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(News.com.au)   Does your grieving process last more than two weeks? Congratulations, you have a mental disorder   (news.com.au) divider line 33
    More: Asinine, mental illness, Santa Clara University, Australia and New Zealand, psychiatrists, American Psychiatric Association, DSM, Australian Psychological Society  
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2985 clicks; posted to Geek » on 22 Feb 2013 at 5:23 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-22 05:28:40 PM
7 votes:
Wow. The current standard is 2 months. Crap. I've never lost a spouse, but I think I would grieve for a lot longer than 2 months.

I think if you grieve for less than 2 weeks you might have a mental disorder.
2013-02-22 09:08:33 PM
2 votes:
Government giving itself the ability to restrict more and more rights based on subjective mental health opinions on one hand....increasing the things that can be classified as mental disorders on the other.

Seems legit.
2013-02-22 08:53:27 PM
2 votes:

J. Frank Parnell: if_i_really_have_to: Think about the person closest to you that you grieved for. Did you have AT LEAST FIVE of these symptoms for more than two weeks? Having five or more of the above symptoms would actually be a really extraordinary grief reaction, outside "the norm".

Depends how close someone is to you. Married couples who lose someone they've been with for decades often go through those criteria for much longer than 2 weeks.

/The ones who don't were secretly waiting for them to die.


Has nothing to do with decades.  My wife passed away after less than three years of marriage. She was my best friend, my soul mate, and everything else.  She was my everything, and now she's gone.  It has nothing to do with duration.  It's just the response.  And it sucks.  So I wouldn't begrudge anyone their grief and I wouldn't claim it's not a mental disorder.  It ranks right up there with PTSD, sometimes.  The human mind is a screwy and unpredictable place.
2013-02-22 08:51:47 PM
2 votes:

if_i_really_have_to: This is a "ruling out" criteria. Before you even get to this criteria (E) you have to have passed through criteria A-D. The first criteria (A) is to have five or more of these for more than two weeks:

- depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.
- markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)
- significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
- Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day
- psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
- fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
- feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)
- diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)
- recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

AND THEN it also must "cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. "


Hell, I did worse than that over a divorce and that guy is still breathing today.  Grief doesn't work on a time table and no one gets to decide when it's over but the person grieving.
2013-02-22 07:12:21 PM
2 votes:

if_i_really_have_to: Oh this bullshiat again.  Is this the fourth or fifth article that Fark has greenlighted on the same rubbish?  "LOL I don't know anything about how mental illness is diagnosed but this sounds dumb so I'm just going to believe it LOL WTF LOL."  I'm not sure what Prof Larson (not a medical doctor, by the way) has against it, and as a professor in psychology he should know better.

Here is the criteria (one of many) they seem to be talking about changing:

"The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation."

This is a "ruling out" criteria.  Before you even get to this criteria (E) you have to have passed through criteria A-D.  The first criteria (A) is to have five or more of these for more than two weeks:

- depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.
- markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)
- significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
- Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day
- psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
- fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
- feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)
- diminished ability to think or concentrate, ...


lose a baby and get back to me with your list in two weeks, big guy.
2013-02-22 06:59:11 PM
2 votes:
Oh this bullshiat again.  Is this the fourth or fifth article that Fark has greenlighted on the same rubbish?  "LOL I don't know anything about how mental illness is diagnosed but this sounds dumb so I'm just going to believe it LOL WTF LOL."  I'm not sure what Prof Larson (not a medical doctor, by the way) has against it, and as a professor in psychology he should know better.

Here is the criteria (one of many) they seem to be talking about changing:

"The symptoms are not better accounted for by Bereavement, i.e., after the loss of a loved one, the symptoms persist for longer than 2 months or are characterized by marked functional impairment, morbid preoccupation with worthlessness, suicidal ideation, psychotic symptoms, or psychomotor retardation."

This is a "ruling out" criteria.  Before you even get to this criteria (E) you have to have passed through criteria A-D.  The first criteria (A) is to have five or more of these for more than two weeks:

- depressed mood most of the day, nearly every day, as indicated by either subjective report (e.g., feels sad or empty) or observation made by others (e.g., appears tearful). Note: In children and adolescents, can be irritable mood.
- markedly diminished interest or pleasure in all, or almost all, activities most of the day, nearly every day (as indicated by either subjective account or observation made by others)
- significant weight loss when not dieting or weight gain (e.g., a change of more than 5% of body weight in a month), or decrease or increase in appetite nearly every day.
- Insomnia or Hypersomnia nearly every day
- psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
- fatigue or loss of energy nearly every day
- feelings of worthlessness or excessive or inappropriate guilt (which may be delusional) nearly every day (not merely self-reproach or guilt about being sick)
- diminished ability to think or concentrate, or indecisiveness, nearly every day (either by subjective account or as observed by others)
- recurrent thoughts of death (not just fear of dying), recurrent suicidal ideation without a specific plan, or a suicide attempt or a specific plan for committing suicide

AND THEN it also must "cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning. "

Think about the person closest to you that you grieved for.  Did you have AT LEAST FIVE of these symptoms for more than two weeks?  Having five or more of the above symptoms would actually be a really extraordinary grief reaction, outside "the norm".  This is a person unable to work or interact, literally prostrate and wasting away from grief.  In all honesty how many people have your ever known in your life to react that severely to a bereavement for more than two weeks, let alone more than two months?  If you actually stop and think you'll probably realise most people continue to operate pretty well even with a close bereavement.  They might feel extremely sad, and cry a lot, and mope around thinking about the person they lost, but otherwise they usually continue to go about their day quite soon after the bereavement.
2013-02-22 06:13:18 PM
2 votes:

rustypouch: BigJake: I would expect most non-mentally ill people to grieve for a lot longer than that for certain events. A parent losing a child, for instance. A pet, maybe not so much.

Well, look at how easy it is to replace them.

New pets are practically given away, and the ones they can't give away are killed.

There's just a bit more in raising a kid.


You're kidding, right?  Replacing a kid is just one drunken fark away.  High schoolers manage to do it without trying.  People have to actually form strategies and medications to NOT have more kids. The paperwork at the pound is more involved than that.  I've never heard of someone drunk texting an ex and ending up with a new puppy from it.
2013-02-22 06:12:24 PM
2 votes:

cgraves67: Wow. The current standard is 2 months. Crap. I've never lost a spouse, but I think I would grieve for a lot longer than 2 months.

I think if you grieve for less than 2 weeks you might have a mental disorder.


Try losing a child.  The authors of the DSM 5 can burn in hell, if only there were such a place.  If you can make a telephone function in two weeks I'd think you were ahead of the curve.  There must be a drug based agenda to minimizing the time frame...
2013-02-23 10:13:37 AM
1 votes:
This is an excerpt from statement on the grief exclusion changes by Kenneth Kendler who, aside from having an awesome porn star name, is a very smart guy and much more rational than Dr. Aussie Kneejerk:

"Second, the other major psychiatric diagnostic system used in the world - the International 
Classification of Diseases - has never had a grief exclusion criterion for major depression.

Third, a broad range of evidence agreed to by both sides of this debate shows that there are little to no 
systematic differences between individuals who develop a major depression in response to 
bereavement and in response to other severe stressors - such as being physical assaulted and raped, 
being betrayed by a trusted spouse whom you learn has been unfaithful or a beloved child whom you 
are told is dealing drugs, having your doctor tell you that your breast or prostate biopsy for cancer is 
positive or the loss of your treasured job.

So the DSM-IV position is not logically defensible. Either the grief exclusion criterion needs to be 
eliminated or extended so that no depression that arises in the setting of adversity would be 
diagnosable...

Fourth, the vast majority ofindividuals exposed to grief and to these other terrible misfortunes do not 
develop major depression...

Finally, diagnosis in psychiatry as in the rest of medicine provides the possibility but by no means the 
requirement that treatment be initiated.


So, in short, there are many logical and scientifically supported reasons for the changes that Dr. Iwantattention could have read about before doing his whole 'the sky is falling' bit.
2013-02-23 05:23:04 AM
1 votes:

Third Leg: Then don't be medicated. There seem to be a lot of people in this thread talking like someone is shoving pills down their throat on the 15th day. If you don't feel you have a problem, don't go see a shrink. If you want therapy but don't want meds, then don't take them. If your doctor is pushing drugs on you that you don't want to take, perhaps it's time to find a new doctor.


And twice in one thread, this.  Christ people.  'Nooo, my grief is miiiiine, I will wear it like a lovely wedding dress eevvvvery day'.  And you're the same morons making fun of emo kids.  If it's not a problem, then don't go to the doctor over it.  If it is, and you want to find ways to carry on your goddamn life, go.  Talk it out.  It doesn't lessen the goddamn death of whoever you lost, it doesn't change a goddamn thing, except maybe your ability to carry on functioning as a human being.  You can still be bereaved for fifty goddamn years for all I or anyone cares.  The sadness pretty much never goes away.  Being a wreck of a human being living on disability, unable to deal with interacting with others or even bathe yourself however, CAN go away.

As for the asshole upthread who tried to patronize me about grief, fark yourself in the ass with your own genitals, whichever gender you happen to be.  You don't know me, and fark you for being a patronizing cocksucker.  "Oooh, my grief is so poooiignant. omnomnomnom it is as deep and soulful as the smell of my own farts. omnomnomnom." fark yourself.
2013-02-23 02:08:59 AM
1 votes:

Fano: Well, that's true too. I was just finding a way to NOT be an asshole to Parnell.


It's appreciated.

Third Leg: Then don't be medicated. There seem to be a lot of people in this thread talking like someone is shoving pills down their throat on the 15th day. If you don't feel you have a problem, don't go see a shrink. If you want therapy but don't want meds, then don't take them. If your doctor is pushing drugs on you that you don't want to take, perhaps it's time to find a new doctor.


But the people trust the doctor to give them proper guidance, and when the doctor says he recommends medication they accept it. You can also maybe blame patients for wanting an easy solution just as much as the doctors.

I know in some cases of alleged mental illness medication can literally be forced on people, and that's what i'm most worried about when i hear things like this.
2013-02-23 01:37:59 AM
1 votes:
I think the point of this revision is to allow people who are really messed up to get help earlier rather than later. I lost my dad and then 9 weeks later my father-in-law. Then a few months after that, my cat. All thanks to cancer (my dad had pancreatic cancer, specifically adenocarcinoma, and my FIL soft tissue sarcoma, and my cat also adenocarcinoma). Let me just say that that was the worst 18-20 months of my life. Severe depression (but no suicidal thoughts), terrible insomnia, the inability to focus or accomplish anything. It was a really good thing I'd just gotten laid off when all this shiat hit the fan. I didn't have to pull myself together for work. Unfortunately, I also moved across the country at the same time, so I lost my support network (aside from my SO; of course I just lost my FIL, too so....)

In short, it's not a big deal. It's designed to help people who really need help. I never went to a doctor because I knew it had to do with all the death, and disliking Seattle, and not being able to find a job (after a while). I'm much better now, but I still miss Dad, Tom, and my cat. I'm able to move on with my life, and I'm about to start school again. I never would have been able to do that (successfully) right when all that crap was going on, though. And imagine if your spouse died and you were suddenly a single parent. You'd practically NEED drugs to carry on raising your family!
2013-02-23 01:07:24 AM
1 votes:

Fano: J. Frank Parnell: LowbrowDeluxe: And if it is negatively impacting your ability to function in society, wouldn't that be something that needs fixing

No. I'm sure a lot of corporate efficiency experts get steamed about people taking time off work to grieve or for other emotional issues, but that's just how things are. At least until they drug us all into a zombie state and everything runs like clockwork.

That's a shame that is just criminal. I feel sure that there was pressure from such entities to define the time period to "buck up or shut up." Or get some meds to fix you right up.

As my abnormal psych prof said about depression "there are times when you SHOULD feel sad, and shouldn't be medicated. Bereavement is one of them."


Then don't be medicated. There seem to be a lot of people in this thread talking like someone is shoving pills down their throat on the 15th day. If you don't feel you have a problem, don't go see a shrink. If you want therapy but don't want meds, then don't take them. If your doctor is pushing drugs on you that you don't want to take, perhaps it's time to find a new doctor.

Am I wrong in my understanding that some insurance won't cover meds/therapy if you don't have a diagnosable condition? Seems like this change could be helpful to folks who are debilitated by grief, whereas it will have no effect on anyone else. Guess I just don't see the problem.
2013-02-23 12:48:54 AM
1 votes:
Fark that. I had my daughter die in my arms. It was thirteen years ago, but god damn if anyone is going to tell me my grief is insane.

Somebody obviously wants a punch in the nose.
2013-02-22 09:56:11 PM
1 votes:
there's a pill that gets Bob out of your body?
2013-02-22 09:32:04 PM
1 votes:

LowbrowDeluxe: And if it is negatively impacting your ability to function in society, wouldn't that be something that needs fixing


No. I'm sure a lot of corporate efficiency experts get steamed about people taking time off work to grieve or for other emotional issues, but that's just how things are. At least until they drug us all into a zombie state and everything runs like clockwork.
2013-02-22 09:09:15 PM
1 votes:

LowbrowDeluxe: And if it is negatively impacting your ability to function in society, wouldn't that be something that needs fixing through either talking it out, or group hugs, or whatever it ends up taking?


Some things can't be fixed. Treasure this time in your life. The ability to be naive' about grief is a temporary state. Enjoy it.
2013-02-22 08:08:51 PM
1 votes:

if_i_really_have_to: Oh this bullshiat again.  Is this the fourth or fifth article that Fark has greenlighted on the same rubbish?  "LOL I don't know anything about how mental illness is diagnosed but this sounds dumb so I'm just going to believe it LOL WTF LOL."  I'm not sure what Prof Larson (not a medical doctor, by the way) has against it, and as a professor in psychology he should know better.

Here is the criteria (one of many) they seem to be talking about changing:
[cut]


Thanks.  I was going to ask on that in a comment since it seemed just too absurd to call someone mentally ill if they are sad for two weeks after their child dies.

So basically what the guidelines are referring to is not being sad or having pain over the loss.  It is talking about severe inability to function above and beyond what most of us experience?

/Words often don't mean exactly the same thing in professional-speak as they do ordinary vernacular English.
2013-02-22 07:38:15 PM
1 votes:

Skail: sno man: lose a baby and get back to me with your list in two weeks, big guy.

Or a spouse...


Or a parent or a best friend or a mentor.

A loss of some that's close to you or you highly regard, especially when it's unexpected or sudden, is going to make an impact.  Putting a time limit on someone's grief or feeling like there's something wrong with that person for grieving is only going to make it harder for them to actually work through it, fully cope with it, and eventually, hopefully move on.  It's not an on/off switch, it's a day to day battle towards peace.  Those around someone grieving thinking otherwise only makes the person trying their best to cope work that much harder because now they're grieving and have people forcing them to meet expectations they may not yet be able to fully handle.

And still, at the end of the day, some losses you never really recover from.
2013-02-22 07:33:07 PM
1 votes:
I wrote an article on complicated grief for an upcoming academic collection.  Essentially, the psychology of it pertains not necessarily to grieving, but to the near-obsession with the greiving process, which may include getting "stuck" in a stage of grief for far too long.  It can also include things like calling your dead friend's voicemail several times a day, or constantly carrying around a trinket of the deceased, and so on.  What makes this so tricky is that the psychologist must recognize when the grieving process has switched from healthy to obsessive.  This will vary widely for different people, but at least the warning signs are out there.
2013-02-22 07:27:55 PM
1 votes:

cgraves67: Wow. The current standard is 2 months. Crap. I've never lost a spouse, but I think I would grieve for a lot longer than 2 months.


I did, and I did.
2013-02-22 07:18:37 PM
1 votes:

sno man: lose a baby and get back to me with your list in two weeks, big guy.


Or a spouse...
2013-02-22 06:58:26 PM
1 votes:
Coming up on the third anniversary of my daughter's death.

/Yep, still depressed.
2013-02-22 06:53:12 PM
1 votes:
WTF I couldn't imagine being fine and dandy after two weeks if my wife died.
2013-02-22 06:39:33 PM
1 votes:
Um, my experience is that two YEARS is the minimum before you begin to break out of the fog of a significant loss.  Don't get me wrong, that doesn't get you happy, just usually tired of feeling crappy and ready to begin experiencing life again.

/16 years in May...
2013-02-22 06:05:36 PM
1 votes:

UseUrHeadFred: You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand.  They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are.

If we lose them, we lose ourselves.

I don't want my pain taken away!  I need my pain!


easily the worst in the franchise... but the quote is on point.
2013-02-22 05:52:27 PM
1 votes:
You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with a wave of a magic wand.  They're the things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are.

If we lose them, we lose ourselves.

I don't want my pain taken away!  I need my pain!
2013-02-22 05:33:28 PM
1 votes:
BigJake I would expect most non-mentally ill people to grieve for a lot longer than that for certain events. A parent losing a child, for instance. A pet, maybe not so much.

Depends on the child. Depends on the pet.
2013-02-22 05:29:40 PM
1 votes:
Good grief!
2013-02-22 05:28:34 PM
1 votes:
I would expect most non-mentally ill people to grieve for a lot longer than that for certain events. A parent losing a child, for instance. A pet, maybe not so much.
2013-02-22 05:19:30 PM
1 votes:

ourbigdumbmouth: Welcome to the New America!!! Where everyone has a mental disorder therefor no one has constitutional rights!!!


Hshahshahaha!!!!'n


The inability to RTFA should be a mental disorder.
2013-02-22 04:59:57 PM
1 votes:
So... Republicans?
2013-02-22 04:56:12 PM
1 votes:
"We are essentially labelling grief a disorder. Now it becomes a target for drug development."

/DUH
 
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