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(io9)   Today marks the 20th anniversary of the beginning of the greatest science fiction program ever to grace the American airwaves   (io9.com) divider line 369
    More: Spiffy, J. Michael Straczynski, police drama, Bruce Boxleitner, Melissa Gilbert, story lines, NYPD Blue, Hill Street Blues, sci-fi  
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12542 clicks; posted to Entertainment » on 22 Feb 2013 at 9:28 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-22 01:49:47 PM  
Season 5 did have one thing going for it. The best title sequence on a TV show.
 
2013-02-22 01:50:19 PM  

Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.


Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,
 
2013-02-22 01:54:03 PM  

madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,


Entire races were wiped out on B5.
 
2013-02-22 01:54:17 PM  

flaminio: Hey guys, what's going on in this thread?

[raptorsclaw.files.wordpress.com image 500x585]


img685.imageshack.us

i.imgur.com

Just hangin' out
 
2013-02-22 01:56:07 PM  

cman: Oh HELL no

DS9 was greater than all other Treks plus Babylon 5 combined.


No it wasn't
 
2013-02-22 01:56:55 PM  
SWEET  one of those threads were we post obscure shiatty shows and claim they were the best!
 
2013-02-22 01:59:04 PM  

Der Poopflinger: SWEET  one of those threads were we post obscure shiatty shows and claim they were the best!


m.cdn.blog.hu
 
2013-02-22 01:59:51 PM  

Evil Mackerel: madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,

Entire races were wiped out on B5.


i.eprci.net
DS9 Killed him
 
2013-02-22 02:00:04 PM  
media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-22 02:01:45 PM  
i17.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-22 02:01:50 PM  

Evil Mackerel: Entire races were wiped out on B5.


That was an awesome episode. The show really made the viewer feel the horror of watching helplessly as everyone around you died. Blotting out the entire race just reinforced what kind of galaxy we were in. And of course since the story is well woven together, access to the Markab homeworld was later destroyed in a military engagement (the bone-head maneuver I believe it was called).
 
2013-02-22 02:02:23 PM  

You Are All Sheep: You know as good as  BSG was for the most part, why can't they reboot Star Blazers?  That'd be a fun series.


I know they did a live-action movie, but if they did a non-Flanderized version for the reboot....
 
2013-02-22 02:03:13 PM  
An itching nose must be scratched.
 
2013-02-22 02:04:42 PM  
One of my favorite lines, from one of my favorite episodes:

"And he made a very satisfying thump when he hit the floor."
 
2013-02-22 02:05:53 PM  
One of the lesser know episodes
i17.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-22 02:07:19 PM  

madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,


I'm not trying to say they were equal, but more named characters died in DS9 than in the rest of the Star Trek series' combined.

**SPOILER below**
Hell, it's the only Star Trek TV series that ends with the captain dead.
 
2013-02-22 02:07:29 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-22 02:08:19 PM  

Wellon Dowd: Quark debuted over 35 years ago.

[i.imgur.com image 720x544]


And today:

insiderlouisville.com
 
2013-02-22 02:09:00 PM  

Teufelaffe: **SPOILER below**


Same as Babylon 5.
 
2013-02-22 02:11:45 PM  
Two more reasons why B5 > DS9: click - click

/Delenn and Ivanova over Kira and Dax any day
// Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God
 
2013-02-22 02:13:20 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-22 02:15:06 PM  

OtherLittleGuy: - Rewatch Season 1 to pick out the foreshadowing.


The very first pilot movie had awesome foreshadowing you'd only notice if you remembered a barely audible line.

When the assassin dressed as Sinclair in the chameleon mesh approaches Kossh, Kossh greets him by saying Entil'zha, or "One who creates the future." It was used to refer to the leaders of the Rangers during the Shadow War, but it really referred to Valen's title as the One. The name was thrown around when the Rangers were revealed, but unless you noticed Kossh saying it before he was shot in the pilot movie, you would have written it off as cryptic alien greeting.
 
2013-02-22 02:16:00 PM  
 
2013-02-22 02:16:11 PM  

Zombie DJ: Teufelaffe: **SPOILER below**

Same as Babylon 5.


Yep.
TOS killed Kirk and Spock 1.0
TNG has only killed Tasha and Data
DS9 killed Jadzia (kinda) and Sisko (kinda)
Voyager killed Janeway 2.0
 
2013-02-22 02:19:34 PM  

Snapper Carr: Two more reasons why B5 > DS9: click - click

/Delenn and Ivanova over Kira and Dax any day
// Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God


Side note - I would pay to see Delenn and Ivanova over Kira and Dax. Or vica versa, I'm not picky Throw Ezri in too...
 
2013-02-22 02:21:56 PM  

madgonad: Stile4aly: B5 has a higher hit to miss ratio than most other Science Fiction, especially when taken in the context of its time.  And I would disagree with the notion "Seasons 1 and 5 suck."  They are less successful than seasons 2 - 4, but there are fantastic episodes in those seasons and they shouldn't just be written off.  Even the so-called garbage episodes have redeeming elements.  TKO, considered one of the worst episodes in the series, has a beautiful B story about Ivanova sitting shiva for her father.

Season one gets a bad rap because it spends so much time introducing the galaxy as it is, developing a rather large cast, and setting up most of the events that happen in the following seasons. An episode like Infection or Mind War introduces ideas that aren't dealt with for the rest of the season, but then it becomes important later in the series. Other stand-alones, like Believers, are often overlooked.

Season five was post-arc due to the compression JMS had in rushing to an end for season 4, but was granted the fifth season anyway. The telepath arc in S5 was a little rough at times, but good. Two stand-alones - Day of the Dead and View from the Gallery were really good. And it kind of sucked to lose Ivanova.

But seriously, no show has done physics and science as well as B5. From red/blue shifts when jumping, use of beam/projectile weapons in combat, and using real physics in flight and on the station. Even little things like the in-station fighting in Severed Dreams. Garibaldi in security wants to use a choke point to contain a boarding enemy, but the Narn's choose to take more severe losses to break the invader's position and stop them immediately. DS9 handled a similar situation by having Federation troops fighting Klingons with Batliths - which was plain old stupid. B5 just felt like something that could happen while ST remains space fantasy.

Oh, and never forget that B5 never glossed over the human losses in war.


Babylon 5 was great (well, one of the reasons) for the same reason DS9 became great: it ignored the shackles of futuristic perfection that Roddenberry bogged down all of Star Trek with. JMS was downright subversive with how muich he went against Roddenberry's ideal vision of the future which is one of the reasons the first two seasons of TNG sucked so hard.

Kids on starships and space stations? Kid's gonna die. Humanity's perfect? Humanity's corrupt as shiat. No religion? Lots of religions, including new ones made up because we came to space. Harlan Ellison's bitterness shown through and made everything interesting instead of the usual anomaly-of-the-week check-out-how-awesome-humans-are bullshiat.

It's the same reason "In the Pale Moonlight" is one of the five greatest episodes in all of Star Trek,

JMS and Harlan Ellison get a lifetime bullshiat pass from me because of Babylon 5, though JMS really, really shouldn't be allowed near comic books.
 
2013-02-22 02:22:09 PM  

madgonad: Evil Mackerel: Entire races were wiped out on B5.

That was an awesome episode. The show really made the viewer feel the horror of watching helplessly as everyone around you died. Blotting out the entire race just reinforced what kind of galaxy we were in. And of course since the story is well woven together, access to the Markab homeworld was later destroyed in a military engagement (the bone-head maneuver I believe it was called).


I know BSG did a really good job of that several times, including in the bombing of Caprica, the takeover of New Caprica, and Zarek's execution of the Quorum.  At each of those points, I was definitely caught up in the moment.

\that level of emotion happened only in one other show, Breaking Bad
 
2013-02-22 02:23:47 PM  
Barely off-topic, but can we agree that a sci-fi buddy cop show starring Keith David and Avery Brooks as themselves would be the greatest program ever made?

/I really want to know where Brooks buys his pot. If you've seen him talk, you know he has the farking HOOKUP.
 
2013-02-22 02:24:01 PM  

idsfa: "God sent me"


i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-22 02:24:57 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: I know BSG did a really good job of that several times, including in the bombing of Caprica, the takeover of New Caprica, and Zarek's execution of the Quorum.  At each of those points, I was definitely caught up in the moment.

\that level of emotion happened only in one other show, Breaking Bad


BSG had some truly amazing episodes, but halfway through the show it just seemed to utterly fizzle. They clearly had no idea where to take it and Sci-fi's insistence that the Cylons "had a plan" and the popularity of the show eventually made them go all-out Lost with it.
 
2013-02-22 02:26:07 PM  

whizbangthedirtfarmer: madgonad: Evil Mackerel: Entire races were wiped out on B5.

That was an awesome episode. The show really made the viewer feel the horror of watching helplessly as everyone around you died. Blotting out the entire race just reinforced what kind of galaxy we were in. And of course since the story is well woven together, access to the Markab homeworld was later destroyed in a military engagement (the bone-head maneuver I believe it was called).

I know BSG did a really good job of that several times, including in the bombing of Caprica, the takeover of New Caprica, and Zarek's execution of the Quorum.  At each of those points, I was definitely caught up in the moment.

\that level of emotion happened only in one other show, Breaking Bad


I agree. A lot of great stuff happened in new BSG, but they wrote themselves into a corner (because they didn't have a plan) and created the worst deliberate series endings ever.
 
2013-02-22 02:26:08 PM  
Fun activity: take any quote from Babylon 5 that would sound badass and cut off the last sentence. That quote is now super-badass.

/Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.
 
2013-02-22 02:27:27 PM  

madgonad: I agree. A lot of great stuff happened in new BSG, but they wrote themselves into a corner (because they didn't have a plan) and created the worst deliberate series endings ever.


It won't happen (and Caprica utterly sucked balls in every way), but I'd love to see a Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood treatment of BSG. Take the great ideas from the first half of the show, run with them, then run in a different direction with a completely different climax and ending to make the entire thing more coherent.
 
2013-02-22 02:27:29 PM  
www.republibot.com
 
2013-02-22 02:27:48 PM  

KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.


Really, the first season sets up the characters and their back-stories, and established the way the universe was (assassination of the president and the like).  This is merely set-up for the main story.  Consider it the intro and opening chapters.  Season 2 is where it starts to get interesting, when things start to happen.
 
2013-02-22 02:29:07 PM  

Bloody William: Fun activity: take any quote from Babylon 5 that would sound badass and cut off the last sentence. That quote is now super-badass.

/Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.


Overall true, but I maintain the faint menace and teeth to "Can your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" really provides a capstone to the monologue.  It's badass anyway, but that last sentence really knocks it over the wall.
 
2013-02-22 02:30:50 PM  
blog.garethjmsaunders.co.uk

What no love for this?

/I know less than 20
//hot link
///somewhat obscure?
 
2013-02-22 02:33:15 PM  
"You are The One that was. You are The One that is. You are The One that will be"
 
2013-02-22 02:37:34 PM  

Tanukis_Parachute: Since Quark has been mentioned... I present to you this...

[www.vampirerave.com image 308x400]


This looks familiar, but it's just outside of my recall range. All I remember is they hit the wrong button when they were hungry and ended up in space.
 
2013-02-22 02:37:50 PM  

radinator: KatjaMouse: I honestly hated Babylon 5. I watched the entire first season last year and could not bring myself to watch the rest. I kept hoping "Maybe it'll get better with the next episode..." and it never did. So I didn't get the appeal for the show, unfortunately.

Really, the first season sets up the characters and their back-stories, and established the way the universe was (assassination of the president and the like).  This is merely set-up for the main story.  Consider it the intro and opening chapters.  Season 2 is where it starts to get interesting, when things start to happen.


That is perhaps one of the worst defenses I've ever heard. I can nod along and agree with people saying that it got better in the second season but that is no excuse for just how boring, cliche and stupid the first season was. Basically the over arching role of a complete season is to compel me not only to tune in but to like the characters enough to tune in week after week. I didn't like anyone at all and the story was doing nothing to compel me to invest any more time.

I think I even pulled an ocular muscle rolling my eyes during one of the "message" episodes.
 
2013-02-22 02:39:31 PM  

Bloody William: whizbangthedirtfarmer: I know BSG did a really good job of that several times, including in the bombing of Caprica, the takeover of New Caprica, and Zarek's execution of the Quorum.  At each of those points, I was definitely caught up in the moment.

\that level of emotion happened only in one other show, Breaking Bad

BSG had some truly amazing episodes, but halfway through the show it just seemed to utterly fizzle. They clearly had no idea where to take it and Sci-fi's insistence that the Cylons "had a plan" and the popularity of the show eventually made them go all-out Lost with it.


I don't quite get the BSG hate.  I thought it was far, far stronger than the "best" sci-fi shows (where we acknowledge entire seasons suck or that they have only two or three good episodes each).  Yes, they lost control with the "final five" thing, but even so, BSG at its worst often outstripped pretty much any other show, especially SF, at its best.

Can only really think of one "boring" or "bad" episode of BSG: the one with Starbuck playing the piano.

\also don't understand the hatred of the ending ... it is as if they didn't watch the original series
 
2013-02-22 02:39:34 PM  

Last Man on Earth: Bloody William: Fun activity: take any quote from Babylon 5 that would sound badass and cut off the last sentence. That quote is now super-badass.

/Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.

Overall true, but I maintain the faint menace and teeth to "Can your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" really provides a capstone to the monologue.  It's badass anyway, but that last sentence really knocks it over the wall.


Badass? This is badass:
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me"
 
2013-02-22 02:40:05 PM  
Eureka isn't that old.
 
2013-02-22 02:40:46 PM  

give me doughnuts: Eureka isn't that old.


Neither is Star Trek Voyager
 
2013-02-22 02:43:32 PM  

KingKauff: Last Man on Earth: Bloody William: Fun activity: take any quote from Babylon 5 that would sound badass and cut off the last sentence. That quote is now super-badass.

/Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.

Overall true, but I maintain the faint menace and teeth to "Can your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" really provides a capstone to the monologue.  It's badass anyway, but that last sentence really knocks it over the wall.

Badass? This is badass:
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me"


Hell yeah, that's badass.  Quite possibly the biggest badass line in the entire series.  Doesn't make it the only badass line in the series, though.
 
2013-02-22 02:45:10 PM  

KingKauff: Last Man on Earth: Bloody William: Fun activity: take any quote from Babylon 5 that would sound badass and cut off the last sentence. That quote is now super-badass.

/Only one human captain has ever survived battle with a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.

Overall true, but I maintain the faint menace and teeth to "Can your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?" really provides a capstone to the monologue.  It's badass anyway, but that last sentence really knocks it over the wall.

Badass? This is badass:
"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me"



Additional badass:

"Upon arrival you will report for debriefing. And just one more thing, on your trip back I want you to take the time to learn the Babylon 5 mantra. Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!"
 
2013-02-22 02:48:53 PM  

Bloody William: Barely off-topic, but can we agree that a sci-fi buddy cop show starring Keith David and Avery Brooks as themselves would be the greatest program ever made?


This needs to happen. In fact, can we just put Keith David in everything? I'd watch that.
 
2013-02-22 02:48:55 PM  

KingKauff: "You are The One that was. You are The One that is. You are The One that will be"


Zathras was the only character that I dispised.  I dont know what it was about him.
 
2013-02-22 02:50:26 PM  

Evil Mackerel: madgonad: Teufelaffe: Zombie DJ: Star Trek would usually hit the reset button at the end of the show, while B5 wasn't afraid to kill characters off.

DS9 actually killed off a few characters by the end of the run.  In many ways DS9 was a pretty huge departure from "standard" Star Trek shows.

Who did DS9 kill off? Jadzia was just replaced by Ezri.

B5 killed Keffer, Kosh, Talia, and Marcus. Plus Morden, Brother Edward, Emperor Cartagia, Sheridan's first wife, Byron, General Hague, Lord Refa, and others - and that is just counting characters that appeared in multiple episodes. They killed tons of single episode characters.,

Entire races were wiped out on B5.


and I didn't get until later what genius that really was.  I'm not ashamed to say that when I first say the pilot I was completely turned off- I thought was a cheap ST knock-off with the Narns being the Klingons, the Centauri were obviously the comic-relief like the Ferengi, and the Mimbari were obviously vulcans.  As such I missed a lot of the shows until the episode "Believers"  which took a standard TVtrope of the good doctor ignroing the wishes of the Christian Scientist-like aliens to save their kid-and ditched the happy ending for something MUCH darker.  I came away from that episode thinking..."hmmm at sci-fi show with some balls...interesting".  But After "Confessions and Lamnetations" I was well and truly hooked.  That episode is so uncompromisingly brutal, not only is the race wiped out on the station but EVERYWHERE, and in the closing moments of the episode, the reaction of the bar patron's to this unimaginable horror (making "dead Mark'hab" jokes) is so  tough and true to life I was in awe.

What I didn;t realize until later is that episode gave JMS the credibility necessary to make seasons 3 &4 the masterpieces they were.  He'd established that he wasn't the slightest bit afraid of letting bad things happen to good people, or to let big-time characters die.  So when the cast and crew were in peril, you DIDN'T have that comfortable reassurance in the back of your mind that everyone not wearing a red shirt was going to be just fine and comeback for next week's episode.
 
2013-02-22 02:50:32 PM  
I still use "Not the one, not the one" around the house.
 
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