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(NPR)   Almost anything can be purchased online, except a new car from an Internet-only dealership. Turns out sleazeball dickwad car dealership owners are in bed with sleazeball dickwad politicians, thus ensuring you're screwed forever   (npr.org) divider line 324
    More: Obvious, internet, National Automobile Dealers Association, AutoNation, state sales tax  
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11618 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 2:00 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



324 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-02-20 12:08:34 AM  
Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.
 
2013-02-20 12:21:48 AM  
Journalism, it used to exist.

Not so much now . . . . . . .

///slashies
 
2013-02-20 12:37:24 AM  
At least I can still buy my buggy whips online.

http://www.buggy-whips.com/store/
 
2013-02-20 12:53:56 AM  
It's not news
 
2013-02-20 01:54:39 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news


Anything that drives public awareness of this mockery of the free market is a good thing.
 
2013-02-20 01:59:53 AM  

Babwa Wawa: MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news

Anything that drives public awareness of this mockery of the free market is a good thing.


Ok, then

/more people will be aware that nothing is going to change
//call me cynical, if you will
 
2013-02-20 02:05:37 AM  
I bought my last car from a guy with one eye. Sadly, he was not a pirate.
 
2013-02-20 02:06:07 AM  
I'd still need a real test drive. Same reason you don't buy sex toys online.
 
2013-02-20 02:08:44 AM  
So, you're saying a pack of elderly lawmakers and obscure laws are making your life miserable?

/ welcome to the modern era; where things can't ever, ever, EVER; be simple.
 
2013-02-20 02:10:10 AM  
I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday
 
2013-02-20 02:10:27 AM  

iheartscotch: So, you're saying a pack of elderly lawmakers and obscure laws are making your life miserable?

/ welcome to the modern era; where things can't ever, ever, EVER; be simple.


Especially not if there's money involved

/and there's always money involved
 
2013-02-20 02:10:49 AM  
Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.
 
2013-02-20 02:13:07 AM  
I bought my last new car through Cars Direct in 2003 and it was the easiest experience I ever had.   The way it works out is you order it from there and pick it up at a participating dealership.   It's a done deal and they are not allowed to mess with you.   I walked in, signed papers and drove out.    At the time the going price for most cars on there was $500 over invoice minus any factory incentives etc available, which for my car were very substantial (always buy at the end of Dec for good deals...) and I got a really great deal.

I hate...hate HATE car dealers and I want nothing to do with them.      I can barely stand to go to one for a test drive.

I bought a truck a few years ago used from a private party and it was a much better experience, how it ought to be.   I guess I chose well because both that car and the truck have given me nothing but great service.   

I had previously purchased a car in 1998 through a dealer the traditional way and got taken to the cleaners...fairly young and naive, did not make that mistake twice.

Car shows are a good place to do everything but take a test drive. You can usually narrow it down to one or two models just by sitting in them and going through them inside and out.  Do that first, go take a test drive then back online to order the car.
 
2013-02-20 02:14:15 AM  

weave: Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.


my dealership was sleazy as hell during the sale, but their service is cheap and unpushy.  I am waiting for the other shoe to drop.
 
2013-02-20 02:14:50 AM  
By law I think dealerships should have to pay you a monthly fee to put one of their farking stickers on your car if you buy it from them. You could opt out of them putting the sticker on your car, in which case they wouldn't have to pay.

I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.
 
2013-02-20 02:15:33 AM  

JohnnyC: By law I think dealerships should have to pay you a monthly fee to put one of their farking stickers on your car if you buy it from them. You could opt out of them putting the sticker on your car, in which case they wouldn't have to pay.

I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.


That and the license plate frame.
 
2013-02-20 02:15:47 AM  
How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?
 
2013-02-20 02:17:18 AM  
Also, I noticed as of late some banks and credit unions are offering no hassle car negotiation services, that come with a loan through said institution.  The loan for my truck is 2.99% through a credit union, pretty damn awesome.  They are one of the ones offering that service.
 
2013-02-20 02:17:44 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


This reminds me, I need to open an Internet store that sells bricks and mortar.
 
2013-02-20 02:17:57 AM  

Trocadero: I'd still need a real test drive. Same reason you don't buy sex toys online.


Where do you shop that they let you test drive your sex toys?
 
2013-02-20 02:18:19 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


This isn't just about online competition.  This is about ANY competition at all.  The rules designed to raise the cost of market entry for car dealers wouldn't be tolerated in many other industries.
 
2013-02-20 02:21:22 AM  
If you buy a new car from the floor salesmen at the dealership, you're DOING IT WRONG and will pay a sucker premium.
 
2013-02-20 02:21:26 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?


[morbo.jpg]

The Commerce Clause does not work that way!
 
2013-02-20 02:21:41 AM  

gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday


It is very possible. i have sober this, and was never even threatened
 
2013-02-20 02:23:24 AM  
So dealerships have legislated their way into no going the way of Bestbuy.  Essentially a showroom for an online store.

There is one problem with this though.  You NEED a test drive to decide if you really want to live with a car.  I don't NEED to test drive a laptop.  Reviews are good enough.  For a car no one is going say in a review how the seats fit my ass or if the steering wheel doesn't adjust quite enough to see all the gauges clearly.

But there is a second problem with this.  The dealer invariably never has a car with all the options you want. They may have one with more options that you don't want to pay for or one with less options where you would be sacrificing something you wanted.  So you just end up ordering the car you want anyway.  Unless a dealer doesn't order cars, in which case you leave because they really didn't want to sell you a car any way.

I have never bought a car off of a lot.  Every time I've had to order.  I have also decided I really wanted a car only to test it and then decide I hated it.  Or really wanted to test it and there wasn't one available to test anywhere nearby.

Repubs scream about needless govt regulation.  This is actually an example of it.  Let people buy a car anyway they want.
 
2013-02-20 02:23:56 AM  
In 1998, I was training to be a car salesman and someone asked about the possibility of selling cars online.  My trainer answered it with "No, not really a good idea."  and then he mentioned that you can't test drive a car online.  Last time I went car shopping, there were a few cars that I looked at, thought they were decent, then I sat inside the car and thought "Oh fark no." When you look at a car online, you see what the dealer wants you to see.  When you see a car in person, you see everything.

Here it is, 2013 and it's still the same.  If you're going to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt on a purchase, it's best to actually look at the car in person, test drive it, learn how all the different features work, etc...  Hell, buying current car and my wife's current car, had it been online only we probably would have purchased lemons.  The test drive allowed us to filter out the cars in piss poor condition, ones that had obvious problems (I'm 6'1", one car we got into, the seat adjuster was broken and the last person to adjust that seat apparently was 5'3". There was no way I could drive that car in that condition).  Now this was a used car dealership, which means you really want to test drive the car before purchasing.  And the salesman hated me.  I turned down test driving one car because the keyless entry remote didn't work.  (He said "It's probably just the batteries."  I said "Fix it and I'll take another look, if not I'll look at a car with all the features working."). But the same is true for new cars as well.  I enjoy watching Top Gear, and there have been a few times when they've test driven a car and mentioned just how cheap looking/feeling the car's interior felt.  There was one episode where Jeremy Clarkson was driving a Corvette and the upper part of the seat belt broke.  Hell, last summer I was working as a car salesman and drove every new car model on the lot and there were a few that I just didn't care for.
 
2013-02-20 02:29:12 AM  

JohnnyC: I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.


All you have to do is ask your salesperson that it be removed or not put on in the first place.
 
2013-02-20 02:31:04 AM  

Corn_Fed: If you buy a new car from the floor salesmen at the dealership, you're DOING IT WRONG and will pay a sucker premium.


Care to elaborate?
 
2013-02-20 02:31:16 AM  
That's why you should buy directly from private owners (read: overeager idiots) who have already taken it up the ass from these kind of practices. There are plenty of resources available to see if the car is a lemon or has been abused. Take a friend who knows about cars with you to look at it for some measure of additional peace of mind. Bypass the system and go past the obscenely inflated dealer price, past the somewhat inflated blue book price down to the actual value a car has for what it is.
 
2013-02-20 02:31:43 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


So? the internet was invented 40 years ago. And you can go to a library and use the computers for free.  Why do i care if someone who cant afford to walk into a free public building and use the free internet wants to buy a book or a car or whatever?
 
2013-02-20 02:35:10 AM  
eleventy thumbs up for / from me for hoty. well done.
 
2013-02-20 02:37:56 AM  
Buy car overseas.
 
2013-02-20 02:39:50 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


There are five book stores within walking distance of my apartment, and that's not counting academic sellers.  One of them is a barnes and noble, i.e. "borders with a different name".  Only someone that doesn't ever buy books would think that Amazon killed local bookstores.

Also, public libraries have internet connections that the public can use for free, and many cities have municipal wireless.  "You have to get on the internet to order" wouldn't actually be any real barrier to entry to begin with.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:02 AM  

RandomRandom: Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?



Why should they?

By maintaining the status quo, they retain their ability to con people into the most profitable car on the lot. Case in point, if you go to a dealer asking to see a specific model of car, they know you've researched that car, so they'll take you to every model BUT that car. And since many people make their decision the same day, especially in the case of "I can't guarantee I'll have this same price tomorrow", there's little chance of the customer researching the price or quality of the car they decide to buy.

On the internet, every possible advantage is eliminated. Checking the price and quality is just a new browser tab, there's no salespeople to tell you "how good you'll look in this car", there's no "boss" to broker a once-in-a-lifetime-deal that's actually $1500 higher than the sticker price of the same car in the next town over, etc.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:30 AM  

Popcorn Johnny: JohnnyC: I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.

All you have to do is ask your salesperson that it be removed or not put on in the first place.


Maybe so... I don't even want to be put in a position to ask. Really I prefer that the sticker never be put on unless they ask first (or those dumb license plate frames). For the most part I want as little actual interaction with the salesperson as possible. I just want to find the car I'm interested in, see a car history report on it, inspect the car, take it for a test drive, pay for it outright and never speak to them again. I find all dealerships to be sleazy and annoying. The sticker is only part of it.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the car dealerships don't like it when I just pay for the car in total. I've had more than one try to convince me to finance it even though I explained I was just going to pay for it in full. I imagine they must get some kind of kickback on the interest from the financing or something.
 
2013-02-20 02:43:01 AM  

gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday


I actually know why some lots are closed on Sundays.  Well, some states say that car lots must be closed on Sundays, others, like Texas, says it has to be either Saturday or Sunday.  The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

Car sales is a weird industry.  People only go to dealerships to buy cars, never because they have 30 minutes to spare.  Most of the time buyers know what car they want to buy when they go to the dealerships (exception are used car lots where the inventory changes day to day).  However, most car salesmen have a close ratio of less than 30%.  Mathematically, you'd look at the number of salesmen on the lot, the number of customers who visit, and figure that each salesman is closing one sale a day, at least.  But no.  Part of it is car salesman who starts off with "Can I help you?"  That phrase can instantly kill a sale.  And the other part are customers who have an odd problem with car salesman.  Which is really stupid.  The customer goes to buy a car, runs into a car salesman and says "Just looking." or runs off when a car salesman approaches.  That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.  (and, by the way, while a car salesman really shouldn't say 'Can I help you?', a Doctor is there is actually help you, so they can say it and not sound stupid).  And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.  If he/she gets caught in a lie, that sale is dead and there are zero referrals coming in.  If the lie is discovered after the sale is closed, then there is no more repeat business.  Again, sales relies on a repeat business as well as referrals.
 
2013-02-20 02:43:02 AM  

Great Janitor: In 1998, I was training to be a car salesman and someone asked about the possibility of selling cars online.  My trainer answered it with "No, not really a good idea."  and then he mentioned that you can't test drive a car online.  Last time I went car shopping, there were a few cars that I looked at, thought they were decent, then I sat inside the car and thought "Oh fark no." When you look at a car online, you see what the dealer wants you to see.  When you see a car in person, you see everything.

Here it is, 2013 and it's still the same.  If you're going to go tens of thousands of dollars into debt on a purchase, it's best to actually look at the car in person, test drive it, learn how all the different features work, etc...  Hell, buying current car and my wife's current car, had it been online only we probably would have purchased lemons.  The test drive allowed us to filter out the cars in piss poor condition, ones that had obvious problems (I'm 6'1", one car we got into, the seat adjuster was broken and the last person to adjust that seat apparently was 5'3". There was no way I could drive that car in that condition).  Now this was a used car dealership, which means you really want to test drive the car before purchasing.  And the salesman hated me.  I turned down test driving one car because the keyless entry remote didn't work.  (He said "It's probably just the batteries."  I said "Fix it and I'll take another look, if not I'll look at a car with all the features working."). But the same is true for new cars as well.  I enjoy watching Top Gear, and there have been a few times when they've test driven a car and mentioned just how cheap looking/feeling the car's interior felt.  There was one episode where Jeremy Clarkson was driving a Corvette and the upper part of the seat belt broke.  Hell, last summer I was working as a car salesman and drove every new car model on the lot and there were a few that I just didn't care for.


I can conceed to that point that looking at a car online isnt the same as sitting in it.   But what does this have to do with laws banning people who dont care?  And why couldnt a car company send a few display models to a small "test drive spot".. employ 2-3 dudes to let people test drive cars by appointment so they can make up their mind and order online.  Im sure it would end up saving everyone money.   These car dealers end up having jobs just to have jobs.
 
2013-02-20 02:43:28 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


7/10. This could get some bites.
 
2013-02-20 02:43:56 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?


Companies do this all the time. It's called rent-seeking.


Yogimus: Buy car overseas.


Sure. And end up with a car that was sent there because it was underwater for a week after Hurricane Katrina.
 
2013-02-20 02:44:02 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


That is the shiattiest false dichotomy that's ever existed, and I've been on the internet for quite a bit now.
 
2013-02-20 02:47:00 AM  

Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.


That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.
 
2013-02-20 02:53:02 AM  

fusillade762: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

Companies do this all the time. It's called rent-seeking.


Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Sure. And end up with a car that was sent there because it was underwater for a week after Hurricane Katrina.


... um... are you retarded?
 
2013-02-20 02:53:06 AM  

JohnnyC: Popcorn Johnny: JohnnyC: I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.

All you have to do is ask your salesperson that it be removed or not put on in the first place.

Maybe so... I don't even want to be put in a position to ask. Really I prefer that the sticker never be put on unless they ask first (or those dumb license plate frames). For the most part I want as little actual interaction with the salesperson as possible. I just want to find the car I'm interested in, see a car history report on it, inspect the car, take it for a test drive, pay for it outright and never speak to them again. I find all dealerships to be sleazy and annoying. The sticker is only part of it.

Sometimes I get the feeling that the car dealerships don't like it when I just pay for the car in total. I've had more than one try to convince me to finance it even though I explained I was just going to pay for it in full. I imagine they must get some kind of kickback on the interest from the financing or something.


Because when you finance the car the dealership makes more money from the interest.  If you pay a car in cash, they aren't going to knock much money off the price of the car if at all.  Get the car financed, and they'll be willing to knock more off the price of the car because they'll make it up through interest.  One of the first lessons I learned is that there is more mark up on a can of corn at the supermarket than there is on a new car.  To increase the profits, they want you to finance.  In 2005 I bought a new car for $10,000.  On a five year note, after a $1,000 down payment, I would have ended up paying over $25,000.  Smarter move is to take what you can afford as a monthly payment, save it for three years and use that as a down payment on a pre-owned car. There is almost no difference between the 2013 version of a car and the 2012 version, save for that the odometer reads.  But that year difference can mean thousands of dollars.  Worse, buy that car new, drive it off the lot, and it's pre-owned and lost most of it's value.  Buy it pre-owned and it doesn't lose all it's value instantly.
 
2013-02-20 02:53:50 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?


Because Congress has the power to regulate that which it subsidizes. The commerce clause is the PROBLEM, not the solution.
 
2013-02-20 02:56:42 AM  

JohnnyC: I find all dealerships to be sleazy and annoying.


You and the rest of the world. The worst part is when you meet with the financing guy. You can tell them no to an extended warranty and other extras 20 times and they'll still be trying to sell you one.
 
2013-02-20 03:01:47 AM  

PerilousApricot: Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.


The difference is that salesmen work on pure commission.  Restaurant/Retail employees are hourly.  In a pure commission environment everyone works 6 or 7 days a week.  If you're having a bad week, you work that seventh day in hopes of having a paycheck.  If you're having a good week, you tend to keep it going buy working that seventh day.  Having a law that says that certain industries, like car sales, must be closed one day a week means that no one is going to force themselves to work seven days, and the boss isn't going to expect anyone to work seven days a week.  Something else that happens in pure commission environments.

I've been in some places were the work week was just four days last sales appointment was at 7pm.  I've been to others were it was officially six days, but in reality it was seven days with the work day starting at 8am and being told that if you're home by 9pm you probably didn't make any money.

When everyone is paid hourly or salaried, the work week gets limited to 40 hours in most cases to avoid over time or comp time.  So the business can run seven days a week and the staff can have two days a week or more off (used to work retail.  One week put in almost 60 hours, next week lucking to put in 10 hours).
 
2013-02-20 03:03:29 AM  
If a person feels comfortable enough to buy clothes online, they'll likely feel comfortable enough to buy a car without trying it on as well.  So long as there is a return option, I guess.
 
2013-02-20 03:07:26 AM  

Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.


Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.


Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.
 
2013-02-20 03:07:43 AM  

Yogimus: fusillade762: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

Companies do this all the time. It's called rent-seeking.


Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Sure. And end up with a car that was sent there because it was underwater for a week after Hurricane Katrina.

... um... are you retarded?


Yes. You caught me.
 
2013-02-20 03:12:25 AM  

Great Janitor: Get the car financed, and they'll be willing to knock more off the price of the car because they'll make it up through interest.



In my experience, the best way to get the lowest bottom-line price (in both new and used sales) is 1. bring a friend or relative and have them talk about their kid/spouse needing a car (the salesperson will drop the price right away if they think they can get a referral out of the sale), 2. act like you're interested in financing through the dealership until you get a final quote, 3. decide that your bank can offer a better rate, so you'll be paying in cash.

The dealer will most likely be a little upset, but in my experience of being the buyer twice and the friend four times times, I've never seen a dealer refuse to honor the quoted price.
 
2013-02-20 03:12:37 AM  

iheartscotch: So, you're saying a pack of elderly lawmakers and obscure laws are making your life miserable?

/ welcome to the modern era; where things can't ever, ever, EVER; be simple.


this isn't limited to today. it's another example of those with money & power making damn sure they don't lose theirs. in lesser ways this has been going on ever since way back when extended families / villages worked together for their common good, side by side. eventually a few genetic misfits were born here and there, malcontents, evil people and some mentally ill, who were cast aside or unable to fit in the social structure so they left. some greedy evil clever ne'r-do-well gathered together a band of these bastards and they rode rein over a local family, stealing their wares and claiming their homes and land as their own as they made slaves of the men and raped the women.

these horrible people were the first to enjoy power and control over others for self gain. they were the ancestors of the wealthy and powerful families that exist today, more or less. simply horrible people that will do whatever it takes to make certain their personal wealth and comfort is undisturbed as others suffer.

it's rare that the masses rise up against those with power and control so it usually remains status quo. the longer this structure exists the more wealthy and powerful those families grow, along with their understanding & application of how to control and manipulate the masses to minimize backlash.
 
2013-02-20 03:18:34 AM  

Yogimus: Buy car overseas.


Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?
 
2013-02-20 03:18:47 AM  

PerilousApricot: Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.


And that day is usually Monday. Why do car dealerships close on a weekend day, probably the day folk have the most time to shop for a new car?
 
2013-02-20 03:21:25 AM  

wax_on: PerilousApricot: Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.

And that day is usually Monday. Why do car dealerships close on a weekend day, probably the day folk have the most time to shop for a new car?


The answer I got was it was a state law.  Some states said that the dealerships had to be closed on Sundays, others say one weekend day.  To me it's evident that the choice isn't up to the dealership or it might be a Tuesday when they were all closed.
 
2013-02-20 03:25:00 AM  
 A similar story was aired on NPR on the way to work a while back about a woman who wanted to order either a Honda or Toyota online and have it made to order. She could do that but had to have the car delivered to a dealer specializing in the company to do the transaction to get the sales.  It made the price of the car much higher in price.

Found out that the automobile industry had got a law passed so that all new cars had to be sold by a dealer. I had never knew about the law until that story.  I wonder why it has not been challenged, but I can guess.

Another story I also heard is why America can not have an efficient commuter or long distance passenger rail systems is because the tracks in the US are privately owned and the owners are afraid it would slow down freight shipping and refuse to share the track. So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.
 
2013-02-20 03:29:01 AM  

Great Janitor: The answer I got was it was a state law.


From Wikipedia

In Colorado, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Jersey, North Dakota, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, car dealerships continue to operate under blue-law prohibitions in which an automobile may not be purchased or traded on a Sunday. Maryland permits Sunday automobile sales only in the counties of Prince George's, Montgomery, and Howard; similarly, Michigan restricts Sunday sales to only those counties with a population of less than 130,000. Texas and Utah prohibit car dealerships from operating over consecutive weekend days. In some cases these laws were created or retained with the support of those whom they affected, to allow them a day off each week without fear of their competitors still being open.[5]

I did not know that.
 
2013-02-20 03:29:03 AM  

wax_on: And that day is usually Monday. Why do car dealerships close on a weekend day, probably the day folk have the most time to shop for a new car?


For the same reason that all cartels with political clout will seek to limit hours: so they can reduce costs.  If everyone is closed on Sunday, they don't have to worry about the dealership down the road snaking customers from them.

In CT up until last year, Sunday alcohol sales were prohibited.  CT is probably the least religious state in the country, so it wasn't due to some sort of outdated notion of religious prudence.  It's that private shopowners didn't want to have to man their shops on Sunday, but they didn't want to lose business to competitors who were willing to be open on Sundays.  So they colluded to continue the Sunday prohibition well beyond its sensible life.  They still collude, by limiting the hours to 11a-5p.  There is no social good - it's simply to avoid having to staff their shops.
 
2013-02-20 03:29:31 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?


What if you leave the car overseas, smart guy?
 
2013-02-20 03:31:42 AM  

HaywoodJablonski: What if you leave the car overseas, smart guy?


Well, you got me there.

JABLONSKI!!!!!!
 
2013-02-20 03:33:11 AM  
I bought a new car at a dealership last year. I paid a good price according to the internet, and got great financing to boot. YMMV.
 
2013-02-20 03:33:55 AM  
local corruption at its best.
 
2013-02-20 03:38:30 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?


Yes I do.  Are you aware of:
http://www.saab-militarysales.com/militaryprogram/main.html
http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/

They don't actually care if you are in the military.
 
2013-02-20 03:42:52 AM  
Because the seats do occupy 16 percent more floor space, the airline would have to sell 16 percent fewer seats.

Having experienced firsthand how ridiculously crowded the airlines are in the corner of the world this kid is from, I'm gonna say no to his genius invention.  You lose.  Good day, sir.  You get nothing.
 
2013-02-20 03:43:24 AM  
In Vegas the car dealerships are required to be closed on Sundays and it irritates the heck out of me.
 
2013-02-20 03:43:43 AM  

HotWingAgenda: Because the seats do occupy 16 percent more floor space, the airline would have to sell 16 percent fewer seats.

Having experienced firsthand how ridiculously crowded the airlines are in the corner of the world this kid is from, I'm gonna say no to his genius invention.  You lose.  Good day, sir.  You get nothing.


Well, that was an epic fail.
 
2013-02-20 03:46:29 AM  

Great Janitor: PerilousApricot: Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.

The difference is that salesmen work on pure commission.  Restaurant/Retail employees are hourly.  In a pure commission environment everyone works 6 or 7 days a week.  If you're having a bad week, you work that seventh day in hopes of having a paycheck.  If you're having a good week, you tend to keep it going buy working that seventh day.  Having a law that says that certain industries, like car sales, must be closed one day a week means that no one is going to force themselves to work seven days, and the boss isn't going to expect anyone to work seven days a week.  Something else that happens in pure commission environments.

I've been in some places were the work week was just four days last sales appointment was at 7pm.  I've been to others were it was officially six days, but in reality it was seven days with the work day starting at 8am and being told that if you're home by 9pm you probably didn't make any money.

When everyone is paid hourly or salaried, the work week gets limited to 40 hours in most cases to avoid over time or comp time.  So the business can run seven days a week and the staff can have two days a week or more off (used to work retail.  One week put in almost 60 hours, next week lucking to put in 10 hours).


Okay, gonna get a lot of grief for this, but I made it to the bottom of the thread... guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager. And man oh man, there is a TON of butthurt in this thread. Please allows me to teach...

1) yep, salesmen lie. you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

2) better deal if you pay cash? hey the 80s called... we take deals that are so damn slim would make you wonder how we stay in business. I can say without hesitation or doubt that WEEKLY, we sell vehicles that are $50-60k and make a whopping 500-750 in profit. For those of you playing the home game, that's a 1% profit. Stop by your local grocer and tell them that you only want them to make 1% in profit. They will laugh their ass off. And probably throw something at you.

3) A salesman works by referrals, so he'll treat you right.......? Actually true. There's a gentleman in our dealership, been with us for 16 years now, doesn't even have to deal with "fresh" business, because he has a decade and a half of customers who know he'll take care of them. Sure there are some fly by night dealerships, some salesmen who don't cut it, etc etc etc... but if you get a real sales man, a CAREER salesman, then know what? he/she will see to it you're taken care of... because statistically, you know someone who will be in the market for a vehicle in the next 18 months. Industry standard.

4) And lastly? If you haven't worked in the business you don't what the fark you're talking about. Go back to that used lot where they put 40 weight in the engine to hide the knocking. You get what you deserve. Its not that different from cultivating a relationship with a waiter/waitress at your favorite restaurant- find someone who you know will take care of you, and go from there. Or be an idiot. Your call.

incidentally, Janitor? Don't know you, but sign me up for your newsletter.
 
2013-02-20 03:47:08 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.


The role of the salesman, or at least the way I do it, I make it clear that I am there to answer all their questions about the car, if I don't know the answer I will find out with them there.  I'm also the their liaison to the person who can finalize the deal and to do everything I can to make sure that they leave with the car that they love.  And I make it crystal clear from the start "If you do not love this car, let me know now and I won't waste our time working out a deal.  Instead we will go back and find a car that you do love."   

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.


One reason why dealerships have a high turn over rate is that it's not an easy job.  My first job as a car salesman I lasted one week.  The one car I sold that week was returned the following day.  Kind of figured that was going to happen when she complained about her $300/month payment on her current car and I put her into a $500/month car.  It's long hours, its six days a week, rejection is high.

Also, car salesmen can be sued for lying.  Everywhere I worked, if the salesman lied about anything, he was fired on the spot.  Not telling someone something and justifying it with "You never asked." isn't lying.  Saying the car gets 30 miles to the gallon when it can only get 15 miles to the gallon is a lie that can get a salesman fired.

As far as the referrals go, no one goes into car sales expecting to be there a month before getting fired.  My father in law has been with Kia for over ten years and has a successful enough referral business that every car he sales now is by appointment.  He doesn't need to sale to anyone who just walked onto the lot.  Also, and I've been in sales long enough to know this, when the salesman does great by the customer/client, the customer/client will happily refer friends and family members to the salesman.  The most referrals I've ever gotten off of one person was 8, and of those 8 I closed business with 5.  Had I lied to the first client I would have lost out on five sales.  And those five sales all brought in referrals that brought in more money.

Honestly, I don't get this idea of salesmen being lying greedy bastards because being in that industry, it's rare, and with some of the stuff I've sold, lying could lead to me getting sued or having licenses or certifications revoked.  Plus, it's just bad business.  When I start a sale I have to sell the product, I have to sell the company and I have to sell myself.  If the company is shady or has a bad reputation (Kirby, Primerica), the sale isn't going to happen no matter how good of a job I do.  If the product is bad (Kirby), the sale isn't going to happen.  If I treat the client or their spouse like shiat, if I lie and get caught, the sale isn't going to happen.  I don't even let the person sign a thing until I've read all the print on the contract to that person and dumbed it down if needed just so they could know exactly what they were about to sign.  I refuse to do business with those who can't speak english because I want there to be absolute clarity about what's happening, something that can't exist when I only speak english and the client can barely speak it, and the last thing I do is I am very careful of what I say.  Because everything I say can be taken at face value.  So if I say something, I better be able to back it up 100% (That's actually why I left my last company.  They gave us stuff to pass out and told us what to say about the deals that were being offered, then they went back on the deal after I told a few skeptical clients that they have the fliers, they have the offer in writing, so of course the company has to honor what's on that flier and there is no fine print.  There was so much trust lost between the company and the clients that I made almost no money as I lost clients because the company refused to honor what it wrote down on paper what it would do and how it would do it.  So I left the company explaining that the company's lies cost me money and I hope they fail).  Salesmen who lie and cheat just to make the sale find themselves out of a job very very fast.
 
2013-02-20 03:52:45 AM  

Yogimus: Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?

Yes I do.  Are you aware of:
http://www.saab-militarysales.com/militaryprogram/main.html
http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/

They don't actually care if you are in the military.


Yeah, no.  Audi A4 quattro premium.  $34K on autoexchange.  $37K MSRP.  Not a great deal.
 
2013-02-20 03:53:05 AM  
"There are plenty other businesses employ lots of people but don't have so much protection from state laws. "

now thats some fine editing.
 
2013-02-20 03:54:07 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.


I get the feeling you're kind of a dick. Also, you know nothing about buying cars. Just saying. I know people who can recite the last 5 times a customer bought a car from them, what they bought, why they bought, what color, etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're a moron who has no clue what he's talking about
 
2013-02-20 03:58:16 AM  

weave: Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.


My mom bought a new car like a pizza once, she called the Toyota place told em the model and color and what she wanted, and they delivered it to her door for a check and proof of insurance. She did give her friend that worked at the dealership and who handled the whole thing the check a few days prior and they waited for it to clear I think, but I'm guessing that if you called and really stuck to your guns about wanting that type of deal you could probably get it pretty easy
 
2013-02-20 03:58:36 AM  

Great Janitor: Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

The role of the salesman, or at least the way I do it, I make it clear that I am there to answer all their questions about the car, if I don't know the answer I will find out with them there.  I'm also the their liaison to the person who can finalize the deal and to do everything I can to make sure that they leave with the car that they love.  And I make it crystal clear from the start "If you do not love this car, let me know now and I won't waste our time working out a deal.  Instead we will go back and find a car that you do love."   

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.

One reason why dealerships hav ...


Great Janitor: Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

The role of the salesman, or at least the way I do it, I make it clear that I am there to answer all their questions about the car, if I don't know the answer I will find out with them there.  I'm also the their liaison to the person who can finalize the deal and to do everything I can to make sure that they leave with the car that they love.  And I make it crystal clear from the start "If you do not love this car, let me know now and I won't waste our time working out a deal.  Instead we will go back and find a car that you do love."   

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.

One reason why dealerships hav ...


For the record, Kirby isn't crap, it's just ridiculously overpriced. just saying.
 
2013-02-20 04:09:18 AM  

HotWingAgenda: HotWingAgenda: Because the seats do occupy 16 percent more floor space, the airline would have to sell 16 percent fewer seats.

Having experienced firsthand how ridiculously crowded the airlines are in the corner of the world this kid is from, I'm gonna say no to his genius invention.  You lose.  Good day, sir.  You get nothing.

Well, that was an epic fail.


I actually thought it was kind of beautiful.
 
2013-02-20 04:19:36 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?


so all this made sense up until emissions. i would bet this idea is  10 - 20 years out of date and every european country has better emissions standards than we do. along with regulating GMO an d fixing roads and we everything that sucks here now that used to kick ass before i was born.
 
2013-02-20 04:21:08 AM  

Mimic_Octopus: Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?

so all this made sense up until emissions. i would bet this idea is  10 - 20 years out of date and every european country has better emissions standards than we do. along with regulating GMO an d fixing roads and we everything that sucks here now that used to kick ass before i was born.


Still needs the sticker for US emissions. (which they will happily place on your car at the factory)
 
2013-02-20 04:22:46 AM  
sonorangal: ....

Another story I also heard is why America can not have an efficient commuter or long distance passenger rail systems is because the tracks in the US are privately owned and the owners are afraid it would slow down freight shipping and refuse to share the track. So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.

A major issue is US geography, with the distance between population centers, especially between the coasts. Also, unlike Europe (where I have lived on and off), roads and rails often preceded the towns. Designing the system to reach out to serve localities was unnecessary because the localities came into existence to serve the system. After WWII the roads won; lobbying by trucking companies and unions got federal regulations to favor OTR transport over rails, and the Interstate system (and subsequent expansion in feeder roads) made the personal car king. Families and their housing spread out, away from the density that makes commuter systems feasible. Now, old trunk line rails are pulled up and abandoned or turned into public pathways. Railways fight a constant battle to keep open the road crossings they have, as towns try to end or divert freight traffic so that (car) traffic can flow smoothly; adding commuter trains to that is unthinkable. We went through this in the Portland OR area with the addition of the WES commuter express, which resulted in a compromise of WES running only limited hours. Additionally, railways have to deal with Darwin Award winners (afoot or a-car) who cross tracks when a train is coming, or clueless NIMBY people who move into a neighborhood near tracks and try to get a law passed that the freight trains can't use horns at night because people are trying to sleep. I'm not partial to railroads; having lived in places where they were prominent, if not dominant, transit choices, I think we Americans could be a bit more accommodating.
 
2013-02-20 04:23:43 AM  

king of vegas: In Vegas the car dealerships are required to be closed on Sundays and it irritates the heck out of me.


yes, no one in teh entire automotive distribution pipeline should have a day off the same day as their office bee wife and school aged children so you can go shopping once every 4 or 5 years.  retail gets moday off cause they mostly kids anyway or retired.  you'll never see the pitcher form your high school baseball team selling suits at sears.
 
2013-02-20 04:30:12 AM  
DRTFA because it appears to have been written by a gerbil.
 
2013-02-20 04:48:14 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


A) We could just ensure that everyone has easy access to the Internet. That's probably a worthwhile and reasonable goal all by itself, regardless of how people buy cars, and it's something we already do for phone and mail service. Even homeless people often have at least some access to phone service; we could do the same thing for the Interwebs.

B) You're argument about "choice" works both ways: If you insist on keeping your local dealerships (though anti-competitive laws), you're taking away the choice of online dealerships from me and hurting us all. I don't think either argument is particularly compelling.
 
2013-02-20 04:59:53 AM  

sonorangal: So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.


We could just move to unified transit technology. The idea that a "highway" and a "rail line" need to be fully distinct things is 19th-century thinking.

And I don't mean loading automobiles onto slow-moving trains, I mean building a new hybrid system that allows for the high-automation, fuel efficiency, and weight capacity of long-haul trains lines but with the individual routing possible with automobiles. It's not as implausible as it might sound technology-wise, it's just a big investment in infrastructure.

Given that the last major transportation technological change (steam->diesel) almost put the railroads out of business, and that car companies haven't done much other than safety/efficiency tweaks for decades (which is good and use engineering, just not very revolutionary in the base form of the vehicle) I'm not sure we can trust either of them or the politicians they own to bring us the next version of transportation.
 
2013-02-20 05:02:57 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


Borders killed Borders.
 
2013-02-20 05:57:45 AM  
I find this thread hillarious

Americans are being ripped off repeatedly but strangely generally accept that (I find this odd since I have many American friends who are quite brilliant and should not be so accepting or ignorant of this)

I bought a car in the US when I first arrived there and was charged about 20% higher than the sticker price with descriptions of "delivery charge", "sales tax", and a host of other charges.

I was forced to sign a loan agreement even though I was paying cash in full (they used homeland security as an excuse accusing me of money laundering because I could pay in full).

AWESOME car, a lot of fun driving it on the I880 but ... what a load of codswallop.
 
2013-02-20 06:13:16 AM  

Slartibartfaster: I bought a car in the US when I first arrived there and was charged about 20% higher than the sticker price with descriptions of "delivery charge", "sales tax", and a host of other charges.

I was forced to sign a loan agreement even though I was paying cash in full (they used homeland security as an excuse accusing me of money laundering because I could pay in full).


Last car I bought, I looked it up online, figured out what I wanted, grabbed a salesman, and paid for it up-front for the manufacturer's standard price as listed on the manufacturer web site along with the specs.

Then, I was buying from a manufacturer-affiliated dealership.  If you weren't, that was probably your first mistake right there.  The internet is a thing now, you don't actually need a salesman to do anything but help you with the paperwork.
 
2013-02-20 06:27:16 AM  

Babwa Wawa: AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.

This isn't just about online competition.  This is about ANY competition at all.  The rules designed to raise the cost of market entry for car dealers wouldn't be tolerated in many other industries.


Um, it's not just tolerated, but lobbied for, in MOST industries.  Just not as blatantly, usually.

Try opening your own bank or insurance company, for instance.
 
2013-02-20 06:40:58 AM  

gadian: If a person feels comfortable enough to buy clothes online, they'll likely feel comfortable enough to buy a car without trying it on as well.  So long as there is a return option, I guess.


Yea, because ordering and taking delivery of a 40k automobile, driving it around for awhile, then deciding "you know, I'm really not satisfied with the lumbar support", and deciding to return it (as a "used" vehicle btw) is the same as trying on a hat.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen on fark, and that's saying something.

You're all probably the same people biatching and moaning about all the jobs being sent overseas too.

So what the hell, let's throw a few thousand more people out of work in every county across the country so I can save a few hundred bucks on a car purchase.

I'm not a car salesman, but I understand economics. Do you know what kind of property taxes these dealerships pay? Not to mention some of them being the largest employers in their respective locations? Advertising dollars spent locally, sponsorships of local kids sports teams, ect., ect.

Some businesses need to be local. Car dealerships, as sleazy as they are, are one of these.
 
2013-02-20 06:55:54 AM  
My wife bought a car a few years ago. She did all the research on various car sides (e.g. edmunds.com), reviewed the online inventory for multiple dealers in town, found the exact model and trim package that she wanted, and did all the negotiations by phone (less pressure that way). The dealers all competed with each other for her business, would offer to beat other dealer prices, etc. She kept meticulous notes of each conversation and when certain details were to be discussed (for example, the price) would record the call and got the dealer consent to do so -- that way there'd be no misconceptions or "he said, she said" accusations.

Finally, after she got the best offer from one dealer she physically went into the shop to finalize the sale. Even then, they tried pulling a lot of bogus stuff, tried to sell her useless add-ons, services, doing shady financial stuff, etc. On several occasions they tried saying certain things were required (and she knew they weren't) and so she got up to walk. They ended up changing their minds and suddenly "required" things became "optional".

She ended up buying the car that she wanted at the priced that had been previously agreed upon with no extras. They even removed the dealer sticker and license plate frame as a condition of the sale.

Moral of the story: do your research online and contact dealers by phone ahead of time (preferably by Google Voice so you can block their annoying follow-up calls that they make for weeks afterwards even after requesting that they don't call you). Be prepared to walk if they try pulling anything shady. There's no need to be an ass to car dealers, as they're just doing their job, but don't get suckered.

/dislikes having to interact with salesmen and high-pressure sales tactics
 
2013-02-20 06:59:17 AM  

king of vegas: In Vegas the car dealerships are required to be closed on Sundays and it irritates the heck out of me.


Do you buy new cars that frequently that the dealerships not being open one day out of the week is a big deal for you?
 
2013-02-20 07:01:02 AM  

sonorangal:  A similar story was aired on NPR on the way to work a while back about a woman who wanted to order either a Honda or Toyota online and have it made to order. She could do that but had to have the car delivered to a dealer specializing in the company to do the transaction to get the sales.  It made the price of the car much higher in price.

Found out that the automobile industry had got a law passed so that all new cars had to be sold by a dealer. I had never knew about the law until that story.  I wonder why it has not been challenged, but I can guess.

Another story I also heard is why America can not have an efficient commuter or long distance passenger rail systems is because the tracks in the US are privately owned and the owners are afraid it would slow down freight shipping and refuse to share the track. So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.


That's not the only reason. In addition to needing more infrastructure, they'd have to abandon numerous smaller stations at stops in places like Podunk Arkansas that were created to satisfy the political needs of various members of Congress.
 
2013-02-20 07:05:52 AM  

nolanomad: 2) better deal if you pay cash? hey the 80s called... we take deals that are so damn slim would make you wonder how we stay in business. I can say without hesitation or doubt that WEEKLY, we sell vehicles that are $50-60k and make a whopping 500-750 in profit. For those of you playing the home game, that's a 1% profit. Stop by your local grocer and tell them that you only want them to make 1% in profit. They will laugh their ass off. And probably throw something at you.


Of course you'd rather people finanaced through your preferred program. Oh, and if you're really making 1% profit, you're going out of business very, very soon. My guess? You're lying.
 
2013-02-20 07:09:32 AM  
The car dealership system makes absolutely no sense to me.
 
2013-02-20 07:10:55 AM  

Basily Gourt: gadian: If a person feels comfortable enough to buy clothes online, they'll likely feel comfortable enough to buy a car without trying it on as well.  So long as there is a return option, I guess.

Yea, because ordering and taking delivery of a 40k automobile, driving it around for awhile, then deciding "you know, I'm really not satisfied with the lumbar support", and deciding to return it (as a "used" vehicle btw) is the same as trying on a hat. - The law says you can return a vehicle before 3 days for ANY reason, already.  Many dealers offer 30-day return policies already.

This is the dumbest thread I've seen on fark, and that's saying something. - I'll reserve judgement on that until the next thread you are in.

You're all probably the same people biatching and moaning about all the jobs being sent overseas too. - So, your argument is that we should maintain a stupid outdated system because it might save some jobs.  By that logic, there should be a BestBuy on every corner.

So what the hell, let's throw a few thousand more people out of work in every county across the country so I can save a few hundred bucks on a car purchase. - Again, see BestBuy.

I'm not a car salesman, but I understand economics. Do you know what kind of property taxes these dealerships pay? Not to mention some of them being the largest employers in their respective locations? Advertising dollars spent locally, sponsorships of local kids sports teams, ect., ect. - Actually, you don't understand economics.  If you did, you would understand that dealerships are essentially monopolistic competition.  They compete against one another, but they have structured the market in such a way that it creates false barriers to competition.  Time and time again, this has been shown to be an inefficient market model, and ultimately, it is the consumer that gets screwed.

Some businesses need to be local. Car dealerships, as sleazy as they are, are one of these.

- Fine. let them be local.  There is no reason why dealerships all have to go away.  Some people, especially old folks will never want to buy their cars online.  But is that a valid reason to use sleazy political moves to prevent innovation?  fark, no.
 
2013-02-20 07:14:26 AM  

harlock: I bought my last new car through Cars Direct in 2003 and it was the easiest experience I ever had. The way it works out is you order it from there and pick it up at a participating dealership. It's a done deal and they are not allowed to mess with you. I walked in, signed papers and drove out. At the time the going price for most cars on there was $500 over invoice minus any factory incentives etc available, which for my car were very substantial (always buy at the end of Dec for good deals...) and I got a really great deal.


I am not sure how their process works, but if you can get a firm price from them it may be worth while to sniff around the dealer to see if they can beat it.

Last car I bought I got it at invoice -1000 (manufacturer discount), no financing tricks, it was amazing pleasent.  On top of that they paid me over blue book for my trade in...I almost felt guilty.
 
2013-02-20 07:16:24 AM  
weave:
Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.


So will you still go to a B&M dealership beforehand to test drive it, and then order it for cheaper online?  Or will you buy a car without so much as sitting in it?

Close2TheEdge:
There is no reason why dealerships all have to go away. Some people, especially old folks will never want to buy their cars online. But is that a valid reason to use sleazy political moves to prevent innovation? fark, no.

But this.
 
2013-02-20 07:30:27 AM  

Babwa Wawa: MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news

Anything that drives public awareness of this mockery of the free market is a good thing.


This has been going on since long before the internet existed though.  Even before the internet, we were forced to buy cars from middlemen (dealers) because it was illegal for for OEMs to open retail outlets that could sell directly to the customer.  Regardless of the technology, it's just state governments choosing to protect local business (read: middlemen) from outside competition (an OEM retail store would be able to undersell local dealers AND have more money behind it).

The problem is that no one really questions the system.  Even though it's perfectly legal for Apple to sell their products directly through their own retail outlets, it's not ok for Ford to do so---but most people don't find that unusual, because that's the way it's always been.  You're right though, raising awareness of the dealer scam will help, but it's an uphill batter to change "the way things have always been."
 
2013-02-20 07:30:41 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?


For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.
 
2013-02-20 07:42:05 AM  

HMS_Blinkin: Babwa Wawa: MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news

Anything that drives public awareness of this mockery of the free market is a good thing.

This has been going on since long before the internet existed though.  Even before the internet, we were forced to buy cars from middlemen (dealers) because it was illegal for for OEMs to open retail outlets that could sell directly to the customer.  Regardless of the technology, it's just state governments choosing to protect local business (read: middlemen) from outside competition (an OEM retail store would be able to undersell local dealers AND have more money behind it).

The problem is that no one really questions the system.  Even though it's perfectly legal for Apple to sell their products directly through their own retail outlets, it's not ok for Ford to do so---but most people don't find that unusual, because that's the way it's always been.  You're right though, raising awareness of the dealer scam will help, but it's an uphill batter to change "the way things have always been."


Apple sells products at the retail level but they are almost always the most expensive place to buy an apple product. It would be like if car manufacturers were allowed to sell to consumers but they only sold at MSRP.
 
2013-02-20 07:42:39 AM  

gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday


You think that's bad?  Try buying a new handgun in another state.  That's a federal felony, and a stupid, stupid left-over from before the time when all new gun purchases were subject to an instant background check.
 
2013-02-20 07:45:02 AM  
When I bought my car, I offered $21,500 on an MSRP of $23,500. The salesman looked at me like quizzical dog and asked "You want me to just give you two thousand dollars?" as if no one had ever haggled for the price of a new car before. There are ten dealerships up and down the street I live off of. I got my discount.
 
2013-02-20 07:46:38 AM  

Corn_Fed: If you buy a new car from the floor salesmen at the dealership, you're DOING IT WRONG and will pay a sucker premium.


This article pretty much says there is literally no other way to do it, so if you know a hack, we'd be a great audience to share with.
 
2013-02-20 07:46:51 AM  
fark car salespeople. It's a archaic system that needs dismantled. Thankfully, these losers have backed themselves into the "Best Buy Corner". Within a decade or so all they'll be good for is as a fancy showroom. People will test drive some selections then they will go online and buy the model, color and options on the vehicle they want.

....Or better yet, maybe Hertz or Enterprise will get into the game specifically AS a rental and vehicle showroom, then you go buy the vehicle online.
 
2013-02-20 07:50:42 AM  
there is a urban legend the price the dealership wants for each car is hidden in the long list of numbers on the window sticker. the salesman can look at the sticker and glance at that line with 30+ letters and numbers and know what the price is. i want to believe. twice i've covered my hand over that long line when asking the price. both times the salesman got nasty. one said they needed to see what was equipped on the car and i told him to just read. "there is the list of a/c moon roof, etc... so how much is the car?". he walked into the dealership and no one else came out to assist me.
 
2013-02-20 07:57:50 AM  

meanmutton: For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.


If the manufacturer is not in their border, doesn't this step on the toes of the fed?
 
2013-02-20 07:58:29 AM  

Great Janitor: .  In 2005 I bought a new car for $10,000.  On a five year note, after a $1,000 down payment, I would have ended up paying over $25,000....


Wow, either you're a terrible negotiator, or you have terrrible credit.  Do you realize that paying a total of $25,000 on a $9,000 loan over five years means that your annual interest rate would be 51 percent?  And you probably thought you were getting a great deal too, given all the virtual saliva you've been applying to the car dealers' balls in this thread.
 
2013-02-20 08:08:30 AM  

BMFPitt: The car dealership system makes absolutely no sense to me.


Most of the laws hark back to the early days of car selling and they were intended (originally, not anymore) to prevent a manufacturer from having a monopoly over car sales nationwide.  If GM was losing market in, say, California, they could sell cars at a loss there and make up the difference by selling higher priced cars in NY, for example.  So manufacturers were prevented from directly selling to the consumer to prevent collusion over multiple markets.
 
2013-02-20 08:08:47 AM  
As normal with NPR stories they miss (probably intentionally) an important part of these laws. The laws also protect consumers by requiring that manufactures drop cars off at dealers and then dealer are responsible for the final check that all the lights work, the brakes work,vital functions like wipers are operational. Basically that the car is safe  to drive. Even if the manufacture checks them as they come off the lot, theses things can be damaged in shipment. If I buy a book off the internet and its not assembled properly or damaged in shipment, my use of it can not kill myself or more importantly other people not involved in the transaction. A car delivered with brakes that are faulty can kill many people. Dealers are REQUIRED by those very same laws to make sure the new car can be safely operated on public roads.
 
2013-02-20 08:09:02 AM  
Did anyone else read the headline in Ron Pearlman's voice?  Cars.... Buying cars never changes...
 
2013-02-20 08:09:31 AM  

HellRaisingHoosier: fark car salespeople. It's a archaic system that needs dismantled. Thankfully, these losers have backed themselves into the "Best Buy Corner". Within a decade or so all they'll be good for is as a fancy showroom. People will test drive some selections then they will go online and buy the model, color and options on the vehicle they want.

....Or better yet, maybe Hertz or Enterprise will get into the game specifically AS a rental and vehicle showroom, then you go buy the vehicle online.


Yea, I'm sure that's just what's going to happen.

I don't know where you live, but around here the dealers are doing just fine. Every other year one or another of them is expanding.

I don't expect most of the socially awkward dweebs who post here to understand, but most people like to interact with other human beings. I see guys like you in the stores, getting in the way, (with your earbuds in, of course, lest you actually have to talk to somebody) taking pictures of products that you plan on buying later online.

When all of your "showrooms" are closed, what is your plan then? Order 2-3 different products online, play with them at home in your mother's basement for awhile, and return the ones you don't like?

I'm sure that will work out just fine.
 
2013-02-20 08:09:43 AM  
About 50% of the human race is middle-men, and they don't take kindly to being eliminated.
 
2013-02-20 08:10:02 AM  
Every time I try to buy a car online, I get a flood of e-mails from local car dealerships that say:  "We've got exactly the car you want.  Come in to our showroom and we'll discuss the price."

Which, translated, means: "Get away from the keyboard, and keep buying cars the way you always have, suckah."

blogs.courier-journal.com
 
2013-02-20 08:12:57 AM  

meanmutton: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.


From what I've read around the tubes is that the dealership pain in the ass experience is due to the manufacturers being greedy.  See you are not really the manufacturer's customer, the dealership is.  What the manus used to do is push whatever inventory they had to the dealers.  That way the manus had a steady stream of buyers no matter if cars were selling or not.  Some dealer going down, slow with payments, well let some other rube start up a new dealership and he can buy the inventory rolling off the assembly line.

So dealers had to band together to avoid being steamrolled by their suppliers that forced them to buy inventory that was not selling or they did not want.

Of course the market as evolved sine way back when, but the current dealer/manufacturer setup is still a remnant of that.

I'd like to see Tesla's model take off for new cars.  Go to a few specialized company owned show rooms where you can make an appointment to test drive models you care to see.  Check everything out.  If you like, order it directly from the manufacturer.  Since dealers sometimes say they make more money on service, franchise out warranty service to businesses that want to maintain the cars but not sell them.  If that is where the real money is, instead of warehousing inventory for Chevy, then go for it.

Used car lots will still be around, but you only need to look at something like CarMax to see how that is changing.  Hit up their site and you have a huge inventory to look at. If they don't have the car local, they can get one from a nearby lot.

As for the two sales folks in here, I'm sure there are a few great sales folks.  I've never met them.  And if they are work by referal and appointment only and I'm not in that chain, how the fark can I?  I just end up stuck with the schmuck that get tasked with watching the lot.
 
2013-02-20 08:14:09 AM  

JohnnyC: By law I think dealerships should have to pay you a monthly fee to put one of their farking stickers on your car if you buy it from them. You could opt out of them putting the sticker on your car, in which case they wouldn't have to pay.

I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.


I make the dealer take it off. I tell them to remove the sticker and scrub the goo, or I'm not buying it. I've also never fully paid their 'processing fee'. They won't budge on charging me some of it, but I've knocked it in half from the last 3 cars I bought. That's a damn car payment right there.

One saleman told me they HAVE to charge the fee by federal law. I said "No, you're *allowed* to charge it by law. You are not *required*" Then he said "Well, it's already pre-printed on the sales form, so there is nothing we can do". I which point I said "Oh really? I can fix that" I took the form, crossed out the $400 and wrote $200 and declared the problem to be solved. It's really a small matter when you're dropping $25k on car, but evey little bit helps.
 
2013-02-20 08:14:23 AM  

Carth: Apple sells products at the retail level but they are almost always the most expensive place to buy an apple product. It would be like if car manufacturers were allowed to sell to consumers but they only sold at MSRP.


Ok, so Apple was a bad example.  The point is that if they wanted to, OEMs could easily undercut dealers if they wanted to sell directly either online or in retail spaces.
 
2013-02-20 08:17:08 AM  

No Such Agency: weave:
Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.


So will you still go to a B&M dealership beforehand to test drive it, and then order it for cheaper online?  Or will you buy a car without so much as sitting in it?

Maybe.  So?  The market will have to adapt, like charging for test drives, or renting out a fleet so I can pay whatever I pay Hertz for a one day rental so I can try it out, or manufacturers will set up test drive locations.

In short, not my problem.  I'm the consumer and that's how capitalism works and I have faith it will figure out a way to make a profit from it if done fairly.
 
2013-02-20 08:23:42 AM  

weave: No Such Agency: weave:
Amen to that.  I want to go online, order exactly what I want with options, pay for it, then a few weeks later a truck pulls up and drops off my new car.

Of course dealers will still exist to rip you off on service, so they'll still have that.

So will you still go to a B&M dealership beforehand to test drive it, and then order it for cheaper online?  Or will you buy a car without so much as sitting in it?

Maybe.  So?  The market will have to adapt, like charging for test drives, or renting out a fleet so I can pay whatever I pay Hertz for a one day rental so I can try it out, or manufacturers will set up test drive locations.

In short, not my problem.  I'm the consumer and that's how capitalism works and I have faith it will figure out a way to make a profit from it if done fairly.


Or doing what Tesla does and having a showroom run by the manufacturer you can test drive a car. The people working there will even help you order online if you don't feel comfortable buying a car at home.
 
2013-02-20 08:24:40 AM  

nolanomad: Great Janitor: PerilousApricot: Great Janitor: The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

That's why all the restaurants, clothes stores and shops near my house close one day a week.

The difference is that salesmen work on pure commission.  Restaurant/Retail employees are hourly.  In a pure commission environment everyone works 6 or 7 days a week.  If you're having a bad week, you work that seventh day in hopes of having a paycheck.  If you're having a good week, you tend to keep it going buy working that seventh day.  Having a law that says that certain industries, like car sales, must be closed one day a week means that no one is going to force themselves to work seven days, and the boss isn't going to expect anyone to work seven days a week.  Something else that happens in pure commission environments.

I've been in some places were the work week was just four days last sales appointment was at 7pm.  I've been to others were it was officially six days, but in reality it was seven days with the work day starting at 8am and being told that if you're home by 9pm you probably didn't make any money.

When everyone is paid hourly or salaried, the work week gets limited to 40 hours in most cases to avoid over time or comp time.  So the business can run seven days a week and the staff can have two days a week or more off (used to work retail.  One week put in almost 60 hours, next week lucking to put in 10 hours).

Okay, gonna get a lot of grief for this, but I made it to the bottom of the thread... guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager. And man oh man, there is a TON of butthurt in this thread. Please allows me to teach...

1) yep, salesmen lie. you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to ...


Ironic that you start your post amused about the butthurt in the thread, and then you increase the butthurt in this thread by a magnitude of 10.

Car salesmen are among the Big 3 for sleazeballs, behind politicians and pedophiles, and everyone knows it.  Deal with it.
 
2013-02-20 08:24:59 AM  

Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?

Yes I do.  Are you aware of:
http://www.saab-militarysales.com/militaryprogram/main.html
http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/

They don't actually care if you are in the military.

Yeah, no.  Audi A4 quattro premium.  $34K on autoexchange.  $37K MSRP.  Not a great deal.


What I find more impressive is that they are still selling new Saabs, and at 2008 pricing as well.  Hell of a deal.
 
2013-02-20 08:26:42 AM  
I do stage hypnosis shows as a hobby. I'm always amused when I go to dealerships and inevitably someone there will attempt to use conversational hypnosis techniques, or their poor man's equivalent NLP, to try and put me into a suggestible state.

I was taking a test drive at one dealership (2012 Dodge Challenger, baybeeee) and the sales guy sitting in the passenger seat kept doing this weird touching thing on the back of my right hand while I had it on the steering wheel. Then it hit me: he's trying this stupid "tapping" fad to reinforce his point. I calmly told him to stop touching me.
 
2013-02-20 08:31:19 AM  
I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"
 
2013-02-20 08:33:12 AM  

Yogimus: Babwa Wawa: Yogimus: Buy car overseas.

Are you familiar with the current exchange rates?  Are you familiar with how difficult it would be to source parts for a european-spec car in the US?  Do you have any idea of the shipping costs associated with it?  Do you have any idea how to ensure that a foreign-procured vehicle can be certified in the US for emissions so it can be registered?

Yes I do.  Are you aware of:
http://www.saab-militarysales.com/militaryprogram/main.html
http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/

They don't actually care if you are in the military.


There USED to be something similar yearsandyearsandyears ago, though not sure if it still exists:  Most overseas bases (for instance, Kunsan AB in South Korea, where I was at) had a little office at the BX where, if you were within 30 days or so of going home, you went in and could order a car from ANY of the old Big 3, and it would be waiting for you at the airport in the States.   IIRC, no prep charges, no transport charges, and a fair discount off the MSRP.
 
2013-02-20 08:37:57 AM  
I vote for the 'No, I will not buy a car based on a pic and description typed up by a salesman'.

Even if buying new; the only vehicle I bought new was my Venture still had the shipping tape on it when I saw it and only 10 miles.  I still test drove it.

A lot of times brand new cars on the lot has more miles because they get used for all sorts of running around by the sales force.  Have you watched how a salesman drives?  They don't believe in treating a car right.

I just bought a used Expedition and chose that over a Trailblazer.  Trailblazer looked better, less miles and asked $2000 more.  The Expedition drove much better and what was not mentioned in the description, the Trailblazer was in an accident and had five different owners.  Seems fishy why a vehicle around 100,000 miles would go through five owners.
 
2013-02-20 08:38:50 AM  

CtrlAltDestroy: I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"


Find the exact car you want, model, features, color and email all deals that sell that brand within 50-100 miles saying "I want this car, what is the lowest out the door price you can give me"

Then arrange financing through a credit union at the lowest interest rate you can get. Then when you get to the dealership ask" can you beat ____ interest rate? If not or they if they try to add any fees just use the check from the credit union.
 
2013-02-20 08:41:36 AM  

Carth: CtrlAltDestroy: I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"

Find the exact car you want, model, features, color and email all deals that sell that brand within 50-100 miles saying "I want this car, what is the lowest out the door price you can give me"

Then arrange financing through a credit union at the lowest interest rate you can get. Then when you get to the dealership ask" can you beat ____ interest rate? If not or they if they try to add any fees just use the check from the credit union.


It goes without saying but don't use your real email account since you'll get spam from the dealers for years. If you have a lot of time you can take the lowest quote you receive and respond to the other dealers asking them to beat it.
 
2013-02-20 08:41:58 AM  

jpadc: As normal with NPR stories they miss (probably intentionally) an important part of these laws. The laws also protect consumers by requiring that manufactures drop cars off at dealers and then dealer are responsible for the final check that all the lights work, the brakes work,vital functions like wipers are operational. Basically that the car is safe  to drive. Even if the manufacture checks them as they come off the lot, theses things can be damaged in shipment. If I buy a book off the internet and its not assembled properly or damaged in shipment, my use of it can not kill myself or more importantly other people not involved in the transaction. A car delivered with brakes that are faulty can kill many people. Dealers are REQUIRED by those very same laws to make sure the new car can be safely operated on public roads.


There is no reason they couldn't require the manufacturer to check those prior to release/after shipment.
 
2013-02-20 08:50:30 AM  
Motorbikes, too. Sucks rocks, I say.
 
2013-02-20 08:50:30 AM  

Prototype909: Great Janitor: .  In 2005 I bought a new car for $10,000.  On a five year note, after a $1,000 down payment, I would have ended up paying over $25,000....

Wow, either you're a terrible negotiator, or you have terrrible credit.  Do you realize that paying a total of $25,000 on a $9,000 loan over five years means that your annual interest rate would be 51 percent?  And you probably thought you were getting a great deal too, given all the virtual saliva you've been applying to the car dealers' balls in this thread.


Actually, no.  The car was $14,000 after the extended warranty.  I wanted the gap insurance that only came with the second level of the warranty (when cars are financed, for the first two or three years the loan is more than the worth of the car.  If your car gets totaled during that time insurance only covers the value of the car, not the loan so you're screwed.  Gap insurance protects you by paying off the balance of the loan in the event of a car wreck, and after seeing my dad, less than a year prior, get rear ended by a drunk driver on the freeway and have the auto insurance of the guy who rear ended him say that legally they only have to cover the value of the car, my dad who should have gotten a lawyer, ended up rolling the unpaid balance of his car into the loan of another car, I decided that it was something good to have because shiat happens).  So, $14,000 plus tax, title and license at a finance rate of 19% came to $25,000.  And yes, my credit sucks and my negotiation skills eight years ago sucked.  Pay for a car in cash and you don't need the gap insurance because you won't be underwater.  What I should have done back in 2005 was tell my mother who suggested I get a new car when I was a temp making only $10/hour no, and gone to craigslist and bought a car in cash and be done with it.
 
2013-02-20 08:50:53 AM  

harlock: I hate...hate HATE car dealers and I want nothing to do with them.      I can barely stand to go to one for a test drive.


My way to deal with them: treat them like machines.

Walk in, see a car, look up the book price. Tell them that you will offer them the book price. They can take it or leave it. If they say anything else, hand them a business card with your offer on the back, tell them to call you if they're willing to accept the price and nothing else. If they call and try anything else, put the phone down.

Sales people hate this shiat. They want to tell you that you'll get more pussy with this car, or that you're robbing them at that price, or that they've got to put food on the table, or anything else. At this point... tell them what your offer is, hand them a card and walk.

I had a sales guy tell me that "this was a £20K car, and you're getting it for £8K, it's a bargain, and I was being cheeky offering £7K". I told him that I was withdrawing my offer, he was not to call me for a fortnight and that he could go and find another customer. If he couldn't he could call, apologise for his rudeness, and offer it to me for £7K. In the meantime, i would try and find one elsewhere for £7K.

The absolute golden rule: never need a car. If you really need a car, buy a £1K banger. When you're spending £20K on a car, always be in a position to turn it down.
 
2013-02-20 08:53:00 AM  

CtrlAltDestroy: I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"


http://www.edmunds.com/

It is your friend. Get to know it.
 
2013-02-20 08:58:17 AM  
"There is no reason they couldn't require the manufacturer to check those prior to release/after shipment."

So, you still have to go somewhere to get your car where they would have manufacturer certified techs to make the required repairs, send required parts to and the like. Warranty repairs, recalls etc, you still need some place to do all that. If dealers close, then the cost of maintaining those facilities increase and so do car prices.  You already can buy your car through Costco (and other places) and go to a dealer to pick it up. So what you wantalready exists.
 
2013-02-20 09:00:42 AM  

jpadc: "There is no reason they couldn't require the manufacturer to check those prior to release/after shipment."

So, you still have to go somewhere to get your car where they would have manufacturer certified techs to make the required repairs, send required parts to and the like. Warranty repairs, recalls etc, you still need some place to do all that. If dealers close, then the cost of maintaining those facilities increase and so do car prices.  You already can buy your car through Costco (and other places) and go to a dealer to pick it up. So what you wantalready exists.


Bull shiat.

Most garages can do that.
 
2013-02-20 09:02:53 AM  

jpadc: "There is no reason they couldn't require the manufacturer to check those prior to release/after shipment."

So, you still have to go somewhere to get your car where they would have manufacturer certified techs to make the required repairs, send required parts to and the like. Warranty repairs, recalls etc, you still need some place to do all that. If dealers close, then the cost of maintaining those facilities increase and so do car prices.  You already can buy your car through Costco (and other places) and go to a dealer to pick it up. So what you wantalready exists.


Meh, this can be solved.  Many other goods manufacturers have either contracted shops or their own shops in large areas to do warranty service repair.  I don't see why this can be truly any different.  As well cars are generally magnitudes more reliable than they used to be.  Sure there are some calls for service but they are not as great as they used to be.  Maintenance intervals are further apart as well.  Since the maintenance area is usually a strong profit center for a dealership, I'd expect to see folks more than willing to do this and to not provide huge lots for the manufacturer to park its inventory.
 
2013-02-20 09:07:45 AM  

PunGent: Um, it's not just tolerated, but lobbied for, in MOST industries.  Just not as blatantly, usually.

Try opening your own bank or insurance company, for instance.


That's true - but those are typically heavily regulated industries anyway.  Not that it's any more right, but if you think about industries that produce consumables where the retailers have the manufacturers by the balls, there aren't that many.

The sleaziness of the sales model has an inverse correlation with the frequency with which people buy the products.  Appliances used to be a fairly sleazy biz, now it's very reasonable precisely because of pressure from the Internet.  Mattress purchases, OTOH....
 
hej
2013-02-20 09:13:22 AM  
MaudlinMutantMollusk:
//call me cynical, if you will

You're cynical.
/And I agree with you entirely.
 
hej
2013-02-20 09:14:35 AM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


How are the people who don't rely on brick and mortar stores being hurt by the BnM's going away?
 
2013-02-20 09:15:22 AM  

Basily Gourt: I don't expect most of the socially awkward dweebs who post here to understand, but most people like to interact with other human beings.



There's a subtle difference between "human interaction" and "pushy salesperson who refuses to show you the car you want to buy, adds arbitrary numbers to the final quote driving the price up by $2-3k over an earlier quote, and stands in front of your car door when you try to leave to go to another dealer".

If you want to get scammed every time you go to a dealer, be my guest, but some of us just want to buy the car we actually want without going through a 3+ hour song and dance before we even find out if the dealer has that model on the lot.
 
hej
2013-02-20 09:15:39 AM  

JohnnyC: By law I think dealerships should have to pay you a monthly fee to put one of their farking stickers on your car if you buy it from them. You could opt out of them putting the sticker on your car, in which case they wouldn't have to pay.

I hate that I end up having to remove those farking things from any car I purchase from a dealership.


You already can "opt out".  Tell them to take it off/not to put it on before you take delivery of the car.
 
2013-02-20 09:18:42 AM  
If you want to go through the hassle, just call the closest 5-10 dealers and make them aware that they will be competing for your money. Take bids and make the salespeople of each dealership aware of the lowest bid price. Continue taking bids until all but 1 dealer have dropped out of the race, and then go pick up your new car which you will be getting for a fraction of what most people pay for it.
 
2013-02-20 09:20:00 AM  

nolanomad: I get the feeling you're kind of a dick. Also, you know nothing about buying cars. Just saying. I know people who can recite the last 5 times a customer bought a car from them, what they bought, why they bought, what color, etc. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're a moron who has no clue what he's talking about


Oh, I'm sure those people exist. But anyone who claims that this type of salesperson is anything near the norm is either uneducated or being deliberately misleading.

nolanomad: I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager.


I see you're the latter. "Internet Manager" indeed.
 
2013-02-20 09:20:11 AM  

CtrlAltDestroy: I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"


Have a bunch of car models and brands you want to try.  Go to the dealers and ask to test drive the car.  Be up front with them you are not purchasing that day so price discussion is moot because you're still trying to figure out which car you want.  Get a card from them and promise them your business when you do decide to purchase.

Then grill them on the car, make them answer details about the vehicle that you've been researching online, you'll quickly learn which dealerships have people that care about the vehicles and which dealerships are there to rip you off and never see you again.

When you do decide to purchase, figure out the Invoice price for the vehicle, anyone that pays MSRP is a farking idiot(Although you could probably say the same for invoice, getting below it is much more difficult)    So yeah, walk in, tell them the car you want, test drive it again, sit down, and give them the Invoice price, if they argue with it at all, remind them that a one-way airline ticket is only a couple hundred dollars and you can find a dealership willing to honor that invoice price.

TL:DR Never pay MSRP, Never pay more than Invoice.
 
2013-02-20 09:25:45 AM  

Great Janitor: Prototype909: Great Janitor: .   In 2005 I bought a new car for $10,000.  ...

... The car was $14,000 after the extended warranty.  ...

...  So, $14,000 plus tax, title and license at a finance rate of 19% ...


I wonder where car salesmen get that reputation they have... you know, the one where they keep moving the goalposts to lure someone in low, then raise the price as much as they can before the customer reaches the door...
 
2013-02-20 09:25:54 AM  
Basily Gourt:
I don't know where you live, but around here the dealers are doing just fine. Every other year one or another of them is expanding.

I don't expect most of the socially awkward dweebs who post here to understand, but most people like to interact with other human beings. I see guys like you in the stores, getting in the way, (with your earbuds in, of course, lest you actually have to talk to somebody) taking pictures of products that you plan on buying later online.

When all of your "showrooms" are closed, what is your plan then? Order 2-3 different products online, play with them at home in your mother's basement for awhile, and return the ones you don't like?

I'm sure that will work out just fine.



My favorite part of your rant is that you have this preconceived notion of who I am, and you then use that to try and insinuate that car buying is a fun process. Vehicles are simply transportation. That's all they are. They are a drain on your budget and greatly increase your risk of death. A  train and some sneaker would make them obsolete for a lot of people.

Face it man, the world is a changing place and the time of personal vehicle dealerships are dieing the United States. I don't think the number of dealerships has ever gone anywhere but down since the 40's. Don't take it as a personal insult (which is seems you have), it's simply life. Look at all the other industries it has happened in.
 
2013-02-20 09:26:38 AM  
images3.wikia.nocookie.net
JERRY: All right, all right. All right, that's enough! Let's get back to my deal. That undercoating, that's a rip-off, isn't it, David?
PUDDY: Oh, we don't even know what it is.
JERRY: So, I'm gettin' the insider's deal?
PUDDY: Insider's deal. (Holds up his hand) High-five.
 
2013-02-20 09:29:07 AM  
Been using the same dealer for service for nearly 30 years now...they're not the cheapest, but they do solid work, and have ripped me off for exactly $70 in all that time...new battery I didn't need, not the end of the world.

Buying a car from them?  I'd still be VERY careful, do all my homework first, etc.

/more of a used car guy anyway
//driving around here is a contact sport
 
2013-02-20 09:32:01 AM  

CtrlAltDestroy: I plan on buying a new car this spring. I want the 2013 model for the new features and I feel like treating myself to a brand new car, as I think everyone should have a spankin' new car at least once in their lives. My last 4 vehicles (2 cars and 2 motorcycles) were used.

So, my experienced farkers, any tips? I have good, but not amazing credit. I know the model and options that I want. I was thinking of emailing several local dealers basically saying, "Here's what I want, nothing more and nothing less. You're not the only dealer that I'm contacting. What's your best offer?"


Personally, I go with a straight-forward approach.  This is what I want, this is what I will pay for it, take it or leave it.  Don't budge from that point.  If your price is reasonable, the dealer will come around.  If your price is low, they won't sell it to you.  The thing to remember is that it's strictly business, not an emotional game, and the dealer can walk away from your offer just as easily as you can from thiers.

/I've only been involved in the purchase of two vehicles this way - my wife's car and my motorcycle.  Worked well enough for me, YMMV.
 
2013-02-20 09:41:04 AM  

HellRaisingHoosier: Basily Gourt:
I don't know where you live, but around here the dealers are doing just fine. Every other year one or another of them is expanding.

I don't expect most of the socially awkward dweebs who post here to understand, but most people like to interact with other human beings. I see guys like you in the stores, getting in the way, (with your earbuds in, of course, lest you actually have to talk to somebody) taking pictures of products that you plan on buying later online.

When all of your "showrooms" are closed, what is your plan then? Order 2-3 different products online, play with them at home in your mother's basement for awhile, and return the ones you don't like?

I'm sure that will work out just fine.


My favorite part of your rant is that you have this preconceived notion of who I am, and you then use that to try and insinuate that car buying is a fun process. Vehicles are simply transportation. That's all they are. They are a drain on your budget and greatly increase your risk of death. A  train and some sneaker would make them obsolete for a lot of people.

Face it man, the world is a changing place and the time of personal vehicle dealerships are dieing the United States. I don't think the number of dealerships has ever gone anywhere but down since the 40's. Don't take it as a personal insult (which is seems you have), it's simply life. Look at all the other industries it has happened in.


I do love a good rant now and again. You can't take that away from me.

Personal? Krist, this is the internet. You are nothing to me but words on a screen, as I should be to you.

I don't think it's possible to take any of this personally.
 
2013-02-20 09:47:04 AM  

heypete: My wife bought a car a few years ago. She did all the research on various car sides (e.g. edmunds.com), reviewed the online inventory for multiple dealers in town, found the exact model and trim package that she wanted, and did all the negotiations by phone (less pressure that way). The dealers all competed with each other for her business, would offer to beat other dealer prices, etc. She kept meticulous notes of each conversation and when certain details were to be discussed (for example, the price) would record the call and got the dealer consent to do so -- that way there'd be no misconceptions or "he said, she said" accusations.

Finally, after she got the best offer from one dealer she physically went into the shop to finalize the sale. Even then, they tried pulling a lot of bogus stuff, tried to sell her useless add-ons, services, doing shady financial stuff, etc. On several occasions they tried saying certain things were required (and she knew they weren't) and so she got up to walk. They ended up changing their minds and suddenly "required" things became "optional".

She ended up buying the car that she wanted at the priced that had been previously agreed upon with no extras. They even removed the dealer sticker and license plate frame as a condition of the sale.

Moral of the story: do your research online and contact dealers by phone ahead of time (preferably by Google Voice so you can block their annoying follow-up calls that they make for weeks afterwards even after requesting that they don't call you). Be prepared to walk if they try pulling anything shady. There's no need to be an ass to car dealers, as they're just doing their job, but don't get suckered.

/dislikes having to interact with salesmen and high-pressure sales tactics


I tried to do similar to that.  Unfortunately, when I tried to walk that dealer already knew the options I wanted.  The two available vehicles with those options were then on 'hold' for shipment to his dealership when I tried to contact the dealer with the second best promise.  I ended up with the choice of trying to argue through his price increases or changing to a far lesser option set or another vehicle.

I'm still not entirely certain how to avoid that particular trap.  They really didn't care if I hated them or if they blatantly lied multiple times.  It's not like it's a purchase you repeat every month, so why should they care?  They have the highest sales in the state due to traps and lies, and while I've since heard the same story from other sources, it just isn't something most people tend to recommend for or against regularly and remember for that long.  I do go to a different dealer for warranty work, because it is evident the first never wants to see their sales customers again, and have actually run into quite a few at the new dealership with cars from the first who would never ever go to them for service - but it's too late for it to matter on the sale.
 
2013-02-20 09:50:09 AM  

nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager


If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.
 
2013-02-20 09:56:32 AM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news


It's Fark.com!
 
2013-02-20 10:00:23 AM  
Most of the time, car dealers actually make up a substantial proportion of state legislatures and have for decades. It's not so much a conspiracy as it is legislators outright writing legislation that will benefit their family and friends. The general public? Meh, fark 'em.
 
2013-02-20 10:03:50 AM  

ErinPac: heypete: My wife bought a car a few years ago. She did all the research on various car sides (e.g. edmunds.com), reviewed the online inventory for multiple dealers in town, found the exact model and trim package that she wanted, and did all the negotiations by phone (less pressure that way). The dealers all competed with each other for her business, would offer to beat other dealer prices, etc. She kept meticulous notes of each conversation and when certain details were to be discussed (for example, the price) would record the call and got the dealer consent to do so -- that way there'd be no misconceptions or "he said, she said" accusations.

Finally, after she got the best offer from one dealer she physically went into the shop to finalize the sale. Even then, they tried pulling a lot of bogus stuff, tried to sell her useless add-ons, services, doing shady financial stuff, etc. On several occasions they tried saying certain things were required (and she knew they weren't) and so she got up to walk. They ended up changing their minds and suddenly "required" things became "optional".

She ended up buying the car that she wanted at the priced that had been previously agreed upon with no extras. They even removed the dealer sticker and license plate frame as a condition of the sale.

Moral of the story: do your research online and contact dealers by phone ahead of time (preferably by Google Voice so you can block their annoying follow-up calls that they make for weeks afterwards even after requesting that they don't call you). Be prepared to walk if they try pulling anything shady. There's no need to be an ass to car dealers, as they're just doing their job, but don't get suckered.

/dislikes having to interact with salesmen and high-pressure sales tactics

I tried to do similar to that.  Unfortunately, when I tried to walk that dealer already knew the options I wanted.  The two available vehicles with those options were then on 'hold' for shipment to his dealership w ...


I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot.  The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice.    Both times they've agreed.
 
2013-02-20 10:10:03 AM  

gingerjet: I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.


Why can't you?
 
2013-02-20 10:20:36 AM  

Yogimus: http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/


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Awesome, but how does this help me buy a car?
 
2013-02-20 10:20:48 AM  

jpadc: As normal with NPR stories they miss (probably intentionally) an important part of these laws. The laws also protect consumers by requiring that manufactures drop cars off at dealers and then dealer are responsible for the final check that all the lights work, the brakes work,vital functions like wipers are operational. Basically that the car is safe  to drive. Even if the manufacture checks them as they come off the lot, theses things can be damaged in shipment. If I buy a book off the internet and its not assembled properly or damaged in shipment, my use of it can not kill myself or more importantly other people not involved in the transaction. A car delivered with brakes that are faulty can kill many people. Dealers are REQUIRED by those very same laws to make sure the new car can be safely operated on public roads.


Bull.  If the manufacturer sold direct to the consumer, it would also have to do those checks; it would just be a manufacturer employee doing them at delivery time.

The car manufacturers themselves hate car dealerships.  They want to sell direct to the consumer, via the internet and via factory-owned dealerships, but they can't due to the various state laws requiring them to sell via independent dealers.
 
2013-02-20 10:21:57 AM  
The last time I bought a car (used, in 2008), I did that whole thing of "this is what it's worth, this is what I'm offering, only call me if/when you are ready to sell to me at that price, cash" and walked away. It worked. But then I had to go pick it up and suffer through the showroom sit-and-wait while they fark around and try to sneak in extras. My strategy? I started singing with the Muzak. I can't sing worth a fark. I got louder and louder, the longer they made me wait. At one point, I asked an older salesman to join me on the dance floor. They could not WAIT to get me out of their showroom, pronto.

Fark with me, I'll fark back.
 
2013-02-20 10:25:16 AM  

Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.


These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.
 
2013-02-20 10:28:35 AM  
liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right
 
2013-02-20 10:29:22 AM  

Neondistraction: king of vegas: In Vegas the car dealerships are required to be closed on Sundays and it irritates the heck out of me.

Do you buy new cars that frequently that the dealerships not being open one day out of the week is a big deal for you?


It was out of gas I had to replace it.
 
2013-02-20 10:31:49 AM  

spickus: gingerjet: I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.

Why can't you?


Some state laws have restrictions on this, mainly those that have stricter emmission requirements than the Federal minimum (IE, California).  Less of an issue these days (most engines are 50-state certified now), but 20 or 30 years ago, certain engines couldn't meet the California pollution standards, and had the state not banned the practice, lots of people would drive to Arizona or Nevada and buy said cars with said engines.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29.htm
 
hej
2013-02-20 10:32:53 AM  

ErinPac: Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.

These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.


http://www.google.com/search?q=factory+order+car
 
2013-02-20 10:40:56 AM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right


Citationneeded.jpg. Plus, it wouldn't be hard for the OEM to have a list of certified shops.

You also seem to be assuming that the manufacturer is incapable of providing said services directly and no differently than a middle-man dealer.

Also, if you're going to converse with someone on Fark, it's polite to properly quote them. Makes it easier to know when someone is speaking in your general direction. Unless you're trying to "win" by hoping that they don't notice and subsequently don't offer a rebuttal.
 
2013-02-20 10:49:11 AM  
In 1997, I bought a brand-new Land Rover Discovery here in Dallas, and it was quite possibly the best car-buying experience ever.  I was treated like an actual human being.  The sales guy NEVER had to go "talk to the manager" about anything, and when I finally did strike a deal, they rolled out the red carpet, literally.

The car was delivered with a full tank of gas, and a large wicker picnic hamper filled with assorted English foods.  It also came with a no-charge 4 year/100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper all-inclusive zero deductible warranty, and 4 year, 90,000 mile free scheduled maintenance, including free loaners for any service stay..

Not sure now with the changes in ownership if it'd be the same now.. Tata seems to be holding the brand true to its origins.
 
2013-02-20 10:53:35 AM  
I've been in the car business for 24 years. I've been a salesman, a sales manager, used car manager, F&I, and General Manager. I have only worked at 3 stores and never saw go on what so many in this thread have seen in dealing with car sales people. How the hell those dealers stay in business is a mystery to me.

The old adage  "Make somebody happy and they may tell 3-4 people. Piss them off and they'll tell  everybody" is very true. The business model I've always used is top shelf customer service. I honestly thought the days of the car guy in a plaid coat telling you lies ended in the 70's early 80's. Apparently not if what so many have written in this thread is true.

To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.
 
2013-02-20 10:56:21 AM  

ErinPac: Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.

These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.


Sometimes i can be cheaper to fly to another part of the country and drive back than use a local dealship if they are trying to fark with you. If it is a savings of a few thousand dollars a one way ticket and gas money can save you in the long run.
 
2013-02-20 10:56:29 AM  

Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.


So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.
 
2013-02-20 10:59:39 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.


I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)
 
2013-02-20 10:59:58 AM  

sonorangal: A similar story was aired on NPR on the way to work a while back about a woman who wanted to order either a Honda or Toyota online and have it made to order. She could do that but had to have the car delivered to a dealer specializing in the company to do the transaction to get the sales.  It made the price of the car much higher in price.

Found out that the automobile industry had got a law passed so that all new cars had to be sold by a dealer. I had never knew about the law until that story.  I wonder why it has not been challenged, but I can guess.

Another story I also heard is why America can not have an efficient commuter or long distance passenger rail systems is because the tracks in the US are privately owned and the owners are afraid it would slow down freight shipping and refuse to share the track. So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.


You can't run bullet trains on existing track in the US. That technology requires seamless track, poured in place.

The reason we won't have bullet trains is the airline lobbyists. In TX, it would be faster and cheaper to take high speed rail between Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, but every time someone brings it up, Southwest Airlines kills it.
 
2013-02-20 11:03:20 AM  

poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.


I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.
 
2013-02-20 11:04:05 AM  

Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.


I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

kalecoauto.com
 
2013-02-20 11:06:18 AM  

nolanomad: poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.

I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...


People only do that because dealers try to tack on so many bullshiat charges and are so slippery when it comes to getting a definitive that we don't trust you.   So cry about it all you want, dealers taught people they were shady, people don't respect dealers now.
 
2013-02-20 11:11:38 AM  

markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]


Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.
 
2013-02-20 11:13:30 AM  

nolanomad: poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.

I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...


I'll give you an example. I went to buy a used 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 that had been advertised for 19K, had about 50K miles on it, and an accident.

When we arrived they were prompt to get us in the vehicle, didn't even bother with copying our driver's licenses.  On the test drive, the dealer knew absolutely nothing about the vehicle besides what was on the window sticker and in general didn't really seem to care what we thought of this car.

We got back to the dealership and started looking over everything since we were still considering the purchase.   The car had been in an accident and there was still visible damage on the fender, bent metal and chipped paint.   Also dirty seats and a few other spots that hurt the value of the car.

When we sat down the dealer started filling out all of the paperwork without even discussing the price, he assumed we wanted to pay sticker and any attempts to bring up what price we wanted were dismissed until he had wasted 20 minutes going through all this paperwork.

The car was priced accurately for one in pristine condition and with 10k less miles and two years younger than this one.  Finally we were able to make our offer, this is where the ridiculous act started, "okay, let me check with my manager, but first I have to know you'll purchase today, like write a check and sign it today"  the counter offer came back with the original price and an offer to detail the vehicle.  So we got up to leave, he then begs us to let the manager talk to us.   Thinking this is part of the deal I agree.   So this guy walks over, ignores me and starts talking to my wife in the most patronizingly way possible  "Sweetie, we can't put you in that car for that ridiculous amount, we could sell one of these brand new for 30k."(This was a lie, I can spec a top of the line model brand new from Mazda for 24k) and then proceeds to offer to put us in a completely different car for that amount.

This happened in June of 2012
 
2013-02-20 11:15:13 AM  
State's rights.
 
2013-02-20 11:18:25 AM  

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)


You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.
 
2013-02-20 11:19:20 AM  

Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.


Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
madjackdiesel.com

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...
 
2013-02-20 11:26:04 AM  
I currently have 3 cars and 2 of them I bought online sight unseen.  Negotiated the deals via email, got a check, went to the dealer, did the deal and went home.  On one I even had a trade.  no problems, no drama, no BS.  (one was from offleaseonly.com which I highly recommend).

All my cars are used though, mainly because the Stealerships are horrible.  Many stealerships use the same training method for the sales force and won't go outside that method.  It's the payment method, back and forth, spend a day at the dealership hell method.  If you walk in with cash they don't know what to do with you.  This method causes a decrease in sales.  I'll never forget my Dad buying a new Corvette many years ago from Reedman in Langhorn PA.  The place was huge, we got driven to the Corvette lot where they are lined up by color.  My Dad picks one, they radio in the number on the window and someone radios back the sale price.  No haggling or BS.  We left with the car that day.  We had gone to other dealers that use 'the method' and walked out every time.
 
2013-02-20 11:28:14 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.


and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.
 
2013-02-20 11:30:13 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.


I'm terribly curious where you are getting these figures. I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best. At a guess, your information is severely outdated.
 
2013-02-20 11:33:40 AM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right




It was stripped when we took it off.
 
2013-02-20 11:33:58 AM  
I remember reading either an interview with Lee Iacocca or an excerpt from his book where he said (paraphrasing) that as far as a lucrative career choice he would rather have owned a dealership than run a car factory, because that's where the real money is. I assume he was talking about the top tier dealerships, but still...

I'm pretty sure Lee's dealership wouldn't have been operating on a 1% profit margin, as one of the above posters claimed.
 
2013-02-20 11:36:34 AM  

Yellow Beard: Lol, what do I know?


Better get your sarcasm sensor checked by the service dept.. ;)
 
2013-02-20 11:38:30 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?


We're not exactly rolling in cash to do that.  During the bankruptcy we took the opening to kill off a number of sleezebag dealers where we could, but it wasn't perfect.  Challenging the dealers presents problems in that it costs money in court and even if we win we'd still likely have to:

1.  Buy them out or obey other clauses in our contracts with them regarding termination.
2.  Instantly replace their sales and service or lose sales.
3.  Deploy all kinds of local marketing that the dealer used to do.

The long term dream is to run with smaller dealerships that have cars you can test drive and some cars right there for people that absolutely must leave with a car today (you'd be amazed at the number of people who buy that way).  However the majority of the stock will be moved to facilities where the cars come in on trains, are unloaded, and wait to be purchased.  You go to the showroom and test drive, place your order, and it shows up at the dealership or your house the next day (or that weekend) on a truck.

Ideally we want to change American car buying habits away from the "I must buy this and leave with this right now" mindset over to planned replacement.  We'll focus on displaying the cars at various places (as opposed to just the local mall) in ways that display all the interiors, colors, etc you can get.  The dealership just becomes the service center and the hub for test vehicles.  You make your choice and order it.  Common feature sets will be manufactured and custom ones will take 1 to 2 weeks to be produced and shipped.  Ideally you punch what you want into a computer and a program either locates the nearest match or orders some robot to start making it within 5 minutes of the order being placed.
 
2013-02-20 11:39:45 AM  
Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.


Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?
 
2013-02-20 11:41:51 AM  

Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.


So if most of the money is in service, why fark around with selling cars?  The contract is already in place to do warranty service for that brand.  You get to ditch a large sales, finance and other staff.  The advertising budget is lower as you don't have to advertise, you just have to wait for folks that buy the brands car to show up for service.

I really see no need for the dealership model that is around today.  It was started to serve the manufacturers need to have a steady purchaser for their products.  Now it is just a middle man that both the makers and consumer hate to deal with for the most part.
 
2013-02-20 11:43:16 AM  

nolanomad: I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best.



Which one? I'll Google it up for you.
 
2013-02-20 11:43:56 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.

Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?


The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point. Unless you are of course referring to the old practice of ADP (additional dealer profit) stickers. I don't know anybody around me that still uses them.
 
2013-02-20 11:45:10 AM  
ha-ha-guy:  Ideally we want to change American car buying habits away from the "I must buy this and leave with this right now" mindset over to planned replacement.  We'll focus on displaying the cars at various places (as opposed to just the local mall) in ways that display all the interiors, colors, etc you can get.  The dealership just becomes the service center and the hub for test vehicles.  You make your choice and order it.  Common feature sets will be manufactured and custom ones will take 1 to 2 weeks to be produced and shipped.  Ideally you punch what you want into a computer and a program either locates the nearest match or orders some robot to start making it within 5 minutes of the order being placed.

I love it. It will never happen.
 
2013-02-20 11:50:48 AM  
Test drove this baby back in 1997. Paid cold, hard cash for it. Private party. 229k miles later and still purs like a kitten. Only had to replace a clutch.

carphotos.cardomain.com
 
2013-02-20 11:52:25 AM  

wingnut396: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

So if most of the money is in service, why fark around with selling cars?  The contract is already in place to do warranty service for that brand.  You get to ditch a large sales, finance and other staff.  The advertising budget is lower as you don't have to advertise, you just have to wait for folks that buy the brands car to show up for service.

I really see no need for the dealership model that is around today.  It was started to serve the manufacturers need to have a steady purchaser for their products.  Now it is just a middle man that both the makers and consumer hate to deal with for the most part.


I need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you. At some point in time, it was decided that big ticket items- vehicles, real estate- could be negotiated. If you got screwed by a dealer/salesman/etc at a car place, go elsewhere... but just a heads up, a moment's thought:

If you could screw over a dealer, you would, wouldn't you? Yes, you would. Hey look, we're both a$$holes. I just love how people will go on about how sleazy and smarmy car guys are, but will not hesitate to screw them over given the chance- and believe me, I have seen some pieces of work on the customer side of the desk. Both sides come to the table expecting the other to lie, and so both pre-emptively lie. It's the business, sadly. One last thought: Many manufacturers have, on a few occasions, tried fixed pricing to sell cars, and you know what? People STILL try to negotiate. So, I guess even if we try to shoot straight, you still figure you can get a "better deal".
 
2013-02-20 11:52:52 AM  
Oh and fark the Service people too.   I took my last car in to get looked over and they came back with a 6K bill.  The car is only worth 3.5K.

For replacing the rear brake pads and rotors they wanted 800 dollars.   I got it done in 2 hours for 90 in parts.

My turn signals weren't working, they'd flick on and then do nothing.  Bluegrass Audi wanted 800 dollars to fix it.  I got it done in 10 mintues for 40 dollars.  There was seriously a little relay box that needed to be replaced, all you had to do was pop off a small peice of dash trim, slide it out, and another one back in, similar to a PC's harddrive.
 
2013-02-20 11:53:41 AM  

Great Janitor: Buy it pre-owned and it doesn't lose all it's value instantly.


I only buy used cars. New cars are insanely priced. My most recent purchase was a used Subaru Forester. So far, I'm loving it. :)

Got it for a decent price too. Should last me for about 150k miles or more.
 
2013-02-20 11:54:23 AM  

spickus: nolanomad: I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best.


Which one? I'll Google it up for you.


Yes, because if it's on the internet, it must be true. Was a random GMC Acadia, they have little to no markup, but don't let that stop you from thinking there's thousands left on the table.
 
2013-02-20 11:57:49 AM  

spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.


Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)


spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?


Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.


But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?
 
2013-02-20 12:00:28 PM  
Car dealers are dicks. The last time I went to buy a car (new) I gave them my keys so they could assess trade-in value. The salesman kept trying to push cars onto me that I didn't want, ignoring the very specific ask I had, which was last year's model (it was change-over time) with manual in silver. He even took me on a test drive and stopped to get gas! No only did we have to drive around the lot for 10 minutes trying to find the goddamn car (which wasn't manual) but then he made me stop at the gas station up the street while he filled it up! Screw you, budday. While all this was going on my wife found the car we wanted at another dealer so we told them we were leaving. They got pissy and started to try to get me to stay. I literally asked for my keys back five times, each time more forcefully. Finally the head dealer basically threw my keys at me across the desk in disgust.

Not really a very CSB, but I farking hate every one of those arsewads.
 
2013-02-20 12:10:07 PM  
nolanomad:Yes, because if it's on the internet, it must be true. Was a random GMC Acadia, they have little to no markup, but don't let that stop you from thinking there's thousands left on the table.


Don't go getting defensive just yet.

For that vehicle, it appears to be just as you said. But since I found it on the internet, it can't possibly be true.

30 seconds on Google tells the average consumer (me) that there is 6-9% AVERAGE markup on cars.  You and Google are telling me that in recent years that this margin is becoming increasingly slim. Fair enough.
 
2013-02-20 12:10:36 PM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right


Do you work in a dealer garage? Because you are vastly exaggerating their relative competency and importance.
 
2013-02-20 12:16:53 PM  
images.thecarconnection.com

Reserve it online.
Spec it online.
Arrange for home delivery.

Never step foot in a Tesla Dealership.
 
2013-02-20 12:19:00 PM  

Yellow Beard: spickus: Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.

Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point. Unless you are of course referring to the old practice of ADP (additional dealer profit) stickers. I don't know anybody around me that still uses them.


A few dealers around here like to put something like "Market Adjust Fee" after the MSRP, jacking up the price a few thousand. I've yet to see the same fee on other big ticket items.
 
2013-02-20 12:24:04 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: [images.thecarconnection.com image 640x426]

Reserve it online.
Spec it online.
Arrange for home delivery.

Never step foot in a Tesla Dealership.




www.maldivesdivetravel.com
 
2013-02-20 12:34:20 PM  

nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?"

Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.
 
2013-02-20 12:37:15 PM  

nolanomad: If you could screw over a dealer, you would, wouldn't you?


I have to confess I am guilty of this.  Last time I was buying a car, I added in some extra deductions to the price at the last minute.  I also kept calling my manager to approve prices changes.  Then, after we negotiated the price, options and extras, I stole the floor mats out his personal vehicle.  Happens all the time.

nolanomad: I need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you.


The middle man is going away for many industries if you have not noticed.  Authors and musicians don't need huge publishing houses to pimp their work anymore.  Ebook and MP3 have these middle men flipping the fark out.  Apple is going gangbusters selling directly to consumers in their themed and knowledgeable stores.  Southwest does not hurt itself by refusing to participate in putting their flights in online sites like Expedia and such and this is not unnoticed by other airlines.

The butcher and the grocer provide a valuable skill that I don't due to experience and/or equipment.  Exactly what skill is the dealership providing that I can't provide for myself?   While everyone talks about how they are out there, I've met very few knowledgeable and helpful sales folks that can talk intelligently about their products compared to the competition.  Mostly they can talk about the features, but often I know more than the sales guy I am with.  This fails to impress upon me on how their service is as valuable as a butcher.  Most seem to only know what inventory their manager wants them to get out the door for that week.  Again, how is this a service to me?

In your case a distiller is more like a manufacturer and the distributors would be more akin to a dealership.  Aside from age laws around booze, I see no reason why one could not purchase directly from the distiller.

And a shoe salesman.. really?  Yes finding the shoe in my size in the stockroom back is a extremely valuable skill that I can't live without.

I'll admit I may be wrong.  New car sales folks may provide a valuable service to the consumers of the USA.  I have just never personally experienced this valuable service.
 
2013-02-20 12:38:52 PM  

spickus: spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.

But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?


yes, you are. You asked if dealers quote higher or lower than msrp. I answered your question. If you are silly enough to pay msrp, good on ya. I am sure the salesman and his manager will not only appreciate it, they will high five each other too.
 
2013-02-20 12:47:20 PM  

AverageAmericanGuy: Amazon killed Borders. Now people without the Internet can't buy books.

So, yeah, it sounds great and it's really convenient to buy stuff online and have it delivered. But once you leave your little technologically enhanced sphere, there are plenty of disadvantaged people out there that rely on bricks and mortar stores to supply their needs. If you kill off the local dealership, you're taking that choice away from them and hurting us all.


They weren't readying books anyway bro.
 
2013-02-20 12:51:45 PM  

nolanomad: Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...


This is why we have to have the non-competitive litany of laws to preserve to oligolopoly of dealerships.  Otherwise where would people get these shiatty jobs that they like to biatch about on the internet?  Retail?  Puh-leeze!
 
2013-02-20 12:52:41 PM  
Went to dealer, ordered a truck with the options I wanted. And stated in build order that customer takes delivery at assembly plant. 8 weeks later flew up to Fort Wayne and picked up my silverado. No destination charge, and even used GM family discount. Being in a small town has its merits. I did buy extended warranty from dealer, boy was I glad I did.
 
2013-02-20 12:54:03 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: [images.thecarconnection.com image 640x426]

Reserve it online.
Spec it online.
Arrange for home delivery.

Never step foot in a Tesla Dealership.


Then find out the roof line is too low and the seats painfully uncomfortable. Anybody who buys a car without test driving it first is a goddamn idiot.
 
2013-02-20 12:55:20 PM  

nolanomad: need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you. At some point in time, it was decided that big ticket items- vehicles, real estate- could be negotiated. If you got screwed by a dealer/salesman/etc at a car place, go elsewhere... but just a heads up, a moment's thought:


They add value.

Dealers don't.
 
2013-02-20 01:14:14 PM  

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Babwa Wawa: MaudlinMutantMollusk: It's not news

Anything that drives public awareness of this mockery of the free market is a good thing.

Ok, then

/more people will be aware that nothing is going to change
//call me cynical, if you will


That's probably what pre-Revolution France, the British American Colonies, Britian-Occupied India, and every literature dystopia heard from more than a few people as well. Wonder how that turned out?

/People are assholes and idiots, but occasionally get it right. Don't doubt that, given enough time, they will.
 
2013-02-20 01:15:07 PM  
In 2000 I bought a car on carsdirect from a dealer in New Jersey.  It was the most satisfying car buying experience I have ever had.  Then I moved to Oklahoma where people worship the car dealers as celebrities, even though they are all scumbags.
 
2013-02-20 01:45:50 PM  
I hate car dealers and car salespeople (the women are just as bad as the men).

Few things would make me happier than to see them all unemployed.
 
hej
2013-02-20 01:49:51 PM  

Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.


What does this say about the viability of dealers who sell reliable cars with reasonable repair costs?
 
2013-02-20 01:58:21 PM  

stonicus: nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.


Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal". They go to the place with the lowest price, get treated like crap, then complain that car salesmen are sleazy, slimy misbegotten wretches... meanwhile, across town, there's the other place, yes, the price might be a bit higher, but hey look- the guy that sold you your last car is a manager now, and remembers you. And they are actually here to take care of you, make sure you get a vehicle that works for you, give a crap and will be here when you're ready to trade it 3, 5, 7 years from now. But WAIT- you can get a "better deal" Joe McCrappy's place! Sure, they treat you like shiat, and the guy that sells you your new car knows nothing about it's equipment (he started last week and will be selling mattresses in six months because he couldn't cut it) but you got the BEST PRICE! Then when you realize how shiatty the service is, and they jacked you six ways to Sunday (or at least tried) you find an online forum to biatch about how we're all a steaming pile of crooks and thieves. Again, read that last comment- if you've never been in the business you have no idea. Thin of it as upscale version of waiting tables: it's the kind of thing you should actually have to *do* before you mock.

/rant off
//for now.
 
2013-02-20 02:05:51 PM  

hej: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

What does this say about the viability of dealers who sell reliable cars with reasonable repair costs?


See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.
 
2013-02-20 02:06:12 PM  

hej: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

What does this say about the viability of dealers who sell reliable cars with reasonable repair costs?


New car dealers really aren't all that reasonable in their repairs. Typical labor rates in my area at new car dealers are $90+ per hour. A true "A" mechanic here averages about $20 per hour. Also don't forget about warranty work which even the best cars occasionally need. I can't speak to other franchises but at our Mitsubishi store in Philly, we got full labor rate plus we could mark up the parts 20% for all warranty claims.

Many people will only go to the dealer for service, even routine maintenance items. They are paying the bills at the dealership.
 
2013-02-20 02:25:01 PM  

nolanomad: stonicus: nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.

Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal". They go to the place with the lowest price, get treated like crap, then complain that car salesmen are sleazy, slimy misbegotten wretches... meanwhile, across town, there's the other place, yes, the price might be a bit higher, but hey look- the guy that sold you your last car is a manager now, and remembers you. And they are actually here to take care of you, make sure you get a vehicle that works for you, give a crap and will be here when you're ready to trade it 3, 5, 7 years from now. But WAIT- you can get a "better deal" Joe McCrappy's place! Sure, they treat you like shiat, and the guy that sells you your new car knows nothing about it's equipment (he started last week and will be selling mattresses in six months because he couldn't cut it) but you got the BEST PRICE! Then when you realize how shiatty the service is, and they jacked you six ways to Sunday (or at least tried) you find an online forum to biatch about how we're all a steaming pile of crooks and thieves. A ...


And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much.
 
2013-02-20 02:39:29 PM  
I bought a car last year, a new 2012 Mazda3 skyactive. When I asked the dealer to show me an offer he came back at full msrp. I just laughed and told him to try harder, there are half a dozen great cars in this sector and a few dealerships for each, my options are vast. I ended up getting a decent price on the car and a great price on my trade.
 
2013-02-20 02:41:32 PM  
Girion47
And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.
 
2013-02-20 02:49:57 PM  
nolanomad:
Think you missed that last statement. Also, what do you do for a living? Not being snarky here, but honestly, if say... half your clientele just walked out because they could save a buck at a crappier place across town, your business is nicer, staff friendlier, customer service better... but hey look at this dollar I saved! Something to ponder. Because, I'll let you in on something: those crappy dealers? They stay open because people want the "best price" which does not always mean the "best deal".

Hmmm....sounds an awful lot like the way Wal-Mart runs their business. It's as if people place a lot of value on the bottom line cost of goods.

So....I'm sorry, what value are you providing along the way here, again?
 
2013-02-20 03:00:38 PM  

Great Janitor: gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday

I actually know why some lots are closed on Sundays.  Well, some states say that car lots must be closed on Sundays, others, like Texas, says it has to be either Saturday or Sunday.  The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

Car sales is a weird industry.  People only go to dealerships to buy cars, never because they have 30 minutes to spare.  Most of the time buyers know what car they want to buy when they go to the dealerships (exception are used car lots where the inventory changes day to day).  However, most car salesmen have a close ratio of less than 30%.  Mathematically, you'd look at the number of salesmen on the lot, the number of customers who visit, and figure that each salesman is closing one sale a day, at least.  But no.  Part of it is car salesman who starts off with "Can I help you?"  That phrase can instantly kill a sale.  And the other part are customers who have an odd problem with car salesman.  Which is really stupid.  The customer goes to buy a car, runs into a car salesman and says "Just looking." or runs off when a car salesman approaches.  That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.  (and, by the way, while a car salesman really shouldn't say 'Can I help you?', a Doctor is there is actually help you, so they can say it and not sound stupid).  And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sale ...


Rolls eyes. Sorry, the salesmen that lie (and there are plenty of them) take a job at a new dealership all the time. I know one salesman who has stayed put for years; he was easy to deal with, and obviously lived on referrals. Most of the rest of the car salesmen I've encountered were only on the job a few months, and thought nothing of lying through their teeth.
 
2013-02-20 03:07:36 PM  

Yellow Beard: Girion47
And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.


I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.
 
2013-02-20 03:09:22 PM  

Girion47: Yellow Beard: Girion47
And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.

I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.


and that is the smartest thing to do with your trade. However, many don't want to go through that process.
 
2013-02-20 03:27:14 PM  

Yellow Beard: Girion47: Yellow Beard: Girion47
And then you have dealers offering wholesale on your trade in when the NADA value is 3 times as much

You could always try calling NADA or KBB and ask them to send you a check for the amount they say your car is worth.

There really are just 2 ways to buy a car when you have a trade; wholesale to wholesale (smart) or retail to retail (not so smart). You cannot honestly expect full retail for your trade when you are paying right at invoice (wholesale) for the new car.
I went private sale and got a TON more money and I had the car sold within a week.

and that is the smartest thing to do with your trade. However, many don't want to go through that process.


We traded in a used VW New Beetle.  186,000 miles, no working AC, CEL, burned oil like a boss, airbag light on, key-chip dying, so you could never really be sure the immobilizer would let the car keep running...

I wouldn't have sold that car to my worst enemy; it was a ticking time-bomb.  Mrs. Orange and I were shocked to get $1000 in trade for it, because it's pretty much scrap.

We ended up with a 2011 Civic LX-S, for $2000 under book value.  Had fun playing Dealers off each other - at one point we (test) drove a 2010 in exactly the same color and trim to the dealer, we ended up buying from and told him that was what we were thinking about, but didn't tell him what the other guy's price was.  So, we ended up saving a couple grand, on a year newer model with half the miles.
 
2013-02-20 03:28:05 PM  

Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...


Man, those things are solutions just looking for a problem...
 
2013-02-20 03:33:16 PM  
well done Mr Orange.
Personally, we give you our best shot first time out of the gate. If you can find a better deal, god bless and best wishes but keep us in mind for the next one. Buying a car should be fun and if it seems like a hated job then find a different dealer regardless of the price. Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.
 
2013-02-20 03:53:38 PM  

Yellow Beard: well done Mr Orange.
Personally, we give you our best shot first time out of the gate. If you can find a better deal, god bless and best wishes but keep us in mind for the next one. Buying a car should be fun and if it seems like a hated job then find a different dealer regardless of the price. Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.


I quite enjoyed the experience.  I dealt with half a dozen salesmen at as many Dealers, and can't say anything bad about any of them.  They were helpful, and polite, but in the end only one can actually make the deal I want.  Only two follow-up calls, and even they took the news respectfully, asking that we keep them in mind the next time.

I've always joked that my ideal retirement would be to be a Lexus salesman.  Just be nice and friendly, selling a great product to people who know what they want.
 
2013-02-20 03:57:08 PM  

nolanomad: 1) yep, salesmen lie. you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.


Too bad.  They obviously were looking, until they found something they wanted to know more about and/or buy.  Did you really interpret their comment as meaning that they were just idling spending time looking at cars, with no intention to buy one?


2) better deal if you pay cash? hey the 80s called... we take deals that are so damn slim would make you wonder how we stay in business. I can say without hesitation or doubt that WEEKLY, we sell vehicles that are $50-60k and make a whopping 500-750 in profit. For those of you playing the home game, that's a 1% profit. Stop by your local grocer and tell them that you only want them to make 1% in profit. They will laugh their ass off. And probably throw something at you.

Frankly, I don't believe this.    The numbers just don't work.  Dealerships would have sell an astronomical number of cars just to keep the lights on and cover basic overhead.   There are some dealers that do quite well, and there is no way they are doing it on $500 per car sold.
 
2013-02-20 04:03:06 PM  

Sasquach: Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

Man, those things are solutions just looking for a problem...


It isn't like the thing is exposed to the road, there's a cover over it.
 
2013-02-20 04:04:29 PM  

nolanomad: See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.



Is the "rundown place" offering rundown cars? Factory seconds?

New cars are fungible commodities.  Is there some reason why a customer should pay you more for the same car?   Because you have better coffee?
 
2013-02-20 04:06:27 PM  
Yellow Beard:
Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

You better believe there are.

Start with Rosenthal Nissan in Tysons Corner, VA as an example. Went there a number of years ago to look at a new Pathfinder and got the worst run around on pricing and laughed when they attempted to pull the "Well, here's a late model used one that's just as good as a new one you want, and we'll even price it a few hundred below the last price we quoted you on the new one" mess. My favorite was the "Dealer Adjustment Fee" - the rep explained that it was a special fee that was non-negotiable because it was the "cost of doing business here in an expensive place like Tysons Corner". Congratulations, moron...you gave me all the reason in the world to drive 8 miles to another Nissan dealer to buy the car I wanted.

Tried to leave the dealership and get the keys back for the vehicle I was considering trading in; despite politely requesting them from the sales rep and asst. manager for almost 15 mins, it took a loud, verbal confrontation with the sales manager (that was causing other customers to stop and look) to get any action. Fortunately, Mrs. Cashdaddy drove her car separately to the dealership, so she was able to leave and head home and not sit through the mess.

The icing on the cake: after the manager tried to get the keys back from the sales rep, he tried to get the rep to tell him where we were in the sales negotiation. The rep said something out loud like, "Naw, don't worry about this guy, boss. He's not serious about buying anything from us. He keeps trying to say that Pathfinders should be sold here for less than what's on the window." Took my keys and kept walking. The jackass sales rep actually called me the following Monday to ask me "where we were in our sales discussion", making sure to highlight the last (outrageously high) price he quoted me.

Yeah, the lousy salesmen and dealers are still around....
 
2013-02-20 04:07:03 PM  

StoPPeRmobile: It was stripped when we took it off.


Wife's car had a small oil leak around the drain screw. Had to bring it in for something else and I told the guy "If you can fix the leak for under 25 bucks, go ahead."

Leak fix price was $24.95.

I stopped for a second, decided I deserved that, and paid the man. Now I just buy my own oil gaskets for a couple of bucks.
 
2013-02-20 04:08:03 PM  

stewbert: Great Janitor: gingerjet: I can understand the idiotic laws around liquor sales because of the repeal of the 21st amendment   But car sales?  No.  I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.  But thanks to idiotic state laws, collusion, and outright threats - that isn't possible.

/also want to be able to buy a car on a fark'n sunday

I actually know why some lots are closed on Sundays.  Well, some states say that car lots must be closed on Sundays, others, like Texas, says it has to be either Saturday or Sunday.  The reason why is for the car salesman.  If the lot wasn't forced to be closed at least one day a week, then most of the salesmen would be working open to close seven days a week.

Car sales is a weird industry.  People only go to dealerships to buy cars, never because they have 30 minutes to spare.  Most of the time buyers know what car they want to buy when they go to the dealerships (exception are used car lots where the inventory changes day to day).  However, most car salesmen have a close ratio of less than 30%.  Mathematically, you'd look at the number of salesmen on the lot, the number of customers who visit, and figure that each salesman is closing one sale a day, at least.  But no.  Part of it is car salesman who starts off with "Can I help you?"  That phrase can instantly kill a sale.  And the other part are customers who have an odd problem with car salesman.  Which is really stupid.  The customer goes to buy a car, runs into a car salesman and says "Just looking." or runs off when a car salesman approaches.  That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.  (and, by the way, while a car salesman really shouldn't say 'Can I help you?', a Doctor is there is actually help you, so they can say it and not sound stupid).  And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to y ...


Rolls eyes. Sorry, the salesmen that lie (and there are plenty of them) take a job at a new dealership all the time. I know one salesman who has stayed put for years; he was easy to deal with, and obviously lived on referrals. Most of the rest of the car salesmen I've encountered were only on the job a few months, and thought nothing of lying through their teeth.

And that pretty much proves what I explained.  Most people, especially those with no prior sales experience do not understand the referral business.  They think that they can lie and cheat to sell a car, get away with it and do it again the next day.  That is one reason why car sales has such a high turn over rate.  The scummy ones that screw over customers for that commission check don't last long.  Those who treat their customers right, don't lie, build rapport, listen to the customers to help them get into the cars that they want to have at a price they can afford are the ones who remain.  And for every 10 that get hired on, one will last more than a year.
 
2013-02-20 04:08:54 PM  

bikerific: nolanomad: See previous commentary, but basically, the manufacturer makes their money first and foremost- the "cost" to a dealer is higher than what the manufacturer spends to build the car. So they're just fine. As far as the 1% thing, simply put it's because a customer will without hesitation hit up the three to five nearest dealers, try to get a price over the phone (and if you're not competitive you'll never get them in the door) and even if they do show up, and you take the time, provide good service, go over what they're looking for, etc. etc. etc. they will STILL march down the road to the next dealer and ask "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" because anything resembling customer loyalty is gone. And there's always that one place, the rundown place in the bad part of town, where they gleefully whore out their vehicles because it's the only way to get you in the door. So, simply put, the customer wants a "good price" so much that they push the dealer to that 1% line- or worse at times.


Is the "rundown place" offering rundown cars? Factory seconds?

New cars are fungible commodities.  Is there some reason why a customer should pay you more for the same car?   Because you have better coffee?


Coffee can be a factor.  Maybe the Dealer is closer, and offers a shuttle service so that when your car is in for service, you don't have to take any time off.  Maybe they're nicer about loaner cars, maybe they're more involved in the community through charities or sports... "Service" is more than just how well they fix your car, it's how well they treat you before, during, and after the sale.  Some poeple value that, and some people don't.
 
2013-02-20 04:15:41 PM  

cashdaddy: Yellow Beard:
Apparently though there are still a lot of dealers out there that like the old 3 hour negotiation and 75 follow up calls.

You better believe there are.

Start with Rosenthal Nissan in Tysons Corner, VA as an example. Went there a number of years ago to look at a new Pathfinder and got the worst run around on pricing and laughed when they attempted to pull the "Well, here's a late model used one that's just as good as a new one you want, and we'll even price it a few hundred below the last price we quoted you on the new one" mess. My favorite was the "Dealer Adjustment Fee" - the rep explained that it was a special fee that was non-negotiable because it was the "cost of doing business here in an expensive place like Tysons Corner". Congratulations, moron...you gave me all the reason in the world to drive 8 miles to another Nissan dealer to buy the car I wanted.

Tried to leave the dealership and get the keys back for the vehicle I was considering trading in; despite politely requesting them from the sales rep and asst. manager for almost 15 mins, it took a loud, verbal confrontation with the sales manager (that was causing other customers to stop and look) to get any action. Fortunately, Mrs. Cashdaddy drove her car separately to the dealership, so she was able to leave and head home and not sit through the mess.

The icing on the cake: after the manager tried to get the keys back from the sales rep, he tried to get the rep to tell him where we were in the sales negotiation. The rep said something out loud like, "Naw, don't worry about this guy, boss. He's not serious about buying anything from us. He keeps trying to say that Pathfinders should be sold here for less than what's on the window." Took my keys and kept walking. The jackass sales rep actually called me the following Monday to ask me "where we were in our sales discussion", making sure to highlight the last (outrageously high) price he quoted me.

Yeah, the lousy salesmen and dealers are sti ...


I went to the Mazda/Toyota of Tyson's once.   When we first walked in some African immigrant salesman grabbed us and berated us for not buying that day.   "With 0 down, what's the difference, buy today" and he kept getting angrier and angrier that we weren't buying.  When I finally asked him about the RX-8 I wanted to see he got extra pissed because he was Toyota only.

So we finally get to the Mazda side and get a sales guy, they have one RX-8 for us to test drive, and he couldn't tell us the trim level or anything about the car.  We also test drove a Mazdaspeed 3, again, he knew nothing about the car and would only say "yeah, you like that?" when we did pulls during the test drive.(Another reason to order your car, people looking at anything race-like are going to beat the shiat out of the engine before it is out of it's break-in period).  Anyways, he finally admitted he had only been there a month and didn't know any of the cars, so I ask to talk to his manager...It was his 3rd day on the job *facepalm*

My favorite dealer was Subaru of Alexandria, they had a guy that went on the test drive with you that wasn't on commission and could answer any question you had about the car, not only that he was able to tell me the comparable stats of all the other cars we were considering.
 
2013-02-20 04:17:44 PM  

Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...


I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place?  I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.
 
2013-02-20 04:21:29 PM  
nolanomad:
you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.
 
2013-02-20 04:22:25 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place?  I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.


It does, the valve screws in where your drain plug usually is, and the "handle" is a little metal tab that is held in place by a pretty strong spring in a notch, you have to pull on the tab and twist a quarter turn to open the valve.
 
2013-02-20 04:26:36 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Girion47: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
[madjackdiesel.com image 450x375]

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...

I couldn't see clearly, does that thing lock in place?  I'd hate for a bouncing rock to knock that valve off its seat and drain my oil pan on the highway.


Further, a ten-cent lock ring can be placed on it.  Pretty neat little timesaver.

www.fumotousa.com
 
2013-02-20 04:30:40 PM  
Snobby as it sounds, I've had nothing but positive experiences from the near-luxury dealerships (Acura, Infiniti, Lexus, BMW, etc). Even when I was young and looking for a used Integra, the Acura dealership was great. Copied my license, suggested a fun route to test drive on (don't speed *wink*), and that was it. They knew that there was a good chance of getting a customer for life; they were right.

The last few times I've been in a e.g. Pontiac/Ford/Toyota dealership, the experience was less pleasant. Maybe it's the different clientele, but the difference is very noticeable. Just based on those experiences, I'd rather buy the cheapest Acura than the most expensive Honda.
 
2013-02-20 04:38:33 PM  

cashdaddy: nolanomad:
you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.


Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied to by customer (surprise). But hey, go get your "great deal"- and enjoy the colorful neighborhood while you're at it.
 
2013-02-20 04:46:42 PM  

nolanomad: cashdaddy: nolanomad:
you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied to by cust ...


Being martyrs in front of your co-workers is probably great for you to vent, but doing it online? You're only making the impression of dealers worse.
 
2013-02-20 04:51:33 PM  

Girion47: nolanomad: cashdaddy: nolanomad:
you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in short got lied ...


Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.
 
2013-02-20 04:54:22 PM  

nolanomad: Girion47: nolanomad: cashdaddy: nolanomad:
you know who lies more? customers. Can't tell you how many times I had a customer (back when I was selling) say "Well we were just looking" and when I called to follow up the next day was told "oh we bought at XYZ dealership" oh well, go fark yourself.

#1: If I ask for your best price and then go somewhere else, where they quote me a price less than yours, remind me again why I should bother calling you back to see if you can meet or beat it? You had a chance, and someone else offers the same thing for less? Sounds like a free market working to me.....sorry, pal - why is this an issue for me, again?

#2: If your attitude towards the person saying they bought at another dealership is "oh well, go fark yourself".... well, you're not doing much to help remove the stigma of the lousy car dealer, are you?

I don't care for an emotional connection with the person selling me a car. Belive me when I say that after I buy the car, I'm going to forget about you afterwards. It's a means of transportation, and it costs me money. I'm not looking for a friend or someone that I can nod and say hello to if I come back to the same dealership next time. All I want is the lowest price I can get for a vehicle that I want - period.

Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

Incidentally, the whole "fark yourself" thing (which I did not say, just thought, I do have a few manners) was more of being told "Don't worry, Mr. Nolanomad, we'll be sure to follow up with you before we make a decision" and then them buying elsewhere thing. So, in shor ...


Why wouldn't I go for price?  Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair.   So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.
 
2013-02-20 05:01:49 PM  

Great Janitor: Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.

Imma go on a limb and say that's a really stupid analogy.  The idea that I need a car salesman as much as I need a doctor when I've got a broken arm...  That I can't look at cars on a car lot without the "assistance" of a salesperson.  Well, hell, I don't even know how to express how dumb that idea is.

The role of the salesman, or at least the way I do it, I make it clear that I am there to answer all their questions about the car, if I don't know the answer I will find out with them there.  I'm also the their liaison to the person who can finalize the deal and to do everything I can to make sure that they leave with the car that they love.  And I make it crystal clear from the start "If you do not love this car, let me know now and I won't waste our time working out a deal.  Instead we will go back and find a car that you do love."   

Great Janitor: And, by the way, a good salesman isn't going to lie to you because sales is a referral business.

Oh that's just horseshiat.  First, 50% of the employees you see at a dealership will not be there the next year (http://ezinearticles.com/?High-Employee-Turnover&id=3126149).  Even if you buy a car every two f*cking years, chances are you're not going to buy it from the same guy.

And I'm going to go on a limb and say that nobody has ever - EVER - told me, "you've gotta see my guy Steve up at the Ford dealer.  He'll get you a solid deal, yessirree!"  That's absurd.  This isn't Mayberry.  The dealer and sales guy knows that they will very likely never see you again and will thus bilk you out of as much money as possible while you're in front of them.

The idea that a car salesman has any compunction about lying to you is ridiculous and contrary to nearly everyone's experience.

One reason why dealerships hav ...


quick question, are part-time salemen a thing? I'm getting out of the military sometime soon on a medical retirement, and would like to find a part-time job. But I don't want to put in six 10 hour days. I like to haggle, and I figure if I don't *need* to make a sale, I won't be stressed, and could probably do better.
 
2013-02-20 05:02:53 PM  

wingnut396: meanmutton: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.

From what I've read around the tubes is that the dealership pain in the ass experience is due to the manufacturers being greedy.  See you are not really the manufacturer's customer, the dealership is.  What the manus used to do is push whatever inventory they had to the dealers.  That way the manus had a steady stream of buyers no matter if cars were selling or not.  Some dealer going down, slow with payments, well let some other rube start up a new dealership and he can buy the inventory rolling off the assembly line.

So dealers had to band together to avoid being steamrolled by their suppliers that forced them to buy inventory that was not selling or they did not want.

Of course the market as evolved sine way back when, but the current dealer/manufacturer setup is still a remnant of that.

I'd like to see Tesla's model take off for new cars.  Go to a few specialized company owned show rooms where you can make an appointment to test drive models you care to see.  Check everything out.  If you like, order it directly from the manufacturer.  Since dealers sometimes say they make more money on service, franchise out warranty service to businesses that want to maintain the cars but not sell them.  If that is where the real money is, instead of warehousing inventory for Chevy, then go for it.

Used car lots will still be around, but you only need to look at something like CarMax to see how that is changing.  Hit up their site and you have a huge inventory to look at. If they don't have the car l ...


So when Tesla starts to sell lots of cars over the internet, directly from California into states in which Tesla has absolutely no presence, won't the local dealers (or the state governments as their proxy) litigate or regulate against Tesla?

If and when this litigation/ regulation occurs, it would seem to be a textbook example of a constitutional commerce clause violation.  That being, the state would be giving preferential treatment to local state businesses over equivalent businesses in other states.
 
2013-02-20 05:05:22 PM  

RandomRandom: wingnut396: meanmutton: RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?

For the first one: states can regulate commerce within their borders.

For the second, I'm surprised that even in Michigan, where the US auto industry in based, the cart dealers have traditionally had this much power. GM, Ford, and Chrysler must have wanted this setup, for done reason.

From what I've read around the tubes is that the dealership pain in the ass experience is due to the manufacturers being greedy.  See you are not really the manufacturer's customer, the dealership is.  What the manus used to do is push whatever inventory they had to the dealers.  That way the manus had a steady stream of buyers no matter if cars were selling or not.  Some dealer going down, slow with payments, well let some other rube start up a new dealership and he can buy the inventory rolling off the assembly line.

So dealers had to band together to avoid being steamrolled by their suppliers that forced them to buy inventory that was not selling or they did not want.

Of course the market as evolved sine way back when, but the current dealer/manufacturer setup is still a remnant of that.

I'd like to see Tesla's model take off for new cars.  Go to a few specialized company owned show rooms where you can make an appointment to test drive models you care to see.  Check everything out.  If you like, order it directly from the manufacturer.  Since dealers sometimes say they make more money on service, franchise out warranty service to businesses that want to maintain the cars but not sell them.  If that is where the real money is, instead of warehousing inventory for Chevy, then go for it.

Used car lots will still be around, but you only need to look at something like CarMax to see how that is changing.  Hit up their site and you have a huge inventory to look at. If they don't ha ...


Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.
 
2013-02-20 05:39:46 PM  

Carth: Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.


Because local car dealers are tremendously influential in local politics.  There are a lot of local legislators that are/were car dealers or have car dealer friends/families who've bankrolled their political careers.  Local car dealers have used this outsized political influence to create an environment they prefer, at great expense to the average car buyer.

It's straight up protectionism, something that the constitution was designed to prevent, at least as it regards domestic US transactions.
 
2013-02-20 05:41:09 PM  

Girion47: Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.


No, you're absolutely right, I see the error of my ways.

Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

Seeing any value yet, bright boy?
 
2013-02-20 05:44:26 PM  
nolanomad:
Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

If I'm getting the price I wanted to pay for the vehicle in the first place, then I'm getting what I feel is the best value for my money and I fail to see how I'm getting screwed.

You keep mentioning a "business relationship". Like I said earlier, I don't give a popsicle titty-fark about starting a relationship with you or anyone else in the building. If you can sell me a car at the price I want, then you have a deal; otherwise, yeah - I'll keep looking until I find one that can or adjust my expectations accordingly.

(As for being reviled and mocked for what I do for a living? Pal, I work in the energy industry for one of the large oil companies....believe me, I'm hated, reviled, blamed, and loathed by everyone, including you guys at the dealerships. Difference is, I don't get annoyed about it.)
 
2013-02-20 05:46:14 PM  

RandomRandom: Carth: Don't most states collect sales tax on cars when you register not when you buy? The place I've lived/bought cars from have all worked that way so I don't know if it is universal or just certain states. I don't see why states would care if I bought a car from a dealership two states over or online. They still get their cut.

Because local car dealers are tremendously influential in local politics.  There are a lot of local legislators that are/were car dealers or have car dealer friends/families who've bankrolled their political careers.  Local car dealers have used this outsized political influence to create an environment they prefer, at great expense to the average car buyer.

It's straight up protectionism, something that the constitution was designed to prevent, at least as it regards domestic US transactions.


Don't know where you're getting your information, or perhaps things are REALLY corrupt where you are... but here, if they purchase and title it in State, sales tax and fees are handled by us 99% of the time. If it's titled out of state, it's generally up to the customer to go to their local DMV and handle it themselves. YMMV.
 
2013-02-20 05:53:46 PM  

cashdaddy: nolanomad:
Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality, so of *course* they're the cheap place so they can get you in and then screw you- and so, by extension, all dealers and car salespeople are slime. It's quite the leap. Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

If I'm getting the price I wanted to pay for the vehicle in the first place, then I'm getting what I feel is the best value for my money and I fail to see how I'm getting screwed.

You keep mentioning a "business relationship". Like I said earlier, I don't give a popsicle titty-fark about starting a relationship with you or anyone else in the building. If you can sell me a car at the price I want, then you have a deal; otherwise, yeah - I'll keep looking until I find one that can or adjust my expectations accordingly.

(As for being reviled and mocked for what I do for a living? Pal, I work in the energy industry for one of the large oil companies....believe me, I'm hated, reviled, blamed, and loathed by everyone, including you guys at the dealerships. Difference is, I don't get annoyed about it.)


fair enough. as to business relationship see my comment just above yours.
 
2013-02-20 05:55:37 PM  
nolanomad:
Seeing any value yet, bright boy?

Yeah. I'll continue to avoid buying a GMC or Buick from you and continue servicing my car at the place that usually has 100-150 loaner cars available in their pool so that it's not an issue (ref: Pohanka Acura in northern VA. Sales staff was so-so, bought the car out of state from another dealer anyways because he had a price that couldn't be beat, but had it serviced at Pohanka because of their loaner car availability and late night service hours)
 
2013-02-20 05:56:15 PM  

nolanomad: Girion47: Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.

No, you're absolutely right, I see the error of my ways.

Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

Seeing any value yet, bright boy?


Not really, my wife would be following along in our other car and I'd leave with her, I work from home so I don't really need my vehicle that often.
 
2013-02-20 05:59:22 PM  

nolanomad: Girion47: Why wouldn't I go for price? Your shop certainly isn't the place I'm going to be using, I'm going to do the maintenance on my own unless it is warranty work, and then the Manufacturer is going to be paying for that repair. So as far as I can tell, price is what the deciding factor is.

No, you're absolutely right, I see the error of my ways.

Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

Seeing any value yet, bright boy?


And really, your "poor part of town" analogy fails miserably, in my city I have 2 official subaru dealers, have another 60 miles away, and yet a couple more in Cincy and Indy.  I'm not dependent on one dealer, and they're aware of that.   Save your scare tactics for someone that didn't work in SE DC.
 
2013-02-20 06:06:00 PM  

nolanomad: Seeing any value yet, bright boy?


It's absolutely hilarious how incapable you are at looking at yourself objectively. Honestly, I'm not surprised that you're a car salesman.

Please, give me all the info that you have that it's only possible to get a lower price than you in horrible, crime ridden areas. That seems to be your main reasoning against not going with your price; not having to deal with unsavory types nearby.

I only care about purchase price. Give me a price lower than anyone else. If you can't, then you don't get my money. If warranty work or a recall come up, then I'm taking my car to whatever dealer in whatever neighborhood I want. They'll all take me in. Loaner? I have another car and 2 motorcycles. I have my own loaners.

Give me the best price or you don't get my business. I have zero interest in having any sort of relationship with any single particular dealership for any reason other than a single purchase. I'm not coming to overpriced dealers for service or parts. I do my own service and buy superior 3rd party parts for repairs or service. New spark plugs? There's better than stock options. A new timing belt? Gee, we live in this information age and I know how to find who supplies your belts and thus who to buy directly from. OE quality or more, lower price, no hassle.

Give me the best price. I want nothing more from you. Nothing.

You are not my friend. Through the course of your job you're going to try to get as much of my money as possible. That makes you the enemy.

nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.


You choose what you do for a living. Stop trying to martyr yourself. Nothing is forcing you into this career. Btw, though, you're proving some of the the stereotypes to be true.

But ok, you want to play that game?  I work for oil refineries. Your move.
 
2013-02-20 06:28:16 PM  

nolanomad: Oh hey, theoretical situation for you... you buy your car, save the few extra bucks, get the best deal... six months down the road there's a recall, the dealer has to have your vehicle overnight. You going to go back to that crime-ridden neighborhood and hope they have a loaner for you? Somehow I doubt it, you'd go to a place where you weren't concerned about random bullets.... and hey, that's us. However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.

Seeing any value yet, bright boy?



So your idea of value is "you're going to buy a car from us for a higher price, and you're going to LIKE it! And don't even think of going to any of those five dealers across the street or next door, because that's the bad part of town and you're going to get shot if you even drive past. Oh, and our cars are built so poorly that you should expect to have a recall within your first year, but don't worry, we have one loaner car, because we can't afford a second. Wait, where are you going? Don't you walk away from me when I'm still talking! HEY YOU RAN OVER MY FOOT! WAIT LET ME SELL YOU SOMETHING!"
 
2013-02-20 06:31:11 PM  

RandomRandom: If and when this litigation/ regulation occurs, it would seem to be a textbook example of a constitutional commerce clause violation. That being, the state would be giving preferential treatment to local state businesses over equivalent businesses in other states


That is what my GED in law says, curious if it has ever been challenged.


nolanomad: Martyr might be a strong word... it's just sad that people go for the "best price", end up at a place that can only sell by price, because they aren't good enough to sell by product and quality


What about dealers that sell the same product?

If you are factoring in how nice they are for recalls, you are buying the wrong car.

I have bought three new cars in my life and my last one is the only time I am still within a 5 hour drive a year after I bought it, so I am not going to pay extra on the off chance their "hand holding" is better an I stick around.
 
2013-02-20 06:32:43 PM  

nolanomad: However, a Mr. Jones got here at the same time with the same recall. Problem is, I only have one loaner... and Mr. Jones bought his last 5 vehicles here. One guess who gets that loaner.



OK, theoretical situation time:

Against my better judgment, I do buy a car from you. At recall time, I bring the car in, and arrive at the same time as Mr. Jones who bought five cars from your dealership. So, who gets your one and only loaner? Me, with my one purchase, or Mr. Jones with his five?
 
2013-02-20 06:53:12 PM  

nolanomad: Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.


LOL.  Yeah, sure.  I trust a car dealer to have a business relationship with me.  Who the fark do you think you are kidding?
 
2013-02-20 06:54:30 PM  

TotesCrayCray: nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.


How much are you charging for the floor mats and the underspray these days?
 
2013-02-20 06:56:36 PM  

BiffDangler: TotesCrayCray: nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply. You'd get annoyed too.

How much are you charging for the floor mats and the underspray these days?


Why'd you quote me? He's the one who said it.

>_>
 
2013-02-20 07:02:54 PM  

BiffDangler: nolanomad: Then by all means, go to the one that had a drive-by in front of it last week, that closes at sundown, and will forget you exist after the purchase. In the mean time, we'll take care of our customers, provide shuttle service, loaners, good service, and hey did you know- sometimes, if you build that relationship, the dealer will give you discounts on future visits? No, of course you didn't because you have no clue what a business relationship means.

LOL.  Yeah, sure.  I trust a car dealer to have a business relationship with me.  Who the fark do you think you are kidding?


Um, all the people who greet me by name when they come in for service? All the repeat business we do? I'm kidding all of them I guess. I have to say, you go to some dealership, get a bad experience, and suddenly we're all terrible, conniving thieving lying whargarbl. I mean lord. For a group of people that are usually at least a little open minded, I'm impressed. But don't let me show you the other side of the story, sorry to suggest that we're not all bad and that you just might be wrong. Was just looking to weigh in on a subject that I find too one-sided. Incidentally, for those couple of people who mentioned oil companies, I live in SE Louisiana, but I wouldn't judge youy- maybe whoever it is at BP who cut corners, but you know, if I ran into you and you mentioned your line of work, I wouldn't judge. But t looks like everyone else does here. Good to know. As I said before, unless you've worked in the business, you have no clue. Sorry to have bothered you.
 
2013-02-20 07:25:00 PM  

RandomRandom: So when Tesla starts to sell lots of cars over the internet, directly from California into states in which Tesla has absolutely no presence, won't the local dealers (or the state governments as their proxy) litigate or regulate against Tesla?

If and when this litigation/ regulation occurs, it would seem to be a textbook example of a constitutional commerce clause violation.  That being, the state would be giving preferential treatment to local state businesses over equivalent businesses in other states.


Already happening.
 
2013-02-20 07:26:25 PM  

nolanomad: but I wouldn't judge youy- maybe whoever it is at BP who cut corners


When you buy gas or have to hear about and/or experience oil spills, you don't directly deal with the person who over-charges for gasoline/caused the spill. When car salesmen try to fark us over or lie to us to get our money, we're dealing directly with the person in the wrong. There's a BIG difference.

I've personally experience some of the garbage that people have complained about in this thread. It's not our imaginations. It actually happens. But if you want to take your toys and go home because you have no rebuttal to our points, then go for it.
 
2013-02-20 07:29:55 PM  

nolanomad: I wouldn't judge. But t looks like everyone else does here. Good to know. As I said before, unless you've worked in the business, you have no clue. Sorry to have bothered you.


By the way, that martyrdom bullshiat doesn't work on us. It's just pathetic to try to play the "woe is me" and "why are you so mean to me? [while I ignore the reasons why]" cards and expect us to feel bad.
 
2013-02-20 07:50:12 PM  
okay was going to walk away, but I guess I'm a sucker for abuse... let's see, shouldn't buy a vehicle that has recalls? Pick a manufacturer. http://www.city-data.com/forum/automotive/1744967-auto-recall-list-do n t-buy-any.html  Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership. As far as price goes, yep, sometimes our prices are a bit higher... let's say we can't come up with that extra $200 that Anytown Motors claims they can. Assuming a 5 year finance (typical), you're talking $4 a month to spend your money locally. And before you go on about how all that money goes to the manufacturer no matter where you buy, bear in that a two line dealership (like ours) can have 100 employees. So some of that money stays right here. Go ahead and say you don't give a crap about your neighbors and their income, you're welcome to be indifferent. What did I miss?
 
2013-02-20 07:52:05 PM  
ack, void your warranty. oops.
 
2013-02-20 08:05:53 PM  
Man, I gotta say, I love working for a company that has fleet perks from the major manufacturers. I go in, tell them who I work for and it's Dealer invoice plus 0.4%. If the dealer doesn't want to play ball they get a nice call from their corporate offices after our corporate fleet manager calls them.

The only car I didn't get this on was one that wasn't included in the plan (high performance car).

Takes a shiatload of pressure of me and my salesman. He gets a guaranteed sale and some commission, I get my car for a great price. Win/Win.
 
2013-02-20 08:08:56 PM  

nolanomad: I have to say, you go to some dealership, get a bad experience, and suddenly we're all terrible, conniving thieving lying whargarbl.



No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience, then you come in with a bunch of herp derp about how it's all in our imagination, no car dealer in the history of the universe has ever been anything but a perfect saint, and if we don't like it we can go risk getting shot at the dealer across the road.

Also, you never did finish your earlier theoretical situation. You claim that if we buy nothing form you, the guy who bought five cars is going to get priority for the one and only loaner your dealer can afford, but you never clarified whether buying one car will give us priority over the guy who bought five.
 
2013-02-20 08:09:13 PM  

Trocadero: I'd still need a real test drive. Same reason you don't buy sex toys online.


ewwwww
 
2013-02-20 08:13:24 PM  

nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.


Oh, it's real. My current car is one that I bought used from a dealer who got it as a trade in. They're the largest dealer of that brand within 50+ miles and they own other nearby dealerships too. They not only "offer" underspray but tried to get me to buy it.

nolanomad: Go ahead and say you don't give a crap about your neighbors and their income, you're welcome to be indifferent. What did I miss?


Likewise. Salesmen try to get as much money out of us through lying, they dick us around, and treat us as a walking dollar sign instead of a human being. They start the process of farking their neighbors out of their income.
 
2013-02-20 08:16:41 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: I have to say, you go to some dealership, get a bad experience, and suddenly we're all terrible, conniving thieving lying whargarbl.


No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience, then you come in with a bunch of herp derp about how it's all in our imagination, no car dealer in the history of the universe has ever been anything but a perfect saint, and if we don't like it we can go risk getting shot at the dealer across the road.

Also, you never did finish your earlier theoretical situation. You claim that if we buy nothing form you, the guy who bought five cars is going to get priority for the one and only loaner your dealer can afford, but you never clarified whether buying one car will give us priority over the guy who bought five.


Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on. As to the theoretical question, the 5 car guy gets the loaner, rather obvious- just like a million dollar client will get better service than a 100k one. But if you *had* bought a car here, I would *try* to find something for you to use- say, a loaner in the body shop 'casue it's scratched or ask a used car manager nicely for a used car.

You come into my dealership with another dealer's name on the back of your car? I guess you should ask them for a loaner. After all, they got you *such* a great deal...
 
2013-02-20 08:19:04 PM  

nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: I have to say, you go to some dealership, get a bad experience, and suddenly we're all terrible, conniving thieving lying whargarbl.


No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience, then you come in with a bunch of herp derp about how it's all in our imagination, no car dealer in the history of the universe has ever been anything but a perfect saint, and if we don't like it we can go risk getting shot at the dealer across the road.

Also, you never did finish your earlier theoretical situation. You claim that if we buy nothing form you, the guy who bought five cars is going to get priority for the one and only loaner your dealer can afford, but you never clarified whether buying one car will give us priority over the guy who bought five.

Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on. As to the theoretical question, the 5 car guy gets the loaner, rather obvious- just like a million dollar client will get better service than a 100k one. But if you *had* bought a car here, I would *try* to find something for you to use- say, a loaner in the body shop 'casue it's scratched or ask a used car manager nicely for a used car.

You come into my dealership with another dealer's name on the back of your car? I guess you should ask them for a loaner. After all, they got you *such* a great deal...


Man, as an impartial observer, you're not coming off the greatest.

I have an honest question: why do dealers get so pissy when I asked them to take the sticker off of my car? If they're not giving me something (free oil change/tire rotation etc) why should I be a driving billboard for them?
 
2013-02-20 08:19:20 PM  

TotesCrayCray: nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.

Oh, it's real. My current car is one that I bought used from a dealer who got it as a trade in. They're the largest dealer of that brand within 50+ miles and they own other nearby dealerships too. They not only "offer" underspray but tried to get me to buy it.

nolanomad: Go ahead and say you don't give a crap about your neighbors and their income, you're welcome to be indifferent. What did I miss?

Likewise. Salesmen try to get as much money out of us through lying, they dick us around, and treat us as a walking dollar sign instead of a human being. They start the process of farking their neighbors out of their income.


Sorry you've heard different, I've been told under spray will void a GM warranty. Perhaps different manufacturers have different policies. Sorry to hear you've only dealt with *those* kind of salesmen. We don't have any of those.
 
2013-02-20 08:21:45 PM  

Dougie AXP: nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: I have to say, you go to some dealership, get a bad experience, and suddenly we're all terrible, conniving thieving lying whargarbl.


No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience, then you come in with a bunch of herp derp about how it's all in our imagination, no car dealer in the history of the universe has ever been anything but a perfect saint, and if we don't like it we can go risk getting shot at the dealer across the road.

Also, you never did finish your earlier theoretical situation. You claim that if we buy nothing form you, the guy who bought five cars is going to get priority for the one and only loaner your dealer can afford, but you never clarified whether buying one car will give us priority over the guy who bought five.

Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on. As to the theoretical question, the 5 car guy gets the loaner, rather obvious- just like a million dollar client will get better service than a 100k one. But if you *had* bought a car here, I would *try* to find something for you to use- say, a loaner in the body shop 'casue it's scratched or ask a used car manager nicely for a used car.

You come into my dealership with another dealer's name on the back of your car? I guess you should ask them for a loaner. After all, they got you *such* a great deal...

Man, as an impartial observer, you're not coming off the greatest.

I have an honest question: why do dealers get so pissy when I asked them to take the sticker off of my car? If they're not giving me something (free oil change/tire rotation etc) why should I be a driving billboard for them?


They shouldn't. I've never seen anyone get pissy where I work if that request is made. As far as my attitude, I would guess that's just a reaction to being told how terrible we *all* are when I know it's not true.
 
2013-02-20 08:23:01 PM  

the ha ha guy: No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience,


Exactly. Here's one of my recent bad ones.

I went looking for a new car. I was interested in the BR-Z/FRS after reading up on it. No Subaru dealer in my area had one. The Scion dealer had 3 in stock according to their website. So I went there to look and drive one to see how I like it.

I get the manager of the place. I told him what I'm interested in. Oh, they only have one in stock. Their website shows what they expect to get in the future but not what they actually have. WTF? Whatever. As I'm telling him what I'm interested in, and that I'm looking at other cars in the price/performance range, I mention that I wanted a manual transmission.

He spends the next 10 minutes being very confused why I would ever want one and trying to convince me that I want an automatic instead. Not for any performance reason, but just because. No, I want what I said I wanted. He seemed deadset on getting me to buy the 1 that they had in stock. Even though I explicitly said that I'm still in the looking stage and haven't decided on anything. Even though the one they had in stock didn't have the transmission, color, or trim level that I said I was interested in.

He says that he wants to check on something and disappears for almost 10 minutes. I'm staring out the window and I see him pull up in a white Scion TC. He comes in and wants me to test drive it.

"... I said that I'm looking for a black or blue sports car. Like the FRS or a WRX or a Genesis."
"It's kinda sporty"
*facepalm*

The entire exchange from that guy was him trying to convince me to buy something, anything that day. He didn't listen to a word that I said. Fark him and his cronies.

This is also a dealer that I know for a fact does underspray.
 
2013-02-20 08:23:46 PM  

Dougie AXP: Man, I gotta say, I love working for a company that has fleet perks from the major manufacturers. I go in, tell them who I work for and it's Dealer invoice plus 0.4%. If the dealer doesn't want to play ball they get a nice call from their corporate offices after our corporate fleet manager calls them.

The only car I didn't get this on was one that wasn't included in the plan (high performance car).

Takes a shiatload of pressure of me and my salesman. He gets a guaranteed sale and some commission, I get my car for a great price. Win/Win.


Yep, supplier pricing, x plan, call it what you will. Darned convenient.
 
2013-02-20 08:31:02 PM  

nolanomad: You come into my dealership with another dealer's name on the back of your car? I guess you should ask them for a loaner. After all, they got you *such* a great deal...


Seeing how you make most of your money from overpriced services, and you seem to harp on forming relationships with your customers, you sure don't seem very willing to service anyone and everyone who comes your way. Real good way of being good to your neighbors, you have there.

nolanomad: Go ahead and say you don't give a crap about your neighbors


Heh.

Oh, and by the way, the last time I bought a car the removal of that sticker and license plate frame was the first thing that I did. The next car I buy will have a "no sticker and no frame" as part of the sales agreement. Save your money and give me one less thing to pitch into the landfill.
 
2013-02-20 08:37:18 PM  

nolanomad: Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on.



No, you said that that no salesman fits the stereotype.

nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply.

nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.



So, who am I to believe? Mr. Anonymous Internet Manager who sells cars so great that the manufacturer couldn't survive without a government bailout? Or the hundreds of dealerships within a 50 mile radius where nearly every single salesman goes into the "you're an idiot customer and you don't know what you want" mode before I even step out of my car?


nolanomad: You come into my dealership with another dealer's name on the back of your car? I guess you should ask them for a loaner. After all, they got you *such* a great deal...



When competition is so tight that I can literally see five other dealers from the parking lot, two of which sell the same brand and model of car, why should I choose a dealer solely on customer service that consists of standing in front of my car yelling "you're an idiot if you don't pull out your wallet and buy this car right now" deals through my windshield as I'm trying to leave?
 
2013-02-20 08:46:26 PM  

TotesCrayCray: Real good way of being good to your neighbors, you have there.



Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you. I'd bet that in person, you use lines similar to "I haven't made any sales all week and if I don't make a sale today my wife will have to dig bread out of a dumpster to feed our children."

/Yes, I really did hear that exact quote from a salesman once.
//it didn't help that he said this while wearing a freshly pressed suit, gold watch, and mentioned that he just ordered a similar model car to the one my friend was looking at.
 
2013-02-20 08:50:09 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on.


No, you said that that no salesman fits the stereotype.

nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply.
nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.


Well, the first starts with "imagine if you" and it should have ended with "to you". My bad to phrase that wrong. And I said "no self-respecting" I didn't say they're all like that. As mentioned, have been told a couple different times that under spray voids GM warranties, by GM people. I assumed (yep, probably bad move oops) that if it applies here it applies in general. My bad. Anyhow, seeing as I have referred to other dealerships being bad, I kind of acknowledged that the bad ones exist. And to reiterate? The bad ones are bad, so can only sell price. A good dealership can sell product, so you understand why that $300 feature (or whatever) is worth the money.
 
2013-02-20 08:50:09 PM  

the ha ha guy: Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you


Why do people keep quoting me for shiat that the other guy said? Unless you were agreeing with my sentiment, in which your phrasing of the response seems a bit awkward.

>_>
 
2013-02-20 08:52:52 PM  

the ha ha guy: TotesCrayCray: Real good way of being good to your neighbors, you have there.


Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you. I'd bet that in person, you use lines similar to "I haven't made any sales all week and if I don't make a sale today my wife will have to dig bread out of a dumpster to feed our children."

/Yes, I really did hear that exact quote from a salesman once.
//it didn't help that he said this while wearing a freshly pressed suit, gold watch, and mentioned that he just ordered a similar model car to the one my friend was looking at.


um, I don't sell cars. That's what the salesmen do. But back when I *did* sell cars, I wouldn't have touched a line like that with a ten foot pole.
 
2013-02-20 09:02:06 PM  
Fark: Clips from last week's Planet Money stories, today!
 
2013-02-20 09:03:17 PM  

TotesCrayCray: the ha ha guy: Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you

Why do people keep quoting me for shiat that the other guy said? Unless you were agreeing with my sentiment, in which your phrasing of the response seems a bit awkward.

>_>



My bad, I didn't have him highlighted and wasn't paying attention to the usernames. Sorry if I caused any offense.
 
2013-02-20 09:07:58 PM  

the ha ha guy: TotesCrayCray: the ha ha guy: Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you

Why do people keep quoting me for shiat that the other guy said? Unless you were agreeing with my sentiment, in which your phrasing of the response seems a bit awkward.

>_>


My bad, I didn't have him highlighted and wasn't paying attention to the usernames. Sorry if I caused any offense.


I suspect he's somewhere between puzzled and amused, but I could be completely wrong.

the ha ha guy: TotesCrayCray: Real good way of being good to your neighbors, you have there.


Ah, so now you're moving into making the customer feel guilty about not buying form you. I'd bet that in person, you use lines similar to "I haven't made any sales all week and if I don't make a sale today my wife will have to dig bread out of a dumpster to feed our children."

/Yes, I really did hear that exact quote from a salesman once.
//it didn't help that he said this while wearing a freshly pressed suit, gold watch, and mentioned that he just ordered a similar model car to the one my friend was looking at.


Oh and speaking of, we have the guy with the overpriced watch. Or rather watches, he apparently collects them, and at $1500 or a pop each I really don't get it. off topic, but *shrug*
 
2013-02-20 09:09:42 PM  
okay, THAT post is a mess. sorry about that.
 
2013-02-20 09:12:36 PM  

nolanomad: Anyhow, seeing as I have referred to other dealerships being bad, I kind of acknowledged that the bad ones exist. And to reiterate? The bad ones are bad, so can only sell price. A good dealership can sell product, so you understand why that $300 feature (or whatever) is worth the money.



In my experience, the good dealerships typically don't deal in cheap cars, and the cheap dealerships are so competitive that an honest dealer selling the same brand wouldn't last a week.
 
2013-02-20 09:15:14 PM  

the ha ha guy: My bad, I didn't have him highlighted and wasn't paying attention to the usernames. Sorry if I caused any offense.


No offense taken. Just a mixture of amusement and bemusement. I figured that something like that happened.
 
2013-02-20 09:34:18 PM  

liam76: RandomRandom: If and when this litigation/ regulation occurs, it would seem to be a textbook example of a constitutional commerce clause violation. That being, the state would be giving preferential treatment to local state businesses over equivalent businesses in other states

That is what my GED in law says, curious if it has ever been challenged.


A GED man?  Respect.  Bet that cost more than my law degree from Strayer.

Here's my poorly educated guess as to how this plays out.  The local dealers will fight Tesla in various states, meaning this will eventually make it to the supremes.  Hard to say how the current court would rule on this, they've been all over the map.  Roberts is a real wimp, Kennedy seems to flip a coin, and the 3 wingnuts would seem a lock to rule for the local dealers, while the centrists (no, not even one would qualify as a true liberal) would seem most likely to go with federal over states, meaning Tesla.

But this probably won't reach federal court for awhile, so by the time it reaches the supremes some of the more states-righty justices may have gone to ground.

/here's hoping
 
2013-02-20 09:58:38 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: Anyhow, seeing as I have referred to other dealerships being bad, I kind of acknowledged that the bad ones exist. And to reiterate? The bad ones are bad, so can only sell price. A good dealership can sell product, so you understand why that $300 feature (or whatever) is worth the money.


In my experience, the good dealerships typically don't deal in cheap cars, and the cheap dealerships are so competitive that an honest dealer selling the same brand wouldn't last a week.


You speak a lot of truth. Buick and GMC are nicer, wouldn't call them high end, and I can say from experience that part of our job as a sales force is explaining to a customer that yes, in fact they're being lied to by the other guy. Sad, really.
 
2013-02-20 10:19:04 PM  
As someone who just spent the last 4 frickin' days buying a new car, I'm really....glad it's over, because man it's a completely miserable process.
 
2013-02-20 10:20:42 PM  

nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on.


No, you said that that no salesman fits the stereotype.

nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply.
nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.

Well, the first starts with "imagine if you" and it should have ended with "to you". My bad to phrase that wrong. And I said "no self-respecting" I didn't say they're all like that. As mentioned, have been told a couple different times that under spray voids GM warranties, by GM people. I assumed (yep, probably bad move oops) that if it applies here it applies in general. My bad. Anyhow, seeing as I have referred to other dealerships being bad, I kind of acknowledged that the bad ones exist. And to reiterate? The bad ones are bad, so can only sell price. A good dealership can sell product, so you understand why that $300 feature (or whatever) is worth the money.


Now I know you're full of shiat, a modification cannot VOID your warranty, all that can happen is the manufacturer(not the dealer) can deny the claim if the modification is shown to have caused the failure.

That's Law.
 
2013-02-20 10:23:56 PM  

TotesCrayCray: the ha ha guy: No, it's more like we have 10+ bad experiences and one good experience,

Exactly. Here's one of my recent bad ones.

I went looking for a new car. I was interested in the BR-Z/FRS after reading up on it. No Subaru dealer in my area had one. The Scion dealer had 3 in stock according to their website. So I went there to look and drive one to see how I like it.

I get the manager of the place. I told him what I'm interested in. Oh, they only have one in stock. Their website shows what they expect to get in the future but not what they actually have. WTF? Whatever. As I'm telling him what I'm interested in, and that I'm looking at other cars in the price/performance range, I mention that I wanted a manual transmission.

He spends the next 10 minutes being very confused why I would ever want one and trying to convince me that I want an automatic instead. Not for any performance reason, but just because. No, I want what I said I wanted. He seemed deadset on getting me to buy the 1 that they had in stock. Even though I explicitly said that I'm still in the looking stage and haven't decided on anything. Even though the one they had in stock didn't have the transmission, color, or trim level that I said I was interested in.

He says that he wants to check on something and disappears for almost 10 minutes. I'm staring out the window and I see him pull up in a white Scion TC. He comes in and wants me to test drive it.

"... I said that I'm looking for a black or blue sports car. Like the FRS or a WRX or a Genesis."
"It's kinda sporty"
*facepalm*

The entire exchange from that guy was him trying to convince me to buy something, anything that day. He didn't listen to a word that I said. Fark him and his cronies.

This is also a dealer that I know for a fact does underspray.


I absolutely LOVE my WRX, and aside from the local dealers, I tend to get good service from Subaru as well.   Plus the modding/repair community is HUGE.   If you're interested and want to see a bunch of people talking about it, honestly and enthusiastically you should check out the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club.   They have local chapters that are usually selling the part you need for a lot cheaper than you can buy new and the noobie forum has a walk through with pics for whatever you could imagine doing to mod the car.

http://www.NASIOC.com
 
2013-02-20 10:39:19 PM  
OK, CSB Time.

I Purchased a new motorcycle last week and there are 3 factory-approved dealers in the area.  I knew which model I want and went into all 3 of them, checked out the cleanliness of the service bays, apparel selection and the overall demeanor of the store.  After a trip to all 3, with 3 Sales manager business cards, I fire off an email to all 3, so all 3 can see each other's email requesting an OTD Cash price for the bike, first service and a mens and ladies shirt of my choice.

Dealer 1 writes back first, asks me how I am paying and that since the MSRP is the same for all the bikes that they should all be relatively the same price but that I should consider things like service and relationship.  I think to myself, Mmmkay.  You didnt' read my first email and if you came in $200 higher than the low bid, i might buy it from you anyways since you are a bit closer to me than the other dealers.  after a few days of annoying email exchange, not surprisingly, they come in $1k higher than the low bid

Dealer 2 comes back 3 hours after the email, remembers me, remembers my visit and itemizes the entire bid, waives a few fees and throws in a $200 shop/parts/accessories gift card

Dealer 3 waits a week and is $100 lower than dealer 1, $900 higher than dealer 2.

So yeah.  things like parts and service are important parts of the process and I will certainly consider that if it is an issue of splitting hairs.  If Dealer 2's shop looked like crap and they didn't have anyone there who knew the product, I'd probably have taken my business to dealer 1 and asked them to come down a bit.  Dealer 1 was a D-bag every step of the way.  Was happy to give my business to dealer 2.
 
2013-02-21 01:54:17 AM  
Don't mind me. I'm in the market for a new car, and have never ever owned a new one from a dealership. So this thread is totally relevant to my interests and I need all of the CSBs I can read up on. Bookmarking.
 
2013-02-21 02:41:37 AM  
I logged in just to say this......

"Not telling someone something and justifying it with "You never asked." isn't lying" - Great Janitor

You pieces of garbage are all the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie#Lying_by_omission     What makes this even more funny is Wikipedia uses car dealers as the example.

Great Janitor you are truly a piece of s**t
 
2013-02-21 02:46:02 AM  

Great Janitor: Babwa Wawa: Great Janitor: That's no different than going to the doctor after breaking your arm, seeing the doctor walk into the examine room and saying "Oh, yeah, everything's okay, gotta go!" and leave the hospital.


Just wanted to make sure you read my above comment
 
2013-02-21 03:17:47 AM  

Girion47: nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: Please show me where I said no dealership is like that. Really, show me, I want to see where that was said by me. What I DID say, is that we're not all like that and got jumped on.


No, you said that that no salesman fits the stereotype.

nolanomad: Imagine if what you do for a living was reviled and mocked, despite the fact that none of the stereotypes apply.
nolanomad: Underspray? B.S. that no self-respecting dealership does/sells, because even if it were real, it would void your dealership.

Well, the first starts with "imagine if you" and it should have ended with "to you". My bad to phrase that wrong. And I said "no self-respecting" I didn't say they're all like that. As mentioned, have been told a couple different times that under spray voids GM warranties, by GM people. I assumed (yep, probably bad move oops) that if it applies here it applies in general. My bad. Anyhow, seeing as I have referred to other dealerships being bad, I kind of acknowledged that the bad ones exist. And to reiterate? The bad ones are bad, so can only sell price. A good dealership can sell product, so you understand why that $300 feature (or whatever) is worth the money.

Now I know you're full of shiat, a modification cannot VOID your warranty, all that can happen is the manufacturer(not the dealer) can deny the claim if the modification is shown to have caused the failure.

That's Law.


holy shiat, you're a lawyer?
 
2013-02-21 04:44:52 AM  

nolanomad: holy shiat, you're a lawyer?



It's called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which has been upheld in court many times.

And since you've admitted that GM instructs you to violate federal law, perhaps now you might start to see why we say the things we do about car dealers.
 
2013-02-21 04:59:35 AM  
But, Paul Krugman has assured me that forced inefficiency is good for the economy. Think of all the jobs that would be lost if you could just buy a car with no middleman.
 
2013-02-21 06:18:18 AM  

DrPainMD: But, Paul Krugman has assured me that forced inefficiency is good for the economy. Think of all the jobs that would be lost if you could just buy a car with no middleman.


If krugman were alive in the late 1800's, he'd be the head lobbyist for the buggy whip makers association.
 
2013-02-21 07:04:56 AM  
here's a car you'll never see on the road.  cause it's a piece of shiat that won't run

fordpartsdiscountoutlet.com
 
2013-02-21 09:14:29 AM  

Yellow Beard: spickus: spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.

But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?

yes, you are. You asked if dealers quote higher or lower than msrp. I answered your question. If you are silly enough to pay msrp, good on ya. I am sure the salesman and his manager will not only appreciate it, they will high five each other too.


No comment on me pointing out your lie? Yeah, I'm the asshole.
 
2013-02-21 09:37:08 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: spickus: spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.

But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?

yes, you are. You asked if dealers quote higher or lower than msrp. I answered your question. If you are silly enough to pay msrp, good on ya. I am sure the salesman and his manager will not only appreciate it, they will high five each other too.

No comment on me pointing out your lie? Yeah, I'm the asshole.


ok, I'll bite. What lie?
 
2013-02-21 11:33:47 AM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: holy shiat, you're a lawyer?


It's called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which has been upheld in court many times.

And since you've admitted that GM instructs you to violate federal law, perhaps now you might start to see why we say the things we do about car dealers.


Well, considering your response, I'm going to assume you're not a lawyer. Well, neither am I, so I sat down and looked over the details of the Act you've mentioned, and while it does say "a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service". However, I dug a little deeper, and I also found that "This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused." Sorry, their bold, not mine. Anyhow, there's a whole lot of legalese about making sure you understand the manufacturer's warranty, so I did some further reading, wandered over to GMC's site to read up on what their warranty covers and doesn't. According to these wonderful peoples, "GMC vehicles are designed and built to resist corrosion. All body and sheet metal components are warranted against rust-through corrosion for 6 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Application of additional rust-inhibiting materials is not required under the corrosion coverage and none is recommended. See your GMC dealer for terms of this limited warranty." I did add the bold there, and for good reason. None recommended? Not exactly saying void, but wait a second...

Also from GMC: "Installations or alterations to the original equipment vehicle (or chassis) as distributed by General Motors are not covered by the General Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The special body company, assembler, equipment installer, or upfitter is solely responsible for warranties on the body or equipment and any alterations (or any effect of the alterations) to any of the parts, components, systems, or assemblies installed by GM. General Motors is not responsible for the safety or quality of design features, materials, or workmanship of any alterations by such suppliers."

If you take the time to read the ACT you've invoked, you'll find that the manufacturer can in fact spell out their own exceptions and rules.

So, you're not a lawyer, and you're an idiot. Well done.

Next?
 
2013-02-21 11:45:47 AM  

nolanomad: If you take the time to read the ACT you've invoked, you'll find that the manufacturer can in fact spell out their own exceptions and rules.



Did you even bother to read what you quoted?

"This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused."

If GM can prove that an addition directly caused a problem, they can deny warranty coverage for that problem, but the remainder of the warranty remains in effect.

In other words, if I buy aftermarket wheels for my car, and the dealer can prove that the wheels caused problems with the brakes, they can legally deny warranty coverage for the brakes. If I later bring in my car for a problem with the stereo, the dealer would be violating federal law if they refused to honor the warranty due to the aftermarket wheels.
 
2013-02-21 11:52:42 AM  

nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: holy shiat, you're a lawyer?


It's called the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act, which has been upheld in court many times.

And since you've admitted that GM instructs you to violate federal law, perhaps now you might start to see why we say the things we do about car dealers.

Well, considering your response, I'm going to assume you're not a lawyer. Well, neither am I, so I sat down and looked over the details of the Act you've mentioned, and while it does say "a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service". However, I dug a little deeper, and I also found that "This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused." Sorry, their bold, not mine. Anyhow, there's a whole lot of legalese about making sure you understand the manufacturer's warranty, so I did some further reading, wandered over to GMC's site to read up on what their warranty covers and doesn't. According to these wonderful peoples, "GMC vehicles are designed and built to resist corrosion. All body and sheet metal components are warranted against rust-through corrosion for 6 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. Application of additional rust-inhibiting materials is not required under the corrosion coverage and none is recommended. See your GMC dealer for terms of this limited warranty." I did add the bold there, and for good reason. None recommended? Not exactly saying void, but wait a second...

Also from GMC: "Installations or alterations to the original equipment vehicle (or chassis) as distributed by General Motors are not covered by the General Motors New Vehicle Limited Warranty. The special body company, assembler, equipment ...


But he isn't an idiot, you completely misread that to reinforce my statement, and then proceeded to call us wrong.    So much fail...

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-21 11:54:51 AM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: If you take the time to read the ACT you've invoked, you'll find that the manufacturer can in fact spell out their own exceptions and rules.


Did you even bother to read what you quoted?

"This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused."

If GM can prove that an addition directly caused a problem, they can deny warranty coverage for that problem, but the remainder of the warranty remains in effect.

In other words, if I buy aftermarket wheels for my car, and the dealer can prove that the wheels caused problems with the brakes, they can legally deny warranty coverage for the brakes. If I later bring in my car for a problem with the stereo, the dealer would be violating federal law if they refused to honor the warranty due to the aftermarket wheels.


Yes, the remainder of the warranty remains in effect. My mistake to imply that the warranty is voided across the board- heck, the word "void" shouldn't be used. What I was trying to point out is that modifying the vehicle can leave you responsible instead of the manufacturer should there be a problem. Call it a "case by case" negation of warranty coverage. Now that's mouthful. And for the record, someone who tries to imply aftermarket wheels is the reason your stereo broke is a moron.
 
2013-02-21 12:05:10 PM  

Girion47: But he isn't an idiot, you completely misread that to reinforce my statement, and then proceeded to call us wrong. So much fail...


GMC explicitly states that "installations or alterations to the original equipment... are not covered". Please explain how I'm misreading that.
 
2013-02-21 12:07:14 PM  

nolanomad: And for the record, someone who tries to imply aftermarket wheels is the reason your stereo broke is a moron.



I know someone who was denied warranty service on his engine due to his aftermarket running boards. When he removed the running boards and went to another dealer, they told him he was red-flagged in the system, so they couldn't honor the warranty even if they wanted to.

After a few months of back-and-forth between his lawyer and GM corporate, they did finally reinstate the warranty, though as far as I know they never reimbursed the money he had to spend to get the engine fixed while he was in warranty-limbo.
 
2013-02-21 12:22:33 PM  

nolanomad: Girion47: But he isn't an idiot, you completely misread that to reinforce my statement, and then proceeded to call us wrong. So much fail...

GMC explicitly states that "installations or alterations to the original equipment... are not covered". Please explain how I'm misreading that.


Your original statement was that the warranty is voided.   Which is an incorrect statement.  The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.

GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.
 
2013-02-21 12:30:31 PM  
The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.


You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?
 
2013-02-21 12:40:20 PM  

nolanomad: The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.

You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?



How is it a contradiction? A company can say anything they want, but the law usually takes precedence over any illegal claims.

Or are you trying to imply that a car manufacturer is incapable of making illegal claims?
 
2013-02-21 12:56:49 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.

You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?


How is it a contradiction? A company can say anything they want, but the law usually takes precedence over any illegal claims.

Or are you trying to imply that a car manufacturer is incapable of making illegal claims?


No, I'm saying that if a dealer can prove an aftermarket caused a problem, they can turn down a warranty claim. GMC states it in their policy, and the act you refer to says that a warranty must declare their terms and conditions, which has been done. So, in the case of say, the underside of your truck corroding or rusting, and your local dealer can show that it's because of a poor quality aftermarket under body spray job, it's not their problem anymore. Your truck had a 6 year, 100k non-corrosion guarantee, and you went and messed with it. Take your problem to the guy that sold you the spray job, it's their problem. Here: http://www.gmc.com/owners/warranty.html I mean, I guess GM could be posting a warranty that flies in the face of federal law, but I sort of doubt it. after all, http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-fed e ral-warranty-law#stating  read #1 under "basic information required for all warranties" and you'll see if your written warranty should state specifically what it does and does not cover. Not saying you couldn't go ahead and sue someone anyhow ('tis the american way these days) just saying I doubt you'd get very far.
 
2013-02-21 01:02:07 PM  

nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.

You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?


How is it a contradiction? A company can say anything they want, but the law usually takes precedence over any illegal claims.

Or are you trying to imply that a car manufacturer is incapable of making illegal claims?

No, I'm saying that if a dealer can prove an aftermarket caused a problem, they can turn down a warranty claim. GMC states it in their policy, and the act you refer to says that a warranty must declare their terms and conditions, which has been done. So, in the case of say, the underside of your truck corroding or rusting, and your local dealer can show that it's because of a poor quality aftermarket under body spray job, it's not their problem anymore. Your truck had a 6 year, 100k non-corrosion guarantee, and you went and messed with it. Take your problem to the guy that sold you the spray job, it's their problem. Here: http://www.gmc.com/owners/warranty.html I mean, I guess GM could be posting a warranty that flies in the face of federal law, but I sort of doubt it. after all, http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-fed e ral-warranty-law#stating  read #1 under "basic information required for all warranties" and you'll see if your written warranty should state specifically what it does and does not cover. Not saying you couldn't go ahead and sue someone anyhow ('tis the american way these days) just saying I doubt you'd get very far.


You're still agreeing with us and telling us we're wrong.
 
2013-02-21 01:04:55 PM  

Girion47: nolanomad: the ha ha guy: nolanomad: The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.

You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?


How is it a contradiction? A company can say anything they want, but the law usually takes precedence over any illegal claims.

Or are you trying to imply that a car manufacturer is incapable of making illegal claims?

No, I'm saying that if a dealer can prove an aftermarket caused a problem, they can turn down a warranty claim. GMC states it in their policy, and the act you refer to says that a warranty must declare their terms and conditions, which has been done. So, in the case of say, the underside of your truck corroding or rusting, and your local dealer can show that it's because of a poor quality aftermarket under body spray job, it's not their problem anymore. Your truck had a 6 year, 100k non-corrosion guarantee, and you went and messed with it. Take your problem to the guy that sold you the spray job, it's their problem. Here: http://www.gmc.com/owners/warranty.html I mean, I guess GM could be posting a warranty that flies in the face of federal law, but I sort of doubt it. after all, http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-fed e ral-warranty-law#stating  read #1 under "basic information required for all warranties" and you'll see if your written warranty should state specifically what it does and does not cover. Not saying you couldn't go ahead and sue someone anyhow ('tis the american way these days) just saying I doubt you'd get very far.

You're still agreeing with us and telling us we're wrong.


If you are referring to the void thing, scroll up a ways and note that I stepped away from that word- it's the one that gets tossed around by the guys in service and I guess "warranty negation" is too many syllables for them. I've heard it used so many times, I used it without thinking about the broader application. What I'm trying to drive home here is that if you modify a vehicle and it causes problems, whining to manufacturer guarantees nothing.
 
2013-02-21 01:09:27 PM  

nolanomad: No, I'm saying that if a dealer can prove an aftermarket caused a problem, they can turn down a warranty claim.



You're missing the point.

If GM says that undercoating will void warranty service in case of rust, that's completely legal and acceptable, I don't think any reasonable person has an issue with that.

But if GM says that running boards will void warranty service on the engine, and continue insisting that for months, that's not legal.

Thus, GM can SAY anything they want about their warranty service, but the law takes precedence over any illegal claims.
 
2013-02-21 01:12:55 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: No, I'm saying that if a dealer can prove an aftermarket caused a problem, they can turn down a warranty claim.


You're missing the point.

If GM says that undercoating will void warranty service in case of rust, that's completely legal and acceptable, I don't think any reasonable person has an issue with that.

But if GM says that running boards will void warranty service on the engine, and continue insisting that for months, that's not legal.

Thus, GM can SAY anything they want about their warranty service, but the law takes precedence over any illegal claims.


I think that comes under "well duh", but yeah, sometimes people do stupid things. Sounds like we're coming at this from different directions and agree at least on this part of the argument.
 
2013-02-21 01:26:00 PM  

nolanomad: I think that comes under "well duh", but yeah, sometimes people do stupid things. Sounds like we're coming at this from different directions and agree at least on this part of the argument.



Right, so we agree that warranty service can be denied on parts that are broken specifically due to third-party modifications.

However, my point is that many dealers, and even the corporate office itself, will often insist that any modification will void the entire warranty, despite the federal law that says otherwise. And since all it takes is one dealer to illegally red-flag that warranty, it's neither easy nor cheap to fight the corporate office to get the warranty restored.
 
2013-02-21 01:34:33 PM  
Big Bill Hell's dealership in Baltimore would like a word with you
 
2013-02-21 02:36:25 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: I think that comes under "well duh", but yeah, sometimes people do stupid things. Sounds like we're coming at this from different directions and agree at least on this part of the argument.


Right, so we agree that warranty service can be denied on parts that are broken specifically due to third-party modifications.

However, my point is that many dealers, and even the corporate office itself, will often insist that any modification will void the entire warranty, despite the federal law that says otherwise. And since all it takes is one dealer to illegally red-flag that warranty, it's neither easy nor cheap to fight the corporate office to get the warranty restored.


Not to dodge what you're saying (because if that's happened/happening, it's seriously messed up), but I would offer up that car manufacturers aren't the only companies who occasionally screw the customer in different ways. Not saying it's right by any means, but having a searing pile of rage for just one category seems a tad off. Just saying.

natas6.0: Big Bill Hell's dealership in Baltimore would like a word with you


Oh?
 
2013-02-21 06:17:36 PM  

nolanomad: Not to dodge what you're saying (because if that's happened/happening, it's seriously messed up), but I would offer up that car manufacturers aren't the only companies who occasionally screw the customer in different ways. Not saying it's right by any means, but having a searing pile of rage for just one category seems a tad off. Just saying.


Yes, you are dodging and attempting to shame the victim. "B" also being an asshole has no effect and does not absolve "A" from being an asshole.

Consider this. A vehicle is most people's second most expensive and difficult to replace possession, after a home. That is IF someone can afford a home. You wouldn't want to be farked out of your home because of the builder playing illegal games. The same goes for your vehicle.

The vehicle may actually be more important than the home. It's how most people are able to arrive at, and therefore hold, a job and thus the basis of their livelihood.

So, it's either the second or first most expensive possession for most people's lives and that which allows for them to function in modern society.

So, yeah. Getting farked out of your vehicle because the manufacturer is an asshole is kind of a big farking deal.

You're lack of empathy and inability to see outside yourself does nothing but reinforce the stereotypes that you claim aren't valid.
 
2013-02-21 07:59:08 PM  

CtrlAltDestroy: nolanomad: Not to dodge what you're saying (because if that's happened/happening, it's seriously messed up), but I would offer up that car manufacturers aren't the only companies who occasionally screw the customer in different ways. Not saying it's right by any means, but having a searing pile of rage for just one category seems a tad off. Just saying.

Yes, you are dodging and attempting to shame the victim. "B" also being an asshole has no effect and does not absolve "A" from being an asshole.

Consider this. A vehicle is most people's second most expensive and difficult to replace possession, after a home. That is IF someone can afford a home. You wouldn't want to be farked out of your home because of the builder playing illegal games. The same goes for your vehicle.

The vehicle may actually be more important than the home. It's how most people are able to arrive at, and therefore hold, a job and thus the basis of their livelihood.

So, it's either the second or first most expensive possession for most people's lives and that which allows for them to function in modern society.

So, yeah. Getting farked out of your vehicle because the manufacturer is an asshole is kind of a big farking deal.

You're lack of empathy and inability to see outside yourself does nothing but reinforce the stereotypes that you claim aren't valid.


yes, you're right, I should be sobbing right now about someone I don't know, in a situation I have no knowledge of, and a problem I can't solve. Let's see: agreed it was wrong/messed up, and yes, agree that things like that should not happen and can really mess with a person and their lives. But you know, after a nice long thread of personal attacks directed at me, I'm going to be uncaring. Hope things work out for said person, sucks he got screwed, should really look into a lawyer, etc. just not the weepy sort I guess.
 
2013-02-21 08:08:42 PM  

nolanomad: yes, you're right, I should be sobbing right now about someone I don't know, in a situation I have no knowledge of, and a problem I can't solve. Let's see: agreed it was wrong/messed up, and yes, agree that things like that should not happen and can really mess with a person and their lives. But you know, after a nice long thread of personal attacks directed at me, I'm going to be uncaring. Hope things work out for said person, sucks he got screwed, should really look into a lawyer, etc. just not the weepy sort I guess.


Unable to understand why people might be particularly upset at losing their vehicle -> Get told why people would feel that way -> Claim knowledge of that all along while not refuting inability to understand -> Respond with lack luster sarcasm and an additional dose of "deal with it".

Nifty.

/And you wonder why people have a problem with your views
 
2013-02-21 09:02:04 PM  

the ha ha guy: nolanomad: I think that comes under "well duh", but yeah, sometimes people do stupid things. Sounds like we're coming at this from different directions and agree at least on this part of the argument.


Right, so we agree that warranty service can be denied on parts that are broken specifically due to third-party modifications.

However, my point is that many dealers, and even the corporate office itself, will often insist that any modification will void the entire warranty, despite the federal law that says otherwise. And since all it takes is one dealer to illegally red-flag that warranty, it's neither easy nor cheap to fight the corporate office to get the warranty restored.


No law can stop anyone from farking with you. Sorry, that's just the way life is. Sometimes you can call the cops in and get the farking with minimized, sometimes you're up shiat creek and have to decide whether to retain a lawyer, spend months or years and extra money and days off work on a battle that you might not even win, all over a few hundred or thousand dollars - and none of that time, stress, or hassle will be reimbursed even if you do win, even the lawyer fees will probably only be partially reimbursed. Ultimately, not many people will take the fight, depending on how much that money means to them, and even a class-action suit might be a net gain in the end.

It sucks, but that's life. The greediest get away with a lot more than the best people, and it will always be that way.
 
2013-02-21 09:08:27 PM  

nolanomad: The manufacturer can only deny your claim if an aftermarket modification lead to the failure.
GMC can say whatever they want, the Moss-Magnuson act overrides it.

You do realize these two statements contradict one another, right?


Dude, you are a freaking moron.
 
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