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(Economist)   Evolution taught humans to stand upright to see over the savannah...except we started standing upright before the savannah came about. You win this round Creationism. But just wait until we talk about the appendix   (economist.com) divider line 43
    More: Interesting, evolution, savannahs, creationisms, grasslands  
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6817 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 8:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-20 08:38:21 AM  
8 votes:
If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!
2013-02-20 08:40:58 AM  
6 votes:
To her surprise, they (grasslands) seem to have been there even 12m years ago
Dr Feakins has shown that early humanity's east African homeland was never heavily forested


Subby can't read.

Anyway, I remember reading something about walking upright being an adaption to free up the use of hands/arms for carrying food and children.
2013-02-20 08:57:53 AM  
5 votes:
Human beings are so egocentric.  Hell, we even believed that the sun revolved around us.  And even at this point, many people still can't believe that there's intelligent life out there.  We're the most important, smartest, most adaptive, awesome creatures the universe has ever seen.

Want to hear the tiniest little laugh ever?  Tell a horseshoe crab how awesome you are.  It's been around for 445 million years.  Doesn't make the 200,000 years that homo sapiens have walked the earth seem that impressive does it?  And if you want to go back to earlier forms of humanoid, go ahead.  It still doesn't amount to much.

And so, with our tremendous knowledge and experience, we assume that walking on two legs is the evolutionary forward pass.  Wrong!  Doesn't it strike you as a little odd that the majority of mammals move about on four legs?  And the fossil records taken from mud imprints indicate that around 2.3 million years ago the homo habilis (one of the earliest human forms) actually hoped around on one leg.  These early creatures could be knocked over by a strong breeze.  They couldn't outrun anything.  As a species, they were doomed to failure.

Then came the homo erectus, the first two legged human-like mammal.  Two legs proved superior to one, but they were still no match for their four legged predators.  The four legged animals were more stable, stronger, faster, and smarter.  Why smarter?  They had more complete diets because they were apex predators.  Humans were mostly living off scraps and unprocessed grains at that point - not exactly brain boosters.

Then came the asteroid impact that triggered the massive volcanic eruptions.  The two legged creatures that were able to climb trees were able to escape the lava.  The four legged creatures were not.  That simple good-luck twist of fate moved human beings up the evolutionary ladder, but we're still on a path to evolve into four legged creatures.

Think about how much more you sit than your grandparents did.  Sitting is not a far cry from crawling.  In a few dozen generations, we'll laugh at pictures of people like Oscar Pistorius, with their fools goal of two functional legs.

Bottom line, don't assume that you are on the upswing of your species evolutionary path.  You're probably going extinct anyway.
2013-02-20 08:46:50 AM  
4 votes:

gadian: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.


How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?
2013-02-20 09:50:36 AM  
3 votes:
One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.
2013-02-20 09:17:45 AM  
3 votes:
lh5.googleusercontent.com
2013-02-20 08:40:41 AM  
3 votes:
except we started standing upright before the savannah came about.

Reading fail.
2013-02-20 10:07:34 AM  
2 votes:

dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.


This theory has been discredited, much to the displeasure of its very loud and butthurt proponents. Lots of those "fact" such as fat distribution are misinterpretations. See  http://www.aquaticape.org/
2013-02-20 09:58:28 AM  
2 votes:

dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.


That theory also explains our weak sense of smell, not needed as much with an aquatic lifestyle...
2013-02-20 09:07:22 AM  
2 votes:

Graffito: God Is My Co-Pirate: Yet Darwin has no transitional evidence or solid foundation what so ever.

I hate that argument.  Every time a transitional form is discovered some window-licker comes along and asks, "well, what about the 2 new holes in the fossil record?"


felipec.files.wordpress.com
Flying Spaghetti Monster: Hey, Professor, I'm a Flying Spaghetti Monster. You seriously believe I've descended from some kind of flightless manicotti?
Farnsworth: Yes!
Banjo: Oh, please. A far more logical explanation is the undisprovable science of Creatureism. All life was created in its present form seven thousand years ago, by a fantastical creature from outer space!
Farnsworth: Bunk!
Banjo: Oh! If you elitist, East Coast evolution is real, why has no one found the missing link between modern humans and ancient apes?
Farnsworth: We did find it! It's called Homo erectus!
Banjo: Then you have proven my case, sir, for no one has found a link between apes and this Homo erectus.
Farnsworth: Yes, they have! It's called Homo habilis!
Banjo: Ah-ha! But no one has found the missing link between ape and this so called Homo habilis.
Farnsworth: Yes, they have! It's called Australopithecus africanus!
Banjo: Oh-ho! I've got you now!
[time passes]
Banjo: Fair enough, but where, then, is the missing link between apes and this Darwinius masillae? Answer me that, Professor!
Farnsworth: Okay, granted, that one missing link is still missing, but just because we haven't found it doesn't mean it doesn't exist!
Banjo: Things don't exist simply because you believe in them. Thus sayeth the Almighty Creature in the Sky!
2013-02-20 08:51:10 AM  
2 votes:

God Is My Co-Pirate: Yet Darwin has no transitional evidence or solid foundation what so ever.


I hate that argument.  Every time a transitional form is discovered some window-licker comes along and asks, "well, what about the 2 new holes in the fossil record?"
2013-02-20 08:45:23 AM  
2 votes:

gadian: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.


Yeah, I know about that, that info was in gospels that were not put into the Bible.

Much like the Crucifixion.  There is not a detailed account about that, but Christians in 14th century Europe ginned up the tale in order to blame the Jews for the Black Plague.
2013-02-20 08:44:31 AM  
2 votes:
First I'll join the line of people telling <b>subby</b> they are an idiot

Second, one form of the "grasslands impacted our evolution towards bipedalism" was that they coincided with one another. As referenced at the very end of the article, there was nothing in the most general formulation of the hypothesis that precludes human ancestors moving in to the grassland as a new niche and adapting to it. We see that sort of thing happening all of the time.
2013-02-20 08:43:03 AM  
2 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.
2013-02-20 08:40:45 AM  
2 votes:
"The tide goes in, the tide goes out: you can't explain that!"

-- Some stupid old guy who has his own TV show
2013-02-20 02:06:59 PM  
1 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


The only "logical" answer:

i651.photobucket.com
2013-02-20 12:49:13 PM  
1 votes:
The article writer is so blindingly stupid that they forgot that according to the jesus freaks, the African savannah has always been there.

How's that for a conundrum?
2013-02-20 12:09:38 PM  
1 votes:
api.ning.com
2013-02-20 12:01:55 PM  
1 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


Our holy father Prometheus created us from the soil of Mother Earth. Adam and Eve is just a myth created by apostates.
2013-02-20 11:33:39 AM  
1 votes:

gadian: there was a land of God's failed creations...


www.yellowmaps.com
2013-02-20 10:59:17 AM  
1 votes:

Baryogenesis: To her surprise, they (grasslands) seem to have been there even 12m years ago
Dr Feakins has shown that early humanity's east African homeland was never heavily forested

Subby can't read.

Anyway, I remember reading something about walking upright being an adaption to free up the use of hands/arms for carrying food and children.

guns.

FTFY
2013-02-20 10:34:58 AM  
1 votes:
It wasn't because of the grass, it was because of our thumbs.

The more we started using our thumbs, the less we wanted to walk on our hands.
2013-02-20 10:26:42 AM  
1 votes:

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Ostman: Baryogenesis: To her surprise, they (grasslands) seem to have been there even 12m years ago
Dr Feakins has shown that early humanity's east African homeland was never heavily forested

Subby can't read.

Anyway, I remember reading something about walking upright being an adaption to free up the use of hands/arms for carrying food and children.

Not exactly. The adaptation wasn't intended to do anything before it happened. Natural selection just favoured those that had it, in that particular climate and time, and it became the norm after those without the adaptation died out as they couldn't effectively compete. Or, alternatively, they branched off into a different species after migrating to another area.
I know it seems like a small nitpick, but I think it's fairly important.

/No matter what Star Trek might have said, evolution isn't on a pre-determined path with certain milestones along the way.
//Also, disclaimer, I'm not a scientician. I just play one on the internet

NOT a small nitpick and is VERY important. It's the difference between evolution as "random mutation that ends up being passed along because those with the mutation survive better" and "evolution as response to environment (i.e.: Lamarkism). HUGE difference.

However, the concept of random mutation DOES raise an interesting question. Presumably any random mutation would appear in one and only one member of the species. To think otherwise would be to strain the laws of probability. With only one individual, doesn't that raise some of the same questions as those asked about Adam and Eve's children?

Answer me that, Darwinists!

/For the record, I'm a huge believer in Darwinian Evolution.
//But the above question does bother me.


Not necessarily. Genes turn off and on over the course of your life. So let's say someone gets a random mutation but it doesn't express itself. For all intents and purposes this person is just like every other. They breed, their progeny inherit the trait. This goes on for X number of generations and spreads through a portion of the gene pool. Then, for whatever reason (right grouping of chromosomes, new environmental factors etc) the mutant gene turns on. Now a whole subset of people express the adaptation that has lain dormant in the population. If that subset is large enough, it won't suffer inbreeding even if they have a significant advantage from this "new" mutation.

/I hope that answers your question
//I am not a biologist
2013-02-20 10:14:43 AM  
1 votes:

stonicus: dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.

That theory also explains our weak sense of smell, not needed as much with an aquatic lifestyle...


Sharks beg to differ.
2013-02-20 10:02:50 AM  
1 votes:

clane: Time Begins?  says who?
[www.gentilsalaud.com image 768x710]


Time magazine. Says so right there in the lower-right corner!
2013-02-20 09:29:04 AM  
1 votes:

Ostman: Not exactly. The adaptation wasn't intended to do anything before it happened. Natural selection just favoured those that had it, in that particular climate and time, and it became the norm after those without the adaptation died out as they couldn't effectively compete. Or, alternatively, they branched off into a different species after migrating to another area.
I know it seems like a small nitpick, but I think it's fairly important.


This.  We didn't evolve opposable thumbs for the purpose of using tools. Tool use was the effect, not the cause.
2013-02-20 09:16:42 AM  
1 votes:

gadian: Slackfumasta: How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?

I didn't tell the story, I don't know.  His angels apparently sucked too, given the rebellion and all.  Maybe the guy isn't handy with the tools.

proteus_b: Adam and Eve were not Jewish... Abraham was the first Jew.

It was either a Jewish mom joke or a joke about the ex wife sexing up the kids.


To be fair, God was sick that day and couldn't attend "How to recognize and stop potential angel rebellions" lecture
2013-02-20 09:14:51 AM  
1 votes:

nmemkha: jaggspb: nmemkha: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Its an allegory genius. Dumb Christians of the Sky Wizarding World are smart enough to figure that out, so what does that say about you?

I get a kick out of those people that say yes this particular story is an allegory but Jesus soooooo definitely walked on water for realz!!!!eleventy

A first hand account of an event is far different than a fable. Surely you can spot key differences in the two narratives.


very true so was Jesus nonchalant about it or was he all "hold my wine and watch this" when you witnessed him doing that?
2013-02-20 09:10:19 AM  
1 votes:

jaggspb: nmemkha: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Its an allegory genius. Dumb Christians of the Sky Wizarding World are smart enough to figure that out, so what does that say about you?

I get a kick out of those people that say yes this particular story is an allegory but Jesus soooooo definitely walked on water for realz!!!!eleventy


A first hand account of an event is far different than a fable. Surely you can spot key differences in the two narratives.
2013-02-20 09:08:59 AM  
1 votes:
I find amusing how some atheists fall all over themselves advocating for the existence of extraterritorial life, despite the fact we have zero proof that life exists anywhere in the universe except for Earth.

Their views on the subject are no more based on actual hard evidence than some theist expounding "God did it!".

/I want to believe
2013-02-20 09:08:23 AM  
1 votes:

kitsuneymg: Which sects of Christianity actually still have the bit about Lilith in their holy book? I know it's not in most protestant texts. Do Catholics have it?


I actually heard all this from a Rabbi and I still don't know if he was just yanking my chain with most of what he was saying.  He was just summarizing some different interpretations of the origins of humanity.  I don't know anything about the Christian take on any of it or if any of it was ever an "official" part of any religion.  He did also say that no one ever seriously suggested Christ was immaculately conceived until many centuries after his death.
2013-02-20 09:03:18 AM  
1 votes:

gadian:
Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.


Which sects of Christianity actually still have the bit about Lilith in their holy book? I know it's not in most protestant texts. Do Catholics have it?
2013-02-20 09:01:29 AM  
1 votes:
The scientific method demands that cause and effect is observable and repeatable.
Sorry evolutionists, but faith is what binds believers and non believers together. We just have faith in opposing theory's.
2013-02-20 08:58:00 AM  
1 votes:
Remember, disproving one theory of evolution of man does not prove creationism, as this still happened millions of years ago.  So before the trolls go wild, or the dnrtfas spout off - the fact that the humanoids standing happened and was not correlated with the Savannah doesn't mean man was created out of dust and magic 6000 years ago.
2013-02-20 08:57:35 AM  
1 votes:

Slackfumasta: gadian: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.

How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?


Disobedient giraffes
2013-02-20 08:57:02 AM  
1 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?
Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Some explain that even if they were doing what would be considered incest to populate the world, it wouldn't be considered incest back then, as they were "pure" by God's standards, so it doesn't count.  Read the story of Lot and his two daughters.  There's supposed to be an important lesson to be learned from that, and the only thing I get is "If you're going to have sex with your father, the oldest daughter gets first dibs."

Slackfumasta: gadian: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?
Answer me that, Jesus freaks!
Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.
How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?

There were multiple, contradictory versions of the Bible.  Heck, the first chapter of Genesis and the second chapter of Genesis contradict each other on how humans were created.  So it's possible there's a  version of the Bible that talks of this stuff.
2013-02-20 08:50:22 AM  
1 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


God.

QED.
2013-02-20 08:49:06 AM  
1 votes:

gadian: Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other. I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages. Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.


Adam and Eve were not Jewish... Abraham was the first Jew.
2013-02-20 08:48:55 AM  
1 votes:
Uh, subby? The article states that the idea that the reduction of forests into savannahs leading to walking upright is likely incorrect, not because we walked upright first, but because the savannah basically existed in some form long before we walked upright. You kinda got it backwards.

FTA: "Close examination of the cores shows that the nature of the grass changed over the millennia, as species that were adapted to dry conditions took over from those that prefer wetter weather, but savannah of some form there always was.

The climatic change she observed was already known about. It was the reason people suspected forests had given way to savannah. But, contrary to that suspicion, Dr Feakins has shown that early humanity's east African homeland was never heavily forested, so the idea that people were constrained to walk upright by the disappearance of the forests is wrong."
2013-02-20 08:48:08 AM  
1 votes:
A PHD in geology and a BA in Geography.
It's not like she has a time machine and photographic proof.
It's more like speculation on her part.
Wild, wild speculation.
Alas, it is backed up with more research and proofs than any biblical story of cockamamie proportions.
2013-02-20 08:41:40 AM  
1 votes:
You got it backwards, subbo. TFA is saying that the grasslands were there first.
2013-02-20 08:41:35 AM  
1 votes:

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


Mommie and sons were sexing each other up when daddy wasn't looking?
2013-02-20 08:39:35 AM  
1 votes:
That's some great 4th grade thinking right there.
 
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