts.

FTFSubby
 
2013-02-23 08:03:06 PM  

wademh: nekulor: tenpoundsofcheese: oh great, another article calling them "undocumented".  Not having documentation is not the same as undocumented.

so thieves are  "undocumented possessors of someone else's property" now.

I think you're the single most infuriatingly ignorant person I've ever encountered on the internet. Congratulations, you're the nadir of humanity.

A few close second are people who quote trolls to complain about their trolling.


Someone who says something you disagree with doesn't make them a troll. Also, ACLU stands for AMERICAN so they need to STFU regarding this case.
 
2013-02-23 08:04:18 PM  

vpb: Popcorn Johnny: They are criminals. Put unmanned sentry guns on the border and shoot anything that steps across.

Well, it's a misdemeanor violation of criminal law.  That would be sort of like shooting shoplifters in a grocery store.


obviously you never played Fallout
 
2013-02-23 08:10:20 PM  

John Buck 41: Someone who says something you disagree with doesn't make them a troll. Also, ACLU stands for AMERICAN so they need to STFU regarding this case.


THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS
 
2013-02-23 08:28:25 PM  
Your mother, subby.
 
2013-02-23 08:32:39 PM  

vpb: BarkingUnicorn: "Because of the volume of cases, judges often conduct hearings with as many as 80 people at a time, some sitting in the jury box to fit everyone in the room, all pleading guilty in a matter of hours."

Sounds like traffic court.

It's kind of the same thing.  Illegal entry is a misdemeanor and I doubt that there is much jail time being handed out.

It's kind of pointless though.  The maximum sentience of 6 months in a US prison is probably better than six months of unemployment in Mexico, and it would be much cheaper to handle things administratively.


Even cheaper if we put them all on buses, drive'em south to the border, escort them off, give them a sack lunch and a "good luck out there, kids!"
 
2013-02-23 09:42:34 PM  
Good thing trolling is against the FarQ or this thread would have about a dozen comments.
 
2013-02-23 09:55:17 PM  

John Buck 41:  ... Also, ACLU stands for AMERICAN so they need to STFU regarding this case.

Britney Spear's Speculum: Did the ACLU forget what the A in their acronym stands for?


Contrary to some perceptions, the American Civil Liberties Union is a of Union of Americans interested in protecting Civil Liberties, not a Union dedicated to the Civil Liberties for just Americans.
 
2013-02-23 10:22:36 PM  

Jim_Callahan: The American Civil Liberties Union says United States border security treats people crossing the border illegally to look for work as criminals instead of as desperate people trying to feed their families.

Trolling, or actually too dumb and/or steeped in their own cognitive dissonance to realize that not only is the latter a far-from-universal rule, but the two aren't even mutually exclusive in the first place?  Most muggers and shoplifters have families to feed, too, and most murderers are people murdering family members for what they think to be the good of other family members or the family as a whole.  I mean, obviously federal-level trespassing isn't equivalent to murder, but the "feeding their families" excuse just doesn't cut it when you're committing crimes, sorry.  You're still a criminal, and it's not incorrect in any way to refer to you as such.

Also, we don't  treat border-hopping like it's a big-time crime (the implication of the article), the punishment is a few months in jail, tops, and maybe deportation.  Not even "deportation", just "maybe deportation".  Like, one chance in twenty or something.  And being deported doesn't do anything permanent.  You're not flagged for a harsher penalty if you come right back or anything.

Hell, in most cities and counties, it's illegal to even check your immigration status unless you've been convicted of another crime and are already in jail.  In some cities, it's illegal to check your status  even then.  This is one of the most lightly enforced and prosecuted crimes in the nation, treating it like it's the demon-spawn policy jointly drafted by Hitler and Mao form the depths of hell itself is a bit extreme.  You can get in more trouble for repeated parking tickets than immigration violations.

//I say this with all love for the ACLU, for the most part they do good work.  But the reason this is a fight they tend not to win is because they intentionally take positions that are quantitatively wrong, and not just a difference of opinion or interpretation.  Like, empirically, scientifically incorrect.


First offense = 6 months maximum imprisonment. A misdemeanor.

Subsequent offenses = 2 years maximum imprisonment. A felony.
 
2013-02-23 10:35:47 PM  

wademh: John Buck 41:  ... Also, ACLU stands for AMERICAN so they need to STFU regarding this case.

Britney Spear's Speculum: Did the ACLU forget what the A in their acronym stands for?

Contrary to some perceptions, the American Civil Liberties Union is a of Union of Americans interested in protecting Civil Liberties, not a Union dedicated to the Civil Liberties for just Americans.


The homepage of the ACLU websitesays nothing of the sort.

media.tumblr.com
 
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