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(Economist)   Evolution taught humans to stand upright to see over the savannah...except we started standing upright before the savannah came about. You win this round Creationism. But just wait until we talk about the appendix   (economist.com) divider line 238
    More: Interesting, evolution, savannahs, creationisms, grasslands  
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6813 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 8:35 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-20 10:40:50 AM

Lee451: How did symbiosis/symbiants evolve? Answer that, Darwinians!


Here's one example: Mitochondrion.

But for the lazy, here is a Wikipedia article about Symbiosis and evolution.
 
2013-02-20 10:41:28 AM

Fano: Slackfumasta: gadian: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other.  I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.  Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.

How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?

Disobedient giraffes


I'm gonna start a Emo band, just so I can use that name.
 
2013-02-20 10:43:37 AM

Baryogenesis: walking upright being an adaption to free up the use of hands/arms for carrying food and children.

  smart phones and ipads.
 
2013-02-20 10:44:33 AM

genner: Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!

They had more than two kids and yes Cain married his sister.


And the reason we don't do that anymore is because of random genetic mutations over a long period of time.
 
2013-02-20 10:45:36 AM

Slackfumasta: How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?


God has a sense of humor. Look at our duck-billed, beaver-tailed, egg-laying venomous platypus friends. I have a feeling he just threw a bunch of darts at a dart board to find out what traits it should have.
 
2013-02-20 10:47:28 AM

proteus_b: gadian: Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other. I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages. Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.

Adam and Eve were not Jewish... Abraham was the first Jew.


So he had to cut his own foreskin off, ouch!
 
2013-02-20 10:50:08 AM
gadian:  He did also say that no one ever seriously suggested Christ was immaculately conceived until many centuries after his death.

Hopefully because the immaculate conception does not refer to Jesus, it was Mary that had to be immaculately conceived in order for Jesus to be born free from original sin.
 
2013-02-20 10:51:02 AM

Graffito: clane: Time Begins?  says who?
[www.gentilsalaud.com image 768x710]

Time requires the existence of mass which implies the existence of space.  The big bang, as the theory goes, was the origin of mass and space and time.


No it doesn't. It's perfectly possible to describe an empty space time containing no mass or energy.

Conversely, it is true that in most mainstream theories, the Big Bang was the origin of time and space as well as the creation of mass/energy, but that's not a necessity. Lots of cosmologists are interested in theories in which the Big Bang is in fact a Big Bounce -- previous universe collapses, is instantaneously* zero in size, then begins to expand again looking exactly like a Big Bang. In some variants the universe is not completely zero, because of quantum effects. In both scenarios, although time and space are recreated anew, the mass/energy is the same from one universe to the next, and there might even be "imprints" from previous cycles that might allow a test of this idea.

Unfortunately, it turns out to be devilishly difficult to get from "wouldn't it be cool if the universe were cyclic?" to actual models that work quantitatively, not least because the details of quantum gravity become critical close to the singularity.

*For certain values of instantaneous. One of the problems with Big Bounce theories is understanding how to get through a pure singularity: when both space and time vanish, it's hard to understand how the system "continues" and time resumes. QM may come to the rescue.
 
2013-02-20 10:54:00 AM

grokca: proteus_b: gadian: Not a Jesus freak, but I think that the story goes that Adam and Eve had many, many children who all married each other. I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages. Obviously, no self-respecting Jewish mother would let her kids marry from God's rubbish bin, but there you go.

Adam and Eve were not Jewish... Abraham was the first Jew.

So he had to cut his own foreskin off, ouch!


Yes he did...
 
2013-02-20 10:54:01 AM
Often evolutionary changes occur randomly and with no particular purpose; changes that are not necessarily beneficial or detrimental. When changes in the environment suddenly favor those random changes, the species is extraordinarily equipped to survive.
 
2013-02-20 10:59:17 AM

Baryogenesis: To her surprise, they (grasslands) seem to have been there even 12m years ago
Dr Feakins has shown that early humanity's east African homeland was never heavily forested

Subby can't read.

Anyway, I remember reading something about walking upright being an adaption to free up the use of hands/arms for carrying food and children.

guns.

FTFY
 
2013-02-20 10:59:33 AM

Ishkur: It wasn't because of the grass, it was because of our thumbs.

The more we started using our thumbs, the less we wanted to walk on our hands.


We needed our thumbs to roll the grass, so it was the grass.
 
2013-02-20 11:00:29 AM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: However, the concept of random mutation DOES raise an interesting question. Presumably any random mutation would appear in one and only one member of the species. To think otherwise would be to strain the laws of probability. With only one individual, doesn't that raise some of the same questions as those asked about Adam and Eve's children?


What "random mutation" are you referring to?  The ability to control metal?  It's a very long process.  The changes are not that radical in individuals.
 
2013-02-20 11:03:29 AM

Gandalf_is_dead: Hopefully because the immaculate conception does not refer to Jesus, it was Mary that had to be immaculately conceived in order for Jesus to be born free from original sin.


Yeah, I've used immaculate conception incorrectly.  I meant the whole virgin-birth thing.
 
2013-02-20 11:05:10 AM

dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.


THIS! I always liked this theory instead of the Savannah theory.
 
2013-02-20 11:06:53 AM

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


From the book of Genesis:

And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth. And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters. And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.
 
2013-02-20 11:06:57 AM

shortymac: dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.

THIS! I always liked this theory instead of the Savannah theory.


Maybe God is Aquaman!
 
2013-02-20 11:09:35 AM
spentmiles:
Then came the asteroid impact that triggered the massive volcanic eruptions.  The two legged creatures that were able to climb trees were able to escape the lava.  The four legged creatures were not.  That simple good-luck twist of fate moved human beings up the evolutionary ladder, but we're still on a path to evolve into four legged creatures.

How did the trees escape the lava?
 
2013-02-20 11:14:23 AM

1000 Ways to Dye: spentmiles:
Then came the asteroid impact that triggered the massive volcanic eruptions.  The two legged creatures that were able to climb trees were able to escape the lava.  The four legged creatures were not.  That simple good-luck twist of fate moved human beings up the evolutionary ladder, but we're still on a path to evolve into four legged creatures.

How did the trees escape the lava?

 
2013-02-20 11:14:58 AM
Picture of Ents walking fail!
 
2013-02-20 11:19:35 AM
1000 Ways to Dye:

How did the trees escape the lava?

The trees were immune to the lava. Surely you've heard of a volcanic ash.
 
2013-02-20 11:26:45 AM

mrinfoguy: The scientific method demands that cause and effect is observable and repeatable.
Sorry evolutionists, but faith is what binds believers and non believers together. We just have faith in opposing theory's.


Surely you can't mean that believing in "dark matter" or "dark energy" makes about as much sense as believing that the Jesus was the son of "God" sent to Earth to "save" mankind?

We don't know shiat, and anyone that claims we do is a straight up liar.

If you believe ANY "theory" about creation, be it "scientific" or "divine powers", your dumb ass is doing so based on FAITH and not FACT.
 
2013-02-20 11:28:16 AM

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


Want to guess how everyone knows you've actually never read Genesis?
 
2013-02-20 11:28:50 AM

sylwedydd: All these theories portend to the fact no one really knows anything - creationistas or evolutionistas. It is evident that there are those people inhabiting any particular time in history who think they 'KNOW' exactly as things are, when in fact nothing is really known. Both sides are mostly made up of inventinistas..Their need for certainty is merely a warm blanket they wrap themselves in; assurance that things are 'OK'. And of course the masses climb under the blanket too. Herd mentality.

/Now, would you please pass the parmesan and can I have some more of that delicious bordello too.


Seeing a bacteria develop the ability to use citrate as a nutrient source (over 20k+ generations while living on a citrate rich but normal nutrient poor media) when they did not originally have that ability seems like a text book case of evolution to me. I would like to see creationists provide some support of their theory that comes even close to that.
 
2013-02-20 11:33:39 AM

gadian: there was a land of God's failed creations...


www.yellowmaps.com
 
2013-02-20 11:44:00 AM
I can't imagine what advantage walking upright would have?

Oh, yes I can.

redroom.com
/yay evolution
 
2013-02-20 11:46:00 AM

KingsleyZisou: However, the concept of random mutation DOES raise an interesting question. Presumably any random mutation would appear in one and only one member of the species. To think otherwise would be to strain the laws of probability. With only one individual, doesn't that raise some of the same questions as those asked about Adam and Eve's children?Answer me that, Darwinists!


Over time most of the species will end up with a sufficiently positive trait, and they will all be partially descended from the same mutant in most cases - after about 40 generations every individual is descended in part from virtually every individual that had any surviving progeny 40 generations ago - this is why virtually everyone with any European heritage is probably descended from Charlemange, because of the exponential rise in descendants as each generation passes, in much the same way as the old story about the grain of rice on the first square of a chess board, doubling it for each square, and way before you get to the last square on the board you have more grains of rice than have ever been grown in history. Generally it will take many more that 40 generations for a trait to truly dominate unless it has exceptionally strong survival implications, of course.
 
2013-02-20 11:49:42 AM

gadian: I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.


Wait...the bible has a land of misfit toys?
 
2013-02-20 11:52:51 AM

trappedspirit: gadian: I've also heard contradictory stories saying that there was a land of God's failed creations where Adam's first wife went off to live and that that's where the outside blood came from in the kid's marriages.

Wait...the bible has a land of misfit toys?


Not quite. I believe the OId Testament makes a reference to a Land of Misfit Goys.
 
2013-02-20 12:01:55 PM

Jake Havechek: If Adam and Eve only had 2 kids, both boys, and one killed the other, where did all the humans come from?

Answer me that, Jesus freaks!


Our holy father Prometheus created us from the soil of Mother Earth. Adam and Eve is just a myth created by apostates.
 
2013-02-20 12:09:38 PM
api.ning.com
 
2013-02-20 12:10:59 PM
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

LULZ, they are so sad and lonely
 
2013-02-20 12:11:15 PM

Gandalf_is_dead: gadian:  He did also say that no one ever seriously suggested Christ was immaculately conceived until many centuries after his death.

Hopefully because the immaculate conception does not refer to Jesus, it was Mary that had to be immaculately conceived in order for Jesus to be born free from original sin.


But if Mary could be immaculately conceived, why not immaculately conceive Jesus?

This one makes about as much sense as Muslims belief that Jesus was switched bodies with Judas.

ie: If you are going to just *poof* make jesus ascend to heaven afterwards, why not just *poof* him before he he/judas was crucified.

I've asked on this one, and I get the same 'it is best not to question' that I get when I ask how some fundy why we can see galaxies that are obviously more than 5000 years away.
 
2013-02-20 12:16:21 PM

1000 Ways to Dye: spentmiles:
Then came the asteroid impact that triggered the massive volcanic eruptions.  The two legged creatures that were able to climb trees were able to escape the lava.  The four legged creatures were not.  That simple good-luck twist of fate moved human beings up the evolutionary ladder, but we're still on a path to evolve into four legged creatures.

How did the trees escape the lava?


They were petrified trees.  Being made of stone, they were immune to the effects of the lava.
 
2013-02-20 12:16:33 PM

Nutsac_Jim: Gandalf_is_dead: gadian:  He did also say that no one ever seriously suggested Christ was immaculately conceived until many centuries after his death.

Hopefully because the immaculate conception does not refer to Jesus, it was Mary that had to be immaculately conceived in order for Jesus to be born free from original sin.

But if Mary could be immaculately conceived, why not immaculately conceive Jesus?


Technically, Jesus wasn't conceived at all, since there was no man involved. It was more of a possession.
 
2013-02-20 12:27:19 PM
I knew we were all descended from meerkats
 
2013-02-20 12:27:35 PM

gadian: Slackfumasta: How could God possibly have 'failed' creations?

I didn't tell the story, I don't know.  His angels apparently sucked too, given the rebellion and all.


Angels can't rebel. They don't have free will.
 
2013-02-20 12:28:49 PM

I drunk what: [encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 194x259]

LULZ, they are so sad and lonely




I'm sure your breakroom is full of hookers and blow.
 
2013-02-20 12:33:15 PM

StoPPeRmobile: I drunk what: [encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 194x259]

LULZ, they are so sad and lonely

I'm sure your breakroom is full of hookers and blow.


of course it is, i'm an atheist so my junk is 10' long and women adore me, because i own science

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comencrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-20 12:35:54 PM
Spandex disproves Creationism

God did not create Spandex, chemists Sandquist and Shivers did at Dupont. They should be memorialized for one of Mankind's greatest evolutionary leaps.

thechive.files.wordpress.com
 
2013-02-20 12:36:25 PM

gadian: I'm just peeved that evolution never saw fit to bestow upon us prehensile tails.  Not for any weird yiffing sort of reason, but I've always thought have a prehensile tail would be awesome.


You can have a tail or you can have gluteals but not both. But, yeah, that would be kind of cool.
 
2013-02-20 12:37:05 PM

WippitGuud: Nutsac_Jim: Gandalf_is_dead: gadian:  He did also say that no one ever seriously suggested Christ was immaculately conceived until many centuries after his death.

Hopefully because the immaculate conception does not refer to Jesus, it was Mary that had to be immaculately conceived in order for Jesus to be born free from original sin.

But if Mary could be immaculately conceived, why not immaculately conceive Jesus?

Technically, Jesus wasn't conceived at all, since there was no man involved. It was more of a possession.


Jesus was an extra terrestrial.  OR myth between us non-retarded groups
 
2013-02-20 12:40:23 PM

shortymac: dennysgod: One interesting theory was this: We had a aquatic past.

Humans are the only primate with blubber, a thin layer of fat attached to the skin (and I'm not talking about the too many cheeseburger kinda fat). The only other mammals to have this are those that live all, or most of the time in water, otters, sea-lions dolphins, etc. Also most of these water living mammals have their hips tilted more vertically, like ours do, to make them more streamline for swimming, ours we now use to walk upright. So the theory goes is that at some point in our evolution we took to the shallows and lived a semi-aquatic life style. Other evidence for this is our larger brains, seafood is rich in protein, brain food. Also our noses stick out and are not flat like our chimpanzee cousins which works great at diverting water away from the nostrils when diving. Plus when they mapped out the hair follicles they are arrange to be hydrodynamic.

THIS! I always liked this theory instead of the Savannah theory.


Anyone who really accepts the savanna theory should be forced to try to survive, butte nekkid and without any tools, on African savanna for 72 hours. "See better" my hairy white butt.
 
2013-02-20 12:41:03 PM

mechgreg: I_C_Weener: The point still stands. The appendix is where we put this nonsense to rest!

I would say the widsom teeth are where we put this nonsense to rest. I mean why the hell did I (and millions of other people) have these completely useless molars in the back of my mouth when my jaw wasn't even big enough to let them grow in probably. And why do some people not have them? Unless of course our ancestors from a long long time ago had bigger jaws, and needed those extra teeth because they didn't really have a whole lot of choices in what they ate (and needed extra teeth as back up since they didn't have dentists and losing molars could be a bigger problem). And then of course as we evolved our jaw got smaller but in some people the number of teeth hasn't evolved yet.


In the past your teeth would fall out and those were the backups.
 
2013-02-20 12:42:51 PM

fredklein: NJR_ZA: fredklein: Erix: fredklein: FTFA: "Plants in rainforests tend to discriminate against ¹³C. Those in modern African grasslands are less selective and ¹³C is thus more abundant in their molecules."

Um...

Um?

Isotopes are chemically identical, so plants would not be able to differentiate between them.

Almost, but not quite chemically identical. Search for "Kinetic isotope effect" and "Isotopic signature in plants", also "C3 carbon fixation" and "C4 carbon fixation"

Huh. You learn something new everyday.


If it makes you feel any better, I'm in the same boat. I just assumed any difference in structure would be trivial to plant uptake. That'll be a good one for bar trivia.
 
2013-02-20 12:45:25 PM
There's living in Savannah, though.

www.world-guides.com

 
2013-02-20 12:45:32 PM

Farce-Side: I_C_Weener: The appendix is where we put this nonsense to rest!

So the answers to the question of how we came to be lies in a useless organ that many people have removed due to it's propensity to become infected?

Who knew?


Just do a basic internet search. Here's just a couple of recent articles on the purpose of the appendix:

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2009/09/17/your-a pp endix-is-useful-after-all.aspx

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/21153898/#.USUK21rthj0

And the conversation continues...
 
2013-02-20 12:48:59 PM

mechgreg: I_C_Weener: The point still stands. The appendix is where we put this nonsense to rest!

I would say the widsom teeth are where we put this nonsense to rest. I mean why the hell did I (and millions of other people) have these completely useless molars in the back of my mouth when my jaw wasn't even big enough to let them grow in probably. And why do some people not have them? Unless of course our ancestors from a long long time ago had bigger jaws, and needed those extra teeth because they didn't really have a whole lot of choices in what they ate (and needed extra teeth as back up since they didn't have dentists and losing molars could be a bigger problem). And then of course as we evolved our jaw got smaller but in some people the number of teeth hasn't evolved yet.


Um, because there were no dentists back in caveman days and teeth fell out or were damaged. Therefore, getting a new set of back molars to replace possibly rotten/damaged ones makes some sense.
 
2013-02-20 12:49:13 PM
The article writer is so blindingly stupid that they forgot that according to the jesus freaks, the African savannah has always been there.

How's that for a conundrum?
 
2013-02-20 01:03:53 PM
If creationism is true how come animals aren't still magically appearing? :D

Creationism is just a theory. :D

Nature put the cambrian explosion into the fossil record in order to test our rational ownership of Science.  Evolutiondidit. :D

Creationism is the tinfoil hat theists wear to keep logic out of their brainwaves.  ~sir arthur of camelot
 
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