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(The Spectator UK)   What American hipsters think of Holland: weed, hookers, perfect Utopia of freedom. What Holland really looks like: underage runaways, sex trafficking, forced prostitution, the knowledge that you've become the armpit of Europe   (spectator.co.uk) divider line 386
    More: Sad, Runaways, Holland, human trafficking, Europe, forced prostitution, freedoms, street prostitution, libidos  
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16699 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 10:03 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-20 04:53:03 PM  

Andromeda: Oooooh boy.

American living in Amsterdam here (for 1.5 years now) and let me tell you, the city does not resemble what the article paints it like at all.  Only time I ever see prostitutes is if a friend is visiting and just HAS to see the Red Light District/ a Fark party.  Nor have I as a woman been accosted going home as the article says, or anything like that.

I further find it telling that this article doesn't say how much more prevalent human trafficking is in the Netherlands than in other countries.  I would be curious to hear if it's much higher as of the last 10 years or so.


I hosted a student from Zoomvliet and she was sad to leave, but missed home. One of the guys made me promise to visit this year.
 
2013-02-20 05:15:36 PM  

Bastard Toadflax: Looks like the Dutch have lost their rudder.


Nope, he's still around, but looks nothing like this...

www.eurosoccerfans.com
 
2013-02-20 05:21:07 PM  

stevetherobot: doglover: I'm pretty sure you can find sex slaves in America. Underage hookers as well. Not to mention the gun violence. Europe's not much better. And I don't care HOW nice Germany gets, you don't get a free pass for fueling the two largest wars in history in a mere century just because your economy looks good now.

Glass houses, etc.

80% of Germans are under age 65, meaning they were born after the last world war. I think it's fair to give them a pass on fueling the two largest wars in history.


100% of Americans were born after pushing the Indians almost into extinction and slavery was abolished but yet I have to hear about how evil I am because of it, especially because I happened to be born in the Southeast.
 
2013-02-20 05:27:24 PM  
Amsterdam has a population of 800,000 inhabitants. On 1 January 2012, the ethnic makeup of Amsterdam was 49.5% Dutch and 50.5% foreigners.
...
Today, people of non-Western origin make up approximately one-third of the population of Amsterdam, and more than 50% of children.


24.media.tumblr.com
 
2013-02-20 05:29:21 PM  
Sensationalist hack journalism is sensationalist and hacky.

There's zero numbers or facts in this article. It doesn't state if there are more underaged runaways or trafficking or forced girls in a legal/decriminalized system when compared to a place where prostitution is illegal. If it is a problem, it's not stating why. Is it because authorities don't enforce the laws? Is it due to organized crime? Is there a lack of legal and community services for the prostitutes?

Also, how come no one's asking the prostitutes what's working and what isn't? Surely they would be able to say if things are better or worse and why?
 
2013-02-20 05:39:50 PM  

Dinjiin: Andromeda: But then I've never met a Canadian who didn't have an urge to sew their flag on their bag

I've noticed the same thing in both Asia and Europe. If you see somebody with a national flag sewn into their clothing, it is typically a Canadian flag. Nobody else seems to do it to the same degree.


Andromeda: "no, but the Canadians throw such hissy fits if we mistake them that it's better to assume everyone is one because Americans are nice and don't offend easily."

The weird thing is that most Canadians are laid back and a generally a pleasure to be around when you meet them in Canada or when traveling in the States. But for some reason, Canadians who travel elsewhere always seem to have a stick up their arse.

When I traveled to Taiwan to visit a friend, we hit a few expat bars. The Aussies, Kiwis, Brits and Yanks were generally fun to hang around. But everyone seemed to have a general dislike of the Canadians, especially when a Yank showed up. They'd often overcompensate or just start ragging on the States in front of everyone.


/the "Ugly American" thing has kinda died down in Europe
//they've redirected their ire at the Chinese


Yeah, I generally love Canadians and Canadian people, but the over compensation by some  gets to be a little over the top traveling abroad sometimes... what with the maple leaf on the backpack, and the maple leaf shirt, and the maple leaf boxers and the maple leaf tampon dispenser, etc.    Many come off more nationalistic than the worst American redneck.    They seem to expect some sort of reverence from everyone else, as though everyone upon finding out that they're from Canada they're going to drop down to their knees and exclaim "Oh, thanks for being the COOL North American!!   Would you please allow me the honor of blowing you?"    I don't think the worst culprits realize the rest of the "Westerners" are laughing about them behind their back.     One of the worst experiences I've ever had with a fellow traveler was in Laos with a drunk from Vancouver  who would endlessly lecture me about the vulgarities and shallowness of American culture.  Finally I had to remind him that he lives 2 hours from Seattle and there's probably a reason why nobody can tell him apart from Americans until he corrects them.
 
2013-02-20 05:43:52 PM  

suggiethames: Let me guess , this article was written by some fundagelical from the American south who spends most of his time foaming at the mouth because the world doesn't kiss the ass of JEBUS as much as he thinks they should


Aside from being completely incorrect, sure.
Julie Bindel: British, female, feminist, lesbian.
 
2013-02-20 05:50:55 PM  

InmanRoshi: I generally love Canadians and Canadian people, but the over compensation by some gets to be a little over the top


There's a long history

images.cheezburger.com
 
2013-02-20 06:12:30 PM  

suggiethames: Let me guess , this article was written by some fundagelical from the American south who spends most of his time foaming at the mouth because the world doesn't kiss the ass of JEBUS as much as he thinks they should


Let me guess, you are an openly blatant bigot.
 
2013-02-20 06:22:50 PM  

suggiethames: Let me guess , this article was written by some fundagelical from the American south who spends most of his time foaming at the mouth because the world doesn't kiss the ass of JEBUS as much as he thinks they should


Let me guess, 2/10.  You'll get some nibbles.
 
2013-02-20 06:47:09 PM  
OH COME ON!
 
2013-02-20 06:56:36 PM  
Uh.  I've been to a lot of countries (not as many as our galpal Andromeda) as well as lived all over the US... I'm from Nashville, TN originally.

So, uh, not everyone from the south is a flaming, closeted, gun toting, bible thumping, Glen Beck worshiping, nazi-commie-socialist hating, bigot who despises other cultures.

...

Except people from Georgia.  Holy shiat they are out there!
 
2013-02-20 07:02:16 PM  
That's why "legalize it and tax it" would never work. Take away the stigma associated with prostitution and the demand goes through the roof. You still have to come up with the supply to meet that demand and no self-respecting woman would want "sex worker" on her resume, so the traffickers fill in that supply gap.
 
2013-02-20 07:18:12 PM  

gilgigamesh: The thing of it is, Vegas was able to legalize the sex trade without all these problems.  As far as I know.


I think it is illegal in Vegas.  Only certain rural counties in Nevada have legalized prostitution.
 
2013-02-20 07:22:46 PM  

hundreddollarman: That's why "legalize it and tax it" would never work. Take away the stigma associated with prostitution and the demand goes through the roof. You still have to come up with the supply to meet that demand and no self-respecting woman would want "sex worker" on her resume, so the traffickers fill in that supply gap.


You do realize that the women who would be willing to schtoop for cash either don't have or don't even know how to write a resume, yeah?
 
2013-02-20 07:33:27 PM  
I love it when lying, sex-hating feminists get together with lying, sex-hating conservatives and inflate crime stats to create the appearance of huge social problems and boogeymen, all so they can shame normal human sexuality and tell the rest of us what to do with our bodies.

It's like a black hole of hypocrisy.
 
2013-02-20 07:53:49 PM  
Dutch girls on bicycles trump everything that is bad about Holland.

Mildly Not Safe For Work video.
 
2013-02-20 07:54:32 PM  

Canned Tamales: I love it when lying, sex-hating feminists get together with lying, sex-hating conservatives and inflate crime stats to create the appearance of huge social problems and boogeymen, all so they can shame normal human sexuality and tell the rest of us what to do with our bodies.

It's like a black hole of hypocrisy.


You don't give up on trying to troll do you?
 
2013-02-20 07:57:04 PM  

Lucidz: hundreddollarman: That's why "legalize it and tax it" would never work. Take away the stigma associated with prostitution and the demand goes through the roof. You still have to come up with the supply to meet that demand and no self-respecting woman would want "sex worker" on her resume, so the traffickers fill in that supply gap.

You do realize that the women who would be willing to schtoop for cash either don't have or don't even know how to write a resume, yeah?


You do realize you're regurgitating a bad stereotype, no? Not all sex workers are drugged-up street walkers doling out handjobs for cash. Like that Zumba instructor, for starters. Then there's the stereotypical "stripper dancing to pay for college."
 
2013-02-20 07:58:30 PM  
If I understand this correctly, The Spectator stole a photo of German prostitutes (from 2009), to whine about Amsterdam prostitutes?

Or, is Amsterdam part of Germany again?

http://dalje.com/en-world/berlin-brothel-offers-discounts-for-cyclis ts /270125
 
2013-02-20 08:05:08 PM  

hundreddollarman: Lucidz: hundreddollarman: That's why "legalize it and tax it" would never work. Take away the stigma associated with prostitution and the demand goes through the roof. You still have to come up with the supply to meet that demand and no self-respecting woman would want "sex worker" on her resume, so the traffickers fill in that supply gap.

You do realize that the women who would be willing to schtoop for cash either don't have or don't even know how to write a resume, yeah?

You do realize you're regurgitating a bad stereotype, no? Not all sex workers are drugged-up street walkers doling out handjobs for cash. Like that Zumba instructor, for starters. Then there's the stereotypical "stripper dancing to pay for college."


What are you ranting about?  If she's stripping only, she's not banging people for money, or at least not supposed to be...  And I don't know anything about the Zumba instructor, but regardless, I doubt anyone puts stripping or whoring on a resume.  Or Zumba on the resume for that matter...

And I've seen some escorts in Vegas driving WAY nicer cars than me.  Good on them for making money off the IRS' radar.  But do you think many of them are working on their resume or planning out their 401k?  Most of them are just enjoying a crazy life and spending time (and money) buying shoes and doing blow...

I'm sorry if that's regurgitating a stereotype but even in the stripper world the "dancing for college" line is mostly a load of crap.  I've been to my share of strip clubs, dated enough strippers, and talked with enough hookers (never bought, probably wouldn't) to have what I consider a realistic handle on it...
 
2013-02-20 08:08:10 PM  

BrotherEarth: If I understand this correctly, The Spectator stole a photo of German prostitutes (from 2009), to whine about Amsterdam prostitutes?

Or, is Amsterdam part of Germany again?

http://dalje.com/en-world/berlin-brothel-offers-discounts-for-cyclis ts /270125


I think that's a stock photo, but it's kind of scary that you recognized it.
 
2013-02-20 08:26:22 PM  

gilgigamesh: Vodka Zombie: Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: But yeah, forced/underaged prostitution is awful too. DNRTFA, but I thought that place was pretty tightly regulated.

It is.  I think people are taking a lot of the really bad things about Copenhagen, Denmark, and trying to apply it to Amsterdam in an attempt to disparage an entire country.

Perhaps.  The article is pretty light on facts.

The thing of it is, Vegas was able to legalize the sex trade without all these problems.  As far as I know.


True, I've never any signs of organized crime operating in Vegas.
 
2013-02-20 08:37:56 PM  
I lived in Holland for a summer doing research in architecture school. The Red Light district was a cool place where you could swing in, see people farking live on stage, maybe rip a joint and bang a hooker. It was a strangely magical place where vice was allowed and to a degree celebrated, but it didn't consume the city. Outside the clearly defined borders of the Red Light District, it was a normal (albeit progressive) European city. It seems in the 17 years since then, the vice has become the primary reason people go there, which is sad.
 
2013-02-20 08:58:24 PM  

DECMATH: Vodka Zombie: I think people are taking a lot of the really bad things about Copenhagen, Denmark, and trying to apply it to Amsterdam in an attempt to disparage an entire country.

An entire country that doesn't border the country where Copenhagen is located.  Sounds a bit like taking the worst aspects of Vancouver BC to preach about the problems in Mexico.


They actually used to border, before Germany assimilated/stole the bit inbetween...

/Also, yanks think Copenhagen is the capital of Amsterdam
 
2013-02-20 09:07:50 PM  

theflatline: scumshine: Holland is a great place. I try to avoid American stoner tourists when I vist there - most of them act like farking assholes. Try getting out of Amsterdam, Holland is a fantastic place to explore and the people are nice.

Anyhoo, beats hell out of France.

The worst tourists in my experience are not americans.

1. Israelis, in groups of 1-2 they are fine, but anything more they reach critical mass and become drunken unruly louts, and unfortunately krav maga is always involved.
2. Canadians they always say "hi i am canadian, not american" and annoyingly refer to americans as yanks, they get drunk and unruly, or just do something assholeish and say "its cool dude, I am canadian".
3. Spaniards - they think everyone in latin america are inferior creatures but love banging the women there.


You forgot Russians... loud, disrespectful of everyone, flouting their wealth, taking _everything_ at an open buffet "BECAUSE IT'S FREE SO I CAN TAKE IT, DON'T TRY TO STOP ME!", even if they're not going to eat it. And ofcourse, their perpetual inebriated state, but that's probably redundant.
 
2013-02-20 09:43:21 PM  

Karac: gilgigamesh: The thing of it is, Vegas was able to legalize the sex trade without all these problems. As far as I know.

Prostitition is not legal in Las Vegas. Nevada laws on the matter differ from county to county; the ones which contain Vegas, Reno, and the majority of the population in the state do not allow it.

If fly to Vegas for the weekend and want to find a legal whore, you're going to need to rent a car, get directions, and drive for at least a half hour. If you want to do the same in Amsterdam, all you probably have to do is get on the subway.


Actually it's a matter of state law that Las Vegas and Reno do not have legal prostitution.  Otherwise it's left up to the county.

There are some reports of abuse from the brothels but nowhere near what you hear of on the street.

Karac: Interesting tidbit: several years ago, the Department of Defense added a regulation which outlawed members of the military hiring a hooker; even if doing so was legal under the local laws - even if that location was one of those brothel-friendly Nevada counties.

The theory behind this was that the odds of the girl being a trafficed sex slave were so high that it could be presumed that no prostitute anywhere in the world was able to consent to sex and hiring her would be tantamount to rape.


I wouldn't go quite that far but there's a good chance a third-world prostitute is enslaved.  It's not a certainty of rape but there is an undue risk it is.  First world, it's a matter of what level you're looking at.  At the low end she's probably enslaved, at the high end she's probably there of her own free will.
 
2013-02-20 09:48:25 PM  

doglover: And I don't care HOW nice Germany gets, you don't get a free pass for fueling the two largest wars in history in a mere century just because your economy looks good now.


Don't mention the war! (I did once, but I think I got away with it)
 
2013-02-20 11:49:19 PM  

silvervial: doglover: And I don't care HOW nice Germany gets, you don't get a free pass for fueling the two largest wars in history in a mere century just because your economy looks good now.

Don't mention the war! (I did once, but I think I got away with it)


If you're in a situation where you have to mention the War, the most acceptable way to do so is with charades.
 
2013-02-21 02:49:48 AM  

Dinjiin: The weird thing is that most Canadians are laid back and a generally a pleasure to be around when you meet them in Canada or when traveling in the States. But for some reason, Canadians who travel elsewhere always seem to have a stick up their arse.


I finally figured out that it was because the cool Canucks just plain don't talk at all about themselves. They're so overly polite that they'll just nod and have a conversation about whatever you want to talk about, while always steering the conversation away, and after an hour you'll finally find out where they're from and they'll be incredibly embarrassed about it. I have no idea if this is an Alberta thing - I meed an inordinate number of people from Calgary - but the Canadians who aren't blatant assholes are all like this to me.
 
2013-02-21 04:41:50 AM  
American Tfette living in NL (the Netherlands) and working in Amsterdam for 16 years: This is just bashing, plain and simple, probably written by someone with their knickers in a twist because UK customs caught them with a spliff in their back pocket when they went back home. I have dual citizenship and I vote in elections here. Almost every person I've seen drunk or high in all my years here has been American, British or French.

For the record, I don't drink much, I don't smoke at all and I even go to church once in a while. I also support legalised pot, legalised prostitution and gay rights. And, here, none of those things are incompatible with one another. This country has big problems, just like every other country, but having lived and worked here all these years, I cannot imagine that the problems referred to in this article are any worse here than they are in any other capital city or major urban conglomerate. Certainly I've seen far more vulgar (and violent) things in New York and London than I have ever seen here.
 
2013-02-21 05:45:24 AM  

Lucidz: What are you ranting about? If she's stripping only, she's not banging people for money, or at least not supposed to be... And I don't know anything about the Zumba instructor, but regardless, I doubt anyone puts stripping or whoring on a resume. Or Zumba on the resume for that matter...

And I've seen some escorts in Vegas driving WAY nicer cars than me. Good on them for making money off the IRS' radar. But do you think many of them are working on their resume or planning out their 401k? Most of them are just enjoying a crazy life and spending time (and money) buying shoes and doing blow...

I'm sorry if that's regurgitating a stereotype but even in the stripper world the "dancing for college" line is mostly a load of crap. I've been to my share of strip clubs, dated enough strippers, and talked with enough hookers (never bought, probably wouldn't) to have what I consider a realistic handle on it...


I can see why the only ones who'd date you were the ones that fell into your stereotype. Besides that, what does anyone you dated in the US have to do with legal Dutch prostitution?
 
2013-02-21 06:03:10 AM  
"What American hipsters think of Holland: weed, hookers, perfect Utopia of freedom. What Holland really looks like: underage runaways, sex trafficking, forced prostitution, the knowledge that you've become the armpit of Europe"

I don't see the difference?

*ba-da-dum-ching!*
 
2013-02-21 12:35:07 PM  
So, some professional scold says legalizing prostitution in Amsterdam has been a disaster, but doesn't bother to cite any sources. I guess lesbian activists are so trustworthy on the topic of men paying for sex that there's no reason for her to need to directly cite any studies, court cases or authorities.
 
2013-02-21 02:55:00 PM  

Teknowaffle: Andromeda:
I have traveled as a backpacker to 50+ countries over the years, and the most curious thing for me was how in many countries people would ask first if I was a Canadian.  I'd say no, American, and ask if they were more common, and the answer was always universally "no, but the Canadians throw such hissy fits if we mistake them that it's better to assume everyone is one because Americans are nice and don't offend easily."

But then I've never met a Canadian who didn't have an urge to sew their flag on their bag, nor an American who had an urge to sew a Canadian one despite Canadians' insistence that this happens.  What can you do, eh?

I have met Americans who have done the flag sewing/pretending to be Canadian (and Canadians overcompensating). If you are going to a place like Cambodia or Laos, I can understand the reasoning. I mean, Americans bombed the shiat out of them for no reason other than they were near Vietnam. But if you are in Europe? fark off and accept you are an American. They won't spit on you.

Most American's I have met who have done this I have always thought "well, it is better you pretended to be Canadian as you kinda suck and America gets a bad enough rep as it is. The only person I know of who has done this in Europe that pissed me off is my wife's best friend. She didn't understand why I had such a problem with it. I put it bluntly as she is the person who should be representing the United States. She is culturally sensitive, quiet, observant, respectful, a genius (she helped build Ice Cube) and all around a great person. She is a boon to our image abroad.


I have usually introduced myself as from New York City in Europe. in Paris it was very helpful, as most Parisians dream of visiting/living in New York City.
 
2013-02-21 09:48:01 PM  

dumbobruni: Teknowaffle: Andromeda:
I have traveled as a backpacker to 50+ countries over the years, and the most curious thing for me was how in many countries people would ask first if I was a Canadian.  I'd say no, American, and ask if they were more common, and the answer was always universally "no, but the Canadians throw such hissy fits if we mistake them that it's better to assume everyone is one because Americans are nice and don't offend easily."

But then I've never met a Canadian who didn't have an urge to sew their flag on their bag, nor an American who had an urge to sew a Canadian one despite Canadians' insistence that this happens.  What can you do, eh?

I have met Americans who have done the flag sewing/pretending to be Canadian (and Canadians overcompensating). If you are going to a place like Cambodia or Laos, I can understand the reasoning. I mean, Americans bombed the shiat out of them for no reason other than they were near Vietnam. But if you are in Europe? fark off and accept you are an American. They won't spit on you.

Most American's I have met who have done this I have always thought "well, it is better you pretended to be Canadian as you kinda suck and America gets a bad enough rep as it is. The only person I know of who has done this in Europe that pissed me off is my wife's best friend. She didn't understand why I had such a problem with it. I put it bluntly as she is the person who should be representing the United States. She is culturally sensitive, quiet, observant, respectful, a genius (she helped build Ice Cube) and all around a great person. She is a boon to our image abroad.

I have usually introduced myself as from New York City in Europe. in Paris it was very helpful, as most Parisians dream of visiting/living in New York City.


I always introduce myself as from Boston (which is true). Probably safer to do that overseas than in some parts of the US.
 
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