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(io9)   Today marks the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the greatest science fiction program ever to grace the American airwaves   (io9.com) divider line 100
    More: Spiffy, J. Michael Straczynski, police drama, Bruce Boxleitner, Melissa Gilbert, story lines, NYPD Blue, Hill Street Blues, sci-fi  
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12539 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 22 Feb 2013 at 9:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


Archived thread
2013-02-22 10:54:04 AM
6 votes:

KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.


Typical methodology to watch Babylon 5:

- Slog through Season 1. Duration: Months.
- Watch Season 2. Duration: A few weeks.
- Watch Season 3. Duration: 18 hours.
Note -- may be longer if you borrowed the set and the person doesn't answer the door at 3 AM in the morning.
- Watch Season 4. Duration: 18 hours.Take a day to recoup.
- Watch the original TNT movies. Duration: a day.
- Watch Season 5. Duration: a few days. May skip over the Telepath Arc. Be sure to buy Kleenex in bulk.
- Rewatch Season 1 to pick out the foreshadowing.

/
2013-02-22 12:17:23 PM
5 votes:
Was hoping this would be B% when I saw the link, leaving satisfied, except tp amplify this line from TFA:
"and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski also changed the rules for TV creators by actively engaging his fanbase online during the show's production. "

CSB:
I was On a FIDONET B-5 discussion forum (wasn't even linked to the USenet at the time IIRC) and bunch of us DC area fans decided to do an episode watching party at this one guy's houe who had a 100in projection screen and surround sound in his basement (remember the Dot-Com era was just dawning and geeks were suddenly finding themselves RICH)  al totalled there ware about 50 or so attendees.  Somehow JMS got wind of the gathering and offered to call us after the show to discuss it with us (IIRC it was the episode where the white star fought the shadow ship in earth's solar system).  I think we were all expecting a five min call where he said a few words and got back to his busy life.  what we got was more than an hour of in-depth Q&A where he engaged us in serious philosphical discussion about the nature of good and evil , told anecdotes about the day's filming (which had just wrapped) and funny stories about the cast.

As a geek I was blown away (it was just below the time I ended up chatting with Issac Asimov at a con for 20 minutes) and I think it was that direct fan engagement by JMS that helped make B5 some of the most fanatically loyal in all of SF-we really felt the show was an ongoing dialogue with us and for the first time it was a two-way conversation
2013-02-22 10:44:35 AM
5 votes:
i.imgur.com

Now hang your head in shame and slowly walk away subby.
2013-02-22 08:42:18 AM
4 votes:
Oh HELL no

DS9 was greater than all other Treks plus Babylon 5 combined.
2013-02-22 01:49:05 PM
3 votes:
You know as good as  BSG was for the most part, why can't they reboot Star Blazers?  That'd be a fun series.
2013-02-22 11:27:06 AM
3 votes:
earthprime.com

Wasn't so bad. There. I said it. At least for the first 2 seasons. Everything after Arturo being killed sucks.
2013-02-22 11:07:10 AM
3 votes:
upload.wikimedia.org
2013-02-22 10:35:31 AM
3 votes:
Babylon 5 had its flaws, but it fundamently changed TV sci-fi for the better. It made complicated, long term plots the norm for the genre.
2013-02-22 09:58:51 AM
3 votes:
I'll back  you a long way on B5 - it was a really good show. I think DS9 just edges it out though.

Besides, everybody knows what the best scifi show of all time is:

i192.photobucket.com
2013-02-22 09:57:13 AM
3 votes:
You're about a month late for the 20th anniversary of Deep Space Nine, subby.
2013-02-22 09:48:36 AM
3 votes:
Farscape is 20 years old? Who knew...
2013-02-22 09:20:27 AM
3 votes:
Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's children. Therefore B5 is retroactively not great.
2013-02-22 08:55:12 AM
3 votes:
The avalanche has already started; it is too late for the pebbles to vote.
2013-02-23 08:31:21 PM
2 votes:
Over 350 comments and you guys still don't get it right:

www.town.ural.ru
2013-02-22 06:49:46 PM
2 votes:

tillerman35: My vote goes to Space: 1999, with a nod to the Original Battlestar Gallactica (or more correctly stated, the ONLY Battlestar Gallactica).

/Off my lawn, you blasted kids!


No love for

i49.tinypic.com

digilander.libero.it

Always think of 1999 and UFO together for some reason.
2013-02-22 04:04:35 PM
2 votes:

KingKauff: ristst: I'm a big fan of B5...not so much in terms of JMS.  He's shown himself to be somewhat the douche on occasion...his handling of the Claudia Christian affair is another example besides the one mentioned above.

Refresh my memory, please. What happened?



It was during the time when the series was not guaranteed to return for the 5th season.  Contracts were late, and she lined up other gigs (as actors are wont to do).  I'm sure both sides were involved, but if you look at how many episodes Tracey Scoggins was in it sure seems like more of JMS' "my way or the highway" attitude.  And if you read CC's account of JMS trying to put the moves on her, well that sure could've had something to do with the situation.

From an interview with CC, http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art28651.asp

Christian left her regular role on "B5" just before the fifth and final season, after a contract dispute with the show's creator, J. Michael Stracynski. The actress says she wanted less of a presence in the final season so she could work on other projects, but Stracynski insisted she appear in all 22 episodes. At the time, she didn't have a contract and was let go. However, since the series finale was filmed at the end of the fourth season (producers thought the show would be canceled), Christian's character does make a return at the end. Ironically, Christian noted, her replacement (actress Tracy Scoggins) appeared on only eight episodes that season.
2013-02-22 02:55:23 PM
2 votes:

KatjaMouse: radinator: KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.

Really, the first season sets up the characters and their back-stories, and established the way the universe was (assassination of the president and the like).  This is merely set-up for the main story.  Consider it the intro and opening chapters.  Season 2 is where it starts to get interesting, when things start to happen.

That is perhaps one of the worst defenses I've ever heard. I can nod along and agree with people saying that it got better in the second season but that is no excuse for just how boring, cliche and stupid the first season was. Basically the over arching role of a complete season is to compel me not only to tune in but to like the characters enough to tune in week after week. I didn't like anyone at all and the story was doing nothing to compel me to invest any more time.

I think I even pulled an ocular muscle rolling my eyes during one of the "message" episodes.


Cynicism pervades our society now more then ever. Patience is a victim of this trend: This is why many people cannot sit through a symphony or opera anymore, read through a epic novel, or work on long term projects or goals that may or may not pay off in the end.

Not to say that you are any of this, but I would urge you to approach the show (and the first season) with more innocence and patience. Instead of rolling your eyes, take it as it is and see how these messages are learned or forgotten as the series goes forward. And for that matter, approach things with less cynicism, you might find you enjoy things more overall.
2013-02-22 02:23:47 PM
2 votes:
Barely off-topic, but can we agree that a sci-fi buddy cop show starring Keith David and Avery Brooks as themselves would be the greatest program ever made?

/I really want to know where Brooks buys his pot. If you've seen him talk, you know he has the farking HOOKUP.
2013-02-22 02:21:56 PM
2 votes:

madgonad: Stile4aly: B5 has a higher hit to miss ratio than most other Science Fiction, especially when taken in the context of its time.  And I would disagree with the notion "Seasons 1 and 5 suck."  They are less successful than seasons 2 - 4, but there are fantastic episodes in those seasons and they shouldn't just be written off.  Even the so-called garbage episodes have redeeming elements.  TKO, considered one of the worst episodes in the series, has a beautiful B story about Ivanova sitting shiva for her father.

Season one gets a bad rap because it spends so much time introducing the galaxy as it is, developing a rather large cast, and setting up most of the events that happen in the following seasons. An episode like Infection or Mind War introduces ideas that aren't dealt with for the rest of the season, but then it becomes important later in the series. Other stand-alones, like Believers, are often overlooked.

Season five was post-arc due to the compression JMS had in rushing to an end for season 4, but was granted the fifth season anyway. The telepath arc in S5 was a little rough at times, but good. Two stand-alones - Day of the Dead and View from the Gallery were really good. And it kind of sucked to lose Ivanova.

But seriously, no show has done physics and science as well as B5. From red/blue shifts when jumping, use of beam/projectile weapons in combat, and using real physics in flight and on the station. Even little things like the in-station fighting in Severed Dreams. Garibaldi in security wants to use a choke point to contain a boarding enemy, but the Narn's choose to take more severe losses to break the invader's position and stop them immediately. DS9 handled a similar situation by having Federation troops fighting Klingons with Batliths - which was plain old stupid. B5 just felt like something that could happen while ST remains space fantasy.

Oh, and never forget that B5 never glossed over the human losses in war.


Babylon 5 was great (well, one of the reasons) for the same reason DS9 became great: it ignored the shackles of futuristic perfection that Roddenberry bogged down all of Star Trek with. JMS was downright subversive with how muich he went against Roddenberry's ideal vision of the future which is one of the reasons the first two seasons of TNG sucked so hard.

Kids on starships and space stations? Kid's gonna die. Humanity's perfect? Humanity's corrupt as shiat. No religion? Lots of religions, including new ones made up because we came to space. Harlan Ellison's bitterness shown through and made everything interesting instead of the usual anomaly-of-the-week check-out-how-awesome-humans-are bullshiat.

It's the same reason "In the Pale Moonlight" is one of the five greatest episodes in all of Star Trek,

JMS and Harlan Ellison get a lifetime bullshiat pass from me because of Babylon 5, though JMS really, really shouldn't be allowed near comic books.
2013-02-22 01:26:32 PM
2 votes:

Stile4aly: B5 has a higher hit to miss ratio than most other Science Fiction, especially when taken in the context of its time.  And I would disagree with the notion "Seasons 1 and 5 suck."  They are less successful than seasons 2 - 4, but there are fantastic episodes in those seasons and they shouldn't just be written off.  Even the so-called garbage episodes have redeeming elements.  TKO, considered one of the worst episodes in the series, has a beautiful B story about Ivanova sitting shiva for her father.


Season one gets a bad rap because it spends so much time introducing the galaxy as it is, developing a rather large cast, and setting up most of the events that happen in the following seasons. An episode like Infection or Mind War introduces ideas that aren't dealt with for the rest of the season, but then it becomes important later in the series. Other stand-alones, like Believers, are often overlooked.

Season five was post-arc due to the compression JMS had in rushing to an end for season 4, but was granted the fifth season anyway. The telepath arc in S5 was a little rough at times, but good. Two stand-alones - Day of the Dead and View from the Gallery were really good. And it kind of sucked to lose Ivanova.

But seriously, no show has done physics and science as well as B5. From red/blue shifts when jumping, use of beam/projectile weapons in combat, and using real physics in flight and on the station. Even little things like the in-station fighting in Severed Dreams. Garibaldi in security wants to use a choke point to contain a boarding enemy, but the Narn's choose to take more severe losses to break the invader's position and stop them immediately. DS9 handled a similar situation by having Federation troops fighting Klingons with Batliths - which was plain old stupid. B5 just felt like something that could happen while ST remains space fantasy.

Oh, and never forget that B5 never glossed over the human losses in war.
2013-02-22 01:18:43 PM
2 votes:
25.media.tumblr.comI
t's been 20 years, eh?
2013-02-22 12:20:46 PM
2 votes:

Magorn: Was hoping this would be B% when I saw the link, leaving satisfied, except tp amplify this line from TFA:
"and Babylon 5 creator J. Michael Straczynski also changed the rules for TV creators by actively engaging his fanbase online during the show's production. "

CSB:
I was On a FIDONET B-5 discussion forum (wasn't even linked to the USenet at the time IIRC) and bunch of us DC area fans decided to do an episode watching party at this one guy's houe who had a 100in projection screen and surround sound in his basement (remember the Dot-Com era was just dawning and geeks were suddenly finding themselves RICH)  al totalled there ware about 50 or so attendees.  Somehow JMS got wind of the gathering and offered to call us after the show to discuss it with us (IIRC it was the episode where the white star fought the shadow ship in earth's solar system).  I think we were all expecting a five min call where he said a few words and got back to his busy life.  what we got was more than an hour of in-depth Q&A where he engaged us in serious philosphical discussion about the nature of good and evil , told anecdotes about the day's filming (which had just wrapped) and funny stories about the cast.

As a geek I was blown away (it was just below the time I ended up chatting with Issac Asimov at a con for 20 minutes) and I think it was that direct fan engagement by JMS that helped make B5 some of the most fanatically loyal in all of SF-we really felt the show was an ongoing dialogue with us and for the first time it was a two-way conversation


That is one of the best CSB's I ever read
2013-02-22 11:37:08 AM
2 votes:
Alphax: Teufelaffe: Alphax: supposedly one story got pushed back 2 seasons because someone mentioned something just like it.

People in the entertainment industry who do shiat like that need a nice hard punch in the baby-maker.  Leaked story info is supposedly why Mass Effect 3 ended up getting a terrible, shiatty ending instead of their originally planned ending that did not involve a glowy space kid and some Monty Hall pick-a-door-for-your-ending crap.

I think this was a case of 'oh crap, he mentioned a story idea that we were already working on.. now we have to track down this stranger on the Internet and get him to sign legal documents that he's NOT the one that gave us this idea!'

This story doesn't pass the stink test.  If they had a script that they were working on when someone on the internet posted an idea then they have 0 worries.  It is very VERY hard to prove that someone stole your idea.


It is true - the episode is called "Passing through Gethsemane". JMS talks about it here (scroll to the bottom): http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/countries/us/guide/048.html

The episode in question dealt with a murderer who'd been caught, tried, convicted and mindwiped so he had no idea of the crimes he committed and consigned to a life of service. One of the victim's family members tracks him down since he thought the murderer got off easy.

What JMS wrote in the above link was: "On another service, someone without considering what he was saying (not his fault, it just happened) said, in essence, "What if somebody on B5 found out that he had been mind-wiped, and used to be something awful previously?" Well, I'd had "Passing Through Gethsemane" on the wire at that time, but when I saw this, I had to scuttle the story. It lay there, untouched, for over a year, until I could finally meet the fellow and get a signed release indicating what'd happened. If that fan had not been fair and reasonable, that episode -- which many consider one of our best -- would never have been made.".
2013-02-22 11:25:42 AM
2 votes:

soopey: Farscape is 20 years old? Who knew...


Cannot be repeated enough.
2013-02-22 10:54:44 AM
2 votes:
www.oocities.org

woot!
2013-02-22 10:35:52 AM
2 votes:
Hard to claim with a straight face that DS9 wasn't a copy of B5 when you even had characters with the same names showing up on DS9.  Duhkat was Delenn's mentor and leader of the Minbari.  Gul Dukat was a leader of the Cardassians.  For just one example.
2013-02-22 10:26:01 AM
2 votes:

Alphax: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Sorry, but The Incredible Hulk used the "simple concepts of story arcs and character development" and pre-dates B5 by 15+ years.

Uh, I watched that show as a kid.. I remember no story arcs, nothing carrying over from one episode to another.


Disagrees:
tvmedia.ign.com
2013-02-22 10:18:27 AM
2 votes:

clkeagle: B5 is what brought the simple concepts of story arcs and character development to genre television.


Sorry, but The Incredible Hulk used the "simple concepts of story arcs and character development" and pre-dates B5 by 15+ years.  And that's just American TV.  I'd be willing to bet that the Brits have something even older that uses story arcs and character development.

/I love the B5 fans who try to make it out to be some innovative show that broke new ground...it was a farking re-write of the Lord of the Rings, ffs.
2013-02-22 10:15:03 AM
2 votes:
1.bp.blogspot.com
2013-02-22 10:14:14 AM
2 votes:

KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.


It got better after replacing Cardboard Cutout Man with Tron.
2013-02-22 10:00:28 AM
2 votes:
Reading this thread, I feel like I'm being nibbled to death by ducks.
2013-02-22 09:59:05 AM
2 votes:

cman: Oh HELL no

DS9 was greater than all other Treks plus Babylon 5 combined.


Even if you prefer DS9, it wouldn't have been what it was without Babylon 5.

Before B5 caught on, DS9 was going to follow the same "standalone episode followed by reset button" formula as TNG. B5 is what brought the simple concepts of story arcs and character development to genre television.

JammerJim: I liked B5, but the acting was really uneven, and JMS couldn't write ordinary human dialogue to save his life.


Next time you watch it, think of it as Londo and G'Kar's story, which happens to include ancillary characters and events. You'll be bothered far less by the weaker actors (especially Patricia Tallman, Jeff Conaway, and that horrible Byron guy) if you watch it with that mindset.
2013-02-22 09:55:18 AM
2 votes:
Quark debuted over 35 years ago.

i.imgur.com
2013-02-22 09:47:24 AM
2 votes:
Funny, Deep Space Nine premiered in January of 1993.
2013-02-22 09:46:46 AM
2 votes:
1.bp.blogspot.com

Beedeebeedee!
2013-02-23 09:39:03 AM
1 votes:
Best bit of trivia for B5 was that for the first four seasons it was money from Channel 4 in the UK that kept it going and as a thanks from the mid point of season 2 onwards every com request was on channel 4.

/now you know you will see it every where
2013-02-23 12:33:59 AM
1 votes:

yves0010: madgonad: Zombie DJ: Teufelaffe: **SPOILER below**

Same as Babylon 5.

Yep.
TOS killed Kirk and Spock 1.0
TNG has only killed Tasha and Data
DS9 killed Jadzia (kinda) and Sisko (kinda)
Voyager killed Janeway 2.0

Actually, TNG killed the entire Enterprise crew several times in a few episodes involving time loops. As well as killing Picard's future self in one of those time loop episodes. "All Good Thing" as both the Past and the Future Enterprises blow up as well. And there have been whole planets killed off or mutated during Trek as well. Borg destroyed planets or assimilated them.


Blake's 7 killed everyone
2013-02-22 11:54:14 PM
1 votes:

tillerman35: Giving Flounder a major role and the involvement of Bruce Boxleightner pretty much killed it for me.  Also the weird transylvanian accents that those space-vampire looking dudes had were pretty annoying.  Cool graphics for its time, though.

My vote goes to Space: 1999, with a nod to the Original Battlestar Gallactica (or more correctly stated, the ONLY Battlestar Gallactica).

/Off my lawn, you blasted kids!


I grew up in the 70s and this was one of my favorite shows.  The episode with the derelict space station housing this hypnotizing monster  that would melt corpses scared the crap out of me.  Best disco theme song evar!
2013-02-22 11:52:50 PM
1 votes:

KingsleyZisou: OtherLittleGuy: Stile4aly: Well, that does it. Bought the complete series from WB. Good news is it's 75% off. Bad news is I have to tell the wife.

79%. With the movies and all 5 seasons, it's about $75. Not bad.

Do you have a link for that?  When I got the WB I see it as over $200.


Got to go to wbstore.com instead of warnerbros.com.

http://www.wbshop.com/search.do?query=babylon+5
2013-02-22 11:41:23 PM
1 votes:
www.deviantart.com
Why did you have to be so expensive to make
/hot
2013-02-22 11:30:30 PM
1 votes:

HempHead: How did we end up in this dumazz episode anyhow??


Shut your goddamned mouth.

/loving B5 doesn't mean I don't also love DS9
2013-02-22 11:05:34 PM
1 votes:

Omnivorous: War of the Worlds (1938).

Now get off Orson Welles' lawn.

/John Houseman produced that broadcast.


I liked the TV series.
www.topdvdhotdeal.net
Which came in two flavors thanks to gigantic reboot between seasons.
3.bp.blogspot.com
2013-02-22 07:20:31 PM
1 votes:

hogans: But you're right, the series is pretty consistently good after about the first half of season one.


Farscape hit its stride with the episodes "Nerve" and "The Hidden Memory" late in Season 1.  The show finally got a truly frightening antagonist and established what became the overall story-arc of the series.

Additionally, it had one of the greatest STFU moments in television history: "You know what I give you, Crais?  Your life.  I will make you watch your life."
2013-02-22 04:34:00 PM
1 votes:

Der Poopflinger: SWEET  one of those threads were we post obscure shiatty shows and claim they were the best!



Phoenix FTW!

1.bp.blogspot.com

/amidoinitright?
2013-02-22 03:17:07 PM
1 votes:

Bloody William: It won't happen (and Caprica utterly sucked balls in every way), but I'd love to see a Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood treatment of BSG. Take the great ideas from the first half of the show, run with them, then run in a different direction with a completely different climax and ending to make the entire thing more coherent.


It would not work because of why that happened with FMA. The point you are taling about is where they ran out of manga chapters when making the original series, and had to start making their own story line. Brotherhood simply had more manga chapters to work with an as such is allot closer to the origional story line.
2013-02-22 03:04:09 PM
1 votes:

KingKauff: clkeagle: Snapper Carr: // Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God
"Trust Ivanova. Trust yourself. Anyone else? Shoot 'em."

Though G'Kar usually had the best lines. Apart from the "satisfying thump" one...
G'Kar: "I'll try and stop by for the closing ceremonies."
Lennier: "What matters is everything leading up to that point. Leaving behind the old, preparing to be reborn."
G'Kar: "I have already been born once, and quite sufficiently, I think."

The episode where G'Kar and Londo are trapped in the elevator was great. Especially, while laughing, G'Kar tells Londo that he is getting great joy watching him die (or something like that). I also liked how they always bickered like an old married couple


I'd say that comparison about nails it, and gets increasingly fitting the further into the series they go.  By midway through season 4, they've fully gone from genuinely hating each other to being very much an old married couple.  Though the behavior itself doesn't change, the underlying feeling to it really does shift, a change that's apparent to the viewer.  Great character development.
2013-02-22 03:01:55 PM
1 votes:

madgonad: B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,


General Hague doesn't exactly count here.  JMS - in another of his vindictive tirades - got mad at Robert Foxworth for taking a guest role on DS9, and he "killed the character".  And if you check his IMDB credit, you'll see RF was averaging about 3 guest spots a year during that time....so it's fair to say he wasn't working on a mass quantity of shows.  Actors need to work.  It may have made a little more sense if RF was a regular on the series, but he was only in couple episodes.  But I loved Bruce McGill as his replacement.  D-Day *rules*....

I'm a big fan of B5...not so much in terms of JMS.  He's shown himself to be somewhat the douche on occasion...his handling of the Claudia Christian affair is another example besides the one mentioned above.

And now, I'm gonna troll...but I'm gonna be honest.

I do not care for Sleeping in Light at all, I thought it was overly melodramatic, over-hyped, and nothing epic really happened.  I was expecting Sheridan to morph into a Vorlon or something.  And my wife *hated* it.  She claimed "they're trying to make everyone cry".

I know a lotta people love it as the greatest thing since toilet paper.  I don't.  Sue me.
2013-02-22 02:51:10 PM
1 votes:

Saiga410: KingKauff: "You are The One that was. You are The One that is. You are The One that will be"

Zathras was the only character that I dispised.  I dont know what it was about him.


Could it be because Zathras is used to being beast of burden to other people's needs. Very sad life. Probably have... very sad death. But... at least there is Symmetry.
2013-02-22 02:50:26 PM
1 votes:

Evil Mackerel: madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,

Entire races were wiped out on B5.


and I didn't get until later what genius that really was.  I'm not ashamed to say that when I first say the pilot I was completely turned off- I thought was a cheap ST knock-off with the Narns being the Klingons, the Centauri were obviously the comic-relief like the Ferengi, and the Mimbari were obviously vulcans.  As such I missed a lot of the shows until the episode "Believers"  which took a standard TVtrope of the good doctor ignroing the wishes of the Christian Scientist-like aliens to save their kid-and ditched the happy ending for something MUCH darker.  I came away from that episode thinking..."hmmm at sci-fi show with some balls...interesting".  But After "Confessions and Lamnetations" I was well and truly hooked.  That episode is so uncompromisingly brutal, not only is the race wiped out on the station but EVERYWHERE, and in the closing moments of the episode, the reaction of the bar patron's to this unimaginable horror (making "dead Mark'hab" jokes) is so  tough and true to life I was in awe.

What I didn;t realize until later is that episode gave JMS the credibility necessary to make seasons 3 &4 the masterpieces they were.  He'd established that he wasn't the slightest bit afraid of letting bad things happen to good people, or to let big-time characters die.  So when the cast and crew were in peril, you DIDN'T have that comfortable reassurance in the back of your mind that everyone not wearing a red shirt was going to be just fine and comeback for next week's episode.
2013-02-22 02:48:53 PM
1 votes:

Bloody William: Barely off-topic, but can we agree that a sci-fi buddy cop show starring Keith David and Avery Brooks as themselves would be the greatest program ever made?


This needs to happen. In fact, can we just put Keith David in everything? I'd watch that.
2013-02-22 02:27:27 PM
1 votes:

madgonad: I agree. A lot of great stuff happened in new BSG, but they wrote themselves into a corner (because they didn't have a plan) and created the worst deliberate series endings ever.


It won't happen (and Caprica utterly sucked balls in every way), but I'd love to see a Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood treatment of BSG. Take the great ideas from the first half of the show, run with them, then run in a different direction with a completely different climax and ending to make the entire thing more coherent.
2013-02-22 02:16:00 PM
1 votes:
2013-02-22 02:15:06 PM
1 votes:

OtherLittleGuy: - Rewatch Season 1 to pick out the foreshadowing.


The very first pilot movie had awesome foreshadowing you'd only notice if you remembered a barely audible line.

When the assassin dressed as Sinclair in the chameleon mesh approaches Kossh, Kossh greets him by saying Entil'zha, or "One who creates the future." It was used to refer to the leaders of the Rangers during the Shadow War, but it really referred to Valen's title as the One. The name was thrown around when the Rangers were revealed, but unless you noticed Kossh saying it before he was shot in the pilot movie, you would have written it off as cryptic alien greeting.
2013-02-22 02:07:19 PM
1 votes:

madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,


I'm not trying to say they were equal, but more named characters died in DS9 than in the rest of the Star Trek series' combined.

**SPOILER below**
Hell, it's the only Star Trek TV series that ends with the captain dead.
2013-02-22 02:04:42 PM
1 votes:
One of my favorite lines, from one of my favorite episodes:

"And he made a very satisfying thump when he hit the floor."
2013-02-22 01:59:04 PM
1 votes:

Der Poopflinger: SWEET  one of those threads were we post obscure shiatty shows and claim they were the best!


m.cdn.blog.hu
2013-02-22 01:44:19 PM
1 votes:
Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

raptorsclaw.files.wordpress.com
2013-02-22 01:44:01 PM
1 votes:

Zombie DJ: True story time,

I'm working in our comic shop (about 4 months before Tron 2 comes out) and this guy comes over and says, "You don't have much in the way of babylon 5 stuff I see."
I knew before I even looked up that it was Bruce Boxleitner . He just has that great voice.
His wife was doing a play in town and he stopped by to look around. We talked for a good 15 minutes about the show and everything. Really nice guy.

Babylon 5 was the reason I didn't watch DS9. I couldn't get into a "jr. edition" of something. I knew no matter what happened, Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.
Also, the end, the last episode, with Claudia Christians voice over, showing Garibaldi as a family man....that left me in tears.


What an overweight comic book retailer and Bruce Boxleitner might look like.
i81.photobucket.com
2013-02-22 01:42:29 PM
1 votes:
Eh, B5 was ok, but maybe it's because I didn't watch it when it originally aired, but the effects were freaking horrid, bad enough to end up taking me out of the story.

My favorite has always been SG-1. It was a balanced show, it had it's dramatic moments and it's comedic moments, something most modern sci-fi shows are lacking. (Yes I know Lexx had both, but that shiat was so ridiculous it wasn't even funny)

Farscape follows right behind that, for much the same reasons. Good mix of serious and funny, and the characters had great chemistry. I wasn't a fan of some of the characters (I'm looking at you Sikozu, Chianna, and Stark) but they made it work. Sad that some of the characters were acted so poorly (Crais, numerous aliens) or written poorly (Zhan after she lost her faith).

Trek, all it's variations have their moments. Suffice it to say they remain one of the greats.

Firefly had it's potential, but it's gone now. Good stuff while it lasted.

BSG was great, but God as an active character never sat well with me.
2013-02-22 01:28:00 PM
1 votes:
True story time,

I'm working in our comic shop (about 4 months before Tron 2 comes out) and this guy comes over and says, "You don't have much in the way of babylon 5 stuff I see."
I knew before I even looked up that it was Bruce Boxleitner . He just has that great voice.
His wife was doing a play in town and he stopped by to look around. We talked for a good 15 minutes about the show and everything. Really nice guy.

Babylon 5 was the reason I didn't watch DS9. I couldn't get into a "jr. edition" of something. I knew no matter what happened, Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.
Also, the end, the last episode, with Claudia Christians voice over, showing Garibaldi as a family man....that left me in tears.
2013-02-22 01:02:55 PM
1 votes:

KingKauff: jonathan_L: OtherLittleGuy: Recommended for Season 1

- "The War Prayer", Danica McKellar and Londo's best quote about dancing
- "Believers", only shows like "Walking Dead" and "Breaking Bad" would 'go there'
- "Chrysalis", the season finale,

Can't miss 'Signs and Portents', our first indication that some serious shiat is up.

What do you want?


I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up at your lifeless eyes and wave like this.  Can you and your associates arrange this for me, Mr. Morden?
2013-02-22 12:59:24 PM
1 votes:
Awesome Troll Headline +10
2013-02-22 12:40:12 PM
1 votes:
Still wondering if they ever got home.
www.mediacollectibles.com
2013-02-22 12:35:30 PM
1 votes:

WorkingInParadise: 20 years? You kids get off my lawn! The greatest sci-fi program ever was...

[thewickedwriters.files.wordpress.com image 435x580]

Salvage 1, featuring Matlock... I mean, Andy Griffith!


Wow, that just sparked a memory I didn't know I had. I need to investigate that show further to see what in the world I was watching way back when.
2013-02-22 12:30:35 PM
1 votes:

Norfolking Chance: As i said on the DS9 thread at its best B5 is better than DS9 and at its worst B5 is worse than DS9.

Passing through gethsemane just pips far beyond the stars and and the rock cried out is just a bit better than in the pale moonlight.

Either way Mollari, Dukat, G'Kar and Garrick will live on much longer than Sheridan, Sisko, Kira and Ivanova.


DS9 fails in my mind because I couldn't stop laughing out loud during the Big Dramatic war scenes when spectacularly inept dialogue came from the mouths of the main characters because of writers who didn't give a second's thought to what actual space warfare might be like, or hell, even had a decent grasp of naval warfare.

Everytime I happen to see the episode with the big fleet battle where  Sisco goes on about breaking the enemy's LINES I die a little inside that sucha  great actor is being used so poorly.

JMS was MUCH better at that stuff, and "Severed Dreams" was an utterly amazing example of what the "war " season of DS9 SHOULD have been like with competent writers

and I will fight anyone who thinks that "confessions and lamentations" isn't some of the best farking writing in TV SF since Harlan Ellison's "City on the edge of Forever"
2013-02-22 12:14:14 PM
1 votes:
Futurama premiered in 1993?
2013-02-22 12:01:44 PM
1 votes:

vudukungfu: Firefly isn't that old

2013-02-22 11:51:57 AM
1 votes:

Richard Sauce: PIP_the_TROLL: I'll back  you a long way on B5 - it was a really good show. I think DS9 just edges it out though.

Besides, everybody knows what the best scifi show of all time is:

[i192.photobucket.com image 640x480]

I agree that DS9 is killer. I need to watch B5 now to confirm DS9's superiority.

I tried rrrrrreally hard to like Farscape but it was so hit/miss. Never established consistently quality episodes.


The first season is pretty rough, but once they introduce Scorpius and Harvey its all pretty great with a handful of exceptions.
2013-02-22 11:49:42 AM
1 votes:
20 years? You kids get off my lawn! The greatest sci-fi program ever was...

thewickedwriters.files.wordpress.com

Salvage 1, featuring Matlock... I mean, Andy Griffith!
2013-02-22 11:49:25 AM
1 votes:
magnus.vanosten.se
2013-02-22 11:47:38 AM
1 votes:

dittybopper: Tanukis_Parachute: Since Quark has been mentioned... I present to you this...

[www.vampirerave.com image 308x400]

Yet another so-bad-it's-good one.

Going back even further, I present you with this:

[api.ning.com image 424x260]


Let me also point out that I'd climb all over Fuji:

images1.wikia.nocookie.net

She's held up well.
2013-02-22 11:35:25 AM
1 votes:

KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.


My struggles with B5 are known on various threads over the past few weeks, but I've had the same experience.  I will continue saying the same thing: SF fans are so used to getting shiat on that they now expect it and then ask for more.  Even the most diehard B5 fans will say stuff like: "It was the greatest show ever.  I mean, season 1 and 5 sucked, but 2, 3, and 4 totally rocked!"  In other words, about 40% of the episodes are acknowledged by fans are being pretty crappy.  This somehow makes it a great show.

\heard the same argument for pretty much every other SF show
\\SFX reviewed the Blu-Ray for season 2 of Star Trek: TNG, and said that you should get it because it had three or four high quality episodes on there
\\\that's a hundred bucks or more for about three hours of quality SF
2013-02-22 11:35:15 AM
1 votes:

Tanukis_Parachute: Since Quark has been mentioned... I present to you this...

[www.vampirerave.com image 308x400]


Yet another so-bad-it's-good one.

Going back even further, I present you with this:

api.ning.com
2013-02-22 11:16:12 AM
1 votes:
Funny, Didn't think Space Above and Beyond was that old.
2013-02-22 11:16:09 AM
1 votes:
I defy anyone to name a sci-fi series finale that can top the finale of Babylon 5. "Sleeping in Light" is still one of the greatest final episodes of all time. Say what you will about the series, it knew how to end with a bang. Lost? Battlestar Galactica? They don't even come close, and I suppose B5 ruined me on final episodes because after that one, every one since has been found lacking.
2013-02-22 11:13:42 AM
1 votes:
Firefly isn't that old
2013-02-22 11:00:22 AM
1 votes:

Persnickety: Dynasty and Dallas did the same kinds of things way back when and before that there were soap operas


Dynasty and Dallas  were soap operas. They were attempts to move the format of the soap opera into prime time with prime time production values. All of the examples you list, however, don't map to B5 for one simple reason: B5 had a determined end-date.

American television, as a rule, produces episodes with one goal in mind: to sell enough ads to justify producing more episodes. Telling a compact story with a determined ending is not in the cards for pretty much any series, and that's true even today. For every B5 and "Breaking Bad", you have six meandering "Lost"s.

The key to being a sellable TV show, from a network perspective, is being  open ended, not closed. If a show takes off, the network wants to be able to keep that show on the air until public interest wanes. If they can keep an audience for ten seasons, then by god, they're going to keep that show running.
2013-02-22 10:59:22 AM
1 votes:

Persnickety: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: clkeagle: B5 is what brought the simple concepts of story arcs and character development to genre television.

Sorry, but The Incredible Hulk used the "simple concepts of story arcs and character development" and pre-dates B5 by 15+ years.  And that's just American TV.  I'd be willing to bet that the Brits have something even older that uses story arcs and character development.

Hell, Dynasty and Dallas did the same kinds of things way back when and before that there were soap operas and radio program serials and comic books that had long story arcs and character development.  It's not a new concept at all.


I don't think those count as "genre television".  But if we're going to just say all television, I Love Lucy had a pregnancy story arc, and that was 30 years before B5.
2013-02-22 10:54:48 AM
1 votes:

macadamnut: Teufelaffe: Alphax: Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: Sorry, but The Incredible Hulk used the "simple concepts of story arcs and character development" and pre-dates B5 by 15+ years.

Uh, I watched that show as a kid.. I remember no story arcs, nothing carrying over from one episode to another.

Disagrees:
[tvmedia.ign.com image 460x345]


That wasn't a story arc. Bruce comes to town, Hulk appears, Mr. McGee appears, Bruce moves on. It was the same thing every week.


If McGee stayed the same throughout the series, I'd agree.  But, his character definitely changed over the course of the show based on events from multiple episodes, thereby checking both the "story arc" and "character development" boxes.  Whether one likes B5 or not doesn't change the fact that it wasn't the first "genre TV" show to do those things.  Hell, Doctor Who pre-dates B5 by 20 years, and you'd have to be insane to try and claim that show didn't have story arcs.
2013-02-22 10:51:23 AM
1 votes:

Harbinger of the Doomed Rat: clkeagle: B5 is what brought the simple concepts of story arcs and character development to genre television.

Sorry, but The Incredible Hulk used the "simple concepts of story arcs and character development" and pre-dates B5 by 15+ years.  And that's just American TV.  I'd be willing to bet that the Brits have something even older that uses story arcs and character development.


Hell, Dynasty and Dallas did the same kinds of things way back when and before that there were soap operas and radio program serials and comic books that had long story arcs and character development.  It's not a new concept at all.
2013-02-22 10:47:09 AM
1 votes:
I've watched the entire series before, but it was on Netflix for about a month and I got to rewatch S1, then it got dropped and hasn't reappeared.
2013-02-22 10:34:27 AM
1 votes:

PIP_the_TROLL: I'll back  you a long way on B5 - it was a really good show. I think DS9 just edges it out though.

Besides, everybody knows what the best scifi show of all time is:

[i192.photobucket.com image 640x480]


soopey: Farscape is 20 years old? Who knew...


I see you guys have this covered...

/DS9>B5
2013-02-22 10:19:32 AM
1 votes:
tillerman35
Also the weird transylvanian accents that those space-vampire looking dudes had were pretty annoying.

MEEstah GariBALdi.

(Actually there was no standard Centari accent. Londo seemed to be only one... as far as I can remember... who had the Dracula-wannabe accent. Vir certainly didn't, and neither did the Mad Emperor or any of Londo's wives. Hang on, Lord Reefa had that accent. But aside from that. That's actually one of the things I liked; after all, it's not like there is a single Human accent.)
2013-02-22 10:18:17 AM
1 votes:
www.dvdizzy.com
2013-02-22 10:18:03 AM
1 votes:
As i said on the DS9 thread at its best B5 is better than DS9 and at its worst B5 is worse than DS9.

Passing through gethsemane just pips far beyond the stars and and the rock cried out is just a bit better than in the pale moonlight.

Either way Mollari, Dukat, G'Kar and Garrick will live on much longer than Sheridan, Sisko, Kira and Ivanova.
2013-02-22 10:15:35 AM
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's children. Therefore B5 is retroactively not great.


UGH!  Thanks for bringing up that monstrosity again.  JMS killed his rep with that moment.
2013-02-22 10:12:17 AM
1 votes:
I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.
2013-02-22 10:09:26 AM
1 votes:
1.bp.blogspot.comu1.ipernity.comwww.tcon.ca

Then again, how could you leave out the Amish is Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace?
2013-02-22 10:05:34 AM
1 votes:
I loved towards the end when G'Kar was a spiritual leader and he mentioned that Narn books are replicated and reprinted exactly the same as the original manuscript, which was why on page 348 there was a giant ring in the middle of the text where Mr Garibaldi had put his coffee mug down while proofreading it.
2013-02-22 10:03:02 AM
1 votes:

Mentat: Reading this thread, I feel like I'm being nibbled to death by ducks . CATS


At least, according to Earth culture enthusiast Vir Cotto..
2013-02-22 10:02:30 AM
1 votes:

Alphax: Teufelaffe: Alphax: supposedly one story got pushed back 2 seasons because someone mentioned something just like it.

People in the entertainment industry who do shiat like that need a nice hard punch in the baby-maker.  Leaked story info is supposedly why Mass Effect 3 ended up getting a terrible, shiatty ending instead of their originally planned ending that did not involve a glowy space kid and some Monty Hall pick-a-door-for-your-ending crap.

I think this was a case of 'oh crap, he mentioned a story idea that we were already working on.. now we have to track down this stranger on the Internet and get him to sign legal documents that he's NOT the one that gave us this idea!'


This story doesn't pass the stink test.  If they had a script that they were working on when someone on the internet posted an idea then they have 0 worries.  It is very VERY hard to prove that someone stole your idea.
2013-02-22 10:00:07 AM
1 votes:
www.70slivekidvid.com
2013-02-22 09:54:32 AM
1 votes:
L O S T started in 2004, silly submitter.
2013-02-22 09:52:49 AM
1 votes:
I thought Robotech came over in the 80s... Or Star Trek was from the 60s. Same with the original Doctor Who. How can these be 20 now when they are well over 20 years old.
2013-02-22 09:47:10 AM
1 votes:

Teufelaffe: Alphax: supposedly one story got pushed back 2 seasons because someone mentioned something just like it.

People in the entertainment industry who do shiat like that need a nice hard punch in the baby-maker.  Leaked story info is supposedly why Mass Effect 3 ended up getting a terrible, shiatty ending instead of their originally planned ending that did not involve a glowy space kid and some Monty Hall pick-a-door-for-your-ending crap.


I think this was a case of 'oh crap, he mentioned a story idea that we were already working on.. now we have to track down this stranger on the Internet and get him to sign legal documents that he's NOT the one that gave us this idea!'
2013-02-22 09:44:06 AM
1 votes:

Alphax: supposedly one story got pushed back 2 seasons because someone mentioned something just like it.


People in the entertainment industry who do shiat like that need a nice hard punch in the baby-maker.  Leaked story info is supposedly why Mass Effect 3 ended up getting a terrible, shiatty ending instead of their originally planned ending that did not involve a glowy space kid and some Monty Hall pick-a-door-for-your-ending crap.
2013-02-22 09:37:24 AM
1 votes:
Giving Flounder a major role and the involvement of Bruce Boxleightner pretty much killed it for me.  Also the weird transylvanian accents that those space-vampire looking dudes had were pretty annoying.  Cool graphics for its time, though.

My vote goes to Space: 1999, with a nod to the Original Battlestar Gallactica (or more correctly stated, the ONLY Battlestar Gallactica).

/Off my lawn, you blasted kids!
2013-02-22 09:34:56 AM
1 votes:
I remember reading rec.arts.sci-fi.television.babylon5 back in the day.  No one was allowed to post anything that might be considered a story idea, for legal reasons.. supposedly one story got pushed back 2 seasons because someone mentioned something just like it.
2013-02-22 09:32:47 AM
1 votes:

FirstNationalBastard: Gwen Stacy had Norman Osborne's children. Therefore B5 is retroactively not great.


Of all possible counter-arguments to subby's headline, this is by far the best. I bow in your general direction.
2013-02-22 09:28:12 AM
1 votes:
Never missed an episode.  Awesome.
 
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