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(Popular Mechanics)   The final world on the whole Tesla vs New York Times comes from Popular Mechanics. In a nutshell: a pox on both of them (link fixed)   (popularmechanics.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Model S, actual malice  
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14619 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 12:47 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-20 02:24:25 PM  
So if Ford or GM claimed the NYT was conspiring against them and the gas mileage of thier cars and had THIER own data from themselves as thier supposed proof how many of you would believe Ford or GM over the NYT?
 
2013-02-20 02:25:15 PM  

JohnBigBootay: All of this is solved with just a few more charging stations. I don't have an electric car, but I'd like to have one. Living five minutes from downtown seattle if I sit here and think for a while it seems to me that a simple 100 mile range would take care of me literally 99% of the time. This year for example I've driven out of the city over fifty miles exactly once. Which makes me think it might be worth it to skip the weekly trip to the gas station ten or twelve times, then spring for a rental car if I want to take a worry free road trip over a long distance.


Moving goal posts?  Where did I ever say the Tesla wasn't a fine option for city driving?  I pointed out the issue is that Tesla seems to be billing the Model S as a road trip capable car and it had issues on a NYC to Boston road trip, but even you admit the need to rent a gas powered car for road trips.

The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute.  The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger.  You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.
 
2013-02-20 02:25:17 PM  
I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article. They got caught red-handed by the data logger and all the crackpot screeching in the world can't change that simple fact. I hope Tesla sues their a**es off because I can almost guarantee you the NYT will use the old "it's entertainment, not journalism" argument they so often accuse OMG FAUX NEWS! of, as well as the defense used by Top Gear. That would pretty much just be the icing on the cake for these crooks.

And on another point, years ago during the New York Times / Jayson Blair scandal, Jessica Lynch's parents were asked why they didn't call out Blair for completely fabricating his article. They said something like they just assumed everyone knew not to believe anything in the New York Times or the mainstream media, that it was all sensationalist garbage. It's pretty telling that these rural folks from West Virginia had so much more media savvy and sophistication than the urban hipster liberals here on fark defending the Times for this article.
 
2013-02-20 02:29:41 PM  
This is why nobody likes electric cars.
 
2013-02-20 02:33:46 PM  

JohnBigBootay: All of this is solved with just a few more charging stations. I don't have an electric car, but I'd like to have one. Living five minutes from downtown seattle if I sit here and think for a while it seems to me that a simple 100 mile range would take care of me literally 99% of the time. This year for example I've driven out of the city over fifty miles exactly once. Which makes me think it might be worth it to skip the weekly trip to the gas station ten or twelve times, then spring for a rental car if I want to take a worry free road trip over a long distance.


I was just eyeballing the current state of "30-minute" fast chargers in the Pacific NW, and was actually amazed to see that there are shiat ton of them currently operating along WA and OR highways. 14 in WA and 23 in OR with another 11 to come online in a few months. Looks to be about every 50 miles or so. Link

Plus the fact that the Seattle metro area now has 2,000 (half of which are public) level II chargers currently in place.

ha-ha-guy: The refinements come in the form of the the management software used by Toyota. The Rav4 has dual mode features based on lessons Toyota learned from their first generation one (the one Chevron sued over) and the Prius family of vehicles.


This I could see. Not unlike the 'Eco' mode in the Leaf which gives about 20% more distance by ramping down output of other devices onboard and remapping throttle and regenerative braking response.

Theaetetus: Mr. "Going faster wouldn't affect the mileage", meet Mr. "It's not normal driving, and the track mileage is a lot less."


My Honda 919 motorcycle. On the highway = 46mpg. On the racetrack = 12mpg. I wonder why anyone would think electric cars would be any different.
 
2013-02-20 02:33:57 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article.


What world do you live in where this is happening?  It's like you've not read any of the previous 3 threads on this reporters idiocy.
 
2013-02-20 02:35:48 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Moving goal posts? Where did I ever say the Tesla wasn't a fine option for city driving? I pointed out the issue is that Tesla seems to be billing the Model S as a road trip capable car and it had issues on a NYC to Boston road trip, but even you admit the need to rent a gas powered car for road trips.

The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


I was neither moving the goal posts, trying to refute anything you said, or trying to push electric cars as a good choice for road trips. Just musing on the fact that electric would work for me. Not all of us are here to argue.
 
2013-02-20 02:35:56 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


They will get it down to 30 minutes soon (by essentially doubling the voltage) getting it much lower than that becomes seriously dangerous. I think 30 minutes is reasonable, you can have a quick lunch while it refills, you'll see more charging stations at fast food outlets as time goes on. An hour though, yes is way too long.
 
2013-02-20 02:36:09 PM  
I won't even consider buying a Tesla until the big (DeLorean inspired) marketing campaign kicks off:

                                                         "Buy the car, the coke is on us!"
 
2013-02-20 02:36:39 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article. They got caught red-handed by the data logger and all the crackpot screeching in the world can't change that simple fact. I hope Tesla sues their a**es off because I can almost guarantee you the NYT will use the old "it's entertainment, not journalism" argument they so often accuse OMG FAUX NEWS! of, as well as the defense used by Top Gear. That would pretty much just be the icing on the cake for these crooks.

And on another point, years ago during the New York Times / Jayson Blair scandal, Jessica Lynch's parents were asked why they didn't call out Blair for completely fabricating his article. They said something like they just assumed everyone knew not to believe anything in the New York Times or the mainstream media, that it was all sensationalist garbage. It's pretty telling that these rural folks from West Virginia had so much more media savvy and sophistication than the urban hipster liberals here on fark defending the Times for this article.


That was retarded and you should feel retarded.
 
2013-02-20 02:37:52 PM  

MrSteve007: I was just eyeballing the current state of "30-minute" fast chargers in the Pacific NW, and was actually amazed to see that there are shiat ton of them currently operating along WA and OR highways. 14 in WA and 23 in OR with another 11 to come online in a few months. Looks to be about every 50 miles or so


Yeah. I looked up the new electric - honda fit I think it was - as a flex car for work, but they aren't doing them in our zip code. Which surprised me because I see electric charging stations all over the place up here.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:00 PM  

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: SkunkWerks: Primitive Screwhead: How about comfortably numb?

You are receding.  A distant ship.  Smoke on the horizon.

You are only coming through in waves. Your lips move, but I can't hear what you're saying.


 Keep it up and Mr. Waters will see you in court.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:46 PM  

reductive: Fascinating how nobody but Broder talks about the part where Broder spoke directly with managers and engineers half a dozen times over two days. If Tesla's own people advised Broder to do what he did, can we really attribute his behavior to stupidity? It's not clear whether Broder is misrepresenting what his contacts at Tesla were telling him, because Musk and the press simply ignore this point.


Given that Broder has already been caught misreporting facts, I'm not sure I'm that eager to extend the benefit of the doubt to him. Does the man have any actual evidence that these conversations took place and that the content of the conversations were as he reports because, otherwise, I'm not sure I'm willing to consider him credible.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:52 PM  
It appears that Popular Mechanics has pulled the article from their online archives. Apparently, too many Farkers were reading it...
 
2013-02-20 02:44:36 PM  

Oldiron_79: So if Ford or GM claimed the NYT was conspiring against them and the gas mileage of thier cars and had THIER own data from themselves as thier supposed proof how many of you would believe Ford or GM over the NYT?


If the data was this compelling, I would be inclined to.

So, what's your insinuation? That because we're all libby, lib, libs, the only reason that we're siding with Tesla is because Tesla isn't The Man, or something?
 
2013-02-20 02:45:32 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.

Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.

Tens of thousands of Americans go on road-trips with motorcycles, which require refueling stops every 100 to 150 miles or so, depending on how much they trust their reserve tank. Typically, they'll top off the tank (which honestly takes about 3-4 minutes when you include taking gear off, gassing up, and paying for fuel). Then get off the bike and stretch a bit, and get some snacks from the quick-mart (about 5-10 minutes or so), then take a piss (another 2-3 minutes). At this point, you're looking at a solid 20 minutes to get gas, piss and eat.

A fast charger tops off a Leaf in 22-25 minutes, and considering it costs ~$2 instead of $18 in my motorcycle, I'd be more than happy to wait an extra 5 minutes during my road-trip breaks to refuel for almost 1/10th the cost. If I want to stick to the scenic by-ways on my road trips (with a 55mph speed limit), taking a 25 minute break for every 2 hours of driving isn't that unreasonable. Shiat, I already do that on my motorcycle road trips.
 
2013-02-20 02:46:57 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: So, what's your insinuation? That because we're all libby, lib, libs, the only reason that we're siding with Tesla is because Tesla isn't The Man, or something?


Sounds about right.
 
2013-02-20 02:47:55 PM  

MrSteve007: ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.

If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.

Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.

Tens of thousands of Americans go on road-trips with motorcycles, which require refueling stops every 100 to 150 miles or so, depending on how much they trust their reserve tank. Typically, they'll top off the tank (which honestly takes about 3-4 minutes when you include taking gear off, gassing up, and paying for fuel). Then get off the bike and stretch a bit, and get some snacks from the quick-mart (about 5-10 minutes or so), then take a piss (another 2-3 minutes). At this point, you're looking at a solid 20 minutes to get gas, piss and eat.

A fast charger tops off a Leaf in 22-25 minutes, and considering it costs ~$2 instead of $18 in my motorcycle, I'd be more than happy to wait an extra 5 minutes during my road-trip breaks to refuel for almost 1/10th the cost. If I want to stick to the scenic by-ways on my road trips (with a 55mph speed limit), taking a 25 minute break for every 2 hours of driving isn't that unreasonable. Shiat, I already do that on my motorcycle road trips.


So you are saying they are about as partical for long trips as motorcycles, which are not practical at all
 
2013-02-20 02:55:06 PM  

Lost Thought 00: So you are saying they are about as partical for long trips as motorcycles, which are not practical at all


Heh, tell that to yourself the next time you're passed by a group of bikers this summer on the interstate. With exception to long-haul truckers, most of the long distance travelers I see in rural areas like Montana and Wyoming are cruiser bikers on Goldwings or Harley cruisers - or the opposite end of the spectrum, RV's.

Then there's me, doing 900 miles days on a "naked" bike and some cloth saddlebags and no windscreen.
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-02-20 03:04:13 PM  

MrSteve007: Heh, tell that to yourself the next time you're passed by a group of bikers this summer on the interstate. With exception to long-haul truckers, most of the long distance travelers I see in rural areas like Montana and Wyoming are cruiser bikers on Goldwings or Harley cruisers - or the opposite end of the spectrum, RV's.

Then there's me, doing 900 miles days on a "naked" bike and some cloth saddlebags and no windscreen.


Motorcycles are a hobby, not a primary means of transportation for most people.
 
2013-02-20 03:58:14 PM  

jedikinkoid: I would be a little more specific, though: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity and confirmation bias." I don't think he intentionally sabotaged the test, but I do think he found what he was looking for. Humans are funny that way... we can find just about anything (reasons to be offended, rationalizations, affirmations, etc) when we look hard enough.


My brother is retarded. I'm dead serious. One of the things about retarded people is most of them have all sorts of rigid picky likes and dislikes.  My brother hates gas stoves.  He threw a fit when my parents bought one. A couple years later the igniter on the left front burner stopped working very well.  My brother always used it, just to make a point.  I still can hear *click click click click click click* it doesn't work! click click click click click click foom!*

I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does.  But whatever. Broder's a retard.  I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.
 
2013-02-20 04:03:58 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: OMG !  as the owner of an alternative fuel vehicle, you might have to plan your trip more carefully.

Golly, just like a diesel owner used to do, but who cares about that.


Correction: As the owner of a $100k 400hp luxury car, you may have to drive at 54mph on the freeway and leave the heat off in 30 degree weather. And if you're on a trip, and the weather is cold, you really should find a way to plug it in overnight.

Thats a bit more than "know where you can get fuel".
 
2013-02-20 04:08:43 PM  
Can't we all just get along?
 
2013-02-20 04:13:08 PM  

gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.


Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!
 
2013-02-20 04:13:30 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Motorcycles are a hobby, not a primary means of transportation for most people.


Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.
 
2013-02-20 04:24:41 PM  

oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!


and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?
 
2013-02-20 04:24:47 PM  

MrSteve007: Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.


You make way too much sense and are far too polite. So you'll just be shouted down. It's just how americans think (and I am one) - they buy things based on how they use them 5% of the time rather than the 95% of the time.
 
2013-02-20 04:25:13 PM  

cHico11: "Decisions he made at a crucial juncture-when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight-were certainly instrumental in this saga's high-drama ending," she writes.

Norwich?  If you plan on stopping in Norwich, CT on a trip from Washington DC to Milford, CT, you're going just a little bit out of the way.  Just a little.


Huh.  Cute, even if I'd imagine they meant that hoity-toity hell hole that is Norwalk.
 
2013-02-20 04:25:54 PM  

Master Sphincter: So any company can use any name without permission? Or is Tesla's estate allowing this?

/might change last name to Tesla


I doubt there is an estate. Tesla died deeply in debt from his wireless power transmission attempts.
 
2013-02-20 04:40:07 PM  
ha-ha-guy:
Part of it makes me think Musk is selling snake oil.  For example the Roadster's 200 mile claim was for normal driving, despite Tesla doing a lot to sell the car as a track car (where it only gets 50 to 60 miles).  It makes me wonder what assumptions Tesla is making regarding the sedan's driving conditions and how disingenuous they might be.

As opposed to traditional auto-makers building ICE vehicles?  I'm sure those stats on the window stickers are easily attainable by normal every day driving habits.
 
2013-02-20 04:46:58 PM  

Carth: oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!

and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?


I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing".  It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.

And, no, nobody's going to hope behind the wheel. That's why the technology is NOT READY.
 
2013-02-20 04:49:23 PM  

Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.


For everyone who accuses the NY Times reporter of lying, simply explain to me one thing: to what end?  He's previously reviewed the Tesla and given it favorable reviews and he had nice things to say about the West coast super-charger station network (the east Coast version of which he was testing, NOT the car)

so this guy doesn't seem to have a secret agenda against Tesla or electric cars in general, so i repeat, why risk his career lying about this?

OTOH Elon Musk's response tells me his company is in VERY deep trouble and he's hiding it.  His paranoid action in having the data recorder turned on because he ASSUMED the reporter would lie, and his extremely defensive public data dump tells me he's really worried about any negative pub, which hints that's going to need to seek a new round of funding from investors soon
 
2013-02-20 04:50:34 PM  

oh_please: heel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?

I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing". It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.


There is only one direction to follow not 15. Charge fully if you are going to take a long trip. Simple. Keep repeating the NOT READY DERP to keep yourself entertained.
 
2013-02-20 04:53:16 PM  

oh_please: Carth: oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!

and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?

I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing".  It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.

And, no, nobody's going to hope behind the wheel. That's why the technology is NOT READY.


Except Musk, or anyone else at Tesla, never said that in any of the articles I've seen. Do you have a link with that quote about or are you just making up things to prove a point you've already decided.

Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.
 
2013-02-20 04:58:00 PM  

MrSteve007: If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.


10 gpm = 10 gallons in the car in one minute and all you have to do is stand there hold the pump handle.  Plug into the supercharger, wait a moment, and you've gained 5 miles worth of charge.  The overhead is the same, pull in, arrange payment, insert something into the car.  After that the gas pump wins.

Where did I ever claim the entire gas stop was 1 minute?  If you read up thread I provided a floor of 10 minutes for the total stop.  Although if you hit a service plaza with a good card reader and modern pumps you can do 3 minutes.  That is about what you're supposed average if you're doing a Cannonball.
 
2013-02-20 04:58:38 PM  

Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.


That's the thing, like how "bird" is the word for radio slogans for cheap wine turned into surf rock. "lying" is the word for libel lawyers, it's been proven definitively that Broder was sloppy, whether he was actually lied is much more difficult to prove which sets them up for a lawsuit. That's why 'lying' is no longer a part of the journalist's dictionary, they'll say anything but the L word
 
2013-02-20 04:59:52 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.


By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.
 
2013-02-20 05:02:20 PM  
In this thread I've learned that libby lib libtards are apparently bad because they're siding with the reporter. Also those damnable libby lib libtards are bad because they're siding with Tesla.

Only could what passes today for "conservative" thought create quantum super-positions, where imaginary opponents are responsible for being wrong by being for and against something at the same time.

So glad I quit the republican party last year, and dissapointed I didn't do it sooner.
 
2013-02-20 05:05:23 PM  

Carth: Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.


The charger issues and the like are definitely the journalist's fault (well maybe not the 90% one depending on how clear the battery full indicator is, specifically a graphic versus a number).  What stuck out in Musk's response were his issues with the fact the journalist varied the speed and set the climate control to 74.  My wife tends to keep her side of the car at 73 and on I-75 you can hit 80 mph easily while doing the flow of traffic and suddenly be down to 60 when you run into truck traffic.  Neither action by the journalist seems to be abnormal driving or something the consumer doesn't expect their car to do.

The fact Musk had an issue with the speed and the climate seems to imply that "max range mode" is bordering on "limp mode" for highway driving.  I just want to see someone else get a Tesla, take it out on the highway and provide what you have to so the car makes it 150 miles.  After that it should be clear if the Tesla can do what Musk says it can or if you're limping along in the far right lane with your flashers on.
 
2013-02-20 05:06:26 PM  

BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?



Hey you leave Moller out of this pal.

He's busy with things... important things!


/like looking for more gullible investors...
 
2013-02-20 05:06:49 PM  

JohnBigBootay: MrSteve007: Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.

You make way too much sense and are far too polite. So you'll just be shouted down. It's just how americans think (and I am one) - they buy things based on how they use them 5% of the time rather than the 95% of the time.



Lease a Nissan Leaf like I do.  $130-ish a month for three years, then turn it in and don't get stuck with old technology.  Carpool lane access for fast commute.  No gas, oil, or plugs (still has coolant, and an air filter, but neither should need to be touched for the three years you'd have it.)
 
2013-02-20 05:07:01 PM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.


Yup, he who can compress the hydrogen will be king of the energy industry.
 
2013-02-20 05:08:37 PM  

oh_please: being able to refuel on a whim.


As the owner of an electric vehicle with a far shorter range than a Tesla, I can assure you that it is much nicer to have a "full tank" every morning than to be able to refuel quickly, but have to do it at a gas station.

I would much rather have to take a longer break in the middle of my long distance drive that I might take once or twice a year than to have to stop at the gas station twice a week for 5 minutes.

/Always hated stopping for gas.
//Have had basically no range anxiety with my electric car.
 
2013-02-20 05:09:56 PM  

BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?


Here you go

Will run you around 300K though, once production starts.
 
2013-02-20 05:10:40 PM  

Magorn: Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.

For everyone who accuses the NY Times reporter of lying, simply explain to me one thing: to what end?  He's previously reviewed the Tesla and given it favorable reviews and he had nice things to say about the West coast super-charger station network (the east Coast version of which he was testing, NOT the car)

so this guy doesn't seem to have a secret agenda against Tesla or electric cars in general, so i repeat, why risk his career lying about this?

OTOH Elon Musk's response tells me his company is in VERY deep trouble and he's hiding it.  His paranoid action in having the data recorder turned on because he ASSUMED the reporter would lie, and his extremely defensive public data dump tells me he's really worried about any negative pub, which hints that's going to need to seek a new round of funding from investors soon


Given how Top Gear did a hit piece on Tesla and Telsa couldn't do jack about it, it's less paranoia than proper precaution. Of course he'd be worried about negative publicity, The Simpsons did more to kill Nuclear energy in America than Three Mile ever could, if the media uses Electric Cars similarly, it will kill the entire concept all together
 
2013-02-20 05:15:53 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.

Yup, he who can compress the hydrogen will be king of the energy industry.


Yea, that's part of the equation that gets ignored for liquid natural gas (LNG) also - the energy to liquify it, and what to do with all the waste heat that comes out of it when you condense it.
 
2013-02-20 05:15:59 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Carth: Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.

The charger issues and the like are definitely the journalist's fault (well maybe not the 90% one depending on how clear the battery full indicator is, specifically a graphic versus a number).  What stuck out in Musk's response were his issues with the fact the journalist varied the speed and set the climate control to 74.  My wife tends to keep her side of the car at 73 and on I-75 you can hit 80 mph easily while doing the flow of traffic and suddenly be down to 60 when you run into truck traffic.  Neither action by the journalist seems to be abnormal driving or something the consumer doesn't expect their car to do.

The fact Musk had an issue with the speed and the climate seems to imply that "max range mode" is bordering on "limp mode" for highway driving.  I just want to see someone else get a Tesla, take it out on the highway and provide what you have to so the car makes it 150 miles.  After that it should be clear if the Tesla can do what Musk says it can or if you're limping along in the far right lane with your flashers on.


I agree with you. Did you read the reports from CNN and the 9 other Tesla drivers last week who did the same trip ? Most of them kept their cars between 72-76 degrees, had their speed vary between 60-75 and they all made it. The only significant differences were they enable  range mode and it was 10 degrees warmer during their overnight stay (CNN didn't stop overnight but the other drivers did).

The only difference between  'range mode' and 'standard mode" is that in range you can charge the battery 100%, vs 90% in standard and the battery can completely discharge. This is why Musk was saying the car still had charge when Broder called the flat bed but he was saying it wouldn't drive. At least that is how the difference was explained to me when I went for a test drive.

/no i didn't buy it
 
2013-02-20 05:17:32 PM  

Rixel: BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?

Here you go

Will run you around 300K though, once production starts.


It also requires a pilots license thank god.
 
2013-02-20 05:18:59 PM  
This Popular Mechanics article is trying to whitewash NY Times' smear campaign.

John Broder: Tesla is crap
Elon Musk: You're lying, I can prove it.
John Broder: Oh yeah? Where's the proof?
Elon Musk: I've logged your test. It shows you're lying.
John Broder: *ghasp* (hides)
Margaret Sullivan: Hey, John Broder didn't actually lied...  He just...  He...  Hey, look over there! Chewbacca!
Steve Rousseau: Yes, it's Chewbacca.  It doesn't make sense.  Therefore, there is no clear winner.  Let's just forget everything.  These aren't the logs you are looking for...  And nevermind CNN did the same test and demonstrated Broder was full of shiat.  Hey, Squirrel!
 
2013-02-20 05:40:52 PM  
I like how PM reports that everyone else that tried this test made it from A to B without any problems...but then says it's part Tesla's fault because the reporter was too dumb to listen to their instructions.  Yes, that makes perfect sense.

/reporter just wanted sensational article, imo
 
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