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(Washington Post)   Washington Nationals facing troubling problem for the 2013 Season: Their bench players are too good   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 50
    More: Interesting, Washington Nationals, Roger Bernadina, Nationals facing, Wilson Ramos, Ian Desmond, Davey Johnson, Jonathan Papelbon, George Zimmerman  
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1116 clicks; posted to Sports » on 21 Feb 2013 at 1:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-21 01:46:15 PM
GO NATS!
 
2013-02-21 01:54:05 PM
HEY GUYS LETS TALK ABOUT FOOTBALL
 
2013-02-21 01:55:38 PM
What do you know? The Jays have the same problem with their bullpen now.
 
2013-02-21 02:00:38 PM
Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?
 
2013-02-21 02:07:16 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?


I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far
 
2013-02-21 02:32:02 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?

I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far


Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year
 
2013-02-21 02:42:19 PM

MugzyBrown: Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year


Washington was 14th in average attendance last season.
 
2013-02-21 02:47:08 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.


Depth is always good. Always. Players will get hurt during the course of a 162 game season. I can't think of a single team that didn't have to run out a crappy sub-replacement player at some point last season. If Washington has to do that less often than its opponents, they're in good shape.
 
2013-02-21 02:49:01 PM

MugzyBrown: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?

I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far

Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year


Way to move the goal posts to something you have a better chance at beating us in this year.  I don't know what your attendance was like after Kruk & Dykstra retired & before Utley & Howard came to town, but your team has been around for over 100 years.  DC has had a team since '05.  And we were terrible at first.  But remember this: fans come to see a winner.  And we got a winner.  Enjoy the next decade buster.  All of your stars are on the wrong side of 30.
 
2013-02-21 02:58:57 PM
A deep bench is not a problem, unless those bench players are complete narcissists.
 
2013-02-21 02:59:19 PM

MugzyBrown: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?

I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far

Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year


Yeah, attendance has been steadily increasing, we finally had more home-team fans than Phillies fans last year.  I'm sure over time as the team is more entrenched in the area and especially now that they have shown hints of success, the fan base will grow.  This town loves winners, and can be fanatically loyal (just look at the Redskins, most people still love em even though they have been a train wreck for over a decade).  Also, the area around the stadium is gradually becoming a better place to hang out.  There is a new brew-pub opening 2 blocks from the stadium (Gordon Biersch) and a whole new brewery 3-4 blocks away.  Plus they are breaking ground on some other big buildings, but redevelopment is a long slow process.  Anyone who was familiar with SE DC in the 90's would barely recognize the area now.

My goal is to make it to 10 games.  I know, not exactly superfan levels, but it is a start.
 
2013-02-21 03:01:10 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?


When I had TF for the past month I would try to submit one every day we didn't get a thread, and then I'd unleash an angry, vitriolic rant in the comments when it was redlit.

/probably because they were d-backs related, although one was the story of Josh Hamilton shiatting on the DFW area, I thought that was a sure fire
//it's baseball season damnit, Spring Training has been reported for, we need a t least one thread a day!
 
2013-02-21 03:07:14 PM
There will be injuries, there always are... our bench(the Goon Squad) loves playing here, they'll all stay since they'll get rings too ;)

/a little ahead of myself
//just locked in 14 games... see y'all opening day!
///Nats fans, go buy the Os away games, plenty of cheap tix available!
////slashies just stole home
 
2013-02-21 03:25:04 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?

I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far


To be fair, it is not like Werth is really one of the Nats' best two players.

Or three... or four... ok, the guy clearly plays for the Nats, let's just leave it at that.

/Cub fan in DC
//nice park
 
2013-02-21 03:37:47 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed. If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well." Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up. It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.


The Nats got more PAs out of Zimmerman than the Phillies got out of Howard and Utley combined last year. (Though Howard sucked so much ass when he did play he might as well have missed the whole season)

The general idea that the Nats have youth and depth and the Phillies are old and busted is pretty true, though.  Amaro really needs to stop making trades for the sake of making trades because he's not all that good at it.
 
2013-02-21 03:56:03 PM

you have pee hands: The general idea that the Nats have youth and depth and the Phillies are old and busted is pretty true, though. Amaro really needs to stop making trades for the sake of making trades because he's not all that good at it.


What trades are you talking about?  His trades have been mostly benign in regards to what was lost/gained (except in the case of Halladay).  His problem is that he put all of his eggs in the starting pitching basket while not paying enough attention to a flawed and aging lineup.  It almost worked, but it might just be too late now.  I think they can compete for the division this year, but it wouldn't surprise me if the injuries derail them again.
 
2013-02-21 04:00:22 PM

bacongood: my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: Mid_mo_mad_man: Can we have a baseball thread that isn't about the Nats?

I don't have TF (and I realize you don't either), but have there been a lot of other baseball threads submitted?

I did think this was an interesting article, as a Nats fan I obviously love having problems like this, but at some point some of these bench players are going to want to play everyday somewhere, and I think many of them have the talent/skill to.

I also loved the quote from the Philly guy who said (paraphrased): "We lost our 2 best guys to injury, if that happens to any team they are screwed.  If the nats lost Werth and Zimmerman they wouldn't have done as well."  Well, uh, we DID lose Werth and Zimmerman (and Desmond, and Ramos), but our bench guys just stepped up.  It was heartbreaking to see them lose that last playoff game, especially after getting out to what seemed like a comfortable lead early, but I'm sure that is going to motivate the entire team that much more this year.

/Really high hopes
//Not guaranteeing anything
/But I like the odds this year better than any other so far

To be fair, it is not like Werth is really one of the Nats' best two players.

Or three... or four... ok, the guy clearly plays for the Nats, let's just leave it at that.

/Cub fan in DC
//nice park


Hehe, true, Werth is definitely not one of the 2 best on the team, although it is actually pretty hard to argue who the 2 best are.  Which I think is good, since they all have a lot of positives across the board.  And of course I was only talking position players, our 2 best players last year were almost definitely pitchers, at least based on comparing stats amongs the league, but depth at pitcher is a different animal than depth at fielding spots.

Desmond really busted out last year, and nothing I saw looked like a lfuke, just gradual improvement over a couple eyars and feeling secure in the system.  Plus he and Espinosa can really lock down the center of the infield, they have such great chemistry on teh double plays also, taken as a pair, they might get my vote as "2 best", but Zimmerman is so damn consistantly good both with the stick and the glove (ignoring his occasional awful throw) it is hard not to automatically name him #1.  LaRoche is great, I didn't buy into him in 2011 and thought we should have kept Morse at 1B, but I had to admit I was dead wrong last year.  Werth/Morse/Harper and hell, Bernadina too, all had ups and downs.  Harper has the highest ceiling, but so far he hasn't been consistantly dominant, although he is good-to-great at so many aspects of the game, it is amazing to see such a young player excel at so many facets of baseball.

God I can't wait for the season to start.  Sorry for filling up the damn thread with my homer ranting...

/And it truly is a nice park.  Nothing gimmicky, just a solid field, in a nice location, with great views from all over.
//Wish there was cheaper (or better) beer though
/But that is what my flask is for
 
2013-02-21 04:02:09 PM
Oh, and I do realize Morse is no longer a National, I was just thinking through who my "2 best" from last eyars team would be.
 
2013-02-21 04:12:32 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: What trades are you talking about?


He got less than he should have when he traded Lee to Seattle and he overpaid Houston for a player having an unrepeatable career year in Pence.  Giving up anything at all for Micheal Young at this point also seems dumb but I don't know if maybe Texas is sending along money in that deal so maybe it's not so bad.  I think the Revere move is sort of questionable too, because despite the aces the Phillies now might not even have a great rotation because they've given away so much pitching depth.  I'm not sure that any one individual deal is all that terrible but he seems to lose a little more talent than he gets each time and now the cumulative effect is an old team and a gutted farm system.

Although his single worst move was the Howard extension which isn't a trade.  I just think, in general, there probably are very few GMs who have done less with more.
 
2013-02-21 04:35:15 PM

you have pee hands: I just think, in general, there probably are very few GMs who have done less with more.


Ruben Amaro's got a ways to go before he can challenge Omar Minaya and Bill Bavasi in that category. Or David Samson, if you want to stick with currently employed personnel.
 
2013-02-21 04:50:00 PM

you have pee hands: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: What trades are you talking about?

He got less than he should have when he traded Lee to Seattle and he overpaid Houston for a player having an unrepeatable career year in Pence.  Giving up anything at all for Micheal Young at this point also seems dumb but I don't know if maybe Texas is sending along money in that deal so maybe it's not so bad.  I think the Revere move is sort of questionable too, because despite the aces the Phillies now might not even have a great rotation because they've given away so much pitching depth.  I'm not sure that any one individual deal is all that terrible but he seems to lose a little more talent than he gets each time and now the cumulative effect is an old team and a gutted farm system.

Although his single worst move was the Howard extension which isn't a trade.  I just think, in general, there probably are very few GMs who have done less with more.


How much more could he have gotten for Lee who, at the time, was nearing the end of his contract and likely going to pursue free agency.  Obviously Amaro flip-flopped on his position when broke out the checkbook for him to come back.  But also keep in mind that the Halladay deal was technically part of the Lee deal.  So at the very least you can say the outcome is he slightly upgraded his number one pitcher in the deal.

I don't have much of a problem with the Pence deal.  He was brought in mostly to bolster the lineup for their playoff run, which he did until the entire lineup faltered in the playoffs.  Who did they really give up to get him?  Plus Houston gave them 2 million to help cover his salary.  The deal didn't work out long term, but it wasn't terrible.

Too early to call the Revere deal, but I guess it could be questionable.  However I'd argue that he gave up a #4 starter (# 3 at best on another team) and a prospect (who could go either way) for an every day player.

I don't think his GM tenure has been stellar, but you can't discount the good moves he's made either.  I just think his philosophy has backfired on him.
 
2013-02-21 04:58:39 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: But also keep in mind that the Halladay deal was technically part of the Lee deal.


No, it wasn't. Why do people still think this?

They were two completely separate deals, even though they were on the same day. You can argue that that Halladay deal "depleted the farm system" or "required too much payroll", and so the Lee deal attempted to fix those problems. But that doesn't mean they were the same deal.
 
2013-02-21 05:08:58 PM

DeWayne Mann: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: But also keep in mind that the Halladay deal was technically part of the Lee deal.

No, it wasn't. Why do people still think this?

They were two completely separate deals, even though they were on the same day. You can argue that that Halladay deal "depleted the farm system" or "required too much payroll", and so the Lee deal attempted to fix those problems. But that doesn't mean they were the same deal.


They weren't the same deal, but neither happens without the other.  So they are directly tied together in that regard.
 
2013-02-21 05:11:09 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: How much more could he have gotten for Lee who, at the time, was nearing the end of his contract and likely going to pursue free agency. Obviously Amaro flip-flopped on his position when broke out the checkbook for him to come back. But also keep in mind that the Halladay deal was technically part of the Lee deal. So at the very least you can say the outcome is he slightly upgraded his number one pitcher in the deal.

I don't have much of a problem with the Pence deal. He was brought in mostly to bolster the lineup for their playoff run, which he did until the entire lineup faltered in the playoffs. Who did they really give up to get him? Plus Houston gave them 2 million to help cover his salary. The deal didn't work out long term, but it wasn't terrible.


As DeWayne Mann said the Lee and Halladay deals didn't involve any of the same players.  And most trades of aces, even rentals, involved at least one top 100 prospect while the Phillies just got three mid level guys from Seattle.

For Pence they gave up Singleton, a top 50 hitting prospect (though blocked by Howard and I see just now that he got 50 games this offseason for weed, whoops) and a top 100 pitching prospect, which is kind of a lot to give up for a good, but not great, player making already $10M+ a year.
 
2013-02-21 05:19:17 PM

Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: DeWayne Mann: Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadu: But also keep in mind that the Halladay deal was technically part of the Lee deal.

No, it wasn't. Why do people still think this?

They were two completely separate deals, even though they were on the same day. You can argue that that Halladay deal "depleted the farm system" or "required too much payroll", and so the Lee deal attempted to fix those problems. But that doesn't mean they were the same deal.

They weren't the same deal, but neither happens without the other.  So they are directly tied together in that regard.


So, again, you're either arguing that the Halladay deal depleted the farm system and/or required too much payroll.

In either case, you do NOT have to trade Cliff Lee immediately. It was December 16. They had a good 3 months to get their payroll down, and even more time than that to get prospects.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that the Phillies weren't going to get a better offer than J.C. Ramirez, Tyson Gillies and Phillippe Aumont at some point in the next three months.
 
2013-02-21 05:30:58 PM
 
2013-02-21 05:30:58 PM

DeWayne Mann: So, again, you're either arguing that the Halladay deal depleted the farm system and/or required too much payroll.

In either case, you do NOT have to trade Cliff Lee immediately. It was December 16. They had a good 3 months to get their payroll down, and even more time than that to get prospects.

I find it incredibly difficult to believe that the Phillies weren't going to get a better offer than J.C. Ramirez, Tyson Gillies and Phillippe Aumont at some point in the next three months.


I understand that.  I certainly don't think Amaro handled that trade well and even noted that when I said he flip-flopped later and paid Lee.  You can certainly argue that he could have gotten more at the time, but I don't think you can say the entire course of events resulted in a net loss.

you have pee hands: As DeWayne Mann said the Lee and Halladay deals didn't involve any of the same players. And most trades of aces, even rentals, involved at least one top 100 prospect while the Phillies just got three mid level guys from Seattle.

For Pence they gave up Singleton, a top 50 hitting prospect (though blocked by Howard and I see just now that he got 50 games this offseason for weed, whoops) and a top 100 pitching prospect, which is kind of a lot to give up for a good, but not great, player making already $10M+ a year.


I still think the Pence deal can be defended.  They were shooting for another World Series appearance and he gave them a better chance of getting there at the time.  The prospects in most of these deals either haven't panned out or haven't had enough time to reach a conclusion.  That's why I think it's hard to automatically assume any of these trades are a loss when one of the metrics is still "potential."

Amaro has gotten a solid "meh" grade from me.  For all of his good moves, he's made questionable ones.  Unless they can pull off some magic this year, then I think his tenure will be looked at as a failure.  In the case of this season coming up short, Charlie will probably fall on the sword for him.
 
2013-02-21 05:54:56 PM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: MugzyBrown:

Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year

Yeah, attendance has been steadily increasing, we finally had more home-team fans than Phillies fans last year.  I'm sure over time as the team is more entrenched in the area and especially now that they have shown hints of success, the fan base will grow.  This town loves winners, and can be fanatically loyal (just look at the Redskins, most people still love em even though they have been a train wreck for over a decade).  Also, the area around the stadium is gradually becoming a better place to hang out.  There is a new brew-pub opening 2 blocks from the stadium (Gordon Biersch) and a whole new brewery 3-4 blocks away.  Plus they are breaking ground on some other big buildings, but redevelopment is a long slow process.  Anyone who was familiar with SE DC in the 90's would barely recog ...



As a Nats fan that lives in B-More it is a pain in the ass to get down to a game. That being said I did watch 90% of the games last year and intend to do the same this year. I also already have tickets for about 8 games and I have been saving up for World Series tickets since July of last year. I can't wait to get hammered Red Porch on opening day.
 
2013-02-21 07:01:03 PM
 
2013-02-21 08:54:49 PM

you have pee hands: The general idea that the Nats have youth and depth and the Phillies are old and busted is pretty true, though. Amaro really needs to stop making trades for the sake of making trades because he's not all that good at it.


Phillies' probable 2013 starting 8, with ages:

C Carlos Ruiz (34; suspended at beginning of season for amphetamines, so the mighty Erik Kratz will fill in)
1B Ryan Howard (33; hurt in 2012)
2B Chase Utley (34; hurt in 2012)
3B Michael Young (36; is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty)
SS Jimmy Rollins (34)
LF Domonic Brown (25)
CF Ben Revere (25)
RF Delmon Young (27)
UT: John Mayberry Jr. (29)

I think Domonic Brown deserves a full-time chance, but he's been below-replacement level for three straight seasons.  Delmon Young has been in the majors since 2006, and he's put up a combined 0.6 bWAR.  Ben Revere is an all-glove slap-hitter.  John Mayberry is a good bench player, but you're not excited if he has to start.

If the retirees playing in the infield don't carry the team, the Phillies may be abysmal even with Halladay/Lee/Hamels/Papelbon doing their thing.  They definitely don't have the problem the Nationals have with finding roster spots for all their decent fringe-y guys.
 
2013-02-21 08:56:45 PM

chimp_ninja: is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty


Pretty sure that's a contradiction.
 
2013-02-21 09:11:49 PM

DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty

Pretty sure that's a contradiction.


I have it on good authority that he sometimes gives 109%.
 
2013-02-21 09:13:39 PM

chimp_ninja: DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty

Pretty sure that's a contradiction.

I have it on good authority that he sometimes gives 109%.


My.

God.
 
2013-02-21 09:35:28 PM
fark it. I'm graphing the Power Rankings for MLB. I just can't get stupid openoffice to give me 1-30 as a range instead of 0-35...
 
2013-02-21 09:36:33 PM

chimp_ninja: DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty

Pretty sure that's a contradiction.

I have it on good authority that he sometimes gives 109%.


Link

/As of yesterday, that episode is old enough to sit in Moe's, have a drink, and argue about Britain's greatest prime minister
 
2013-02-21 09:48:24 PM

Rex_Banner: chimp_ninja: DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty

Pretty sure that's a contradiction.

I have it on good authority that he sometimes gives 109%.

Link

/As of yesterday, that episode is old enough to sit in Moe's, have a drink, and argue about Britain's greatest prime minister


http://mlb.sbnation.com/2013/2/13/3982336/the-simpsons-and-moneyball
 
2013-02-21 10:17:55 PM
Excuse me, I was promised an article about good bench players, but instead got an article featuring Roger Bernadina, Steve Lombardozzi and Chad Tracy.

To be fair, Tyler Moore might be a pretty interesting guy. He's had great power in the minors, even if he was always old for his level; getting to hit against guys who are 2-3 years your junior has its advantages. Still, he showed some good pop in his short time in the majors last year, so there might be something there. And I suppose Lombardozzi's pretty young, so he's got time to improve his 'slap the ball in play somewhere and hope it bounces through the infield' game. But really, looking over the Nats' bench, all I can say is, "meh".
 
2013-02-22 12:02:36 AM

Slog: Excuse me, I was promised an article about good bench players, but instead got an article featuring Roger Bernadina, Steve Lombardozzi and Chad Tracy.

To be fair, Tyler Moore might be a pretty interesting guy. He's had great power in the minors, even if he was always old for his level; getting to hit against guys who are 2-3 years your junior has its advantages. Still, he showed some good pop in his short time in the majors last year, so there might be something there. And I suppose Lombardozzi's pretty young, so he's got time to improve his 'slap the ball in play somewhere and hope it bounces through the infield' game. But really, looking over the Nats' bench, all I can say is, "meh".


Lombardozzi was pretty damn clutch last year. For the period when Zimmerman was out and he was starting he had an average around .300 it declined at the end of the year but he showed a lot of potential. Also don't count out the Shark. He was another clutch pinch hitter that did won a few games for the Nats both offensively and defensivley. Also I think Chad Tracy led the majors in pinch hit RBI's for a majority of last season despite being out for a few months.
 
2013-02-22 07:51:08 AM

CipollinaFan: Slog: Excuse me, I was promised an article about good bench players, but instead got an article featuring Roger Bernadina, Steve Lombardozzi and Chad Tracy.

To be fair, Tyler Moore might be a pretty interesting guy. He's had great power in the minors, even if he was always old for his level; getting to hit against guys who are 2-3 years your junior has its advantages. Still, he showed some good pop in his short time in the majors last year, so there might be something there. And I suppose Lombardozzi's pretty young, so he's got time to improve his 'slap the ball in play somewhere and hope it bounces through the infield' game. But really, looking over the Nats' bench, all I can say is, "meh".

Lombardozzi was pretty damn clutch last year. For the period when Zimmerman was out and he was starting he had an average around .300 it declined at the end of the year but he showed a lot of potential. Also don't count out the Shark. He was another clutch pinch hitter that did won a few games for the Nats both offensively and defensivley. Also I think Chad Tracy led the majors in pinch hit RBI's for a majority of last season despite being out for a few months.


Hell yeah he was, and he looked sharp in the field too.

And while he isn't a power hitter, he can get enough on it to crank it out of the park still.  Hardly a "slap the ball in play" approach.

/Was at the game where he and Bryce Harper led off the game with back-to-back HR's last year, it was pretty damn fun to witness.
 
2013-02-22 10:40:10 AM

MugzyBrown: Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year


I love it when people from Philly talk trash about the Nats' attendance.
Historically, the Phillies don't have great attendance unless they are winning.

Year     Finish     Attendance Rank
1996       5           9 of 14
1997       5          14 of 14
1998       3          14 of 16
1999       3          12 of 16
2000       5          13 of 16
2001       2          14 of 16
2002       3          14 of 16
2003       3          10 of 16
 
2013-02-22 12:08:15 PM

DeWayne Mann: http://mlb.sbnation.com/2013/2/13/3982336/the-simpsons-and-moneyball


That reminded me of MoneyBART, a very good "new Simpsons" episode. It even had Mike Scioscia on again, and he joked about his tragic illness.

chimp_ninja: 3B Michael Young (36; is terrible at the game of baseball; gritty)


Interestingly, Mike Schmidt just said that Young "could retire tomorrow, and he would be a strong candidate for the Hall of Fame". He also made the ever-popular comparison to a certain future HOF shortstop, despite this shortstop being considerably better at baseball than Young.

At first I laughed. Then I looked up Young's HOF Monitor. It's 120 (likely HOFer is 100). That's when it hit me: In about 10 years, Michael Young might be the new Jack Morris, only with worse HOF credentials. That is going to suck
 
2013-02-22 12:57:45 PM

Rex_Banner: That reminded me of MoneyBART, a very good "new Simpsons" episode. It even had Mike Scioscia on again, and he joked about his tragic illness.


Yeah, if I remember, it had a Bill James cameo too. In fact, when I tried to google for that video, I kept getting stuff about that episode instead.

Rex_Banner: Then I looked up Young's HOF Monitor. It's 120 (likely HOFer is 100). That's when it hit me: In about 10 years, Michael Young might be the new Jack Morris, only with worse HOF credentials. That is going to suck


Yeah, I noticed that awhile ago. Luckily, I THINK HOF monitor has sort of fallen apart, at least for hitters. Here's a bunch of people with HOF Monitors above 100:

Miguel Tejada
Jeff Kent
David Ortiz
Omar Vizquel
Magglio Ordonez
Nomar Garciaparra
Carlos Delgado
Edgar Renteria
Jason Kendall

Does anyone think any of those guys will get in the Hall?
 
2013-02-22 01:17:10 PM

DeWayne Mann: Does anyone think any of those guys will get in the Hall?


Kent's got to have a chance, although the fact that he's a tremendous dick might hurt him with the voters.  The hall is pretty short on second basemen.  Nomar is one of those guys you'd get into a peak vs. longevity argument about.  When he was good he was really, really good but he fell apart pretty early.  Vizquel is the exact opposite.  I'm amazed that Jason Kendall is on that list.  It must give catchers a big boost.
 
2013-02-22 01:26:44 PM

you have pee hands: DeWayne Mann: Does anyone think any of those guys will get in the Hall?

Kent's got to have a chance, although the fact that he's a tremendous dick might hurt him with the voters.  The hall is pretty short on second basemen.  Nomar is one of those guys you'd get into a peak vs. longevity argument about.  When he was good he was really, really good but he fell apart pretty early.  Vizquel is the exact opposite.  I'm amazed that Jason Kendall is on that list.  It must give catchers a big boost.


Well, one site I really like for HOF stuff is hallofstats.com, and it even gives a peak v longevity breakdown for each player. So here's the hallofstat rating for each of those guys (100 is "Hall of Stats worthy", and so, presumably, HOF worthy as well), and how much of their value is longevity (with the remainder being peak):


Miguel Tejada - 79, 62% longevity
Jeff Kent - 106, 49%
David Ortiz - 67, 63%
Omar Vizquel - 66, 87%
Magglio Ordonez - 63, 68%
Nomar Garciaparra - 92, 42%
Carlos Delgado - 74, 61%
Edgar Renteria - 51, 84%
Jason Kendall - 83, 62%

Oh, and, for the record, Michael Young is so bad, he doesn't even get a Peak/Longevity breakdown (though if he did, it would be almost all longevity). His rating is 30.

So, yeah, it seems Kent & Garciaparra are the only guys worth looking at from that.
 
2013-02-22 02:06:46 PM

Rex_Banner: Interestingly, Mike Schmidt just said that Young "could retire tomorrow, and he would be a strong candidate for the Hall of Fame". He also made the ever-popular comparison to a certain future HOF shortstop, despite this shortstop being considerably better at baseball than Young.

At first I laughed. Then I looked up Young's HOF Monitor. It's 120 (likely HOFer is 100). That's when it hit me: In about 10 years, Michael Young might be the new Jack Morris, only with worse HOF credentials. That is going to suck


Mike Schmidt may be joining Joe Morgan as "All-time great ______ who is apparently unaware of what made him great."

Michael Young: Career .301/.347/.444 hitter with a 104 OPS+ and 22.1 bWAR over 1823 games.  Claim to fame is being able to play bad defense at all four infield positions, and occasionally DH.  Average speed (89 SB @ 75%).  Often described as "gritty" or "a gamer" by the media for no apparent reason.
Ray Durham: Career .277/.352/.436 hitter with a 104 OPS+ and 30.6 bWAR over 1975 games.  Played iffy defense, but more valuable than Young because it was exclusively at 2B.  Plus speed (273 SB @ 74%).  Not white often described as "gritty" or "a gamer" by the media for no apparent reason.

I wonder if Mike Schmidt thinks Ray Durham is a Hall of Famer.  Same bat, more longevity, more speed, better overall defender.
 
2013-02-22 02:24:00 PM

Slog: Excuse me, I was promised an article about good bench players, but instead got an article featuring Roger Bernadina, Steve Lombardozzi and Chad Tracy.


I won't argue about Chad Tracy.  He was bonkers in 2005 and then terrible since.  Anthony Rendon could take his lunch money right now (and probably would if an injury creeps up), but they don't want to interfere with Rendon's development by not getting him the regular play he'll see in AA/AAA in 2013.

Bernadina: It depends if you think 2010-2011 (weak bat, excellent PR, strong LF/RF defender who isn't embarrassing in CF) is the real Bernadina, or if you think he turned the corner last year and became a legitimate leadoff hitter (.372 OBP with excellent speed; good CF defensive metrics).  There's at least a good chance that the latter guy is for real-- he had a .373 OBP in AAA.  Maybe he just needed time to figure out MLB pitching.

Lombardozzi: 23 year old coming off his rookie season.  Strong defender at 2B who can play a good LF/RF in a pinch.  Adequate bat for a middle infielder.  Minor league career suggests he'll develop into a baserunning threat.  I don't want that guy starting, but that's a pretty good guy to have on your bench, and in the event of injury he projects to be a +1 or +2 WAR kind of guy.  That's a step up from the average "utility infielder".  He'd be a starter on a bad team.
 
2013-02-22 02:29:23 PM

chimp_ninja: I wonder if Mike Schmidt thinks Ray Durham is a Hall of Famer. Same bat, more longevity, more speed, better overall defender.


Yeah but he didn't hit .300 so he's crap.
 
2013-02-22 02:35:18 PM

DeWayne Mann: chimp_ninja: I wonder if Mike Schmidt thinks Ray Durham is a Hall of Famer. Same bat, more longevity, more speed, better overall defender.

Yeah but he didn't hit .300 so he's crap.


It would be funny if they could get Mike Schmidt to say that.
 
2013-02-22 04:17:39 PM

Wellon Dowd: MugzyBrown: Good luck, maybe some Nats fans will go to some games this year

I love it when people from Philly talk trash about the Nats' attendance.
Historically, the Phillies don't have great attendance unless they are winning.

Year     Finish     Attendance Rank
1996       5           9 of 14
1997       5          14 of 14
1998       3          14 of 16
1999       3          12 of 16
2000       5          13 of 16
2001       2          14 of 16
2002       3          14 of 16
2003       3          10 of 16


To be fair, if you had to watch crappy baseball you'd probably rather do it at from home/a bar/etc. than in this:

www.ballparksofbaseball.com
 
2013-02-22 06:19:35 PM

DeWayne Mann: Yeah, if I remember, it had a Bill James cameo too.


"I made baseball as much fun as doing your taxes!'

At it's peak, The Simpsons was excellent at satire in part because it lampooned each angle (there are other reasons as well, of course). MoneyBART fit that formula in my mind. It kinda had an "old school" Simpsons feel to it.

DeWayne Mann: Yeah, I noticed that awhile ago. Luckily, I THINK HOF monitor has sort of fallen apart, at least for hitters. Here's a bunch of people with HOF Monitors above 100


Some of those guys will make some noise. I think Vizquel gets in. Ortiz will have his backers (good career HR numbers and big playoff moments, especially during that year that shall not be named). He seems to get a pass on PED. The DH thing will kill him though. I feel like Young will turn into the small market poster boy (even though Dallas isn't a small market, but whatever). The "what if he played in NY?" stuff will carry him a biatchimp_ninja: Mike Schmidt may be joining Joe Morgan as "All-time great ______ who is apparently unaware of what made him great."

To be fair, I'm sure he was trying to hype up the 2013 Phillies a bit. But at the same time, you're right: Schmidt of all people should be able to see past batting average and understand that other things (things that Young was never able to do well) are also very important

/Young had 321 PA in Arlington last year and hit 1 HR there. ONE!
 
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