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(Washington Post)   Ekspertów językowych uruchomić kampanię zapisać diakrytyczne wytłoków polskiej, zagrożonej przez IT   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 55
    More: Interesting, Polish, education minister  
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4172 clicks; posted to Geek » on 21 Feb 2013 at 1:52 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-21 10:58:03 AM
łół
 
2013-02-21 01:09:03 PM
Dammit.  Now I have to return to my home in the 5th dimension!
 
2013-02-21 01:39:50 PM

Diogenes: Dammit.  Now I have to return to my home in the 5th dimension!


WHERE YOU BELONG
 
2013-02-21 02:01:39 PM
Given the number of top-notch mathematicians, logicians, and smart people coming out of Poland (nasty jokes aside), one would imagine that we should be trying to import all those little marks into languages that lack them.

/And only use polish notation for symbolic logic!
 
2013-02-21 02:09:03 PM
alsØ alsØ wik...
 
2013-02-21 02:09:59 PM
Ah, those cunning linguists.
 
2013-02-21 02:11:46 PM
as a polish  descendant I think this is a good idea and interests me.
 
2013-02-21 02:15:42 PM
 
2013-02-21 02:17:06 PM
I do reverse Polish. Do I win a prize?
 
2013-02-21 02:29:40 PM
If your language needs so many marks to work, then the Latin alphabet probably isn't the right alphabet for you.

/Cyrillicize all the things!
 
2013-02-21 02:57:51 PM
I don't speak enough Polish to correct this headline, but that grammar is atrocious.
 
2013-02-21 02:58:01 PM
Diacritical marcs?
 
2013-02-21 03:08:18 PM
i406.photobucket.com  What's going on in this thread?
 
2013-02-21 03:10:49 PM

Tax Boy: If your language needs so many marks to work, then the Latin alphabet probably isn't the right alphabet for you.

/Cyrillicize all the things!


Yeah, go to Poland and tell them they need to adopt the Russian alphabet.  That ought to go over rrreeeaaalll well ...
 
2013-02-21 03:17:35 PM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-21 03:30:23 PM
Unicode is hard.
 
2013-02-21 03:43:13 PM
So I neither speak nor read a word of Polish. How critical to understanding are the diacritical marks? In other words, how many homographs are there if diacritical marks are removed, and how much context would be needed to distinguish the common homographs?
 
2013-02-21 03:46:14 PM
Bardzo dobre subby!
/piwo z rana...
 
2013-02-21 03:52:33 PM
i.wp.pl
I'd mark her diacriticals...
 
2013-02-21 04:13:23 PM
All I want to know is how many of the people involved were required to screw in a light bulb.
 
2013-02-21 04:14:52 PM

Giozef: I don't speak enough Polish to correct this headline, but that grammar is atrocious.


Google Translate is what I used.  I know zero Polish; the main goal was to get a headline with a bunch of the marks in it, which it did.
 
DB
2013-02-21 04:18:59 PM

Lord Dimwit: So I neither speak nor read a word of Polish. How critical to understanding are the diacritical marks? In other words, how many homographs are there if diacritical marks are removed, and how much context would be needed to distinguish the common homographs?


If only there were an article somewhere explaining these things. Perhaps a link one could click.
 
2013-02-21 04:20:24 PM
at first i wtf
then i lol

/live with it
/things change
 
2013-02-21 04:20:45 PM
 Or, you could be smart and make your own damned keyboard for your own damned language.

Cherokee.
 
2013-02-21 04:21:35 PM
Must be pollacks.
 
2013-02-21 04:54:46 PM
Polish requires absolutely 0 extra key presses in iOs. You do have to set your keyboard to Polish, but.....you know, if you are writing Polish you already did that.

It's also not that hard to set up on a PC.

//I only know enough Polish to insult my wife.
///Which I do constantly.
 
2013-02-21 05:09:47 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Giozef: I don't speak enough Polish to correct this headline, but that grammar is atrocious.

Google Translate is what I used.  I know zero Polish; the main goal was to get a headline with a bunch of the marks in it, which it did.


Hah. Fair enough. I figured it was online translator whaargarbl'd.
 
2013-02-21 05:10:15 PM

phalamir: Tax Boy: If your language needs so many marks to work, then the Latin alphabet probably isn't the right alphabet for you.

/Cyrillicize all the things!

Yeah, go to Poland and tell them they need to adopt the Russian alphabet.  That ought to go over rrreeeaaalll well ...


Technically you'd be asking them to use the Bulgarian alphabet. They're the ones who started it. And you couldn't use the standard Russian alphabet anyway, you'd have to fudge a lot.

Anyway, right now the Poles use the same alphabet as the Germans, and they don't seem to mind despite the Germans trying to exterminate their people.
 
2013-02-21 05:37:45 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Anyway, right now the Poles use the same alphabet as the Germans, and they don't seem to mind despite the Germans trying to exterminate their peopleJews.


Fixed
 
2013-02-21 06:00:08 PM

DB: Lord Dimwit: So I neither speak nor read a word of Polish. How critical to understanding are the diacritical marks? In other words, how many homographs are there if diacritical marks are removed, and how much context would be needed to distinguish the common homographs?

If only there were an article somewhere explaining these things. Perhaps a link one could click.


I asked because the article says things like "some words". I was curious as to how many and how common these words are.
 
2013-02-21 06:31:59 PM

Lord Dimwit: So I neither speak nor read a word of Polish. How critical to understanding are the diacritical marks? In other words, how many homographs are there if diacritical marks are removed, and how much context would be needed to distinguish the common homographs?


Well, they're not called diaoptional marks, so I'm guessing they're pretty important.
 
2013-02-21 06:32:48 PM

andychrist420: Lord Dimwit: So I neither speak nor read a word of Polish. How critical to understanding are the diacritical marks? In other words, how many homographs are there if diacritical marks are removed, and how much context would be needed to distinguish the common homographs?

Well, they're not called diaoptional marks, so I'm guessing they're pretty important.


Okay, that got a laugh.
 
2013-02-21 06:49:39 PM
Or maybe get them to all speak English like God and the Queen intended...

//JK
 
2013-02-21 08:05:30 PM

vudukungfu: Or, you could be smart and make your own damned keyboard for your own damned language.

Cherokee.


With blackjack and hookers?
 
2013-02-21 09:23:59 PM

Stone Meadow: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Anyway, right now the Poles use the same alphabet as the Germans, and they don't seem to mind despite the Germans trying to exterminate their peopleJews.

Fixed


Apparently, a lot of non-Jew poles were also killed by the Germans.
 
2013-02-21 09:39:03 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Stone Meadow: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Anyway, right now the Poles use the same alphabet as the Germans, and they don't seem to mind despite the Germans trying to exterminate their peopleJews.

Fixed

Apparently, a lot of non-Jew poles were also killed by the Germans.


True enough, though the only segment of the Polish population the Germans tried to exterminate was the Jewish one. Oh, and the non-Jewish Poles were only too happy to throw their Jews under the Nazi bustrain
 
2013-02-21 10:37:27 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Stone Meadow: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: Anyway, right now the Poles use the same alphabet as the Germans, and they don't seem to mind despite the Germans trying to exterminate their peopleJews.

Fixed

Apparently, a lot of non-Jew poles were also killed by the Germans.


Yeah, I visited Poland a few years ago, that's a real sore point with them. 6 million jews were killed, but so where 5 million poles, and they have a point- most people only ever talk about the 6 million jews, and the way the holocost tends to be taught, that's where all the emphasis lies. In reality, it's not much more than half. Also learned that I lost a relative- second cousin, twice removed or something like that. He gave two slices of bread to a passing jew, and they took him to Auschwitz. Which is something you should go and see if you ever get a chance.

And no, they are not real fond of either Germany or Russia over there. And it's really astonishing how fresh and raw the history feels- under communist rule, they weren't allowed to talk about nazi atrocities, and certainly not allowed to talk about the Communist ones, so they're really only able to discuss and come to terms with several decades of their history now. Brand new museums and memorials are popping up all over the place as that history finally comes into the open. Really a fascinating place to visit.


Stone Meadow: though the only segment of the Polish population the Germans tried to exterminate was the Jewish one. Oh, and the non-Jewish Poles were only too happy to throw their Jews under the Nazi bustrain


And that's exactly why the Poles are really touchy on the subject of the holocaust. That's not particularly true. In fact, it's disgustingly false. The Polish Resistance saved far more jews from the holocaust than anybody else did. And the nazis were trying to exterminate mass swathes of ethnic poles on nothing but racial lines.
 
2013-02-21 10:56:30 PM
And since we're on the topic of people who've exterminated the Poles, I'll also note the Swedes have their own nasty little history with Poland too.
 
2013-02-21 11:18:09 PM

cptjeff: Stone Meadow: though the only segment of the Polish population the Germans tried to exterminate was the Jewish one. Oh, and the non-Jewish Poles were only too happy to throw their Jews under the Nazi bustrain

And that's exactly why the Poles are really touchy on the subject of the holocaust. That's not particularly true. In fact, it's disgustingly false. The Polish Resistance saved far more jews from the holocaust than anybody else did. And the nazis were trying to exterminate mass swathes of ethnic poles on nothing but racial lines.


All of what you say may be true, but it does nothing to mitigate the fact that the Germans sought to exterminate Polish Jews (and murdered more than 90% of them). Moreover, the Polish police actively aided the Nazis rounding up Jews and even operating the death camps. In contrast, "only" 16% of Poles died in WW2, including those lost to the advancing Russians in the late stages of the war. The Germans killed plenty of Poles, but never tried to exterminate them.
 
2013-02-22 06:36:05 AM
Polish should have their own keyboard and only be allowed to talk to other polish.
 
2013-02-22 09:36:56 AM
A friend of mine immigrated to Canada from Poland when he was a child, so his written Polish wasn't great, but he spoke fluently. When he got older he spent some time in Poland and even got a job transcribing a radio show. He thought he was doing a decent job until someone actually took a look at his work and were baffled by what he wrote and asked if he was retarded. I'm guessing he wasn't fluent with those diacritics.
 
2013-02-22 10:26:06 AM

Stone Meadow: I do reverse Polish. Do I win a prize?


Is that anything like reverse cowgirl?
 
2013-02-22 10:33:14 AM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: And since we're on the topic of people who've exterminated the Poles, I'll also note the Swedes have their own nasty little history with Poland too.


From further back, though, right?  Like, centuries?
 
2013-02-22 10:48:52 AM
I've recently started to actively learn the language.  My mother (Polish) moved to Australia as a child, and though she speaks polish exceptionally well, she can't write the language at all.  Her spelling is atrocious.

We just came from a few days in Warsaw where she was told, on two separate occasions, that her use of the language was beautiful.  Unfortunately, she decided not to teach me the language until I was about 5.  At which time, I was a stubborn kindergartener, and didn't want to learn.  She didn't push, and I had other things to do.  Now, that I am actively learning on my own, I have come to realize that she is a terrible teacher.  Why didn't she start teaching me when I was a baby, and didn't have an opinion on the matter?  No, she waits until I'm old enough not to want to do things.

I've been dealing with Polish bureaucracy, a lot.  The number of Polish officials that speak English, but refuse to (to me, at least), is baffling.  I was on the phone to someone at the Polish Consulate, and was told - in perfect English - that they would only discuss the matter with me in Polish.  Me: Yes, but you speak English, and I can't speak Polish well.  Her: But I will only discuss this matter in Polish, so perhaps you should find someone who can speak Polish, and have them translate for you.

There is an immeasurable amount of pride that runs through people who speak Polish.  It's like a special club.  I'm told every time I go into the local Polski Sklep that Polish is the world's hardest language, and the shop assistant does this twisted little smile that makes me feel sick.  I just know she's thinking, "go ahead, and learn to speak my language.  You won't."  Oh, I live in the Netherlands, and I also get told by, pretty much everyone, that Dutch is the world's hardest language.  Dutch is easier than Polish... especially if you have a cold.  Somehow the excess phlegm makes the guttural g sound just a little better.

While waiting to get on the plane to Warsaw (last week), there was a Japanese man who was talking to his Polish wife in Polish.  My mother turned to me and said, well if he can learn the language, so can you.  Snicker.

So, ah, yay for Poland.
 
2013-02-22 11:12:36 AM

Vetticus: I've recently started to actively learn the language.  My mother (Polish) moved to Australia as a child, and though she speaks polish exceptionally well, she can't write the language at all.  Her spelling is atrocious.

We just came from a few days in Warsaw where she was told, on two separate occasions, that her use of the language was beautiful.  Unfortunately, she decided not to teach me the language until I was about 5.  At which time, I was a stubborn kindergartener, and didn't want to learn.  She didn't push, and I had other things to do.  Now, that I am actively learning on my own, I have come to realize that she is a terrible teacher.  Why didn't she start teaching me when I was a baby, and didn't have an opinion on the matter?  No, she waits until I'm old enough not to want to do things.

I've been dealing with Polish bureaucracy, a lot.  The number of Polish officials that speak English, but refuse to (to me, at least), is baffling.  I was on the phone to someone at the Polish Consulate, and was told - in perfect English - that they would only discuss the matter with me in Polish.  Me: Yes, but you speak English, and I can't speak Polish well.  Her: But I will only discuss this matter in Polish, so perhaps you should find someone who can speak Polish, and have them translate for you.

There is an immeasurable amount of pride that runs through people who speak Polish.  It's like a special club.  I'm told every time I go into the local Polski Sklep that Polish is the world's hardest language, and the shop assistant does this twisted little smile that makes me feel sick.  I just know she's thinking, "go ahead, and learn to speak my language.  You won't."  Oh, I live in the Netherlands, and I also get told by, pretty much everyone, that Dutch is the world's hardest language.  Dutch is easier than Polish... especially if you have a cold.  Somehow the excess phlegm makes the guttural g sound just a little better.

While waiting to get on the plane to Warsaw (las ...


My maternal grandparents were from Poland and my mom, although born in the US, only learned English when she went to school.  However, her parents died before I was born, so she stopped speaking Polish.  I ended up minoring in Russian in college (Polish wasn't offered) and what Polish I speak and can read processes via the Russian I studied.  I spent the summer of 1987 in the Soviet Union and ended up staying with relatives in Poland for a few weeks.  Back then, pretty much noone in Poland spoke English.

Polish is among the more difficult Indo-European languages to acquire, but nothing compared to Arabic (which I've studied very little) and Chinese (which I've studied in a few college courses).
 
2013-02-22 11:37:07 AM
My mother was born in Poland, and so were most of her friends.  They all speak English to each other.

I think a lot of the difficulty in Polish is the accent.  I have an Aussie accent, which comes through quite thick when I get lazy speaking, or if it's a new word that I'm sounding out.  My accent somehow changes the meaning of a legitimate foreign word into complete rubbish (Dutch and Polish).  Also, I can't hear the difference between a word ending with e or ę.  Which is pretty sacrilegious when admitted to a Polish person.

Cześć sounds almost the same as sześć, which in turn sounds like czy.  I have a horrible time with pronouncing trzy, but alright with trzydzieści and trzynaście.  To many shhh sounds.  Sometimes I think that all I should say is: shhh pani shhhh shhh shhh shh pani.  Shhh shhh shhh pan, shh shhh shh pan.  Shhh?  Shhhh.  And I'll be perfectly understood.
 
2013-02-22 02:37:12 PM
Both sets of my Grandparents were Polish (my Mom's parents worked in labor camps).  Polish was spoken all the time at home between my parents and Grandparents and any friends we had over (we lived in a Polish area of Michigan).  Like Vetticus, my mom refused to teach us any Polish, but my grandparents tried teaching me the random word every week.  I learned names of objects, but nothing really conversational.

A few years ago I went to Poland for my honeymoon.  I learned a few phrases just to try to communicate - "I speak little Polish."  Unlike Vetticus, EVERY time I used the phrase I got a positive reaction.  I was complimented on my accent, and bartenders said they had businessmen who had been visiting for years and never bothered learning a simple greeting.

Trying the Rosetta Stone now, works pretty well, but in Los Angeles there's very few places to practice.  I watch Polish films, subtitled in English, and get tickled when I realize that words are left out or phrases are different.
 
2013-02-23 05:00:26 AM

turboke: Stone Meadow: I do reverse Polish. Do I win a prize?

Is that anything like reverse cowgirl?


Yes, except with a german invasion.
 
2013-02-23 10:15:54 AM

turboke: Stone Meadow: I do reverse Polish. Do I win a prize?

Is that anything like reverse cowgirl?


No. It's more like "3 4 +" instead of the conventional "3 + 4".

/ I was doing it before it was cool
 
2013-02-23 12:33:00 PM

Stone Meadow: turboke: Stone Meadow: I do reverse Polish. Do I win a prize?

Is that anything like reverse cowgirl?

No. It's more like "3 4 +" instead of the conventional "3 + 4".

/ I was doing it before it was cool


Wow! Mine is just "1 1 +".

/ and a lot of "1 -" when I was younger
// I guess you need to know more Dutch than RPN to get that
 
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