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(Reason Magazine)   Dear Media: Stop mixing up "Preppers" with "Survivalists" we are two very different groups. One group prepares in case of the worst and are sane people and the other are survivalist gun nuts   (reason.com) divider line 408
    More: Obvious, Jesse Walker, Rick Perlstein, morally superior, shooting sports, Wal, political action, Thomas Hobbes, Sandy Hook  
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6825 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Feb 2013 at 5:39 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-22 11:22:03 PM  

Thingster: In "prepper" terms there's "the shiat hitting the fan/TSHF" and there's "the end of the world as we know it/TEOTWAWKI"

TSHF is a disruption of moderate length, maybe up to a year where one would have to feed/water themselves.

TEOTWAWKI is a cataclysmic event that pretty much sends us back to the dark ages.

The former is "being prepared", the latter is nuttiness. Where you draw the line is up to you.


I'm not sure if you're saying that the expectation of TEOTWAWKI is nuttiness, or the preparation for it. If it's the latter, I'd be inclined to agree -- you can't reasonably expect to prepare for the permanent collapse of civilization, unless you're a Conan the Barbarian type (with an M-16 rather than a magic sword). But if it's the former, it should be pointed out that TEOTWAWKI though unlikely is not inconceivable; those of us who grew up in the 1980s were regaled with endless tales of the "nuclear winter" that would follow the next world war, for example -- you can watch the movie Threads to see what I mean. Civilization is neither as fragile as the more extreme survivalists suggest (that we're all nine meals away from anarchy etc.) or as guaranteed as the optimists might think.
 
2013-02-22 11:23:08 PM  

Thingster: TSHF is a disruption of moderate length, maybe up to a year where one would have to feed/water themselves.

TEOTWAWKI is a cataclysmic event that pretty much sends us back to the dark ages.

The former is "being prepared", the latter is nuttiness. Where you draw the line is up to you.


holy crap! there are acronyms for this !!! 
tyverymuch!!
 
2013-02-22 11:27:41 PM  
There is a bell curve of preparedness. In the middle are those of us who pretty much depend on the  grocery store to survive. In the hiest percentiles of preparedness there are people who are prepared for a range of likely scenarios, like natural disasters, civil unrest, power plant fire, etc...... All the way up to the nuts who are planning what to do when they look out the window and see flying dragons being ridden by Zombie overlords. 

But as wacky as those people are, down in the lowest percentiles of preparedness there are people who literally are only hours away from being essentially homeless with no food or even a map when the power cuts off. Most welfare families fall into this category. No supplies, living day to day off the SNAP card, more worried about getting a box of cigarettes than a gallon of fresh water. 

Given that in any emergency event we all start to slide to the bottom of the bell curve as our food runs out and our plans reach their time limits.....I'd rather be somewhere on the high end of the bell curve, about the 75th percentile.

For me this means about six weeks of food, 20 gallons of spare gasoline, strong doors and locks, a couple firearms in the home, and some idea of where to go if the food runs out or there are major riots. 

You can get this prepared for a couple thousand dollars. If you have kids you should be at least this prepared.

And before you start throwing stones at the preppers, just remember the old ladies on Staten Island, sitting in the cold and dark waiting for Mayor Bloomberg to send them food and water and heat. They were literally a 40 minute drive from civilization, but they still sat there freezing and complaining. 

Dont be a cranky staten island granny lady.
 
2013-02-22 11:28:29 PM  

namatad: spaten: When did having a few extra supplies on hand become a liberal hate magnet?

when did laughing at crazy people become "liberal hate magnet"??

/no, having supplies to deal with your local probable disaster is rational. having 10x the needed amount is crazy.
/planning for an unavoidable (meteors and nuclear war (nothing that you can do can avoid this)) or planning for running out of oil or global warming is just nutty


I've been reading fark politics too much and the morans on there...

How to make an arrowhead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6QO2DthGPc
 
2013-02-22 11:36:57 PM  

Gyrfalcon: The point is, it wasn't having plenty of food available that kept people and society alive. It was society that kept people alive.


Well, to be more specific their "society" involved two other things we mostly don't have today: a shared religion that told you you'd go to hell if you committed murder, rape, robbery, etc.; and a shared culture which made it more likely that you'd help out your neighbour in case of an emergency, since he was likely to be closely or distantly related to you -- or at the very least, was someone who shared your language, traditions, and faith.

Now, if the Black Death were to strike the modern United States it'd be afflicting a population which is already bitterly divided amongst itself, whether politically, racially, or economically. Can you imagine the survivors of a blighted Los Angeles or Detroit deciding to pull together for the common good because of some abstract commitment to "society"? Not bloody likely. Those American preppers who are arming themselves for a societal breakdown are wiser than you might think: not because such a breakdown is inevitable, but because if one ever does arrive there will be rivers of blood in the streets.
 
2013-02-22 11:38:53 PM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: it should be pointed out that TEOTWAWKI though unlikely is not inconceivable


meh
Part of the problem is that people are terrible at assessing risk and assigning probabilities.
While I am not sure how one calculates the probability of TEOTWAWKI, I do question the people who get all crazy about it.
I too remember the threat of MAD and nuclear winter. Even with it gone there are a huge number of other TEOTWAWKI scenarios.
Meteors, super volcanoes, toss in man-made viri/nano-whatever/run away AIs, massive solar flares. The list goes on and on.
The likelihood that the massive (and minor) extinction events were all caused by only one type of TEOTWAWKI is very unlikely.

On the other hand, we can calculate how often these various events happen over time and calculate how likely they are to happen.
In the end, meh.

/I dont remeber if I stopped fearing the bomb, became inured to it, 1989-1991 happened, or I just got to old to care.
/On the plus side, I live at ground zero Chicago. I would not have survived even a small-scale nuclear war, so why waste a second worried about it?
 
2013-02-22 11:42:41 PM  
TEOTWAWKI

What does a Polynesian island have to do with Preppers?
 
2013-02-22 11:43:11 PM  
spiderpaz
That being said, it seems like the people really enthused about preparing for the end are the ones that are not prepared for the present - i.e. impoverished rednecks who are economic failures. It's like they lost at life, so they make themselves feel better by convincing themselves they're going to be on top when society breaks down.

upload.wikimedia.org


TiiiMMMaHHH
Should an event happen, people will revert to that animal behavior during face to face confrontations.

farm4.static.flickr.com


duenor
I can't validate my friends' stories because they were never covered by the media. But how about wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orle a ns

You really, really should double-check those citations. The first one is The Globe and Mail. One of the citations is from an article titled "Katrina takes a toll on truth, news accuracy". This is why Wikipedia is not a valid source.


Nutsac_Jim
Oh.. and farmers will probably not take your worthless paper currency.
Better hope you have a lot of 5 ounce silver bars.


If things collapse to the point where fiat currency doesn't function, silver will just be shiny metal.


MurphyMurphy
The only way to survive a collapse of society is to replace that lost society with a new one. Reintegration with your neighbors, building new supply lines and securing new alliances with others doing the same. Helping others so they will (hopefully) in turn help you.

Like I said before, this is the difference between preppers and survivalists.
 
2013-02-22 11:44:58 PM  

spaten: How to make an arrowhead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6QO2DthGPc


I love these kind of videos. Watching the crafting of tools, of any sort. I actually spent a few minutes googling where to buy blocks of flint. Luckily I am lazy and stopped before buying rocks.

On the OTHER hand, I own a couple large amazing sharpening stones and know how to use them.  http://www.bestsharpeningstones.com/catalog/Razor-Edge-Sharpening-Sto n es.htm
So meh, when  TEOTWAWKI happens, if I survive, there will certainly be a lot of knives laying about, which I would be able to keep sharp until long after I am dead.
 
2013-02-22 11:54:56 PM  

spaten: Peppermint Rose: The prepper or survivalist people I know are so ineffective in day to day life they live in a fantasy world. I'm not talking about some water, some food and some guns. I'm talking about we're preparing for the end of the world nut jobs. They can't keep a job, balance a checkbook have no friends but when the big bad gubmint (from which they derive most of their income) enacts the plan to kill them off then they'll finally be the successful popular person important person they were meant to be. It's a really sad and unhealthy way to live.

So you don't think it is healthy to have a hobby? I flint knapp and make stone tools as a hobby. It could be interpreted by the MSM as dangerous thing.

With certain martial arts stone tools can be lethal.


Hobbies are cool but there's a difference between a hobby (even if your hobby happens to be some sort of long term LARP) and the prepper survivalist thing. If you are seriously devoting significant time, energy and resources to being prepared for some sort of long term Mad Max primitive existence then you've checked out of reality. If you want a sustainable farm or like to hunt or even go out and live off the land with no modern conveniences for an extended period more power to you. However, when your whole life revolves around and a large portion of your self worth derives from the I'm going to be the lone survivor holed up with my canned goods and guns fantasy is batshiat insane and in my experience is most common among people who are or at least feel like failures in real life. They aren't strong enough (mentally and/or emotionally) to cope with reality so they escape and retreat to their fantasy while lying to themselves (and everyone else) about what reality is. They don't have time or care about their job or family or have time for fun they have the SERIOUS BUSINESS of preparing for the imminent apocalypse to tend to.
 
2013-02-22 11:56:07 PM  

namatad: /I dont remeber if I stopped fearing the bomb, became inured to it, 1989-1991 happened


Trust your government, They have your best interests::


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1WAifopzFY


/Uncle was there in the infantry.
 
2013-02-23 12:17:47 AM  

Peppermint Rose: However, when your whole life revolves around and a large portion of your self worth derives from the I'm going to be the lone survivor holed up with my canned goods and guns fantasy is batshiat insane and in my experience is most common among people who are or at least feel like failures in real life. They aren't strong enough (mentally and/or emotionally) to cope with reality so they escape and retreat to their fantasy while lying to themselves (and everyone else) about what reality is. They don't have time or care about their job or family or have time for fun they have the SERIOUS BUSINESS of preparing for the imminent apocalypse to tend to.


I don't totally disagree with you -- there are certainly people out there who would like civilization to collapse so that they could gratify their lust for domination, revenge or whatever else -- but we must be wary of the idea that we can psychoanalyze large numbers of people we haven't met just because they can imagine a scenario in which they might be isolated with their provisions in a hostile environment. There are, sadly, perfectly rational reasons to conclude that our current civilization is fracturing along various lines and is in danger of at least a partial collapse, and naturally enough some of the few people who have correctly anticipated the prospect of that collapse will have adopted the defensive posture of buying canned goods and firearms (however effective these might be in an actual prolonged emergency). Focussing on these people as representing some kind of problem in themselves only distracts us from addressing the structural weaknesses of our society that have given rise to their fears in the first place; after all, there has to be a reason why talk of social and economic collapse has recently been increasing other than supposing that everyone is going crazy or is secretly evil, a "loser", a racist, etc.
 
2013-02-23 12:30:15 AM  
Trust your government: Electric Boogolooo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BUJ4qralls
 
2013-02-23 12:53:07 AM  
Preparing for hurricanes isn't paranoid.  Preparing for the collapse of society is.
 
2013-02-23 12:54:03 AM  

edmo: Which is which?

[sannekurz.files.wordpress.com image 510x509]


After all these years, that picture is still disturbing.
 
2013-02-23 12:57:39 AM  

Gyrfalcon: I'm just not sure what exactly the preppers think is going to happen even if there was some kind of pandemic (which takes time to develop) or disaster or war. And an economic collapse is very slow, it's not like the currency gets devalued and instantly stores vanish into the ground. What do folks think they're prepping FOR?


I would imagine they don't trust banks, either.  And grocery stores will be full of empty shelves. Gas will be 10 bucks a gallon.   Martial law.  Stuff like that.  I'm sure we could go on all night.

They're not worried about a pandemic. They think Obama is some kind of ultimate socialist whose Presidency is the culmination of 50 years of "big government."  Never mind that some of his predecessors were some of the worst human beings on the planet.
 
2013-02-23 12:57:41 AM  
There is a much better chance of societal collapse than a hurricane here.
 
2013-02-23 12:59:22 AM  

Rapmaster2000: I can't wait until the apocalypse finally goes down and I don't have to go to work any more.  Then you'll all be like "Oh, that Rapmaster2000 was right and I'm stupid.  I should have listened to that handsome devil!"


The pic in your profile proves you aren't handsome.  Even if you shaved.
 
2013-02-23 01:09:48 AM  
 
2013-02-23 01:11:01 AM  

spaten: [bronxbanter.arneson.name image 450x335]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYW7GnYEAik


Just post a picture of a red throbbing butt.  It's more you than any of the nonsense you've been trying to pull here.
 
2013-02-23 01:13:13 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Peppermint Rose: However, when your whole life revolves around and a large portion of your self worth derives from the I'm going to be the lone survivor holed up with my canned goods and guns fantasy is batshiat insane and in my experience is most common among people who are or at least feel like failures in real life. They aren't strong enough (mentally and/or emotionally) to cope with reality so they escape and retreat to their fantasy while lying to themselves (and everyone else) about what reality is. They don't have time or care about their job or family or have time for fun they have the SERIOUS BUSINESS of preparing for the imminent apocalypse to tend to.

I don't totally disagree with you -- there are certainly people out there who would like civilization to collapse so that they could gratify their lust for domination, revenge or whatever else -- but we must be wary of the idea that we can psychoanalyze large numbers of people we haven't met just because they can imagine a scenario in which they might be isolated with their provisions in a hostile environment. There are, sadly, perfectly rational reasons to conclude that our current civilization is fracturing along various lines and is in danger of at least a partial collapse, and naturally enough some of the few people who have correctly anticipated the prospect of that collapse will have adopted the defensive posture of buying canned goods and firearms (however effective these might be in an actual prolonged emergency). Focussing on these people as representing some kind of problem in themselves only distracts us from addressing the structural weaknesses of our society that have given rise to their fears in the first place; after all, there has to be a reason why talk of social and economic collapse has recently been increasing other than supposing that everyone is going crazy or is secretly evil, a "loser", a racist, etc.


To be fair a lot of my point and laugh response comes from negative childhood experiences. My grandmother is a very abusive negative person and I don't know if she self identifies as a prepper or survivalist or not. But she definitely has the behaviors at almost 40 I don't remember a time when the government swooping down on her wasn't an imminent threat in her mind. The thing is her "preparations" would not only be useless if anything actually happened but significantly negatively impact not only her life but everyone around her. For instance I won't eat at her house because she doesn't think expiration dates nor refrigeration nor keeping foods hot are in any way useful so besides the food being bad tasting eating it could quite possibly give you severe food poisoning. Now I'm intellectually aware the whole population of survivalists preppers are not necessarily my insane grandmother but the whole mindset of the lone survivor against the world strikes me as a highly improbable if not downright delusional idea. Humans generally need a cooperative community for survival. Maybe it's out there and I don't know because I don't care enough to find out but I don't see much of the cooperative community in the canned goods and guns movement.
 
2013-02-23 01:18:37 AM  

whidbey: spaten: [bronxbanter.arneson.name image 450x335]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HYW7GnYEAik

Just post a picture of a red throbbing butt.  It's more you than any of the nonsense you've been trying to pull here.


What's up whipbey? Do you want to discuss Bastiat vs Marx? Or do you want to suck my dick?
 
2013-02-23 01:28:17 AM  

Bucky Katt: Preparing for hurricanes isn't paranoid.  Preparing for the collapse of society is.


Because society cannot possibly collapse, or...?
 
2013-02-23 01:31:26 AM  

whidbey: They're not worried about a pandemic. They think Obama is some kind of ultimate socialist whose Presidency is the culmination of 50 years of "big government."  Never mind that some of his predecessors were some of the worst human beings on the planet.


That Obama's predecessors were awful does not mean that he himself is not (even more) awful.
 
2013-02-23 01:36:34 AM  

HairBolus: duenor: HairBolus: duenor: Where were nice army reservists where my friends were getting shot at by looters as they were trying to give out supplies in LA?

Have you had your meds checked recently? You seem delusional and prone to make up fantasies and then believe they actually happened.

Ad Hominem, I see.

I can't validate my friends' stories because they were never covered by the media.

What I doubt is that you live in New Orleans and that you actually have face to face friends that were shot at while trying to be good Samaritans during Katrina. Lots of stuff was made up during Katrina to fit a "dangerous animal" narrative as was lots of stuff denied such as cops killing blacks for trying to walk out of NO.

I still think you are delusional and need of a med check and that you consider someone to be a "friend" if you have read something they wrote on the internet in a racist survivalist nutjob vein.


I never said I live in NO. I don't. What you believe is your choice, of course. Why you feel a need to conclude that I'm delusional and in need of meds because you prefer not to recognize that those things did happen, and have happened many times in many past disasters both man-made and natural, is also a choice of yours.

Indeed, I don't see how you can choose to believe that cops killed blacks for trying to walk out of NO (something I haven't heard of, but certainly plausible) and yet do not want to believe (or even recognize as plausible) that aid workers (my friends included) could have been shot at in spite of both references and my own description. I guess that says something for your social perspective.
 
2013-02-23 01:40:06 AM  

nmemkha: Preppers are morons. I don't care how fortified you are, the unprepared outnumber you 100,000+ to 1. They will find a way to take your shiat eventually.


Therefore, why bother to prepare? Might as well resign yourself to joining the looters from the get-go.
Yep, it's people like you that convince me that I ought to be prepared to defend myself.
 
2013-02-23 01:44:25 AM  

whidbey: Gyrfalcon: I'm just not sure what exactly the preppers think is going to happen even if there was some kind of pandemic (which takes time to develop) or disaster or war. And an economic collapse is very slow, it's not like the currency gets devalued and instantly stores vanish into the ground. What do folks think they're prepping FOR?

I would imagine they don't trust banks, either.  And grocery stores will be full of empty shelves. Gas will be 10 bucks a gallon.   Martial law.  Stuff like that.  I'm sure we could go on all night.

They're not worried about a pandemic. They think Obama is some kind of ultimate socialist whose Presidency is the culmination of 50 years of "big government."  Never mind that some of his predecessors were some of the worst human beings on the planet.


You are an useful idiot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

fark you, Comrade.
 
2013-02-23 01:44:25 AM  

RanDomino: If things collapse to the point where fiat currency doesn't function, silver will just be shiny metal.


Useful in a werewolf apocalypse, though. Prep-vivalists don't really need a better reason than that to hoard it.

Or they'll point out that silver compounds are used in massive quantities in the photography industry, then prepare for an apocalypse in which all commerce and civilization fails except for Fotomats. (Oh, and dentists. Society will collapse to the point that your grandchildren are barely human, but dentistry will still need silver for fillings.)

Also, since existing stores of silver polish will quickly be depleted, it'll actually just be dingy black metal. But yeah.
 
2013-02-23 01:45:19 AM  

mesmer242: Letting your family guilt you into hoarding months of supplies?


Why is it that you believe it is "hoarding"? You know, the government spent your tax money to make sure they have adequately stocked shelters, just in case. They have years' worth of everything, just sitting around, just in case. Is the federal government a hoarding prepper? If their behavior is acceptable, why is it unacceptable for a private individual to act in the same manner? Also, we all have choices to make in life. If one person chooses to spend all their money on worthless crap, are they "hoarding" worthless crap? If you spend your money on beer, cigarettes, and strippers while someone else spends theirs on food, medical supplies, toilet paper, etc, haven't you both spent your money in the manner you each chose? Why is the guy who actually has something to show for it supposedly bad? I just don't understand people's mindsets sometimes.
 
2013-02-23 01:45:56 AM  

Yes, these replies are in reverse chronological order. I can't be bothered fixing it. Deal with it.

Kanemano: Sushi is just fish and rice.....that's it. I am positive I can find better sushi at the deli counter in the Lawson's in Akahibara  than most places on the mainland,

it's like saying there are no hot dogs unless you are eating one at 72nd and Broadway.


Know how I know you've never had real sushi?

"In Japan becoming an itamae of sushi requires years of on-the-job training and apprenticeship. Typically, after five years or so spent working with a master or teacher itamae, the apprentice is given his first important task related to making sushi: preparation of the sushi rice. The rice is prepared according to the strict instructions of the senior itamae, and each sushi restaurant has its own "secret" recipe of rice, salt and rice vinegar. Once the senior itamae is satisfied with the consistency of the sushi rice made daily by the apprentice, the apprentice may then be promoted.

This promotion puts the apprentice in a more prominent location, next to the senior itamae. This position is called "wakiita", that means "near the cutting board". The wakiita's duties expand to include daily preparation of the fresh ingredients, such as preparing blocks of fish, grating ginger, and slicing scallions. Eventually the apprentice might begin to prepare sushi for clients with take away orders. The wakiita also learns the proper ways to interact with and treat the restaurant's customers by observing the senior itamae.

After additional years of training as a wakiita, the apprentice can be appointed an itamae, fully authorized to stand in front of the cutting board.  "


Ow! That was my feelings!: Fair point.  The counter experience can be part of the enjoyment, for sure.  But my gf and I get take out sushi occasionally due to both our work schedules not always being compatible to 2 hours of counter time.  Same fish, same prep, takes 2 mins to get home from picking it up.  Still sushi, still damn good.


Same fish and prep as your typical American sushi restaurant. Which again, has little to do with real sushi.

No self-respecting, properly-trained sushi chef would be caught dead making sushi to-go. And just because your local supermarket went the whole hog, found an Asian-American kid for "authenticity", and showed him how to squeeze rice and seaweed into a roll and slice it doesn't mean he's a sushi chef.

Kanemano: [farm3.staticflickr.com image 483x362]

HUH?


That is to sushi as a Twinkie is to cakes.

Ow! That was my feelings!: Nice, a sushi expert from Tennessee.  You are hilariously wrong.


Bill_Wick's_Friend: I'm pretty sure that a guy in Tennessee with a Chinese screen name isn't my go-to authority on sushi.

(There is plenty of excellent gourmet sushi take out in Vancouver and San Fran)


I'm pretty sure that the guy you're mocking has spent more than half his life living in Asia, and has eaten more authentic sushi than you've ever seen.
 
2013-02-23 01:46:29 AM  

specialkae: My recent "prepper" experience (and I do use that term very, very lightly). In my 'hood we have overhead power lines.  Consequence is as such, at least several times each winter and even sometimes in the summer, due to high winds/snow/aliens/whatever our power goes out for a few hours.  Now, I was a Girl Scout, so I am usually prepared for minor emergencies.  Instead of sitting in the dark waiting for the power and heat to come back on, I pulled out my emergency box of candles (tea lights and lots of 'em), my Maglite and a fresh pack of batteries as well as located our extra blankets and sheets if we were all going to have to trap ourselves in one room to conserve heat (I live with 3 men, and no, not as giggity as it sounds).  I knew where everything was and it only took me about 10 minutes to get my house ok for the duration.  I was proud of me.  Ok, not quite prepper level but I used to be there.  I had a pantry with approximately 3 months worth of food for 2 people and over 100 rolls of TP at one point.  Trouble is now I don't have quite the space I used to, but I'm working on retrofitting the closet in the office to become our new backup supply storage area.  Oh yeah, and we have guns too, but not a whole bunch of them and everyone in my house goes to the shooting range at least once a year so that we ensure that we basically know how to operate them if we ever would need to-heaven forefend.


Well done. It's not about the catastrophic collapse of civilization, but rather being prepared enough to not have to be a burden on rescue workers, neighbors, family and friends at a time when they themselves are stretched thin. Granted, you can still get screwed by nature no matter how prepared you are. But I strongly believe that being prepared is not only the wise thing to do, but also the socially responsible thing to do. 

I'd much rather share my food and shelter with my neighbors than have to beg them to share what little they have with me and my family.
 
2013-02-23 01:52:09 AM  

super_grass: pedrop357: super_grass: There is something disturbing about people trying to assert their independence from society. It gives them less of a stake in the government and social stability in general and therefore less motivation to support these institutions.

Society is a contract that you sign by simply existing and you have no right to bail on it and fend for yourself once things get hairy. Those who think otherwise should have no rights as human beings and should be treated as such.

meta or poe's law?

What if they decide that independence from society is part of the "social contract"?  I mean anyone can assert damn near anything as being in the social contract given that it's not a real document.

Your so called "rugged individualism" is delusion at best and a mental disorder at worst.

Civilization survives only when everyone in it depends on its survival.  Do you think that ant colonies can exist if individual ants were capable of realizing that they can survive on their own? Unfortunately, people have the free will to mistakenly separate themselves from the good of the many and this is why we evolved ridicule to keep people in check.  It's too bad that mockery alone is inadequate for the newest generation of idiots and now they're allowed to continue their retardation without being tarred and feathered.

Just don't be surprised when we come knocking at your door to take your hoarded supplies when disaster strikes.


Yep, this thread is full of looters. You need evidence that after a disaster there'll be those who'll use violence to get what they want? Well, no disaster's struck and already these folks are planning on surviving by pillaging neighbors.
 
2013-02-23 01:53:25 AM  
Wait wait wait. FTFA:

My friend Ceredwyn Alexander lives on a homestead in the mountains of Vermont. She and her family raise a lot of their own food, from chickens to cabbage, and they heat their home with wood they chop themselves. (She won't live anywhere, she tells me, "without supplemental heat that operates without electricity.") They worry about peak oil. They try not to buy things on credit. They always keep a great deal of food and water and other supplies on hand. If everything goes to hell tomorrow, they want to be prepared.

Why not buy things on credit? If everything goes to hell tomorrow, I want to be sitting on a shiatload of stuff I bought on credit, don't I? Like, stuff I could never afford if I weren't maxing out my credit cards.

I'm just saying, it sounds like what she's prepping for is that society won't collapse.
 
2013-02-23 01:53:32 AM  
And yes, I know my quote says "take away orders", but that's take away orders made by a chef who's already had half a decade and change of training and observation. And it's a take away order collected from a sushi restaurant by the customer and made fresh to order for the customer.

It's not a mass-produced, poorly-prepared roll made by a guy fresh out of his job at McDonalds, who got 48 hours of training from another guy who amazed him with his six months experience, stuck under cling film and bunged in a fridge for eight or ten hours.

Supermarket sushi often isn't even made with proper fish. It's made with the stuff scraped off the bones after the real sushi-grade meat is gone, even the lowest-grade stuff. Read: mechanically separated. Yes, that is much the same process used to made hot dogs and nuggets, and that should tell you everything you need to know about its "quality".

Citation:  http://www.nola.com/food/index.ssf/2012/04/supermarket_sushi_tuna_lin k ed.html
 
2013-02-23 02:01:40 AM  
Mitch Taylor's Bro: More than six months worth of supplies, more guns and ammo than you can carry and turning your home into a heavily fortified bunker so you can defend your stuff and wait out "TEOTWAKI" is not.  l st ...

I would argue that as long as you aren't pouring your life savings into your preparedness plan, and that your family enjoys life and does not allow that preparedness to dictate one's life decisions entirely, you're fine. If Bill Gates had an underground bunker with 5 years worth of food and a million rounds of ammunition, would you consider him crazy? I wouldn't - and he probably has something like that (and probably far better) already.

Just don't let it become an addiction and fantasy. If that happens, get help.
 
2013-02-23 02:02:23 AM  

untaken_name: Why is it that you believe it is "hoarding"? You know, the government spent your tax money to make sure they have adequately stocked shelters, just in case. They have years' worth of everything, just sitting around, just in case. Is the federal government a hoarding prepper? If their behavior is acceptable, why is it unacceptable for a private individual to act in the same manner?


Careful there, son. You start asking these questions and the next thing you'll also be wondering why the Department of Homeland Security has over the past couple of years purchased 2 billion hollow- point rounds for itself, as well as training targets with pictures of ordinary civilians on them. Such inquiries would have been vital and necessary during the Bush administration, but under the Obama presidency they are simply anti- American (and probably racist to boot).

What you must always remember is that the agents of the State are morally superior to you; this is why they are permitted to stock up on years' worth of supplies, assault weapons, and ammunition that is prohibited by international conventions -- but if you attempt to do any of these things you will be ridiculed as a paranoid survivalist, labelled a far- right- wing extremist, and may even attract the unwelcome attention of law enforcement. And then, of course, you'll deserve everything that is coming to you.
 
2013-02-23 02:04:24 AM  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-jnTqKHAPM

Fighting Fists of Shanghai Joe:
 
2013-02-23 02:08:49 AM  

Peppermint Rose: The prepper or survivalist people I know are so ineffective in day to day life they live in a fantasy world. I'm not talking about some water, some food and some guns. I'm talking about we're preparing for the end of the world nut jobs. They can't keep a job, balance a checkbook have no friends but when the big bad gubmint (from which they derive most of their income) enacts the plan to kill them off then they'll finally be the successful popular person important person they were meant to be. It's a really sad and unhealthy way to live.


That is because the non-mentally-unwell survivalists have the good sense to not let others know (other than close friends and family) what they have at home. The biggest gun safe in the world isn't as secure as nobody thinking that anything is even there.

As this thread shows, there are plenty of people whose disaster survival plan consists mostly of joining a mob and taking what they want by brute force.
 
2013-02-23 02:11:40 AM  
semiotix
Why not buy things on credit? If everything goes to hell tomorrow, I want to be sitting on a shiatload of stuff I bought on credit, don't I? Like, stuff I could never afford if I weren't maxing out my credit cards.

Because after civilization collapses the debt collection agencies will still function, or something.
Actually, this might be the least crazy belief they have.
 
2013-02-23 02:16:56 AM  
RanDomino:
duenor
I can't validate my friends' stories because they were never covered by the media. But how about wikipedia? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orle a ns

You really, really should double-check those citations. The first one is The Globe and Mail. One of the citations is from an article titled "Katrina takes a toll on truth, news accuracy". This is why Wikipedia is not a valid source.


Any internet search, on any reputable academic catalog will return you plenty of evidence regarding the levels of violence during katrina. I did not go there, but I remember reading the newspapers, seeing the armored cars and superdome on tv, and the general state of disbelief most people had about why wasn't the government doing anything to help these people.

I gave wikipedia as a readily available starting point for research by anyone interested in finding out more. my job is not to prove my point to your satisfaction, nor will I feel hurt by your unwillingness to accept historical fact.
 
2013-02-23 02:18:37 AM  

duenor: Peppermint Rose: The prepper or survivalist people I know are so ineffective in day to day life they live in a fantasy world. I'm not talking about some water, some food and some guns. I'm talking about we're preparing for the end of the world nut jobs. They can't keep a job, balance a checkbook have no friends but when the big bad gubmint (from which they derive most of their income) enacts the plan to kill them off then they'll finally be the successful popular person important person they were meant to be. It's a really sad and unhealthy way to live.

That is because the non-mentally-unwell survivalists have the good sense to not let others know (other than close friends and family) what they have at home. The biggest gun safe in the world isn't as secure as nobody thinking that anything is even there.

As this thread shows, there are plenty of people whose disaster survival plan consists mostly of joining a mob and taking what they want by brute force.


The scarier thing is government control via WW1 and WW2...

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

fark war...
 
2013-02-23 02:19:47 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: Gyrfalcon: The point is, it wasn't having plenty of food available that kept people and society alive. It was society that kept people alive.

Well, to be more specific their "society" involved two other things we mostly don't have today: a shared religion that told you you'd go to hell if you committed murder, rape, robbery, etc.; and a shared culture which made it more likely that you'd help out your neighbour in case of an emergency, since he was likely to be closely or distantly related to you -- or at the very least, was someone who shared your language, traditions, and faith.

Now, if the Black Death were to strike the modern United States it'd be afflicting a population which is already bitterly divided amongst itself, whether politically, racially, or economically. Can you imagine the survivors of a blighted Los Angeles or Detroit deciding to pull together for the common good because of some abstract commitment to "society"? Not bloody likely. Those American preppers who are arming themselves for a societal breakdown are wiser than you might think: not because such a breakdown is inevitable, but because if one ever does arrive there will be rivers of blood in the streets.


Mm, maybe, but again, you (and the preppers) are missing the larger point. Social "breakdown" is never fast, complete or sudden. Any calamitous breakdown is always localized and self-limiting. There's just no mechanism that would utterly destroy all social cohesion everywhere for everyone all at once and never let it re-form. You say, for instance "survivors of a blighted Los Angeles." No, the survivors of LOS ANGELES plague might not pull together to re-form Los Angeles...but the various cities and neighborhoods within LA would very certainly pull together and form enclaves within the greater whole. The greater LA area might fragment, but you wouldn't see wild anarchy seething and boiling in the LA basin for years on end.

Which is why this idea that holing up in some remote area and waiting for the anarchy to pass is ridiculous at best, and self-defeating at worst. If the disaster is some kind of plague or economic disaster, it will be very slow to build, and people will have time to adjust (as they did with the Black Death or the decline of Rome). If it is war or an asteroid strike (that beloved ultimate prepper disaster), it will initially be localized and the chaos will burn out quickly at the epicenter. Barring global alien invasion, there's just no way the whole world or even the whole country will collapse into anarchy all at once.

And even if it could, these preppers are operating on mutually exclusive scenarios: That it will be so sudden and all-encompassing they will need all that food, ammo, bombproof bunkers, etc.--BUT--they will nevertheless have time to get themselves and their families safely from wherever they all are to their bunkers and sealed in before the ravening hordes get there. I'm not sure they get both options.
 
2013-02-23 02:28:41 AM  

Gyrfalcon: EvilRacistNaziFascist: Gyrfalcon: The point is, it wasn't having plenty of food available that kept people and society alive. It was society that kept people alive.

Well, to be more specific their "society" involved two other things we mostly don't have today: a shared religion that told you you'd go to hell if you committed murder, rape, robbery, etc.; and a shared culture which made it more likely that you'd help out your neighbour in case of an emergency, since he was likely to be closely or distantly related to you -- or at the very least, was someone who shared your language, traditions, and faith.

Now, if the Black Death were to strike the modern United States it'd be afflicting a population which is already bitterly divided amongst itself, whether politically, racially, or economically. Can you imagine the survivors of a blighted Los Angeles or Detroit deciding to pull together for the common good because of some abstract commitment to "society"? Not bloody likely. Those American preppers who are arming themselves for a societal breakdown are wiser than you might think: not because such a breakdown is inevitable, but because if one ever does arrive there will be rivers of blood in the streets.

Mm, maybe, but again, you (and the preppers) are missing the larger point. Social "breakdown" is never fast, complete or sudden. Any calamitous breakdown is always localized and self-limiting. There's just no mechanism that would utterly destroy all social cohesion everywhere for everyone all at once and never let it re-form. You say, for instance "survivors of a blighted Los Angeles." No, the survivors of LOS ANGELES plague might not pull together to re-form Los Angeles...but the various cities and neighborhoods within LA would very certainly pull together and form enclaves within the greater whole. The greater LA area might fragment, but you wouldn't see wild anarchy seething and boiling in the LA basin for years on end.

Which is why this idea that holing up in so ...


Where did you get the idea that preppers intend to shut themselves away from society? They just don't want to be victims. Most have other prepper friends and in the event of a disaster they will share resources and help each other rebuild.
 
2013-02-23 02:31:51 AM  
The Useful Idiots need a little DK Holiday in Cambodia:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KTsXHXMkJA

scm-l3.technorati.com
 
2013-02-23 02:42:05 AM  

super_grass: There is something disturbing about people trying to assert their independence from society. It gives them less of a stake in the government and social stability in general and therefore less motivation to support these institutions.

Society is a contract that you sign by simply existing and you have no right to bail on it and fend for yourself once things get hairy. Those who think otherwise should have no rights as human beings and should be treated as such.


I agree there's a social contract...but contracts are two-way streets.  How about if your society itself gets 'hairy'?

If your country slides into, say, fascism, THEN can you 'bail' on it?
 
2013-02-23 02:53:29 AM  

gweilo8888: Yes, these replies are in reverse chronological order. I can't be bothered fixing it. Deal with it.

Kanemano: Sushi is just fish and rice.....that's it. I am positive I can find better sushi at the deli counter in the Lawson's in Akahibara  than most places on the mainland,

it's like saying there are no hot dogs unless you are eating one at 72nd and Broadway.

Know how I know you've never had real sushi?

"In Japan becoming an itamae of sushi requires years of on-the-job training and apprenticeship. Typically, after five years or so spent working with a master or teacher itamae, the apprentice is given his first important task related to making sushi: preparation of the sushi rice. The rice is prepared according to the strict instructions of the senior itamae, and each sushi restaurant has its own "secret" recipe of rice, salt and rice vinegar. Once the senior itamae is satisfied with the consistency of the sushi rice made daily by the apprentice, the apprentice may then be promoted.

This promotion puts the apprentice in a more prominent location, next to the senior itamae. This position is called "wakiita", that means "near the cutting board". The wakiita's duties expand to include daily preparation of the fresh ingredients, such as preparing blocks of fish, grating ginger, and slicing scallions. Eventually the apprentice might begin to prepare sushi for clients with take away orders. The wakiita also learns the proper ways to interact with and treat the restaurant's customers by observing the senior itamae.

After additional years of training as a wakiita, the apprentice can be appointed an itamae, fully authorized to stand in front of the cutting board.  "


Ow! That was my feelings!: Fair point.  The counter experience can be part of the enjoyment, for sure.  But my gf and I get take out sushi occasionally due to both our work schedules not always being compatible to 2 hours of counter time.  Same fish, same prep, takes 2 mins to get home from picking it up.  ...


I live in Honolulu, I have eaten in a real sushi restaurants more time than you I bet. I have also been to Japan several times  it's a farking meal nothing more I don't jerk off when I get a great piece of hamachi, or toro, you just say arigato, pay your check and get out, they really don't give a fark I know this because I drink the the staff of Nobu's quite often, they have 1/2 appetizers on Sundays after 6:30PM if you are ever in Honolulu by the way.
 
2013-02-23 02:55:34 AM  

Gyrfalcon: Mm, maybe, but again, you (and the preppers) are missing the larger point. Social "breakdown" is never fast, complete or sudden. Any calamitous breakdown is always localized and self-limiting. There's just no mechanism that would utterly destroy all social cohesion everywhere for everyone all at once and never let it re-form.


I don't think anyone has suggested that social cohesion could never re-form (after all, "never" is a very long time), but it can only re-form to the extent that it was formed to begin with... and of course there are mechanisms that could destroy the social fabric across the US, even if its effects would only be most concentrated in certain areas; suppose for example that a currency collapse and resulting hyperinflation made it impossible for the government to honour its food stamp and Social Security commitments in any meaningful way -- wouldn't this cause chaos to populations scattered across the country who had no other means by which to provide for themselves? Such a collapse could indeed happen relatively rapidly, over a matter of weeks, for example.

The greater LA area might fragment, but you wouldn't see wild anarchy seething and boiling in the LA basin for years on end.

I completely agree. The one thing you can guarantee in any really anarchic situation is that some strongman or other will eventually rise to prominence in at least a limited area, promising protection from violence in return for some kind of allegiance. But once Los Angeles is fragmented, there is no particular reason to suppose that it will necessarily ever be reunited. And an LA with socially fragmented neighbourhoods (however internally cohesive they might be) pitted against each other in local turf wars isn't really all that far off from the "seething and boiling" you describe.

If the disaster is some kind of plague or economic disaster, it will be very slow to build, and people will have time to adjust (as they did with the Black Death or the decline of Rome).

I'm not sure about that. A plague or an economic crash could take place within a matter of weeks. Did 14th- century people really see the Black Death coming and adjust for it? From what I've read, one third of the population of Europe died, so whatever preparations they might have made were ultimately in vain; whether or not you survived was a matter of luck. As for the decline of Rome, that was a very long drawn- out process that is obvious to us in retrospect but may not have been apparent to those living through it, as they lacked the historical precedent to make sense of the whole business (at least until the barbarians were at the gates).

Bottom line is, we don't know what is going to happen in the future, so why not set aside a few provisions in case of a rainy day? If we're wrong and nothing bad is going to happen, we at least can consume the provisions later, but if we're right and bad times are ahead we'll be glad that we have them. What could be more reasonable than that?
 
2013-02-23 02:59:40 AM  
images2.wikia.nocookie.net ]

static.zenimax.com
 
2013-02-23 03:01:42 AM  
duenor
Any internet search, on any reputable academic catalog will return you plenty of evidence rumors regarding the levels of violence during katrina.

FTFY
 
2013-02-23 03:02:18 AM  

EvilRacistNaziFascist: whidbey: They're not worried about a pandemic. They think Obama is some kind of ultimate socialist whose Presidency is the culmination of 50 years of "big government."  Never mind that some of his predecessors were some of the worst human beings on the planet.

That Obama's predecessors were awful does not mean that he himself is not (even more) awful.


Dude, inheriting a Preperation H Factory wouldn't help you at this point.
 
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