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(Popular Mechanics)   The final world on the whole Tesla vs New York Times comes from Popular Mechanics. In a nutshell: a pox on both of them (link fixed)   (popularmechanics.com ) divider line
    More: Followup, Model S, actual malice  
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14626 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 12:47 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



181 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-02-20 11:51:47 AM  
Broder: The Model S sucks! It ran out of electricity!
Tesla: That's because you drove too fast, took long detours, and drove in circles in a parking lot. Here's the data.
Broder: You didn't share that data with me when I wrote the article, so therefore it doesn't count.
Sullivan: That sounds reasonable. He was clearly writing in good faith. Also, I'm not going to respond to any of the specific complaints because I don't think that's useful.
Popular Mechanics: That sounds reasonable. Sullivan was clearly writing in good faith. Both sides are bad: Broder for being sloppy, and Tesla for claiming he did it intentionally rather than just being lazy, which is equally bad. Also, I'm not going to respond to any of the specific complaints because I don't think that's useful.

Journalists circling the wagons?
 
2013-02-20 12:02:54 PM  
plato.stanford.edu
 
2013-02-20 12:05:44 PM  
"Girls...Girls. You're BOTH ugly."
 
2013-02-20 12:23:55 PM  
Oh my God! It's the final world!

THE FINAL WORLD!

THE CELESTIAL WALLS ARE CLOSING IN

DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED
 
2013-02-20 12:40:25 PM  

Theaetetus: Journalists circling the wagons?


I don't see why Popular Mechanics wouldn't throw the New York Times under the bus? Popular Mechanics should be the publication that you turn to for stuff like this not the New York Times. If I was publishing PM you can bet I would mention that a few times in the article.
 
2013-02-20 12:51:14 PM  
There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.
 
2013-02-20 12:51:56 PM  
and holy shiat did i fark up the last part of that sentence or what...
 
2013-02-20 12:52:38 PM  
FTA: ...it isn't as comfortably mindless as a road trip in an average car.

Was anyone honestly disputing this?

If you want a mindless road-trip, don't drive an experimental car, maybe?
 
2013-02-20 12:54:22 PM  
Guys, we can't talk about this anymore. They had the final word.
 
2013-02-20 12:55:09 PM  
This whole thing has shown has scared some journalists are of facts and data and how quickly they will change their story when presented with them after their article is published.
 
2013-02-20 12:55:15 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Guys, we can't talk about this anymore. They had the final word.


You can't tell me what I can't do.  I'm out cold.
 
2013-02-20 12:55:40 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Guys, we can't talk about this anymore. They had the final word

WORLD.
 
2013-02-20 12:56:32 PM  

SkunkWerks: FTA: ...it isn't as comfortably mindless as a road trip in an average car.

Was anyone honestly disputing this?

If you want a mindless road-trip, don't drive an experimental car, maybe?


Maybe it shows my income level, but I don't think I'd ever have a mindless road trip in a $100k car. I've driven a Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead and a couple of supercharged Range Rovers that were worth over $100k and neither of them were driven "comfortably mindless".
 
2013-02-20 12:56:53 PM  
One of the commenters in the article nailed it: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity."

I would be a little more specific, though: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity and confirmation bias." I don't think he intentionally sabotaged the test, but I do think he found what he was looking for. Humans are funny that way... we can find just about anything (reasons to be offended, rationalizations, affirmations, etc) when we look hard enough.
 
2013-02-20 12:57:22 PM  
Is this the FINAL final word?
 
2013-02-20 12:57:29 PM  

Theaetetus: Broder: The Model S sucks! It ran out of electricity!
Tesla: That's because you drove too fast, took long detours, and drove in circles in a parking lot. Here's the data.


... showing that he went slightly faster than he claimed to have set the cruise control, took a short detour through Manhattan, which they knew about in advance and which their customer support person recommended, and drove once round a parking place to get to the supercharger point.
 
2013-02-20 12:58:24 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Theaetetus: Journalists circling the wagons?

I don't see why Popular Mechanics wouldn't throw the New York Times under the bus? Popular Mechanics should be the publication that you turn to for stuff like this not the New York Times. If I was publishing PM you can bet I would mention that a few times in the article.


If Popular Mechanics is so dependable, what is this "Telsa" car they refer to several times?
 
2013-02-20 12:59:01 PM  
The Tesla is a great car as long as you do this, this, this and this, but don't do that, that, that and that.
 
2013-02-20 01:01:20 PM  
I think this fight is just starting:
a.tgcdn.net
 
2013-02-20 01:01:26 PM  
Pox?  What kind of british word is that?
 
2013-02-20 01:01:44 PM  

MadMattressMack: SkunkWerks: FTA: ...it isn't as comfortably mindless as a road trip in an average car.

Was anyone honestly disputing this?

If you want a mindless road-trip, don't drive an experimental car, maybe?

Maybe it shows my income level, but I don't think I'd ever have a mindless road trip in a $100k car. I've driven a Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead and a couple of supercharged Range Rovers that were worth over $100k and neither of them were driven "comfortably mindless".


How about comfortably numb?
 
2013-02-20 01:02:15 PM  
So any company can use any name without permission? Or is Tesla's estate allowing this?

/might change last name to Tesla
 
2013-02-20 01:03:09 PM  

cowtipn: Is this the FINAL final word?



No, the final world.  There are no more.  Enjoy this one.  We cannot have another.
 
2013-02-20 01:04:56 PM  
They are quite sharp looking and would love to have their sports model, but I forget the name, but it reminded me of a Lotus Esprit.  I read an article that said the could get up to 300 miles without a charge, and this was 2 years ago.  I guess they are trying to surpass this MPC (miles per charge?) that limited them a couple years ago.  First nice looking car that runs on batteries IMO.
 
2013-02-20 01:06:01 PM  
So the "final word" is to spend five paragraphs summarizing what happened, and then write one paragraph whose thesis is, "There's no clear 'winner' in this debacle."

Thanks, Popular Mechanics!
 
2013-02-20 01:06:24 PM  
OMG !  as the owner of an alternative fuel vehicle, you might have to plan your trip more carefully.

Golly, just like a diesel owner used to do, but who cares about that.
 
2013-02-20 01:06:52 PM  

Primitive Screwhead: How about comfortably numb?


You are receding.  A distant ship.  Smoke on the horizon.
 
2013-02-20 01:08:34 PM  
I'd imagine Tesla has the same problem a lot of other manufacturers have, the battery supplier can provide you with some batteries for prototypes that are defect free.  The day you order in bulk, the defect rate goes through the roof.  We saw it, order enough for 10 test mules?  No problem.  Want 100?  Suddenly the lead time increases by a significant amount.  Want a test fleet?  Welcome to defect central and the occasional exploding battery.  These defects might explain while some of the issues occurred.   I'm sure Tesla has prototypes that can back up those claims, but those may be the ones made back when Tesla was buying smaller batches of batteries and not stressing their supplier's abilities.

The big issue is of course this Tesla is supposed to be a sedan and move more in the direction of transportation appliance.  For the Roadster, a car you buy for fun and its performance, the consumer is more likely to tolerate the car having odd little issues here and there as long as it goes fast and corners well.  If the fact your cruise control and climate settings can make enough of an impact the CEO calls your test fake, you're not in transportation appliance territory yet.  Which is fine, just stop trying to market it as such.

Tesla seems to have the same problem with the Roadster, they had a nasty little spat with Top Gear after Clarkson broke the car after 55 miles.

Tesla has filed libel charges against Top Gear multiple times and lost them all:
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2012/02/tesla-vs-top-gear/

Part of it makes me think Musk is selling snake oil.  For example the Roadster's 200 mile claim was for normal driving, despite Tesla doing a lot to sell the car as a track car (where it only gets 50 to 60 miles).  It makes me wonder what assumptions Tesla is making regarding the sedan's driving conditions and how disingenuous they might be.
 
2013-02-20 01:09:05 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: Golly, just like a diesel owner used to do


Recently became a diesel owner...  It's not so bad.  Just need to do a bit more thinking about it.

And of course it wouldn't hurt if we weren't charging ridiculous amounts for it here in the states.  I still make it up in mileage, and possibly wear and tear, but really?  It's a byproduct of refining gasoline.  Leftovers.

Really?
 
2013-02-20 01:09:37 PM  
Maybe no one "won", but the Times reporter is clearly a dbag troll.
 
2013-02-20 01:09:51 PM  

Master Sphincter: So any company can use any name without permission? Or is Tesla's estate allowing this?

/might change last name to Tesla


The man was described as chaste. I don't think there is an estate.
 
2013-02-20 01:09:54 PM  
The final world on the whole Tesla vs New York Times comes from Popular Mechanics. In a nutshell: a pox on both of them

strangetriumph.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-20 01:11:32 PM  
In other words, the car works fairly well despite the hit-job in the NY Times, but early adopters of the brand new model that's built on newer technology may experience some issues therefore Both Sides Are Bad.

That's some might fine hemmin' and hawin', Popular Mechanics.
 
2013-02-20 01:12:24 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Theaetetus: Journalists circling the wagons?

I don't see why Popular Mechanics wouldn't throw the New York Times under the bus? Popular Mechanics should be the publication that you turn to for stuff like this not the New York Times. If I was publishing PM you can bet I would mention that a few times in the article.


The NYT is involved because the whole electric car thing is political. With one side determined to make sure that it works and the another equally determined that it won't -relativity be damned.

Meanwhile in Japan:

Are electric cars running out of juice again?
"Recent moves by Japan's two largest automakers suggest that the electric car, after more than 100 years of development and several brief revivals, still is not ready for prime time - and may never be.

In the meantime, the attention of automotive executives in Asia, Europe and North America is beginning to swing toward an unusual but promising new alternate power source: hydrogen."

"Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, the "father of the Prius" who helped put hybrids on the map, said he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars.

"Because of its shortcomings - driving range, cost and recharging time - the electric vehicle is not a viable replacement for most conventional cars," said Uchiyamada. "We need something entirely new."
 
2013-02-20 01:12:44 PM  

orbister: Theaetetus: Broder: The Model S sucks! It ran out of electricity!
Tesla: That's because you drove too fast, took long detours, and drove in circles in a parking lot. Here's the data.

... showing that he went slightly faster than he claimed to have set the cruise control


Yeah, it was only between 11 and 27 miles faster. No way that has an effect on a car's efficiency. Good call.
 
2013-02-20 01:12:44 PM  
If I have to call a tech support line for advise on how to get somewhere and may have software revisions pushed to the car...the car is a failure
 
2013-02-20 01:13:20 PM  
The final words are two:  Range Anxiety.
 
2013-02-20 01:15:20 PM  

SkunkWerks: Nutsac_Jim: Golly, just like a diesel owner used to do

Recently became a diesel owner...  It's not so bad.  Just need to do a bit more thinking about it.

And of course it wouldn't hurt if we weren't charging ridiculous amounts for it here in the states.  I still make it up in mileage, and possibly wear and tear, but really?  It's a byproduct of refining gasoline.  Leftovers.

Really?


I think with most people having an iphone or droid, the days of worrying are gone.  Its pretty easy to look at the map of diesel stations and pick one on your route.

I imagine the Tesla comes with that feature built in.
 
2013-02-20 01:18:12 PM  

hasty ambush: "Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, the "father of the Prius" who helped put hybrids on the map, said he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars.


Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

That said there are still storage and refueling issues with hydrogen.  At least with electric you can just plug into a wall and wait at the very worst.  With hydrogen, some municipalities have hydrogen stations for their fleet vehicles, but overall it is rare.

Someone is going to have to demonstrate methanol conversion (or something else) on an industrial viable scale and come up with a credible plan for how you're going to be able to refuel the sucker.
 
2013-02-20 01:18:14 PM  
The final words are: Mortal Kombat!
 
2013-02-20 01:18:17 PM  

Primitive Screwhead: MadMattressMack: SkunkWerks: FTA: ...it isn't as comfortably mindless as a road trip in an average car.

Was anyone honestly disputing this?

If you want a mindless road-trip, don't drive an experimental car, maybe?

Maybe it shows my income level, but I don't think I'd ever have a mindless road trip in a $100k car. I've driven a Rolls Royce Phantom Drophead and a couple of supercharged Range Rovers that were worth over $100k and neither of them were driven "comfortably mindless".

How about comfortably numb?


None of them came equipped with a car bar. :(
 
2013-02-20 01:18:30 PM  
If conservatives are so gung ho about encouraging business why do they crap all over emerging tech that would create new business opportunities?
 
2013-02-20 01:19:23 PM  

threadjackistan: Master Sphincter: So any company can use any name without permission? Or is Tesla's estate allowing this?

/might change last name to Tesla

The man was described as chaste. I don't think there is an estate.

i.qkme.me
 
2013-02-20 01:19:44 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: Its pretty easy to look at the map of diesel stations and pick one on your route.


Or if not that, highways signs usually indicate whether or not a given station carries diesel.

I'd say a fair part of the reason you can't "take a mindless roadtrip" in the car (aside from the fact that it is, after all, an experimental car) is lack of infrastructure.  Gasoline cars have plenty of this to support them.  If there were as many charging stations along the coast for the Tesla, well, there you go.

Incidentally, I know where the charging station in Norwich, CT is.  If I recall correctly a Furniture Store mogul invested in it.
 
2013-02-20 01:20:29 PM  
Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?
 
2013-02-20 01:21:26 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: The Tesla is a great car as long as you do this, this, this and this, but don't do that, that, that and that.


Isn't that the case with all cars? We've just had a 100 years to get used to and adapt to the thats of gas powered engines.

/you mean I have to add oil AND gas to this thing?
 
2013-02-20 01:21:29 PM  
"Decisions he made at a crucial juncture-when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight-were certainly instrumental in this saga's high-drama ending," she writes.

Norwich?  If you plan on stopping in Norwich, CT on a trip from Washington DC to Milford, CT, you're going just a little bit out of the way.  Just a little.
 
2013-02-20 01:24:18 PM  
I think this means it's like a video game and the final world is the one where Popular Mechanics judges the outcome.
 
2013-02-20 01:25:01 PM  
Fascinating how nobody but Broder talks about the part where Broder spoke directly with managers and engineers half a dozen times over two days. If Tesla's own people advised Broder to do what he did, can we really attribute his behavior to stupidity? It's not clear whether Broder is misrepresenting what his contacts at Tesla were telling him, because Musk and the press simply ignore this point.

Seems kind of important to me -- our people told you to proceed and that the battery would magically find its power (erm, "recondition"), but you were maliciously bombing the test because you should have known they were dead wrong? So the issue is with Tesla's customer service, not with their vehicle?
 
2013-02-20 01:27:19 PM  

here to help: If conservatives are so gung ho about encouraging business why do they crap all over emerging tech that would create new business opportunities?


Because the only businesses they care about encouraging aren't businesses at all, they're just rich people who claim to be a business because they have an army of housekeepers and gardeners to tend to their fiefdom.
 
2013-02-20 01:28:56 PM  

ha-ha-guy: I'd imagine Tesla has the same problem a lot of other manufacturers have, the battery supplier can provide you with some batteries for prototypes that are defect free.  The day you order in bulk, the defect rate goes through the roof.  We saw it, order enough for 10 test mules?  No problem.  Want 100?  Suddenly the lead time increases by a significant amount.  Want a test fleet?  Welcome to defect central and the occasional exploding battery.  These defects might explain while some of the issues occurred.   I'm sure Tesla has prototypes that can back up those claims, but those may be the ones made back when Tesla was buying smaller batches of batteries and not stressing their supplier's abilities.


Tesla uses industry standard unprotected 18650 (18mm x 65mm cylindrical) size battery cells. Something like 7000 of them per Model S. Individual cells are delivered to Tesla and they assemble them into a proprietary battery pack that includes a lot of sophisticated features for battery monitoring, charging, conditioning and cooling (the pack is also the frame of the vehicle). Each cell is tested during the automated assembly process.

Tesla's trick is to have used an industry standard battery that can be supplied by about a dozen different companies and is kept in constant series production. The pack design is also tolerant of failed cells, so a number of the 7000 cells can fail without any adverse effects on the Model S's performance.

It was a quite brilliant decision on the part of Tesla to do that; all the other EV makers have gotten creamed by trying to use bigger, proprietary cells.
 
2013-02-20 01:30:31 PM  

Gosling: Oh my God! It's the final world!

THE FINAL WORLD!

THE CELESTIAL WALLS ARE CLOSING IN

DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED


Damn it. I wanted to be the grammar nazi.

/tiny fist, ect.
 
2013-02-20 01:30:43 PM  
John Broder is a poorly disguised stooge for big oil.  Margaret Sullivan has no choice but to protect him because she is aware of how deep the rabbit hole goes at the NYT and can't afford to have the rug yanked out from under their pay-to-play "journalism".

I have no idea what Steve Rousseau from Popular Mechanics has to do with this other than trying to cash in on the high profile nature of the subject matter.  His "controversial" conclusion is "There's no clear winner."
 
2013-02-20 01:32:03 PM  

UseUrHeadFred: His "controversial" conclusion is "There's no clear winner."


Because there was a clear loser, and they'd be glad to just call it a draw instead.
 
2013-02-20 01:32:29 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: Guys, we can't talk about this anymore. They had the final word.


World.
 
2013-02-20 01:32:46 PM  

Carth: Popcorn Johnny: The Tesla is a great car as long as you do this, this, this and this, but don't do that, that, that and that.

Isn't that the case with all cars? We've just had a 100 years to get used to and adapt to the thats of gas powered engines.

/you mean I have to add oil AND gas to this thing?


When you have a limited recharging network it is more a problem than "Well I hit the pedal to pass some semis and now I'm going to pull in to this service plaza instead of the next one for gas."  Plus a super charge stop is still designed to take at least 30 minutes to get 150 miles of range (http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger ).

Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump.  Plus 300 miles represents more than 4 hours of 70 mph travel, so by the time you're on E, you're likely ready to get out of the car.

It would take you about 4 hours and 15 minutes to travel 300 miles on the interstate with a gas powered car, assuming you could keep the cruise on 70.  The Tesla meanwhile had issues when the reporter went above 55 mph.  So if we assume the Tesla needs to keep it under 60, it takes the Tesla at least 5 hours, plus a 30 minute charge to cover the same distance.

This is the core of the issue.  The Tesla is really not a road trip style electric car, but a lot of Tesla's advertising is centered around their sedan as being a fully functional sedan (they talk about it can travel between Boston and NYC on their supercharge site, which is 214+ miles, their slogan is "Go ahead, take a trip", etc).  Turns out it doesn't look like the Tesla sedan actually is as independent as Musk claims it is.

It just seems like a rehash of the Roadster issues, which was the ultimate electric sports car with a range of 200 miles.  It turned out that range went to hell the moment you drove it like a sports car.  I like electric cars and I think they provide a lot of future options, but lying to the consumer is still wrong.
 
2013-02-20 01:32:56 PM  

CygnusDarius: The final words are: Mortal Kombat!




Wouldn't that be Finish Him?
 
2013-02-20 01:33:16 PM  

ha-ha-guy: hasty ambush: "Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, the "father of the Prius" who helped put hybrids on the map, said he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars.

Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

That said there are still storage and refueling issues with hydrogen.  At least with electric you can just plug into a wall and wait at the very worst.  With hydrogen, some municipalities have hydrogen stations for their fleet vehicles, but overall it is rare.



ZOMG!!! people will be riding on top of hydrogen BOMBS!!!
 
2013-02-20 01:33:48 PM  

Carth: This whole thing has shown has scared some journalists are of facts and data and how quickly they will change their story when presented with them after their article is published.


Am I having a stroke or are you? Something's not right.
 
2013-02-20 01:34:25 PM  
DRTFA, but this is what I'm guessing it says:

NY Times writer decides to write an article on the Tesla, arranges a road trip. Tesla tells him that he has to do 15 (or so) things to make the car work right. Writer agrees, doesn't do the 15 things, then writes an article slamming Tesla, while conveniently omitting that he didn't do the 15 things. In other words, he ignored most of the advice, and drove it like a regular person would drive it. Car dies.

Writer is an idiot for not following directions.

Tesla team are idiots for trying to pass off new technology as mainstream.

Did I miss anything?
 
2013-02-20 01:38:01 PM  

DeusMeh: ha-ha-guy: hasty ambush: "Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, the "father of the Prius" who helped put hybrids on the map, said he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars.

Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

That said there are still storage and refueling issues with hydrogen.  At least with electric you can just plug into a wall and wait at the very worst.  With hydrogen, some municipalities have hydrogen stations for their fleet vehicles, but overall it is rare.


ZOMG!!! people will be riding on top of hydrogen BOMBS!!!


Big ones, in buses.  Soon.  GM has been doing well selling hybrid buses to transit authorities.  The belief is they'll see the cost savings.  In turn that means when we push hydrogen buses that offer even more savings (currently being tested in some areas) in the next generation, the transit authorities won't freak out at the up front cost of setting up hydrogen fueling depots, etc.
 
2013-02-20 01:38:29 PM  

Gosling: Oh my God! It's the final world!

THE FINAL WORLD!

THE CELESTIAL WALLS ARE CLOSING IN

DOOOOOOOOOOOOMED


Go then, there are other worlds than these.
 
2013-02-20 01:38:54 PM  

SkunkWerks: Primitive Screwhead: How about comfortably numb?

You are receding.  A distant ship.  Smoke on the horizon.


You are only coming through in waves. Your lips move, but I can't hear what you're saying.
 
2013-02-20 01:38:59 PM  

Theaetetus: Journalists circling the wagons?


Sullivan, sure. She works for the same newspaper as the original reporter, so you kind of had to see that coming (sadly). Popular Mechanics though I think is doing the whole "false middle" thing (I'm sure there's a better phrase to describe it) where we think we're being fair by picking a position in between the two sides, even if those two sides aren't actually equal.

I mean, the data talks and while I could quibble about the driving around the parking lot thing (sounds like he was looking for a spot or the charger which is perfectly normal behavior) the rest of the data paints a VERY different picture from the reporter's article. I do think the author of the original article intended to decieve.
 
2013-02-20 01:41:01 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Big ones, in buses.


Last I checked, the essential component of hydrogen powered buses is that the fuel (i.e. hydrogen) is locked up in a non-volatile form, and then released slowly over time as the vehicle needs it.

To do it any other way would literally be "riding atop a bomb".  It won't happen.

I'm no fun.  I know.
 
2013-02-20 01:41:56 PM  

oh_please: DRTFA, but this is what I'm guessing it says:

NY Times writer decides to write an article on the Tesla, arranges a road trip. Tesla tells him that he has to do 15 (or so) things to make the car work right. Writer agrees, doesn't do the 15 things, then writes an article slamming Tesla, while conveniently omitting that he didn't do the 15 things. In other words, he ignored most of the advice, and drove it like a regular person would drive it. Car dies.

Writer is an idiot for not following directions.

Tesla team are idiots for trying to pass off new technology as mainstream.

Did I miss anything?


You missed the part where Tesla hired a Colombian hit squad to take the reporter out. Too bad too. That was the best part. The best part of the trip.
 
2013-02-20 01:42:09 PM  
As of right now, Popular Mechanics doesn't even have "Tesla" spelled correctly in its own header. Apparently they're waiting until the flying car comes out to go buy a spellcheck app
 
2013-02-20 01:42:11 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Carth: Popcorn Johnny: The Tesla is a great car as long as you do this, this, this and this, but don't do that, that, that and that.

Isn't that the case with all cars? We've just had a 100 years to get used to and adapt to the thats of gas powered engines.

/you mean I have to add oil AND gas to this thing?

When you have a limited recharging network it is more a problem than "Well I hit the pedal to pass some semis and now I'm going to pull in to this service plaza instead of the next one for gas."  Plus a super charge stop is still designed to take at least 30 minutes to get 150 miles of range (http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger ).

Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump.  Plus 300 miles represents more than 4 hours of 70 mph travel, so by the time you're on E, you're likely ready to get out of the car.

It would take you about 4 hours and 15 minutes to travel 300 miles on the interstate with a gas powered car, assuming you could keep the cruise on 70.  The Tesla meanwhile had issues when the reporter went above 55 mph.  So if we assume the Tesla needs to keep it under 60, it takes the Tesla at least 5 hours, plus a 30 minute charge to cover the same distance.

This is the core of the issue.  The Tesla is really not a road trip style electric car, but a lot of Tesla's advertising is centered around their sedan as being a fully functional sedan (they talk about it can travel between Boston and NYC on their supercharge site, which is 214+ miles, their slogan is "Go ahead, take a trip", etc).  Turns out it doesn't look like the Tesla sedan actually is as independent as Musk claims it is.

It just seems like a rehash of the Roadster issues, which was the ultimate electric sports car with a range of 200 miles.  It turned out that range went to hell the moment you drove it like a sports car.  I like electric cars and I think they provide a lot of future options, but lying to the consumer is sti ...


I agree. I think EVs are great for daily commuters  who will never have to go out of their way to refuel their car again. Plug in at night when you're home and say goodbye to weekly stops at the gas station. Since the Tesla is an $80k+ car it isn't a big issue since people spending that much normally have a second vehicle they can use for occasional road trips but if EVs are going to take over they will need to sort it out.
 
2013-02-20 01:43:43 PM  

firefly212: here to help: If conservatives are so gung ho about encouraging business why do they crap all over emerging tech that would create new business opportunities?

Because the only businesses they care about encouraging aren't businesses at all, they're just rich people who claim to be a business because they have an army of housekeepers and gardeners to tend to their fiefdom.


I know. I was being obtuse to see if anyone got riled up. Also you forgot "stickin' it to the filthy librul hippies".

This is all stupid anyway.  Who cares if these electric cars can't pull off 300 mile trips? They're perfect in urban settings for people who are only commuting to work and doing errands. If all those people used these cars we'd have a huge reduction in pollution and fossil fuel consumption. Then for long trips rent a vehicle if you have to. Perhaps there should be some kind of tax break for two or three car rentals a year for people owning electrics. That way it would remove some of the concerns surrounding needing a gas powered vehicle for long distances.

People out in the boondocks need gas powered vehicles and that's fine but for them to kick and scream yelp about other people owning them is very very stupid. Same with lefties who don't understand that electrics just don't cut it out in the middle of nowhere. If you break down in the middle of a populated area help is close. Out in the middle of nowhere it can be a serious problem.

But everyone's gotta stroke their rage boners. Losers.
 
2013-02-20 01:44:29 PM  
i1.ytimg.com
 
2013-02-20 01:45:21 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump.


Ten minutes? What do you drive, an APC? (^_~)
 
2013-02-20 01:45:43 PM  

SkunkWerks: ha-ha-guy: Big ones, in buses.

Last I checked, the essential component of hydrogen powered buses is that the fuel (i.e. hydrogen) is locked up in a non-volatile form, and then released slowly over time as the vehicle needs it.

To do it any other way would literally be "riding atop a bomb".  It won't happen.

I'm no fun.  I know.


It will scare the piss out of people who don't know what a reformed methanol fuel cell is or anything like that.  To most people it is just going to be a big hydrogen bomb, as opposed to hydrogen rich methanol or the like.
 
2013-02-20 01:48:21 PM  

jedikinkoid: ha-ha-guy: Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump.

Ten minutes? What do you drive, an APC? (^_~)


I was being generous and assuming you had to wait a moment for a pump, dick around the world's slowest credit card, reader, etc.  Most gas stations average been 5 to 10 gpm, you should be fueled up within 4 minutes.
 
2013-02-20 01:49:03 PM  

MikeBoomshadow: As of right now, Popular Mechanics doesn't even have "Tesla" spelled correctly in its own header. Apparently they're waiting until the flying car comes out to go buy a spellcheck app


To be fair, the authors name is Ben Wojdyla, so spelling probably confuses the hell out of him.
 
2013-02-20 01:49:35 PM  

ha-ha-guy: To most people it is just going to be a big hydrogen bomb, as opposed to hydrogen rich methanol or the like.


Maybe we can somehow convince them it's powered by this:

1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-20 01:49:47 PM  

Marcus Aurelius: MikeBoomshadow: As of right now, Popular Mechanics doesn't even have "Tesla" spelled correctly in its own header. Apparently they're waiting until the flying car comes out to go buy a spellcheck app

To be fair, the authors name is Ben Wojdyla, so spelling probably confuses the hell out of him.


Wait, that's the author from the sidebar article.

/never mind
 
2013-02-20 01:51:28 PM  
ibdp.huluim.com
"A pox on both your houses!"

/obscure?
 
2013-02-20 01:54:24 PM  

SkunkWerks: ha-ha-guy: Big ones, in buses.

Last I checked, the essential component of hydrogen powered buses is that the fuel (i.e. hydrogen) is locked up in a non-volatile form, and then released slowly over time as the vehicle needs it.

To do it any other way would literally be "riding atop a bomb".  It won't happen.

I'm no fun.  I know.


take a look at a side by side video of hydrogen fuel tank ignitions compared to the same circumstances with regular gasoline...

and then tell us which is more akin to an actual explosion
 
2013-02-20 01:55:04 PM  

ha-ha-guy: This is the core of the issue.  The Tesla is really not a road trip style electric car, but a lot of Tesla's advertising is centered around their sedan as being a fully functional sedan (they talk about it can travel between Boston and NYC on their supercharge site, which is 214+ miles, their slogan is "Go ahead, take a trip", etc).  Turns out it doesn't look like the Tesla sedan actually is as independent as Musk claims it is.




Ah, but hipster-love of the name "Tesla" obviously trumps all that.
 
2013-02-20 01:56:04 PM  
Fark: Where batteries are emerging technology.
 
2013-02-20 01:58:36 PM  

DeusMeh: more akin to an actual explosion


Both.  Next question?
 
2013-02-20 01:59:16 PM  

MythDragon: "A pox on both your houses!"

/obscure?


I saw that in the theaters, still not sure why.
 
2013-02-20 01:59:50 PM  

The Muthaship: Fark: Where batteries are emerging technology.


Oddly enough, it tops the list of "least advanced technologies" over the last century.  Or in other words, it hasn't changed very much since it's inception.
 
2013-02-20 02:00:28 PM  
I look forward to the time (in the next 12 months or so) when interstate 5 gets its full implementation of level III (fast) chargers. I'll do a *one day* road-trip from Seattle to San Francisco (800 miles) and I'm sure I'll keep hearing from farkers that it's impossible for an affordable electric car to be used for road trips.

I'm sure the goal posts will be moved to say "Well, electric cars can't tow a boat on the way to the Yukon, so they're worthless for anything but 2% of drivers."
 
2013-02-20 02:01:24 PM  

BuckTurgidson: [i1.ytimg.com image 320x180]


Today, the role of  Toshiru Mifune's Letter Opener shall be played by  BuckTurgidson.  Lets see if anyone notices.
 
2013-02-20 02:01:46 PM  

Carth: Since the Tesla is an $80k+ car it isn't a big issue since people spending that much normally have a second vehicle they can use for occasional road trips but if EVs are going to take over they will need to sort it out.


The problem Tesla has with that statement is that then they're just the expensive version of a Nissan Leaf or the like.  Not some super new car of the future that will change how the auto industry does business.  Some of it is marketing and some of it is how Musk feels this need to sell himself as the kind of cutting edge ventures.

SpaceX is cool, but Tesla has always been a bit biatchy how the rest of the rest of the industry sees them as kids playing around with battery tech.  Also I think they're a bit unhappy on how the Tesla sedan is struggling with reviewing, whereas the RAV4 EV (where Toyota took Tesla technology and refined it) is getting positive reviews and performing as advertising.

/the big issue I see with the Model S is the fact that the battery pack plays a role in the stability and integrity of the car, which means if later you switch it to a hydrogen pack of some sort, that opens the door to issues
//whereas the Volt, Cmax, RAV4EV, etc are all designed so you can stick any power source in the area where the batteries are, they just happen to use batteries for now
/Tesla is very much invested and married to batteries which could benefit them or kill them in a generation or two
 
2013-02-20 02:01:50 PM  

ha-ha-guy: jedikinkoid: ha-ha-guy: Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump.

Ten minutes? What do you drive, an APC? (^_~)

I was being generous and assuming you had to wait a moment for a pump, dick around the world's slowest credit card, reader, etc.  Most gas stations average been 5 to 10 gpm, you should be fueled up within 4 minutes.


Fair enough. (^_^) I actually figured you were accounting for the time it takes to pull off the highway, drive around on surface streets, and get back on the highway... I just couldn't resist taking a poke at the notion of a normal car's gas tank that takes ten minutes to fill up. (Though with some of the ginormous compensation-mobiles there are out there, I guess it's plausible.)
 
2013-02-20 02:02:36 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: CygnusDarius: The final words are: Mortal Kombat!

Wouldn't that be Finish Him?



Wouldn't that be Kano (or whomever) Wins! ?
 
2013-02-20 02:02:38 PM  

The Muthaship: Fark: Where batteries are emerging technology.


They are in this example. Americans are used to a range of 300+ miles, and being able to refuel on a whim. Tesla is not able to do that yet.
 
2013-02-20 02:03:21 PM  

MythDragon: The Stealth Hippopotamus: CygnusDarius: The final words are: Mortal Kombat!

Wouldn't that be Finish Him?


Wouldn't that be Kano (or whomever) Wins! ?


No, it would be  Fatality.
 
2013-02-20 02:03:56 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: MythDragon: "A pox on both your houses!"

/obscure?

I saw that in the theaters, still not sure why.


were you trying to get into a girl's pants? That would be the only logical explanation.
 
2013-02-20 02:06:37 PM  

reductive: Fascinating how nobody but Broder talks about the part where Broder spoke directly with managers and engineers half a dozen times over two days.


Fascinating how he doesn't have recordings or even direct quotes from them. There's a huge difference between "Charge it for an hour exactly, and then head out on a 60 mile trip with only 30 miles of charge" and "It should be okay if you charge it for an hour or so to get the charge you need". His articles are so vaguely worded that he could have been told either.
 
2013-02-20 02:08:49 PM  

ha-ha-guy: SpaceX is cool, but Tesla has always been a bit biatchy how the rest of the rest of the industry sees them as kids playing around with battery tech. Also I think they're a bit unhappy on how the Tesla sedan is struggling with reviewing, whereas the RAV4 EV (where Toyota took Tesla technology and refined it) is getting positive reviews and performing as advertising.


Actually, Toyota just licensed Tesla's battery and drivetrain technology and drops it in, completely stock from the Tesla factory. No refining involved.
 
2013-02-20 02:08:54 PM  

reductive: Seems kind of important to me -- our people told you to proceed and that the battery would magically find its power (erm, "recondition"), but you were maliciously bombing the test because you should have known they were dead wrong?


They weren't "dead wrong' The car still went 50+ miles after showing 32 miles of charge.

And warming up a battery causes the chemical reactions in it to happen faster, thus does indeed cause it to provide more power- no "magic" needed.
 
2013-02-20 02:10:43 PM  

MythDragon: were you trying to get into a girl's pants? That would be the only logical explanation.


I went alone.
 
2013-02-20 02:12:37 PM  

TanSau: Who the fark still reads Popular Mechanics (or Science) anymore?


People who are waiting for a haircut at the "barber" (not at a "hair salon"), but aren't interested in Field and Stream (even to just flip to the end and read the Pat McManus column) and all the Sports Illustrateds are being read, even the Swimsuit Issue with the sticky cover and missing pages.
 
2013-02-20 02:15:36 PM  

MrSteve007: ha-ha-guy: SpaceX is cool, but Tesla has always been a bit biatchy how the rest of the rest of the industry sees them as kids playing around with battery tech. Also I think they're a bit unhappy on how the Tesla sedan is struggling with reviewing, whereas the RAV4 EV (where Toyota took Tesla technology and refined it) is getting positive reviews and performing as advertising.

Actually, Toyota just licensed Tesla's battery and drivetrain technology and drops it in, completely stock from the Tesla factory. No refining involved.


The refinements come in the form of the the management software used by Toyota.  The Rav4 has dual mode features based on lessons Toyota learned from their first generation one (the one Chevron sued over) and the Prius family of vehicles.

Note for example how the RAV4EV motor runs at 115 kW, whereas the Roadster offers three phases, none of which match the RAV4EV.  Tuning and management software can make a huge difference.
 
2013-02-20 02:19:43 PM  

ha-ha-guy: When you have a limited recharging network it is more a problem than "Well I hit the pedal to pass some semis and now I'm going to pull in to this service plaza instead of the next one for gas." Plus a super charge stop is still designed to take at least 30 minutes to get 150 miles of range (http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger ).

Your average sedan should get at least 300 miles out of a tank of gas, which takes all of ten minutes to pump. Plus 300 miles represents more than 4 hours of 70 mph travel, so by the time you're on E, you're likely ready to get out of the car.

It would take you about 4 hours and 15 minutes to travel 300 miles on the interstate with a gas powered car, assuming you could keep the cruise on 70. The Tesla meanwhile had issues when the reporter went above 55 mph. So if we assume the Tesla needs to keep it under 60, it takes the Tesla at least 5 hours, plus a 30 minute charge to cover the same distance.

This is the core of the issue. The Tesla is really not a road trip style electric car, but a lot of Tesla's advertising is centered around their sedan as being a fully functional sedan (they talk about it can travel between Boston and NYC on their supercharge site, which is 214+ miles, their slogan is "Go ahead, take a trip", etc). Turns out it doesn't look like the Tesla sedan actually is as independent as Musk claims it is.

It just seems like a rehash of the Roadster issues, which was the ultimate electric sports car with a range of 200 miles. It turned out that range went to hell the moment you drove it like a sports car. I like electric cars and I think they provide a lot of future options, but lying to the consumer is still wrong


All of this is solved with just a few more charging stations. I don't have an electric car, but I'd like to have one. Living five minutes from downtown seattle if I sit here and think for a while it seems to me that a simple 100 mile range would take care of me literally 99% of the time. This year for example I've driven out of the city over fifty miles exactly once. Which makes me think it might be worth it to skip the weekly trip to the gas station ten or twelve times, then spring for a rental car if I want to take a worry free road trip over a long distance.
 
2013-02-20 02:22:09 PM  

orbister: Theaetetus: Broder: The Model S sucks! It ran out of electricity!
Tesla: That's because you drove too fast, took long detours, and drove in circles in a parking lot. Here's the data.

... showing that he went slightly faster than he claimed to have set the cruise control, took a short detour through Manhattan, which they knew about in advance and which their customer support person recommended, and drove once round a parking place to get to the supercharger point.


Mr. "Going faster wouldn't affect the mileage", meet Mr. "It's not normal driving, and the track mileage is a lot less."

ha-ha-guy: Part of it makes me think Musk is selling snake oil.  For example the Roadster's 200 mile claim was for normal driving, despite Tesla doing a lot to sell the car as a track car (where it only gets 50 to 60 miles).  It makes me wonder what assumptions Tesla is making regarding the sedan's driving conditions and how disingenuous they might be.

 
2013-02-20 02:23:30 PM  
The Final Word? Well Joe Don Baker is here to give you ...

upload.wikimedia.org
You think you can take me? It's your move...you go ahead on
 
2013-02-20 02:24:25 PM  
So if Ford or GM claimed the NYT was conspiring against them and the gas mileage of thier cars and had THIER own data from themselves as thier supposed proof how many of you would believe Ford or GM over the NYT?
 
2013-02-20 02:25:15 PM  

JohnBigBootay: All of this is solved with just a few more charging stations. I don't have an electric car, but I'd like to have one. Living five minutes from downtown seattle if I sit here and think for a while it seems to me that a simple 100 mile range would take care of me literally 99% of the time. This year for example I've driven out of the city over fifty miles exactly once. Which makes me think it might be worth it to skip the weekly trip to the gas station ten or twelve times, then spring for a rental car if I want to take a worry free road trip over a long distance.


Moving goal posts?  Where did I ever say the Tesla wasn't a fine option for city driving?  I pointed out the issue is that Tesla seems to be billing the Model S as a road trip capable car and it had issues on a NYC to Boston road trip, but even you admit the need to rent a gas powered car for road trips.

The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute.  The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger.  You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.
 
2013-02-20 02:25:17 PM  
I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article. They got caught red-handed by the data logger and all the crackpot screeching in the world can't change that simple fact. I hope Tesla sues their a**es off because I can almost guarantee you the NYT will use the old "it's entertainment, not journalism" argument they so often accuse OMG FAUX NEWS! of, as well as the defense used by Top Gear. That would pretty much just be the icing on the cake for these crooks.

And on another point, years ago during the New York Times / Jayson Blair scandal, Jessica Lynch's parents were asked why they didn't call out Blair for completely fabricating his article. They said something like they just assumed everyone knew not to believe anything in the New York Times or the mainstream media, that it was all sensationalist garbage. It's pretty telling that these rural folks from West Virginia had so much more media savvy and sophistication than the urban hipster liberals here on fark defending the Times for this article.
 
2013-02-20 02:29:41 PM  
This is why nobody likes electric cars.
 
2013-02-20 02:33:46 PM  

JohnBigBootay: All of this is solved with just a few more charging stations. I don't have an electric car, but I'd like to have one. Living five minutes from downtown seattle if I sit here and think for a while it seems to me that a simple 100 mile range would take care of me literally 99% of the time. This year for example I've driven out of the city over fifty miles exactly once. Which makes me think it might be worth it to skip the weekly trip to the gas station ten or twelve times, then spring for a rental car if I want to take a worry free road trip over a long distance.


I was just eyeballing the current state of "30-minute" fast chargers in the Pacific NW, and was actually amazed to see that there are shiat ton of them currently operating along WA and OR highways. 14 in WA and 23 in OR with another 11 to come online in a few months. Looks to be about every 50 miles or so. Link

Plus the fact that the Seattle metro area now has 2,000 (half of which are public) level II chargers currently in place.

ha-ha-guy: The refinements come in the form of the the management software used by Toyota. The Rav4 has dual mode features based on lessons Toyota learned from their first generation one (the one Chevron sued over) and the Prius family of vehicles.


This I could see. Not unlike the 'Eco' mode in the Leaf which gives about 20% more distance by ramping down output of other devices onboard and remapping throttle and regenerative braking response.

Theaetetus: Mr. "Going faster wouldn't affect the mileage", meet Mr. "It's not normal driving, and the track mileage is a lot less."


My Honda 919 motorcycle. On the highway = 46mpg. On the racetrack = 12mpg. I wonder why anyone would think electric cars would be any different.
 
2013-02-20 02:33:57 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article.


What world do you live in where this is happening?  It's like you've not read any of the previous 3 threads on this reporters idiocy.
 
2013-02-20 02:35:48 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Moving goal posts? Where did I ever say the Tesla wasn't a fine option for city driving? I pointed out the issue is that Tesla seems to be billing the Model S as a road trip capable car and it had issues on a NYC to Boston road trip, but even you admit the need to rent a gas powered car for road trips.

The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


I was neither moving the goal posts, trying to refute anything you said, or trying to push electric cars as a good choice for road trips. Just musing on the fact that electric would work for me. Not all of us are here to argue.
 
2013-02-20 02:35:56 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


They will get it down to 30 minutes soon (by essentially doubling the voltage) getting it much lower than that becomes seriously dangerous. I think 30 minutes is reasonable, you can have a quick lunch while it refills, you'll see more charging stations at fast food outlets as time goes on. An hour though, yes is way too long.
 
2013-02-20 02:36:09 PM  
I won't even consider buying a Tesla until the big (DeLorean inspired) marketing campaign kicks off:

                                                         "Buy the car, the coke is on us!"
 
2013-02-20 02:36:39 PM  

WhoopAssWayne: I love seeing all the OMG FAUX NEWS! liberals on here defending the New York Times and this pure fabrication of an article. They got caught red-handed by the data logger and all the crackpot screeching in the world can't change that simple fact. I hope Tesla sues their a**es off because I can almost guarantee you the NYT will use the old "it's entertainment, not journalism" argument they so often accuse OMG FAUX NEWS! of, as well as the defense used by Top Gear. That would pretty much just be the icing on the cake for these crooks.

And on another point, years ago during the New York Times / Jayson Blair scandal, Jessica Lynch's parents were asked why they didn't call out Blair for completely fabricating his article. They said something like they just assumed everyone knew not to believe anything in the New York Times or the mainstream media, that it was all sensationalist garbage. It's pretty telling that these rural folks from West Virginia had so much more media savvy and sophistication than the urban hipster liberals here on fark defending the Times for this article.


That was retarded and you should feel retarded.
 
2013-02-20 02:37:52 PM  

MrSteve007: I was just eyeballing the current state of "30-minute" fast chargers in the Pacific NW, and was actually amazed to see that there are shiat ton of them currently operating along WA and OR highways. 14 in WA and 23 in OR with another 11 to come online in a few months. Looks to be about every 50 miles or so


Yeah. I looked up the new electric - honda fit I think it was - as a flex car for work, but they aren't doing them in our zip code. Which surprised me because I see electric charging stations all over the place up here.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:00 PM  

Alex Broughton Butt Chugger: SkunkWerks: Primitive Screwhead: How about comfortably numb?

You are receding.  A distant ship.  Smoke on the horizon.

You are only coming through in waves. Your lips move, but I can't hear what you're saying.


 Keep it up and Mr. Waters will see you in court.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:46 PM  

reductive: Fascinating how nobody but Broder talks about the part where Broder spoke directly with managers and engineers half a dozen times over two days. If Tesla's own people advised Broder to do what he did, can we really attribute his behavior to stupidity? It's not clear whether Broder is misrepresenting what his contacts at Tesla were telling him, because Musk and the press simply ignore this point.


Given that Broder has already been caught misreporting facts, I'm not sure I'm that eager to extend the benefit of the doubt to him. Does the man have any actual evidence that these conversations took place and that the content of the conversations were as he reports because, otherwise, I'm not sure I'm willing to consider him credible.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:52 PM  
It appears that Popular Mechanics has pulled the article from their online archives. Apparently, too many Farkers were reading it...
 
2013-02-20 02:44:36 PM  

Oldiron_79: So if Ford or GM claimed the NYT was conspiring against them and the gas mileage of thier cars and had THIER own data from themselves as thier supposed proof how many of you would believe Ford or GM over the NYT?


If the data was this compelling, I would be inclined to.

So, what's your insinuation? That because we're all libby, lib, libs, the only reason that we're siding with Tesla is because Tesla isn't The Man, or something?
 
2013-02-20 02:45:32 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.


If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.

Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.

Tens of thousands of Americans go on road-trips with motorcycles, which require refueling stops every 100 to 150 miles or so, depending on how much they trust their reserve tank. Typically, they'll top off the tank (which honestly takes about 3-4 minutes when you include taking gear off, gassing up, and paying for fuel). Then get off the bike and stretch a bit, and get some snacks from the quick-mart (about 5-10 minutes or so), then take a piss (another 2-3 minutes). At this point, you're looking at a solid 20 minutes to get gas, piss and eat.

A fast charger tops off a Leaf in 22-25 minutes, and considering it costs ~$2 instead of $18 in my motorcycle, I'd be more than happy to wait an extra 5 minutes during my road-trip breaks to refuel for almost 1/10th the cost. If I want to stick to the scenic by-ways on my road trips (with a 55mph speed limit), taking a 25 minute break for every 2 hours of driving isn't that unreasonable. Shiat, I already do that on my motorcycle road trips.
 
2013-02-20 02:46:57 PM  

Some 'Splainin' To Do: So, what's your insinuation? That because we're all libby, lib, libs, the only reason that we're siding with Tesla is because Tesla isn't The Man, or something?


Sounds about right.
 
2013-02-20 02:47:55 PM  

MrSteve007: ha-ha-guy: The fundamental issue is a 10 gpm gas pump puts 180 to 300 miles of range into a vehicle in one minute. The Tesla takes at least an hour to get 300 miles of range on a supercharger. You can't solve the range issues of an electric car until you solve the charging, so marketing it as a road trip capable car is leading the consumer down the garden path.

If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.

Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.

Tens of thousands of Americans go on road-trips with motorcycles, which require refueling stops every 100 to 150 miles or so, depending on how much they trust their reserve tank. Typically, they'll top off the tank (which honestly takes about 3-4 minutes when you include taking gear off, gassing up, and paying for fuel). Then get off the bike and stretch a bit, and get some snacks from the quick-mart (about 5-10 minutes or so), then take a piss (another 2-3 minutes). At this point, you're looking at a solid 20 minutes to get gas, piss and eat.

A fast charger tops off a Leaf in 22-25 minutes, and considering it costs ~$2 instead of $18 in my motorcycle, I'd be more than happy to wait an extra 5 minutes during my road-trip breaks to refuel for almost 1/10th the cost. If I want to stick to the scenic by-ways on my road trips (with a 55mph speed limit), taking a 25 minute break for every 2 hours of driving isn't that unreasonable. Shiat, I already do that on my motorcycle road trips.


So you are saying they are about as partical for long trips as motorcycles, which are not practical at all
 
2013-02-20 02:55:06 PM  

Lost Thought 00: So you are saying they are about as partical for long trips as motorcycles, which are not practical at all


Heh, tell that to yourself the next time you're passed by a group of bikers this summer on the interstate. With exception to long-haul truckers, most of the long distance travelers I see in rural areas like Montana and Wyoming are cruiser bikers on Goldwings or Harley cruisers - or the opposite end of the spectrum, RV's.

Then there's me, doing 900 miles days on a "naked" bike and some cloth saddlebags and no windscreen.
sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net
 
2013-02-20 03:04:13 PM  

MrSteve007: Heh, tell that to yourself the next time you're passed by a group of bikers this summer on the interstate. With exception to long-haul truckers, most of the long distance travelers I see in rural areas like Montana and Wyoming are cruiser bikers on Goldwings or Harley cruisers - or the opposite end of the spectrum, RV's.

Then there's me, doing 900 miles days on a "naked" bike and some cloth saddlebags and no windscreen.


Motorcycles are a hobby, not a primary means of transportation for most people.
 
2013-02-20 03:58:14 PM  

jedikinkoid: I would be a little more specific, though: "Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity and confirmation bias." I don't think he intentionally sabotaged the test, but I do think he found what he was looking for. Humans are funny that way... we can find just about anything (reasons to be offended, rationalizations, affirmations, etc) when we look hard enough.


My brother is retarded. I'm dead serious. One of the things about retarded people is most of them have all sorts of rigid picky likes and dislikes.  My brother hates gas stoves.  He threw a fit when my parents bought one. A couple years later the igniter on the left front burner stopped working very well.  My brother always used it, just to make a point.  I still can hear *click click click click click click* it doesn't work! click click click click click click foom!*

I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does.  But whatever. Broder's a retard.  I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.
 
2013-02-20 04:03:58 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: OMG !  as the owner of an alternative fuel vehicle, you might have to plan your trip more carefully.

Golly, just like a diesel owner used to do, but who cares about that.


Correction: As the owner of a $100k 400hp luxury car, you may have to drive at 54mph on the freeway and leave the heat off in 30 degree weather. And if you're on a trip, and the weather is cold, you really should find a way to plug it in overnight.

Thats a bit more than "know where you can get fuel".
 
2013-02-20 04:08:43 PM  
Can't we all just get along?
 
2013-02-20 04:13:08 PM  

gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.


Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!
 
2013-02-20 04:13:30 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Motorcycles are a hobby, not a primary means of transportation for most people.


Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.
 
2013-02-20 04:24:41 PM  

oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!


and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?
 
2013-02-20 04:24:47 PM  

MrSteve007: Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.


You make way too much sense and are far too polite. So you'll just be shouted down. It's just how americans think (and I am one) - they buy things based on how they use them 5% of the time rather than the 95% of the time.
 
2013-02-20 04:25:13 PM  

cHico11: "Decisions he made at a crucial juncture-when he recharged the Model S in Norwich, Conn., a stop forced by the unexpected loss of charge overnight-were certainly instrumental in this saga's high-drama ending," she writes.

Norwich?  If you plan on stopping in Norwich, CT on a trip from Washington DC to Milford, CT, you're going just a little bit out of the way.  Just a little.


Huh.  Cute, even if I'd imagine they meant that hoity-toity hell hole that is Norwalk.
 
2013-02-20 04:25:54 PM  

Master Sphincter: So any company can use any name without permission? Or is Tesla's estate allowing this?

/might change last name to Tesla


I doubt there is an estate. Tesla died deeply in debt from his wireless power transmission attempts.
 
2013-02-20 04:40:07 PM  
ha-ha-guy:
Part of it makes me think Musk is selling snake oil.  For example the Roadster's 200 mile claim was for normal driving, despite Tesla doing a lot to sell the car as a track car (where it only gets 50 to 60 miles).  It makes me wonder what assumptions Tesla is making regarding the sedan's driving conditions and how disingenuous they might be.

As opposed to traditional auto-makers building ICE vehicles?  I'm sure those stats on the window stickers are easily attainable by normal every day driving habits.
 
2013-02-20 04:46:58 PM  

Carth: oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!

and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?


I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing".  It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.

And, no, nobody's going to hope behind the wheel. That's why the technology is NOT READY.
 
2013-02-20 04:49:23 PM  

Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.


For everyone who accuses the NY Times reporter of lying, simply explain to me one thing: to what end?  He's previously reviewed the Tesla and given it favorable reviews and he had nice things to say about the West coast super-charger station network (the east Coast version of which he was testing, NOT the car)

so this guy doesn't seem to have a secret agenda against Tesla or electric cars in general, so i repeat, why risk his career lying about this?

OTOH Elon Musk's response tells me his company is in VERY deep trouble and he's hiding it.  His paranoid action in having the data recorder turned on because he ASSUMED the reporter would lie, and his extremely defensive public data dump tells me he's really worried about any negative pub, which hints that's going to need to seek a new round of funding from investors soon
 
2013-02-20 04:50:34 PM  

oh_please: heel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?

I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing". It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.


There is only one direction to follow not 15. Charge fully if you are going to take a long trip. Simple. Keep repeating the NOT READY DERP to keep yourself entertained.
 
2013-02-20 04:53:16 PM  

oh_please: Carth: oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!

and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?

I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing".  It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.

And, no, nobody's going to hope behind the wheel. That's why the technology is NOT READY.


Except Musk, or anyone else at Tesla, never said that in any of the articles I've seen. Do you have a link with that quote about or are you just making up things to prove a point you've already decided.

Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.
 
2013-02-20 04:58:00 PM  

MrSteve007: If you can pull off a 1 minute gas stop on a road trip, you should look into working in NASCAR.


10 gpm = 10 gallons in the car in one minute and all you have to do is stand there hold the pump handle.  Plug into the supercharger, wait a moment, and you've gained 5 miles worth of charge.  The overhead is the same, pull in, arrange payment, insert something into the car.  After that the gas pump wins.

Where did I ever claim the entire gas stop was 1 minute?  If you read up thread I provided a floor of 10 minutes for the total stop.  Although if you hit a service plaza with a good card reader and modern pumps you can do 3 minutes.  That is about what you're supposed average if you're doing a Cannonball.
 
2013-02-20 04:58:38 PM  

Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.


That's the thing, like how "bird" is the word for radio slogans for cheap wine turned into surf rock. "lying" is the word for libel lawyers, it's been proven definitively that Broder was sloppy, whether he was actually lied is much more difficult to prove which sets them up for a lawsuit. That's why 'lying' is no longer a part of the journalist's dictionary, they'll say anything but the L word
 
2013-02-20 04:59:52 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.


By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.
 
2013-02-20 05:02:20 PM  
In this thread I've learned that libby lib libtards are apparently bad because they're siding with the reporter. Also those damnable libby lib libtards are bad because they're siding with Tesla.

Only could what passes today for "conservative" thought create quantum super-positions, where imaginary opponents are responsible for being wrong by being for and against something at the same time.

So glad I quit the republican party last year, and dissapointed I didn't do it sooner.
 
2013-02-20 05:05:23 PM  

Carth: Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.


The charger issues and the like are definitely the journalist's fault (well maybe not the 90% one depending on how clear the battery full indicator is, specifically a graphic versus a number).  What stuck out in Musk's response were his issues with the fact the journalist varied the speed and set the climate control to 74.  My wife tends to keep her side of the car at 73 and on I-75 you can hit 80 mph easily while doing the flow of traffic and suddenly be down to 60 when you run into truck traffic.  Neither action by the journalist seems to be abnormal driving or something the consumer doesn't expect their car to do.

The fact Musk had an issue with the speed and the climate seems to imply that "max range mode" is bordering on "limp mode" for highway driving.  I just want to see someone else get a Tesla, take it out on the highway and provide what you have to so the car makes it 150 miles.  After that it should be clear if the Tesla can do what Musk says it can or if you're limping along in the far right lane with your flashers on.
 
2013-02-20 05:06:26 PM  

BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?



Hey you leave Moller out of this pal.

He's busy with things... important things!


/like looking for more gullible investors...
 
2013-02-20 05:06:49 PM  

JohnBigBootay: MrSteve007: Agreed, they're not a primary means of transportation for most people, but when it comes to recreational road trips (which is what the main subject is here), they're a large share of vehicles on the road - primarily due to their high fuel economy.

Nearly half a million motorcycles were sold in the US last year. In comparison, 5 million passenger cars & trucks are sold in a year. Considering 1 out of 10 vehicles sold in the US are motorcycles, they outsell hybrids (let alone all electric) cars by a large margin. And as some like to claim, they're not practical (I argue that electric vehicles, which are enclosed from the weather, have heaters and can seat 4-5 people are far more practical).

Considering the distances traveled when compared to the time it takes to refuel motorcycles every ~100 miles or so, there's no reason why similar trips can't be taken with electric cars and fast chargers.

You make way too much sense and are far too polite. So you'll just be shouted down. It's just how americans think (and I am one) - they buy things based on how they use them 5% of the time rather than the 95% of the time.



Lease a Nissan Leaf like I do.  $130-ish a month for three years, then turn it in and don't get stuck with old technology.  Carpool lane access for fast commute.  No gas, oil, or plugs (still has coolant, and an air filter, but neither should need to be touched for the three years you'd have it.)
 
2013-02-20 05:07:01 PM  

Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.


Yup, he who can compress the hydrogen will be king of the energy industry.
 
2013-02-20 05:08:37 PM  

oh_please: being able to refuel on a whim.


As the owner of an electric vehicle with a far shorter range than a Tesla, I can assure you that it is much nicer to have a "full tank" every morning than to be able to refuel quickly, but have to do it at a gas station.

I would much rather have to take a longer break in the middle of my long distance drive that I might take once or twice a year than to have to stop at the gas station twice a week for 5 minutes.

/Always hated stopping for gas.
//Have had basically no range anxiety with my electric car.
 
2013-02-20 05:09:56 PM  

BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?


Here you go

Will run you around 300K though, once production starts.
 
2013-02-20 05:10:40 PM  

Magorn: Headso: There's no clear "winner" in this debacle. Broder might have been sloppy in his reporting

wow, that's generous instead of saying "lying" they call it sloppy reporting like it wasn't intentional. popular mechanics is looks like they apologizing here, sad.

For everyone who accuses the NY Times reporter of lying, simply explain to me one thing: to what end?  He's previously reviewed the Tesla and given it favorable reviews and he had nice things to say about the West coast super-charger station network (the east Coast version of which he was testing, NOT the car)

so this guy doesn't seem to have a secret agenda against Tesla or electric cars in general, so i repeat, why risk his career lying about this?

OTOH Elon Musk's response tells me his company is in VERY deep trouble and he's hiding it.  His paranoid action in having the data recorder turned on because he ASSUMED the reporter would lie, and his extremely defensive public data dump tells me he's really worried about any negative pub, which hints that's going to need to seek a new round of funding from investors soon


Given how Top Gear did a hit piece on Tesla and Telsa couldn't do jack about it, it's less paranoia than proper precaution. Of course he'd be worried about negative publicity, The Simpsons did more to kill Nuclear energy in America than Three Mile ever could, if the media uses Electric Cars similarly, it will kill the entire concept all together
 
2013-02-20 05:15:53 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Cthulhu_is_my_homeboy: ha-ha-guy: Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

By weight, anyway. The density of hydrogen is so low, that even in cryogenic liquid form, it only has about half the energy density of gasoline for a given volume.

Yup, he who can compress the hydrogen will be king of the energy industry.


Yea, that's part of the equation that gets ignored for liquid natural gas (LNG) also - the energy to liquify it, and what to do with all the waste heat that comes out of it when you condense it.
 
2013-02-20 05:15:59 PM  

ha-ha-guy: Carth: Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.

The charger issues and the like are definitely the journalist's fault (well maybe not the 90% one depending on how clear the battery full indicator is, specifically a graphic versus a number).  What stuck out in Musk's response were his issues with the fact the journalist varied the speed and set the climate control to 74.  My wife tends to keep her side of the car at 73 and on I-75 you can hit 80 mph easily while doing the flow of traffic and suddenly be down to 60 when you run into truck traffic.  Neither action by the journalist seems to be abnormal driving or something the consumer doesn't expect their car to do.

The fact Musk had an issue with the speed and the climate seems to imply that "max range mode" is bordering on "limp mode" for highway driving.  I just want to see someone else get a Tesla, take it out on the highway and provide what you have to so the car makes it 150 miles.  After that it should be clear if the Tesla can do what Musk says it can or if you're limping along in the far right lane with your flashers on.


I agree with you. Did you read the reports from CNN and the 9 other Tesla drivers last week who did the same trip ? Most of them kept their cars between 72-76 degrees, had their speed vary between 60-75 and they all made it. The only significant differences were they enable  range mode and it was 10 degrees warmer during their overnight stay (CNN didn't stop overnight but the other drivers did).

The only difference between  'range mode' and 'standard mode" is that in range you can charge the battery 100%, vs 90% in standard and the battery can completely discharge. This is why Musk was saying the car still had charge when Broder called the flat bed but he was saying it wouldn't drive. At least that is how the difference was explained to me when I went for a test drive.

/no i didn't buy it
 
2013-02-20 05:17:32 PM  

Rixel: BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?

Here you go

Will run you around 300K though, once production starts.


It also requires a pilots license thank god.
 
2013-02-20 05:18:59 PM  
This Popular Mechanics article is trying to whitewash NY Times' smear campaign.

John Broder: Tesla is crap
Elon Musk: You're lying, I can prove it.
John Broder: Oh yeah? Where's the proof?
Elon Musk: I've logged your test. It shows you're lying.
John Broder: *ghasp* (hides)
Margaret Sullivan: Hey, John Broder didn't actually lied...  He just...  He...  Hey, look over there! Chewbacca!
Steve Rousseau: Yes, it's Chewbacca.  It doesn't make sense.  Therefore, there is no clear winner.  Let's just forget everything.  These aren't the logs you are looking for...  And nevermind CNN did the same test and demonstrated Broder was full of shiat.  Hey, Squirrel!
 
2013-02-20 05:40:52 PM  
I like how PM reports that everyone else that tried this test made it from A to B without any problems...but then says it's part Tesla's fault because the reporter was too dumb to listen to their instructions.  Yes, that makes perfect sense.

/reporter just wanted sensational article, imo
 
2013-02-20 05:41:46 PM  

ha-ha-guy: The fact Musk had an issue with the speed and the climate seems to imply that "max range mode" is bordering on "limp mode" for highway driving. I just want to see someone else get a Tesla, take it out on the highway and provide what you have to so the car makes it 150 miles. After that it should be clear if the Tesla can do what Musk says it can or if you're limping along in the far right lane with your flashers on.



Actually, I think what Musk had a problem with was that what the journalist wrote and what the data logs said did not match up. Considering that other journalists have replicated the trip with very different - and less sensationalistic/smeary - results is a good indication that he was right to protest the article.
 
2013-02-20 05:44:03 PM  

Carth: oh_please: Carth: oh_please: gibbon1: I mean sure, an electric car won't have the range or quick replenishment of go juice that a gasoline car does. But whatever. Broder's a retard. I'd say like my brother, but if my brother had an electric car he would very carefully make sure it was always fully charged before going for a drive.

Good point, but I get the idea that Tesla saw this article as an opportunity to sell the car as something that it wasn't. Broder was an asshole for not following directions.

Here's the thing: If I'm driving a car that was promised to go x miles, and when things go wrong, I have to get on the farking phone with a team of engineers, and they blame it on the fact that I circled a parking lot 3 times, and I should wait till the weather got warmer, guess what? That car ISN'T READY YET!

and if the problem was you couldn't read a 30 page manual that tells you to switch the care into max range mode? Still not ready or user error? What if your car has 30 miles of gas but you have a 60 mile trip? are you going to hope behind the wheel and go anyway then complain when you don't make it?

I said above that Broder was an asshole for not following directions. Tesla wanted to use this as an opportunity to say, "hey, go take a trip, don't worry about that whole range thing".  It failed miserably, because Broder did not follow the EXACT directions Tesla gave him. If a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter, the car is NOT READY.

And, no, nobody's going to hope behind the wheel. That's why the technology is NOT READY.

Except Musk, or anyone else at Tesla, never said that in any of the articles I've seen. Do you have a link with that quote about or are you just making up things to prove a point you've already decided.

Where are you getting "a consumer has to follow 15 directions to the letter"?Is that just hyperbole or are there actually 15 specific instructions they asked him to follow.


Of course it's hyperbole, but more than 4 things that takes the average consumer out of their comfort zone shows it's not ready. It may as well be 15, doesn't matter.

I'm not letting Broder off the hook, he didn't follow directions, but Tesla claiming that part of the problem is that he circled the parking lot repeatedly, well, that's just admitting your car isn't ready for what you claimed it would be. Tesla tried to get some pub in a strictly controlled environment, and when that didn't work out, they went all WHAAAAH to the press.

That tech is absolutely the future, but everyone looks like assholes here.
 
2013-02-20 05:44:57 PM  

Shanghai_Flyer: The Final Word? Well Joe Don Baker is here to give you ...

[upload.wikimedia.org image 220x334]
You think you can take me? It's your move...you go ahead on


I wonder if there's beer on the sun?
Heart pound'n
Veins clogg'n
 
2013-02-20 05:56:50 PM  
When I read the headline, I was trying to decide if it referred to the band or the engineering.
The car company never entered my mind.

/Acura is making a new NSX. in Ohio. soon.
 
2013-02-20 05:59:17 PM  

Carth: Rixel: BuckTurgidson: Whatever, Popular Mechanics, where the hell's my flying car?

Here you go

Will run you around 300K though, once production starts.

It also requires a pilots license thank god.


And a paid-up life insurance policy for when the wings turn out to be attached with sheet metal screws.
 
2013-02-20 06:03:50 PM  

ha-ha-guy: hasty ambush: "Vice Chairman Takeshi Uchiyamada, the "father of the Prius" who helped put hybrids on the map, said he believes fuel-cell vehicles hold far more promise than battery electric cars.

Hydrogen can offer an energy density up to 8x what batteries can do right now and 3x to 5x that of gasoline, depending on who is promising what.

That said there are still storage and refueling issues with hydrogen.  At least with electric you can just plug into a wall and wait at the very worst.  With hydrogen, some municipalities have hydrogen stations for their fleet vehicles, but overall it is rare.

Someone is going to have to demonstrate methanol conversion (or something else) on an industrial viable scale and come up with a credible plan for how you're going to be able to refuel the sucker.


Gasoline stations were also  rare to non-existent when the first automobiles came out.
 
2013-02-20 06:13:00 PM  

SkunkWerks: And of course it wouldn't hurt if we stations weren't charging ridiculous amounts for [Diesel fuel] here in the states.  I still make it up in mileage, and possibly wear and tear, but really?  It's a byproduct of refining gasoline.  Leftovers.


Diesel fuel is not a by product of refining gasoline. Desulferization of North American and Venezuelan crude oil is not free. Finally, complain to your elected officials about the amount of excise taxes on motor fuels and their inequity between different fuels.


hasty ambush: Gasoline stations were also  rare to non-existent when the first automobiles came out.


So were paved roads.
 
2013-02-20 06:13:00 PM  

JohnnyRebel88: They are quite sharp looking and would love to have their sports model, but I forget the name, but it reminded me of a Lotus Esprit.  I read an article that said the could get up to 300 miles without a charge, and this was 2 years ago.  I guess they are trying to surpass this MPC (miles per charge?) that limited them a couple years ago.  First nice looking car that runs on batteries IMO.


Roadster. It reminds you of a Lotus Esprit because it is, basically, an electric Lotus Esprit. 240-ish miles between charges if you crawl, about 160 miles between fast charges (an hour to 80%) at UK motorway speeds, about 60 miles if you're hammering it on a racetrack - which, considering how much petrol conventional sports cars use doing similar stunts, is pretty damn good.

Downside are that they are cramped, uncomfortable, have a horrible ride, cost a fortune to buy and need fifty grands' worth of battery every five years or so.
 
2013-02-20 06:16:38 PM  

reductive: Fascinating how nobody but Broder talks about the part where Broder spoke directly with managers and engineers half a dozen times over two days. If Tesla's own people advised Broder to do what he did, can we really attribute his behavior to stupidity? It's not clear whether Broder is misrepresenting what his contacts at Tesla were telling him, because Musk and the press simply ignore this point.


There were claims in a previous thread that Tesla sacked at least one of the people who was advising Broder. I have no idea if this is correct and would welcome assurance that it is not..
 
2013-02-20 06:19:57 PM  

oh_please: NY Times writer decides to write an article on the Tesla, arranges a road trip. Tesla tells him that he has to do 15 (or so) things to make the car work right. Writer agrees, doesn't do the 15 things, then writes an article slamming Tesla, while conveniently omitting that he didn't do the 15 things. In other words, he ignored most of the advice, and drove it like a regular person would drive it. Car dies.


Writer claims he did just what Tesla representatives told him. Electric car fans say he should have done something different. Tesla curiously silent on what their people told him, fail to release recordings of calls. Meanwhile, nobody denies that the charge shown fell by about 80% overnight on a cold night, and that recovering from that was the central problem.
 
2013-02-20 06:23:03 PM  

MrSteve007: I'll do a *one day* road-trip from Seattle to San Francisco (800 miles) and I'm sure I'll keep hearing from farkers that it's impossible for an affordable electric car to be used for road trips.


You'll do it at sixty miles per hour, with a one hour recharge stop every three hours, giving you an average speed of 45mph. That's certainly not impossible, but it is perhaps a little impractical.

/would love an electric car
 
2013-02-20 06:25:29 PM  

fredklein: They weren't "dead wrong' The car still went 50+ miles after showing 32 miles of charge.


Indeed. The issue seems to mixed: the cold weather seems to have caused some loss of charge and the charge level was inaccurately reported. Neither of these things is good.
 
2013-02-20 06:33:33 PM  
His article and journey were complete fabrications, and Tesla proved it. That's what the meat of this is.

What he did would be like me draining all the oil out of a vehicle before taking it on a long road trip in hot temperatures, pretending i didn't, and telling everyone the car just broke down because it was bad. He got caught red-handed, and his word and journalistic integrity are now worthless.

The fact that this article is trying to save his career when he is so obviously in the wrong just goes to show that whoever persuaded him to do it can also persuade people at Popular Mechanics.
 
2013-02-20 06:35:20 PM  

J. Frank Parnell: His article and journey were complete fabrications, and Tesla proved it.


Are you claiming that he never made the trip?
 
2013-02-20 06:46:03 PM  

MrSteve007: Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.


Where do you live that highway traffic is only 60 mph? A blue state? If I wanted to drive at 60 mph, I could take my old car VW with 47 hp instead of my new one with 200, and even then I do 65. The new one gets the same fuel economy at 10 mph faster. Ah, progress.

Normal human being? We're Farkers. We're abnormal. (Not wearing diapers on the way to Florida abnormal, mind you, but still not normal.) I only stop when it's time to refuel, and since I've got a VW, that's between 420 and 480 miles, over 6 hours at a stretch. Ah, the joys of bachelorhood.
 
2013-02-20 06:54:46 PM  

Yoyo: MrSteve007: Driving a Tesla 300 miles at 60 mph is 5 hours of driving. If you're like any normal human being, you'll be taking a piss & food break every 2 1/2 hours or so, which would reduce the "super" charge time to 30 minutes.

Where do you live that highway traffic is only 60 mph? A blue state? If I wanted to drive at 60 mph, I could take my old car VW with 47 hp instead of my new one with 200, and even then I do 65. The new one gets the same fuel economy at 10 mph faster. Ah, progress.

Normal human being? We're Farkers. We're abnormal. (Not wearing diapers on the way to Florida abnormal, mind you, but still not normal.) I only stop when it's time to refuel, and since I've got a VW, that's between 420 and 480 miles, over 6 hours at a stretch. Ah, the joys of bachelorhood.


Most of Interstate 5 in Washington state is 60mph (with some areas at 70). Once you hit Oregon though, it's 55mph.
 
2013-02-20 07:21:35 PM  
Subby, you dun failed. It ain't THE final word, it's PM's final word, 'a final word' ... it is far from over and PM isn't the judge.

No points.

And -1 for not spellchecking.

Who the hell greenlit this?
 
2013-02-20 07:46:24 PM  

orbister: fredklein: They weren't "dead wrong' The car still went 50+ miles after showing 32 miles of charge.

Indeed. The issue seems to mixed: the cold weather seems to have caused some loss of charge and the charge level was inaccurately reported. Neither of these things is good.


ALL batteries lose charge when cold. This is not "not good" - it just is.

And the charge level WAS accurately reported. The battery cannot foretell the future- it does not know it will be warmed up, and thus have more charge. When he unplugged it, it had ~30 miles of charge. As it warmed up ('conditioned'), it gained more charge, enough to go ~50 miles in the end.

Doesn't change the fact he was an idiot to unplug it when it didn't have enough charge to get to his destination.
 
2013-02-20 07:55:18 PM  

orbister: Writer claims he did just what Tesla representatives told him. Electric car fans say he should have done something different. Tesla curiously silent on what their people told him, fail to release recordings of calls. Meanwhile, nobody denies that the charge shown fell by about 80% overnight on a cold night, and that recovering from that was the central problem.


To be fair, if you've ever worked tech support, you can EASILY see Tesla telling him one thing and him hearing another.  God, the number of times I've tried telling somebody something simple and had them later complain that I told them something outlandish...

Reporter: "It says 28 mile range when it said 90 last night"
Tech: "Take these steps, and it should warm the battery and restore the range"
Reporter: "OK, I took those steps and it's still not working"
Tech: "OK, go and charge for about an hour and it should work"
Reporter charges for an hour and drives away despite big numbers on dashboard displaying insufficient range
Reporter: "OMG TESLA LIED TO ME THEY SAID IT WOULD MAKE IT"

So, yeah, my read is that a problem with that particular car caused the battery to lose range in the cold overnight, and the usual fixes didn't work, but it looks like he then went and ignored what the car was telling him and was surprised when the car knew what it was talking about.  He also lied about his speed by about 8 mph, which just confirms what all techs know - users LIE, and they usually believe their own lies.

Also, to address a flaw in your post, the charge didn't fall by 80%.  When he parked he had 90 miles range, and it dropped to just under 30, which yes, is a third of the range from the night before (and a drop of only 66% range), but NOT an 80% drop.  The actual charge percentage shown on the telemetry when he parked it was around 38%, and fell to 30% before he started driving again, reaching ~22% at Norwich.
 
2013-02-20 08:34:38 PM  

DemonEater: To be fair, if you've ever worked tech support, you can EASILY see Tesla telling him one thing and him hearing another. God, the number of times I've tried telling somebody something simple and had them later complain that I told them something outlandish...


Exactly my point. The car is not ready for the masses. When was the last time you had to call tech support for your car?

Every schub is used to getting in the car, turning the key, and, bingo, it works. Now, if you have to get used to figuring outside temp, when you can turn your heater on, range anxiety, etc, it's not ready yet.
 
2013-02-20 08:34:46 PM  

DemonEater: orbister: Writer claims he did just what Tesla representatives told him. Electric car fans say he should have done something different. Tesla curiously silent on what their people told him, fail to release recordings of calls. Meanwhile, nobody denies that the charge shown fell by about 80% overnight on a cold night, and that recovering from that was the central problem.

To be fair, if you've ever worked tech support, you can EASILY see Tesla telling him one thing and him hearing another.  God, the number of times I've tried telling somebody something simple and had them later complain that I told them something outlandish...

Reporter: "It says 28 mile range when it said 90 last night"
Tech: "Take these steps, and it should warm the battery and restore the range"
Reporter: "OK, I took those steps and it's still not working"
Tech: "OK, go and charge for about an hour and it should work"
Reporter charges for an hour and drives away despite big numbers on dashboard displaying insufficient range
Reporter: "OMG TESLA LIED TO ME THEY SAID IT WOULD MAKE IT"

So, yeah, my read is that a problem with that particular car caused the battery to lose range in the cold overnight, and the usual fixes didn't work, but it looks like he then went and ignored what the car was telling him and was surprised when the car knew what it was talking about.  He also lied about his speed by about 8 mph, which just confirms what all techs know - users LIE, and they usually believe their own lies.

Also, to address a flaw in your post, the charge didn't fall by 80%.  When he parked he had 90 miles range, and it dropped to just under 30, which yes, is a third of the range from the night before (and a drop of only 66% range), but NOT an 80% drop.  The actual charge percentage shown on the telemetry when he parked it was around 38%, and fell to 30% before he started driving again, reaching ~22% at Norwich.


What you're saying is correct, at least in terms of ratios, but remember in comparison to the battery's overall range, when he parked at night, it had about 38% of a full charge, in the morning (before he drained another 5% of the battery via sitting there with the heat on), it showed 32%. In reality, letting the battery get cold overnight, initial voltage dropped only a few percentage points. Had he just started driving, it would have warmed up the battery internally, and given him much more range, vs. sitting still and trying to heat the cabin for an hour.
 
2013-02-20 10:57:25 PM  

Carth: I agree with you. Did you read the reports from CNN and the 9 other Tesla drivers last week who did the same trip ? Most of them kept their cars between 72-76 degrees, had their speed vary between 60-75 and they all made it. The only significant differences were they enable  range mode and it was 10 degrees warmer during their overnight stay (CNN didn't stop overnight but the other drivers did).


I could see the 10 degrees thing making a difference, with the batteries slung on the bottom of the chassis they don't get a lot of protection (not there is anywhere on a car that stays warm at night).  During actual driving the battery pack might be exposed to colder temps than some other electric car designs.  Most cars though are designed with the thought they'll be parked indoors and on a charger at night or at the very least a carport.  After all the owner should have some kind of charger station they go and hook up to.

Be interesting to see some test data.  The Volts were taken up to Minnesota and Canada for cold weather testing and at some point they have problems as well. After -13 F things things get squirrel.  As one engineer said at least you get the consolation of everyone else has shiat on their car frozen as well by that point.

What may have done the Tesla in was that most plugin hybrids or electric heat themselves if you leave them plugged in overnight.  IIRC the Times guy just left the sucker in the lot and went to bed.  Should have had it on 120v so it could keep the battery pack warm.  Basically it sounds like if you plan on using the Supercharger and then not leaving it plugged in overnight you have to go visit the Supercharger and top off after a cold night.  That wasn't conveyed an led to issues.
 
2013-02-21 12:26:31 AM  

ha-ha-guy: Where did I ever claim the entire gas stop was 1 minute? If you read up thread I provided a floor of 10 minutes for the total stop. Although if you hit a service plaza with a good card reader and modern pumps you can do 3 minutes. That is about what you're supposed average if you're doing a Cannonball.


I've timed gas stops on road trips. It, if it's just me, I can stop at a gas station, start the pump, pee and wash the windows in 5 minutes.  If someone is with me it's ten minutes.  If that someone is a girl or a pot head it's half an hour.
 
2013-02-21 01:29:36 AM  

MrSteve007: Most of Interstate 5 in Washington state is 60mph (with some areas at 70). Once you hit Oregon though, it's 55mph.


Just keep your Mr. Fusion over there in the right lane, daddy-o, and we'll get along just fine.
 
2013-02-21 04:01:11 AM  
I don't understand one thing: can't you charge this car at any old electric outlet? Like at a motel or McDonalds somewhere? As far as I understand the supercharger stations are merely a convenience to charge the car faster, not a necessity.
 
2013-02-21 05:22:20 AM  

kazikian: I don't understand one thing: can't you charge this car at any old electric outlet? Like at a motel or McDonalds somewhere? As far as I understand the supercharger stations are merely a convenience to charge the car faster, not a necessity.


When the supercharger is taking on the order of half an hour to an hour for a full charge, think about how much longer it would take to charge at a generic wall outlet.

If you can plug the car in overnight, that's a different story.
 
2013-02-21 06:46:57 AM  
It looks like malice to me.

He never even charged the car up.  28%, in once case, then he quit charging it.  If you don't even attempt to fully charge the car, then whining "OMG, the car didn't make it, I had to get towed" looks like malice.

If I went to test a Ford F-150 pickup by driving from Dallas to Las Vegas, and I took off with half a tank of gas, then whining about "I got to west Texas and ran out of gas, it's Ford's fault" would be stupid.
 
2013-02-21 08:45:28 AM  

Yoyo: Desulferization of North American and Venezuelan crude oil is not free.


Didn't say it was.

Yoyo: Finally, complain to your elected officials about the amount of excise taxes on motor fuels and their inequity between different fuels.


Didn't suggest they weren't involved either.  It's cheaper in Europe.  Do I think it's possible that this has a lot to do with taxes, politics and likely out-and-out graft and corruption?

Yes.  Very yes.

Either way, it's a lot more expensive than it needs to be.

Yoyo: So were paved roads.


I know you're not responding to me, but since it was there: And?

He was making a point that the "success" of gasoline cars is largely built around an infrastructure adapted specifically to support them, and to do so with convenience.  Not sure how this observation disputes or alters that assertion any.
 
2013-02-21 08:57:16 AM  
The 'real meat of this' is in the support conversations. The summary of the controversy basically is:

"I took off without a full tank of gas. I know the MPG is about 22, I had two gallons, I was 62 miles from the next petrol station, and I was totally told that I could stop refueling now and drive onto the next one. AND I RAN OUT OF GAS. This proves this 'car' isn't ready for the big time."

Now, if we take his story on faith, the proper conclusion is that the NYT is full of idiots, and the Tesla support people he talked to are idiots. Meanwhile, we do have proof that Broeder half-assed his notetaking; he wasn't driving at the speeds he claimed. (The climate control thing is pretty much a non-entity; what he said didn't perfectly match up to what he did, but it came more then close enough to accept good intentions.)


But really. NYT reporter being a moron is beyond controversy at this point. If he did any of this with a gas car you'd call him an idiot. And he would've.
 
2013-02-21 08:59:18 AM  
3 companies argue over just how dead a dead end technology actually is.
 
2013-02-22 05:08:40 PM  

Mithiwithi: kazikian: I don't understand one thing: can't you charge this car at any old electric outlet? Like at a motel or McDonalds somewhere? As far as I understand the supercharger stations are merely a convenience to charge the car faster, not a necessity.

When the supercharger is taking on the order of half an hour to an hour for a full charge, think about how much longer it would take to charge at a generic wall outlet.

If you can plug the car in overnight, that's a different story.


I know it would take a long time, but if it's that or stranded...
I'm asking: it is an option, yes, to charge at ANY outlet?
 
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