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(Reason Magazine)   Dear Media: Stop mixing up "Preppers" with "Survivalists" we are two very different groups. One group prepares in case of the worst and are sane people and the other are survivalist gun nuts   (reason.com) divider line 408
    More: Obvious, Jesse Walker, Rick Perlstein, morally superior, shooting sports, Wal, political action, Thomas Hobbes, Sandy Hook  
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6792 clicks; posted to Main » on 22 Feb 2013 at 5:39 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-22 06:24:43 PM

Kanemano: I am positive I can find better sushi at the deli counter in the Lawson's in Akahibara than most places on the mainland,


And yet you post a picture of Inari and salad rolls.

Do you know what's always left over at the end of the day? Inari and salad rolls.

I just had sushi last night. It's an entirely different food when the chef has just popped it all together and the rice is still warm, the vinegar hasn't run off, and the fish hasn't dried hard on the corners yet.
 
2013-02-22 06:24:49 PM

HeadLever: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Anybody who has survival fantasies where they are on their own for long periods, fighting for their lives, is delusional.

Not sure if they will be inclined to fantasize about fighting for their lives so much as trying to live on their own.  For that case a nice healthy stash of guns and ammo would be pretty helpful for both defense and gathering of meat.


Live on your own how and where?  Most people live in fairly urban environments, the military will round people up to control them more easily if martial law is declared.
 
2013-02-22 06:24:54 PM

rubi_con_man: titwrench: I have enough food and water to last me a 2 weeks (not rationing) in case of emergency, 5 weeks if I ration and take in the bare minimum. It is packed in such a way that I can be out of the house within 5 minutes with everything including important documents, camping gear and my guns (taking them just so they are not left behind). I live in earthquake and fire land and have had to evecuate for a fire once. I also have a few survival related items in my truck at all times just in case I get stuck 4 wheeling I can hole up for a couple days. My friends think I am weird, at least they did until all of the power in San Diego and surrounding areas went out for 12 hours about a year and a half ago, I was the only one that had electricity (generator). You can be prepered without being a crackpot.

Is it a bad thing to mention that my wife wants to have a 300 gallon water tank in the attic of our new house as well as replacing all the conifers in the yard with fruit trees? We already have all the good 'free' space devoted to vegetable gardens and a small amount of grapes. I make beer regularly, and enjoy making my own cheeses and Yogurts. She also wants a wood pellet stove (I am going to have to show her my Franklin stove, and show her how I handle and axe and maul) and a generator in the basement that can run off either gasoline or the heating oil in our tank. All this and we live in New York City. I am waiting for her to ask for a brace of hens.


Here's the one problem with all that.  If something bad enough happens where you'll need all those things, everyone who has ever seen your backyard will make your place the first stop on the world looting tour.
 
2013-02-22 06:25:25 PM

ZeroPly: Bait.


Whoa, that IS a good one.
 
2013-02-22 06:26:03 PM
You could also look at it like this: "Preppers" are often playing the disaster lottery. If they don't have the resources to get by in the current climate, they prepare for a different climate and hope they get 'lucky' with the climate change.
 
2013-02-22 06:26:31 PM

Kanemano: doglover: Kanemano: gweilo8888: GAT_00: what_now: I have a good friend who has over a dozen guns, complete with cases, ammo and cleaning supplies hidden in various places in his apartment. He and his partner have a backpack each with disaster supplies and medicine.

Both of these men would shrivel up and die if they couldn't get takeout sushi, or the bar ran out of bitters. It's....really really weird.

You can't get takeout sushi that is good in Boston?, anywhere. Full stop. If it's takeout, it's not sushi.

FTFY.

[farm3.staticflickr.com image 483x362]

HUH?

That proves what he said.

Sushi is just fish and rice.....that's it. I am positive I can find better sushi at the deli counter in the Lawson's in Akahibara  than most places on the mainland,

it's like saying there are no hot dogs unless you are eating one at 72nd and Broadway.


Congrats. You're half right.
 
2013-02-22 06:27:23 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: The one thing preppers and survivalist definitely have in common is that if the shiat really hits the fan, both of them are going to be doing exactly what the nice army reservists with the heavy weapons tell them to do.  Anybody who has survival fantasies where they are on their own for long periods, fighting for their lives, is delusional.


Oh, really? Does Katrina not ring a bell? Or Sandy?
Where were nice army reservists where my friends were getting shot at by looters as they were trying to give out supplies in LA? Or days and weeks after the Sandy, as people were still freezing and trying to warm themselves by boiling water repeatedly? Or even further back, the 1992 LA riots? I distinctly remember police officers standing by doing nothing as looters burned stores and robbed koreans down to bare floors - until they started shooting back from the rooftops.

I think those who are too lazy / cheap to prepare like to make themselves feel better by calling those who do "delusional" "insane" and "gun nuts".

If you don't want to own a gun, that's fine - your call. I know several people who would willingly let looters take their food rather than put up a fight, and I respect them. But to insist that it's crazy to stockpile food, water, and basic shelter/hygiene supplies - and then expect government or your neighbors to take care of you - that's head-in-the-sand selfishness.

And I won't even begin to get into how history repeats itself and how every government in the history of man has had at least one crushing, oppressive, extended era of tyranny where the powerful trod all over the throats of its people.
 
2013-02-22 06:28:54 PM

FreetardoRivera: When the shiat hits the fan I am going to eat the preppers and take all of their stuff.

SSSS



Sounds like a plan for taking on heavily armed citizens...
But if you're coming around these parts, mind you don't step on a foot breaker.
They've been popular with the pot growers, and I'd imagine their numbers will multiply.

/Truth be told I'd be more afraid of the preppers doing the hunting.
/many of them have poorly thought out plans, lots of weapons, and a drive to survive.
 
2013-02-22 06:29:40 PM

Oblio13: Our Attorney General wants the citizenry disarmed so badly that he smuggled weapons to Mexican drug cartels and tried to blame it on us. Our President is a former Constitutional law professor who is able to rationalize assassinating citizens abroad. Even small-town police departments are militarizing. Homeland Security just bought 1.6 BILLION rounds of ammunition. Emails and phone calls are being monitored. Warrantless searches are common. The legal mechanisms are in place for indefinite detentions without trials. Anticipating a ban, people are buying "assault weapons" as fast as they can be manufactured. They aren't buying them because they're going to turn them in. Part of me says, "It can't happen here". Another part of me says, "If I were seeing this in another country, I'd say both sides were preparing for civil war". I used to wonder if I was just being paranoid. Now I think that anyone who can't see a gathering storm is willfully blind. Being prepared can't hurt, and it's cheap insurance.


You are a wise man.  I have seen the same things, in much greater detail, for a much longer period of time.

Governments do not go quietly away when they are no longer needed, and if there is a bad financial crisis, they WILL find a way to feed themselves, no matter whose feet they step on.  Also, our government is like a big snake with the head cut off: the tail does not know it is dead yet, and keeps thrashing around.  If the economy goes to hell in a handbasket, they WILL take as much as they want, no matter how much you think you might need.  If that means your children starve, that is just plain tough.

You've also got somewhere north of 50 million parasites who cannot feed themselves even in good times; what will they do when things really get bad?
 
2013-02-22 06:30:04 PM

olddinosaur: Corpus Christi has been hit seven times by hurricanes between 1919 and 1980; and since that---nothing.  It has been 33 years and we are long overdue.


When The End Of The World As We Know It comes, I will establish dominion over all those who don't understand how probability (expected frequency of uncorrelated events) works.
 
2013-02-22 06:30:32 PM
I've always kept a couple of months of canned goods like vegges, canned ham, tuna, and the like. There is usually anywhere from five to fifteen 5 gallon water jugs for the cooler here, flashlights, portable radios(one crank). I don't even consider myself a prepper. I just hate going hungry during wicked weather, or stumbling to the shiatter in the dark during a prolonged power outage. Any canned stuff that gets within 6 months of expiry before I get to it gets donated to the food pantry.
 
2013-02-22 06:30:47 PM
Stupid thread is making me hungry.  Nice to see some of you know wtf sushi is.
 
2013-02-22 06:31:30 PM
It's always nice to find more candidates for the Somalia citizen exchange program.
 
2013-02-22 06:32:49 PM

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: what_now: What's the line between "Has a backpack with flashlight and medical supplies, and a weeks worth of canned goods in cupboard" and "collects bags of own poop "?

because there has to be a line, right?

It's the difference between preparing for a sudden, but manageable disaster (fire, tornado, flood, etc.) and preparing for the chaotic collapse of civilization.


I've never understood 'prepping'.  IF (and that's a big if) things went all zombie/EMPish, the only thing you'd need is a detailed knowledge of hand to hand combat, and how to kill a man in the most humane way possible.  And neighbors that have stocked up for themselves.  People think the "event" is the threat, but it's the immediate year following the event you should spend some time thinking about.  That's when the shiat gets real.

Think of it like this;  Grocery cart behavior vs driving behavior.  People don't cut you off and flip you off in the checkout line because they have to face you and it's shameful behavior.  On the road, however, we are animals.  Should an event happen, people will revert to that animal behavior during face to face confrontations.  There isn't enough campbell's soup in existence to help you 'prep' or 'survive' that element.  Hence the comment about hand-to-hand and humane killing methods.
 
Ehh
2013-02-22 06:32:51 PM
Came for a Venn diagram, leaving disappointed.

/The people on the preppers TV show are crazy.
 
2013-02-22 06:32:52 PM

Securitywyrm: Didn't the United States used to encourage the entire country to be 'preppers' back in the 50's cold war? So if you had a fallout shelter 60 years ago you were a 'well prepared person' and now it makes you a 'crazy paranoid'?


It's a matter of letters: Prep for the USSR, you are a patriot; prep for the USSA, you are a dangerous gun nut.
 
2013-02-22 06:33:35 PM
Meh, call it what you want... the reality for me is that living in the mountains means being ready for the possibility that (like a few years ago) we'll get 7 feet of snow in 2 days. That means ya, I can catch a rabbit, skin it, and cook it right... it also means that I have plenty of ramen, canned food, and fuel to cook it with, and in a pinch, I could certainly start a fire. The gun isn't so much about hunting for me as it is about the time a large bear jumped off the top of a big trash bin near where I live and scared the piss out of me, or about the numerous times bears have stalked me on the way home, or when I see mountain cats (they're worse than bears, if they decide that they want you, you're pretty well farked). I get that not everyone lives this way (I lived in NYC before here)... but being here, where it's quiet, where I can go find waterfalls in the summer that make my brain feel totally turned off, where I can be alone and not have to see anyone for a week if I so choose... that doesn't make me crazy.
 
2013-02-22 06:34:20 PM

Securitywyrm: You could also look at it like this: "Preppers" are often playing the disaster lottery. If they don't have the resources to get by in the current climate, they prepare for a different climate and hope they get 'lucky' with the climate change.


I'd be willing to believe they don't believe in climate change, that it's a liberal conspiracy.

They're definitely hiding because they think socialists like Obama (sic) are going to collapse the economy. Don't kid yourself.
 
2013-02-22 06:34:46 PM
Think that those folks that live in the northeast after Sandy could not have used a week or so worth of supplies? Maybe a generator and some gas?
How about those in Kentucky after 2009's ice storm?
Or the June 2012 derecho that hit the mideast and midwest?
 
2013-02-22 06:34:56 PM

jfarkinB: olddinosaur: Corpus Christi has been hit seven times by hurricanes between 1919 and 1980; and since that---nothing.  It has been 33 years and we are long overdue.

When The End Of The World As We Know It comes, I will establish dominion over all those who don't understand how probability (expected frequency of uncorrelated events) works.


I am well aware my mathematical model is pessimistic, but so is life insurance: I am not the slightest bit disappointed when I don't die but have to pay anyway.
 
2013-02-22 06:36:19 PM

duenor: Where were nice army reservists where my friends were getting shot at by looters as they were trying to give out supplies in LA?


Have you had your meds checked recently? You seem delusional and prone to make up fantasies and then believe they actually happened.
 
2013-02-22 06:36:29 PM

ZeroPly: a nice RV


Actually RVs can be useful for emergencies. An RV has water, sanitation, heating, cooling, a place to cook, and a place to sleep all wrapped up in a somewhat mobile package. Mine even has a ham radio. It's where you'll find me if my house collapses after the big one.
 
2013-02-22 06:36:31 PM

olddinosaur: Securitywyrm: Didn't the United States used to encourage the entire country to be 'preppers' back in the 50's cold war? So if you had a fallout shelter 60 years ago you were a 'well prepared person' and now it makes you a 'crazy paranoid'?

It's a matter of letters: Prep for the USSR, you are a patriot; prep for the USSA, you are a dangerous gun nut.


Oh, so very well said. It's no coincidence at all that all the major anti-gun legislation started coming out right after the end of the cold war. Even the machine-gun ban didn't go into place until 1986.
 
2013-02-22 06:36:38 PM

olddinosaur: You've also got somewhere north of 50 million parasites who cannot feed themselves even in good times


Nice way to characterize retirees and veterans. You'll be offing yourself when you hit Social Security age, then, right?
 
2013-02-22 06:37:06 PM

Rev.K: what_now: What's the line between "Has a backpack with flashlight and medical supplies, and a weeks worth of canned goods in cupboard" and "collects bags of own poop "?

because there has to be a line, right?

The line is right at the point of poop bagging. Maybe a bit before that, but definitely in that neighborhood.


You'll konw it only when you've crossed it.
 
2013-02-22 06:37:13 PM

firefly212: Meh, call it what you want... the reality for me is that living in the mountains means being ready for the possibility that (like a few years ago) we'll get 7 feet of snow in 2 days. That means ya, I can catch a rabbit, skin it, and cook it right... it also means that I have plenty of ramen, canned food, and fuel to cook it with, and in a pinch, I could certainly start a fire. The gun isn't so much about hunting for me as it is about the time a large bear jumped off the top of a big trash bin near where I live and scared the piss out of me, or about the numerous times bears have stalked me on the way home, or when I see mountain cats (they're worse than bears, if they decide that they want you, you're pretty well farked). I get that not everyone lives this way (I lived in NYC before here)... but being here, where it's quiet, where I can go find waterfalls in the summer that make my brain feel totally turned off, where I can be alone and not have to see anyone for a week if I so choose... that doesn't make me crazy.


Dad?  Is that you?  I thought you were just going to get some cigarettes?  It's been like, 5 years :(
 
2013-02-22 06:38:01 PM
so one group is gay
and the other group is gay with guns
 
2013-02-22 06:38:07 PM

olddinosaur: I am well aware my mathematical model is pessimistic, but so is life insurance: I am not the slightest bit disappointed when I don't die but have to pay anyway.


I... actually can't argue with this at all.
 
2013-02-22 06:38:10 PM

what_now: What's the line between "Has a backpack with flashlight and medical supplies, and a weeks worth of canned goods in cupboard" and "collects bags of own poop "?

because there has to be a line, right?


The one I saw last week (because I was too lazy to get up and change the channel) had a girl who had come to NYC from New Orleans after Katrina. Her "prep" was to be prepared to evacuate across the bridges with all her gear on foot in case another hurricane hit. She carried on a daily basis a rucksack with AT LEAST 100 lbs of survival gear to and from work--food, extra clothes, first-aid equipment, radio, etc. etc.--on a bike. What she had not done was check to see if she could get out of the city on foot in the hour window she'd given herself to escape before the rising water closed the bridges. Guess what: She couldn't.

So there's your line right there.
 
2013-02-22 06:39:30 PM
the-simpsons.maxupdates.tv
Simpsons did it!  (Obligatory)
 
2013-02-22 06:39:49 PM
Have you ever noticed that on the Doomsday Preppers TV show, that almost every prepper uses the phrase "when the shiat hits the fan?"  It's like a universal saying for them.  Are they all reading the same website?

/not a prepper, but a country person.  We do a lot of canning and drying, have a 50 lb bag of potatoes in storage for the winter, and a freezer full of meat.  We don't store water, but live close enough to a river to get buckets of water and walk home with them.  We could live comfortable for a while if we had a collapse, but we're not living like that's actually going to happen.
 
2013-02-22 06:39:53 PM

jfarkinB: olddinosaur: You've also got somewhere north of 50 million parasites who cannot feed themselves even in good times

Nice way to characterize retirees and veterans. You'll be offing yourself when you hit Social Security age, then, right?


I think he's talking about Sharmika and her seven little piggies by different breeders.
 
2013-02-22 06:41:43 PM

HairBolus: duenor: Where were nice army reservists where my friends were getting shot at by looters as they were trying to give out supplies in LA?

Have you had your meds checked recently? You seem delusional and prone to make up fantasies and then believe they actually happened.


Ad Hominem, I see.

I can't validate my friends' stories because they were never covered by the media. But how about wikipedia?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_Hurricane_Katrina_in_New_Orle a ns 

Incapacitated by the breakdown of transportation and communication, as well as overwhelmed numerically, police officers could do little to stop crime, and shopkeepers who remained behind were left to defend their property alone.[43] Looters included gangs of gunmen,[44] and gunfire was heard in parts of the city. Along with violent, armed robbery of non-essential valuable goods,[45] many incidents were of residents simply taking food, water, and other commodities from unstaffed grocery stores.[45] There were also reports of some police officers looting.[44] Significant looting continued in areas of the city with few, if any permanent residents, such as the Lakeview, Gentilly, and the Midcity regions.[46]


"Sniper fire" was also reported throughout the city, targeted at rescue helicopters, relief workers, and police officers
 
2013-02-22 06:42:13 PM
One thing people tend to forget about preparing for a disaster is hygiene/santitation. You can have all the food water and first aid you want but if you can't maintain a decent level of sanitization and cleanliness one infection can do you in. those of you that have emergency kits put together should connsider what you have in that department. MY experience is that is the most over looked.
 
2013-02-22 06:42:15 PM

Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: Live on your own how and where?  Most people live in fairly urban environments, the military will round people up to control them more easily if martial law is declared.


Really?  Where is your source for that besides a hypothetical pulled from your arse?  And how does this protect the folks that don't live in these urban areas?
 
2013-02-22 06:42:47 PM
Its not preppers its preppies
 
2013-02-22 06:42:54 PM

jfarkinB: olddinosaur: You've also got somewhere north of 50 million parasites who cannot feed themselves even in good times

Nice way to characterize retirees and veterans. You'll be offing yourself when you hit Social Security age, then, right?


Actually retirees and veterans are better prepared than average folk.  I was talking about unwed mothers with 1--6 children, no savings, no plan B when plan A collapses, able--bodied "men" who are not crippled or retarded but can't find work, 40--year--old "boys" who live with their parents and play video games all day, and in general anyone who is dumb enough to think that the system will still be there to provide for him when the shirt hits the fan.

Ask the Katrina/Sandy survivors how they liked being dependent on others.
 
2013-02-22 06:43:27 PM

Saracuda: almost every prepper uses the phrase "when the shiat hits the fan?" It's like a universal saying for them. Are they all reading the same website?


It's a saying your grandfather might have been acquainted with,  which says a lot about the demographic.

I'm reminded of that scene in Independence Day when all the RVs show up at Roswell.
 
2013-02-22 06:43:35 PM
sigh, so because they keep 6 months worth of food and water in barrels in my garage and have disposable hazmat suits they are sane.

but I keep a couple rifles and a hand gun just in case of civil disorder brought on by either natural or manmade disaster I'm a psycho....

let me know how things work out when your neighbors find out that you have a bunch of food and water and nothing to defend it. Sure, as long as the machines are working and you can dial 911 it'll be fine. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, you scare the shiat out of them - no more rules
 
2013-02-22 06:43:59 PM

Saracuda: Have you ever noticed that on the Doomsday Preppers TV show, that almost every prepper uses the phrase "when the shiat hits the fan?"  It's like a universal saying for them.  Are they all reading the same website?

/not a prepper, but a country person.  We do a lot of canning and drying, have a 50 lb bag of potatoes in storage for the winter, and a freezer full of meat.  We don't store water, but live close enough to a river to get buckets of water and walk home with them.  We could live comfortable for a while if we had a collapse, but we're not living like that's actually going to happen.


That's because you don't have to. Water for most city folk (in the absences of municipal pressure) is not within walking distance. Swimming pools do not count.
 
2013-02-22 06:44:11 PM

Saracuda: Have you ever noticed that on the Doomsday Preppers TV show, that almost every prepper uses the phrase "when the shiat hits the fan?" It's like a universal saying for them.  Are they all reading the same website?



That saying has been around for a long time.  Probably common in the military
 
2013-02-22 06:45:19 PM

titwrench: One thing people tend to forget about preparing for a disaster is hygiene/santitation. You can have all the food water and first aid you want but if you can't maintain a decent level of sanitization and cleanliness one infection can do you in. those of you that have emergency kits put together should connsider what you have in that department. MY experience is that is the most over looked.


Oh, we bring hand sanitizer whenever we go to Disneyland.
 
2013-02-22 06:45:34 PM
Since the earthquake in Christchurch here in NZ two years ago, I've made sure to have a few days surplus of bottled water and food available in my pantry, I also have a spade to dig a latrine in the backyard and a tarp to hang up for privacy. I've also got my important documents - insurance, passport and $100 cash in one place and I have purchased a combination wind-up radio/cellphone charger/lantern. I figure that will be enough to get me through until relief arrives in the event of a disaster.

The impression I get is that a lot of preppers actually seem to be rooting for some kind of disaster to happen so they can act out some post-social-collapse fantasy. There's a difference between making a risk assessment and hoping for that kind of massive change in the way people live their lives.
 
2013-02-22 06:47:29 PM

spiderpaz: I live in suburbia, so there's only so much I can prepare for.  I've got the supplies I would need to filter the water in my hot tub.  I've got a vegetable garden (mostly because I like fresh veggies).  I've got 2 months worth of freeze dried food (definitely my most "prepper" like asset) for me, my wife, and our baby boy.

I figure the most insane natural disaster I can be prepared for is at most 2 months (like an earthquake breaking every water line in town, and a flood wiping out the roads.  Anything more serious than that, and you are kidding yourself if you think you're going to be okeedokie and self sufficient.  If something crazy like that were to happen I'd just move back to my Dad's ranch where I was living before I moved into town.  Being a farmer is really the only realistic way to survive something that serious.

That being said, it seems like the people really enthused about preparing for the end are the ones that are not prepared for the present - i.e. impoverished rednecks who are economic failures.  It's like they lost at life, so they make themselves feel better by convincing themselves they're going to be on top when society breaks down.


Do you mind if i quote that last paragraph EVERWHERE? Because it is the most accurate description i have ever heard of some folks I know.
 
2013-02-22 06:48:16 PM

Soup4Bonnie: titwrench: One thing people tend to forget about preparing for a disaster is hygiene/santitation. You can have all the food water and first aid you want but if you can't maintain a decent level of sanitization and cleanliness one infection can do you in. those of you that have emergency kits put together should connsider what you have in that department. MY experience is that is the most over looked.

Oh, we bring hand sanitizer whenever we go to Disneyland.


I know you are joking but some people actually think a little purell is good enough.
 
2013-02-22 06:50:21 PM

firefly212: , or when I see mountain cats (they're worse than bears, if they decide that they want you, you're pretty well farked).


This is why you make friends with 6 foot long kitty. Imagine having mountain lions who like and are loyal to you.

\Or not.
 
2013-02-22 06:50:56 PM

titwrench: I know you are joking but some people actually think a little purell is good enough.


Not when you've got 6 day park hopper passes.  You'd run out by Frontierland.  Talk about your disaster scenarios!
 
2013-02-22 06:51:50 PM
Wouldn't you like to be a Prepper, too?
 
2013-02-22 06:51:59 PM
20 years ago: Citizens, be sure to have some food and water saved in case of emergency.

Now: Attention citizens. Do not prepare for emergencies. I repeat: Do not prepare for emergencies.
 
2013-02-22 06:52:16 PM

thisispete: Since the earthquake in Christchurch here in NZ two years ago, I've made sure to have a few days surplus of bottled water and food available in my pantry, I also have a spade to dig a latrine in the backyard and a tarp to hang up for privacy. I've also got my important documents - insurance, passport and $100 cash in one place and I have purchased a combination wind-up radio/cellphone charger/lantern. I figure that will be enough to get me through until relief arrives in the event of a disaster.


I'd get a gun to go with it - a nice 9mm and a belt holster, or small carbine that you can sling across your back. In the 1994 northridge earthquake,people found those to be much more useful than any big rifle. they had to work with both hands, sometimes with heavy equipment like chainsaws, and it was nice to not have to worry about looters. an earthquake (big one) can leave you without any kind of protecting structure, so security becomes a very real issue at that point.

again, I respect those who eschew firearms, but I do suggest them as a good addition to your general preparedness.

of greater importance, of course, is knowledge, general health, and a plan.
 
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