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(NPR)   Almost anything can be purchased online, except a new car from an Internet-only dealership. Turns out sleazeball dickwad car dealership owners are in bed with sleazeball dickwad politicians, thus ensuring you're screwed forever   (npr.org) divider line 324
    More: Obvious, internet, National Automobile Dealers Association, AutoNation, state sales tax  
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11612 clicks; posted to Main » on 20 Feb 2013 at 2:00 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-20 10:20:36 AM  

Yogimus: http://www.autoexchangeonline.com/


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Awesome, but how does this help me buy a car?
 
2013-02-20 10:20:48 AM  

jpadc: As normal with NPR stories they miss (probably intentionally) an important part of these laws. The laws also protect consumers by requiring that manufactures drop cars off at dealers and then dealer are responsible for the final check that all the lights work, the brakes work,vital functions like wipers are operational. Basically that the car is safe  to drive. Even if the manufacture checks them as they come off the lot, theses things can be damaged in shipment. If I buy a book off the internet and its not assembled properly or damaged in shipment, my use of it can not kill myself or more importantly other people not involved in the transaction. A car delivered with brakes that are faulty can kill many people. Dealers are REQUIRED by those very same laws to make sure the new car can be safely operated on public roads.


Bull.  If the manufacturer sold direct to the consumer, it would also have to do those checks; it would just be a manufacturer employee doing them at delivery time.

The car manufacturers themselves hate car dealerships.  They want to sell direct to the consumer, via the internet and via factory-owned dealerships, but they can't due to the various state laws requiring them to sell via independent dealers.
 
2013-02-20 10:21:57 AM  
The last time I bought a car (used, in 2008), I did that whole thing of "this is what it's worth, this is what I'm offering, only call me if/when you are ready to sell to me at that price, cash" and walked away. It worked. But then I had to go pick it up and suffer through the showroom sit-and-wait while they fark around and try to sneak in extras. My strategy? I started singing with the Muzak. I can't sing worth a fark. I got louder and louder, the longer they made me wait. At one point, I asked an older salesman to join me on the dance floor. They could not WAIT to get me out of their showroom, pronto.

Fark with me, I'll fark back.
 
2013-02-20 10:25:16 AM  

Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.


These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.
 
2013-02-20 10:28:35 AM  
liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right
 
2013-02-20 10:29:22 AM  

Neondistraction: king of vegas: In Vegas the car dealerships are required to be closed on Sundays and it irritates the heck out of me.

Do you buy new cars that frequently that the dealerships not being open one day out of the week is a big deal for you?


It was out of gas I had to replace it.
 
2013-02-20 10:31:49 AM  

spickus: gingerjet: I should be able to drive my ass to any state, buy a car, and drive it back.

Why can't you?


Some state laws have restrictions on this, mainly those that have stricter emmission requirements than the Federal minimum (IE, California).  Less of an issue these days (most engines are 50-state certified now), but 20 or 30 years ago, certain engines couldn't meet the California pollution standards, and had the state not banned the practice, lots of people would drive to Arizona or Nevada and buy said cars with said engines.

http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr29.htm
 
hej
2013-02-20 10:32:53 AM  

ErinPac: Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.

These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.


http://www.google.com/search?q=factory+order+car
 
2013-02-20 10:40:56 AM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right


Citationneeded.jpg. Plus, it wouldn't be hard for the OEM to have a list of certified shops.

You also seem to be assuming that the manufacturer is incapable of providing said services directly and no differently than a middle-man dealer.

Also, if you're going to converse with someone on Fark, it's polite to properly quote them. Makes it easier to know when someone is speaking in your general direction. Unless you're trying to "win" by hoping that they don't notice and subsequently don't offer a rebuttal.
 
2013-02-20 10:49:11 AM  
In 1997, I bought a brand-new Land Rover Discovery here in Dallas, and it was quite possibly the best car-buying experience ever.  I was treated like an actual human being.  The sales guy NEVER had to go "talk to the manager" about anything, and when I finally did strike a deal, they rolled out the red carpet, literally.

The car was delivered with a full tank of gas, and a large wicker picnic hamper filled with assorted English foods.  It also came with a no-charge 4 year/100,000 mile bumper-to-bumper all-inclusive zero deductible warranty, and 4 year, 90,000 mile free scheduled maintenance, including free loaners for any service stay..

Not sure now with the changes in ownership if it'd be the same now.. Tata seems to be holding the brand true to its origins.
 
2013-02-20 10:53:35 AM  
I've been in the car business for 24 years. I've been a salesman, a sales manager, used car manager, F&I, and General Manager. I have only worked at 3 stores and never saw go on what so many in this thread have seen in dealing with car sales people. How the hell those dealers stay in business is a mystery to me.

The old adage  "Make somebody happy and they may tell 3-4 people. Piss them off and they'll tell  everybody" is very true. The business model I've always used is top shelf customer service. I honestly thought the days of the car guy in a plaid coat telling you lies ended in the 70's early 80's. Apparently not if what so many have written in this thread is true.

To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.
 
2013-02-20 10:56:21 AM  

ErinPac: Girion47: I've never actually bought a car that was on the lot. The two times I've purchased a car, I told the dealer what I wanted, to find it, and have it shipped there, and I'll pay invoice. Both times they've agreed.

These weren't on their lot.  That was the whole issue.  I couldn't get another dealer to have them shipped as the first dealer had 'dibs' I guess (they'd made arrangements to hold those vehicles for trade with their own).

Apparently choosing to get the good GPS/Audio package, not want the $1K extra fancy rims, and not want the plain white color (accepting any other color option) brought me down to two vehicles on the East Coast.


Sometimes i can be cheaper to fly to another part of the country and drive back than use a local dealship if they are trying to fark with you. If it is a savings of a few thousand dollars a one way ticket and gas money can save you in the long run.
 
2013-02-20 10:56:29 AM  

Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.


So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.
 
2013-02-20 10:59:39 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.


I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)
 
2013-02-20 10:59:58 AM  

sonorangal: A similar story was aired on NPR on the way to work a while back about a woman who wanted to order either a Honda or Toyota online and have it made to order. She could do that but had to have the car delivered to a dealer specializing in the company to do the transaction to get the sales.  It made the price of the car much higher in price.

Found out that the automobile industry had got a law passed so that all new cars had to be sold by a dealer. I had never knew about the law until that story.  I wonder why it has not been challenged, but I can guess.

Another story I also heard is why America can not have an efficient commuter or long distance passenger rail systems is because the tracks in the US are privately owned and the owners are afraid it would slow down freight shipping and refuse to share the track. So until commuter trains would have to have their own rail systems no bullet trains will be coming to the US anytime soon.


You can't run bullet trains on existing track in the US. That technology requires seamless track, poured in place.

The reason we won't have bullet trains is the airline lobbyists. In TX, it would be faster and cheaper to take high speed rail between Austin, Dallas, San Antonio, and Houston, but every time someone brings it up, Southwest Airlines kills it.
 
2013-02-20 11:03:20 AM  

poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.


I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.
 
2013-02-20 11:04:05 AM  

Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.


I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

kalecoauto.com
 
2013-02-20 11:06:18 AM  

nolanomad: poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.

I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...


People only do that because dealers try to tack on so many bullshiat charges and are so slippery when it comes to getting a definitive that we don't trust you.   So cry about it all you want, dealers taught people they were shady, people don't respect dealers now.
 
2013-02-20 11:11:38 AM  

markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]


Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.
 
2013-02-20 11:13:30 AM  

nolanomad: poughdrew: nolanomad: guys? I *work* at a car dealership. Buick and GMC. Internet Manager

If going to the dealership was a lovely buying experience, no one would be biatching.  Buying a car sucks.  Sunday?  nope, blue laws.  New car on the internet?  nope, laws.  Sure, I'll rush a trip on a weekday night after I get my kid from daycare, or get a baby sitter on a Saturday so I can go waste the day getting fed bullshiat from a car salesman.  We avoid you in the showroom because we want to sit in all the seats and check the car out without your interference or sales pitch.  Oh, now we want to buy, well gee you don't have the car here, but you have this one with $3000 more in options that you'll sell you for $2500 more, what a deal.  Fees too.  Extended warranty that covers nothing.  Wheel insurance.  {under|clear}{coat|body} spray.  Mats.  Oh, and run a credit check even though I don't want to finance.

In short, you're a middle man who doesn't take kindly to being eliminated.  But you're still here, because laws, and old people.

I'll back your commentary about the undercoating and other assorted bs, that's just ways to jack up the price. But as far as "oh we don't have one quite like that, but we have..."? Just ran through our ordering software, checked on the specs for a 2013 Enclave (a popular vehicle right now) and let's see.... 10 colors, times 4 trim levels, times 4 wheel choices, 4 stereo choices, dvd/rear audio/etc... call it 1500~2,000 possible configurations. Considering we carry 15~50 of them (at a high guess) at any given time, no, we probably won't have exactly what you're looking for. As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?" Ag ...


I'll give you an example. I went to buy a used 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 that had been advertised for 19K, had about 50K miles on it, and an accident.

When we arrived they were prompt to get us in the vehicle, didn't even bother with copying our driver's licenses.  On the test drive, the dealer knew absolutely nothing about the vehicle besides what was on the window sticker and in general didn't really seem to care what we thought of this car.

We got back to the dealership and started looking over everything since we were still considering the purchase.   The car had been in an accident and there was still visible damage on the fender, bent metal and chipped paint.   Also dirty seats and a few other spots that hurt the value of the car.

When we sat down the dealer started filling out all of the paperwork without even discussing the price, he assumed we wanted to pay sticker and any attempts to bring up what price we wanted were dismissed until he had wasted 20 minutes going through all this paperwork.

The car was priced accurately for one in pristine condition and with 10k less miles and two years younger than this one.  Finally we were able to make our offer, this is where the ridiculous act started, "okay, let me check with my manager, but first I have to know you'll purchase today, like write a check and sign it today"  the counter offer came back with the original price and an offer to detail the vehicle.  So we got up to leave, he then begs us to let the manager talk to us.   Thinking this is part of the deal I agree.   So this guy walks over, ignores me and starts talking to my wife in the most patronizingly way possible  "Sweetie, we can't put you in that car for that ridiculous amount, we could sell one of these brand new for 30k."(This was a lie, I can spec a top of the line model brand new from Mazda for 24k) and then proceeds to offer to put us in a completely different car for that amount.

This happened in June of 2012
 
2013-02-20 11:15:13 AM  
State's rights.
 
2013-02-20 11:18:25 AM  

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)


You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.
 
2013-02-20 11:19:20 AM  

Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.


Probably doing oil changes and brake pads right?   That stuff is so simple I don't understand why most people don't do it themselves.

I installed one of these and it's even easier now.
madjackdiesel.com

It's a Fumoto oil valve for those of you that are curious, it replaces the nut you put in the bottom of your oil pan so you no longer have to worry about finding a socket big enough for the nut, stripping the head, having hot oil pour on you when taking it off, buying a new crush gasket every time you change the oil etc...
 
2013-02-20 11:26:04 AM  
I currently have 3 cars and 2 of them I bought online sight unseen.  Negotiated the deals via email, got a check, went to the dealer, did the deal and went home.  On one I even had a trade.  no problems, no drama, no BS.  (one was from offleaseonly.com which I highly recommend).

All my cars are used though, mainly because the Stealerships are horrible.  Many stealerships use the same training method for the sales force and won't go outside that method.  It's the payment method, back and forth, spend a day at the dealership hell method.  If you walk in with cash they don't know what to do with you.  This method causes a decrease in sales.  I'll never forget my Dad buying a new Corvette many years ago from Reedman in Langhorn PA.  The place was huge, we got driven to the Corvette lot where they are lined up by color.  My Dad picks one, they radio in the number on the window and someone radios back the sale price.  No haggling or BS.  We left with the car that day.  We had gone to other dealers that use 'the method' and walked out every time.
 
2013-02-20 11:28:14 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.


and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.
 
2013-02-20 11:30:13 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

You were the rare exception. The average profit margin for a new vehicle is 6-9% and some luxury vehicles as much as 15%. Getting a salesman to dip below MSRP is like pulling teeth and getting close to invoice even harder. As a customer and never a salesman, I view the whole process as very confrontational and unpleasant. In my perfect world the car would have a non-negotiable sticker price for everyone.


I'm terribly curious where you are getting these figures. I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best. At a guess, your information is severely outdated.
 
2013-02-20 11:33:40 AM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right




It was stripped when we took it off.
 
2013-02-20 11:33:58 AM  
I remember reading either an interview with Lee Iacocca or an excerpt from his book where he said (paraphrasing) that as far as a lucrative career choice he would rather have owned a dealership than run a car factory, because that's where the real money is. I assume he was talking about the top tier dealerships, but still...

I'm pretty sure Lee's dealership wouldn't have been operating on a 1% profit margin, as one of the above posters claimed.
 
2013-02-20 11:36:34 AM  

Yellow Beard: Lol, what do I know?


Better get your sarcasm sensor checked by the service dept.. ;)
 
2013-02-20 11:38:30 AM  

RandomRandom: How are these state laws not a violation of the commerce clause of the Constitution?

Why have the auto manufacturers never challenged them in court? ...or have they?


We're not exactly rolling in cash to do that.  During the bankruptcy we took the opening to kill off a number of sleezebag dealers where we could, but it wasn't perfect.  Challenging the dealers presents problems in that it costs money in court and even if we win we'd still likely have to:

1.  Buy them out or obey other clauses in our contracts with them regarding termination.
2.  Instantly replace their sales and service or lose sales.
3.  Deploy all kinds of local marketing that the dealer used to do.

The long term dream is to run with smaller dealerships that have cars you can test drive and some cars right there for people that absolutely must leave with a car today (you'd be amazed at the number of people who buy that way).  However the majority of the stock will be moved to facilities where the cars come in on trains, are unloaded, and wait to be purchased.  You go to the showroom and test drive, place your order, and it shows up at the dealership or your house the next day (or that weekend) on a truck.

Ideally we want to change American car buying habits away from the "I must buy this and leave with this right now" mindset over to planned replacement.  We'll focus on displaying the cars at various places (as opposed to just the local mall) in ways that display all the interiors, colors, etc you can get.  The dealership just becomes the service center and the hub for test vehicles.  You make your choice and order it.  Common feature sets will be manufactured and custom ones will take 1 to 2 weeks to be produced and shipped.  Ideally you punch what you want into a computer and a program either locates the nearest match or orders some robot to start making it within 5 minutes of the order being placed.
 
2013-02-20 11:39:45 AM  
Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.


Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?
 
2013-02-20 11:41:51 AM  

Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.


So if most of the money is in service, why fark around with selling cars?  The contract is already in place to do warranty service for that brand.  You get to ditch a large sales, finance and other staff.  The advertising budget is lower as you don't have to advertise, you just have to wait for folks that buy the brands car to show up for service.

I really see no need for the dealership model that is around today.  It was started to serve the manufacturers need to have a steady purchaser for their products.  Now it is just a middle man that both the makers and consumer hate to deal with for the most part.
 
2013-02-20 11:43:16 AM  

nolanomad: I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best.



Which one? I'll Google it up for you.
 
2013-02-20 11:43:56 AM  

spickus: Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.

Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?


The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point. Unless you are of course referring to the old practice of ADP (additional dealer profit) stickers. I don't know anybody around me that still uses them.
 
2013-02-20 11:45:10 AM  
ha-ha-guy:  Ideally we want to change American car buying habits away from the "I must buy this and leave with this right now" mindset over to planned replacement.  We'll focus on displaying the cars at various places (as opposed to just the local mall) in ways that display all the interiors, colors, etc you can get.  The dealership just becomes the service center and the hub for test vehicles.  You make your choice and order it.  Common feature sets will be manufactured and custom ones will take 1 to 2 weeks to be produced and shipped.  Ideally you punch what you want into a computer and a program either locates the nearest match or orders some robot to start making it within 5 minutes of the order being placed.

I love it. It will never happen.
 
2013-02-20 11:50:48 AM  
Test drove this baby back in 1997. Paid cold, hard cash for it. Private party. 229k miles later and still purs like a kitten. Only had to replace a clutch.

carphotos.cardomain.com
 
2013-02-20 11:52:25 AM  

wingnut396: Yellow Beard: markie_farkie: Yellow Beard: To the poster that doesn't believe dealers work on 1% margins when selling new cars, I can assure you that is true. The profit center of any dealership is the service department.

I call bullshiat on that..

EVERYBODY knows you people make a fortune selling upgrades, like floor mats, undercoating, and this stuff:

[kalecoauto.com image 400x300]

Lol, what do I know? I just do it for a living. One of the first questions that comes up when buying/selling a new car dealership is "what is the absorption rate" The AR is what percentage of the total nut for the store the service dept covers. A well run store has an AR above 80%. Although I am certain you know what you're talking about and must be correct.

So if most of the money is in service, why fark around with selling cars?  The contract is already in place to do warranty service for that brand.  You get to ditch a large sales, finance and other staff.  The advertising budget is lower as you don't have to advertise, you just have to wait for folks that buy the brands car to show up for service.

I really see no need for the dealership model that is around today.  It was started to serve the manufacturers need to have a steady purchaser for their products.  Now it is just a middle man that both the makers and consumer hate to deal with for the most part.


I need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you. At some point in time, it was decided that big ticket items- vehicles, real estate- could be negotiated. If you got screwed by a dealer/salesman/etc at a car place, go elsewhere... but just a heads up, a moment's thought:

If you could screw over a dealer, you would, wouldn't you? Yes, you would. Hey look, we're both a$$holes. I just love how people will go on about how sleazy and smarmy car guys are, but will not hesitate to screw them over given the chance- and believe me, I have seen some pieces of work on the customer side of the desk. Both sides come to the table expecting the other to lie, and so both pre-emptively lie. It's the business, sadly. One last thought: Many manufacturers have, on a few occasions, tried fixed pricing to sell cars, and you know what? People STILL try to negotiate. So, I guess even if we try to shoot straight, you still figure you can get a "better deal".
 
2013-02-20 11:52:52 AM  
Oh and fark the Service people too.   I took my last car in to get looked over and they came back with a 6K bill.  The car is only worth 3.5K.

For replacing the rear brake pads and rotors they wanted 800 dollars.   I got it done in 2 hours for 90 in parts.

My turn signals weren't working, they'd flick on and then do nothing.  Bluegrass Audi wanted 800 dollars to fix it.  I got it done in 10 mintues for 40 dollars.  There was seriously a little relay box that needed to be replaced, all you had to do was pop off a small peice of dash trim, slide it out, and another one back in, similar to a PC's harddrive.
 
2013-02-20 11:53:41 AM  

Great Janitor: Buy it pre-owned and it doesn't lose all it's value instantly.


I only buy used cars. New cars are insanely priced. My most recent purchase was a used Subaru Forester. So far, I'm loving it. :)

Got it for a decent price too. Should last me for about 150k miles or more.
 
2013-02-20 11:54:23 AM  

spickus: nolanomad: I pulled a mid-sized suv at random and there's about 3-4% of mark up at best.


Which one? I'll Google it up for you.


Yes, because if it's on the internet, it must be true. Was a random GMC Acadia, they have little to no markup, but don't let that stop you from thinking there's thousands left on the table.
 
2013-02-20 11:57:49 AM  

spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.


Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)


spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?


Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.


But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?
 
2013-02-20 12:00:28 PM  
Car dealers are dicks. The last time I went to buy a car (new) I gave them my keys so they could assess trade-in value. The salesman kept trying to push cars onto me that I didn't want, ignoring the very specific ask I had, which was last year's model (it was change-over time) with manual in silver. He even took me on a test drive and stopped to get gas! No only did we have to drive around the lot for 10 minutes trying to find the goddamn car (which wasn't manual) but then he made me stop at the gas station up the street while he filled it up! Screw you, budday. While all this was going on my wife found the car we wanted at another dealer so we told them we were leaving. They got pissy and started to try to get me to stay. I literally asked for my keys back five times, each time more forcefully. Finally the head dealer basically threw my keys at me across the desk in disgust.

Not really a very CSB, but I farking hate every one of those arsewads.
 
2013-02-20 12:10:07 PM  
nolanomad:Yes, because if it's on the internet, it must be true. Was a random GMC Acadia, they have little to no markup, but don't let that stop you from thinking there's thousands left on the table.


Don't go getting defensive just yet.

For that vehicle, it appears to be just as you said. But since I found it on the internet, it can't possibly be true.

30 seconds on Google tells the average consumer (me) that there is 6-9% AVERAGE markup on cars.  You and Google are telling me that in recent years that this margin is becoming increasingly slim. Fair enough.
 
2013-02-20 12:10:36 PM  

jpadc: liam "Most garages can do that."

Most garages can't get an oil change right


Do you work in a dealer garage? Because you are vastly exaggerating their relative competency and importance.
 
2013-02-20 12:16:53 PM  
images.thecarconnection.com

Reserve it online.
Spec it online.
Arrange for home delivery.

Never step foot in a Tesla Dealership.
 
2013-02-20 12:19:00 PM  

Yellow Beard: spickus: Yellow Beard:

and let us clear up this too.
The gross mark up on a new Mercedes Benz excluding any rebate is exactly 9%. The average gross mark up is 9-11% from invoice to msrp. The only exception I know of is Porsche which is roughly 15%. I haven't been a new car dealer for 5 years but I cannot fathom that everybody is paying msrp for cars. With some very rare exceptions, that is almost unheard of.

Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point. Unless you are of course referring to the old practice of ADP (additional dealer profit) stickers. I don't know anybody around me that still uses them.


A few dealers around here like to put something like "Market Adjust Fee" after the MSRP, jacking up the price a few thousand. I've yet to see the same fee on other big ticket items.
 
2013-02-20 12:24:04 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: [images.thecarconnection.com image 640x426]

Reserve it online.
Spec it online.
Arrange for home delivery.

Never step foot in a Tesla Dealership.




www.maldivesdivetravel.com
 
2013-02-20 12:34:20 PM  

nolanomad: As far as rearranging your schedule to find time to visit? Ask a salesman some time about the 50-60 hours they put in a week, time missed from spouse, kids, friends, etc. Working open to close several days a week, just to have a customer say "okay, is that your best price? thanks" then head across town and go to ABC Motors and say "can you beat this by a hundred bucks?"

Again, if you haven't been there, you have no idea.

That is sooooooooooo not the customers concern or problem.
 
2013-02-20 12:37:15 PM  

nolanomad: If you could screw over a dealer, you would, wouldn't you?


I have to confess I am guilty of this.  Last time I was buying a car, I added in some extra deductions to the price at the last minute.  I also kept calling my manager to approve prices changes.  Then, after we negotiated the price, options and extras, I stole the floor mats out his personal vehicle.  Happens all the time.

nolanomad: I need to speak up on this "middle man" nonsense. Show of hands, how many of you butcher your own meat, distill and bottle your own booze, build your own furniture, etc. Sure a few... but most of us expect to be able to go somewhere and purchase things that have been prepared, assembled, bottled, and deal with a "middle man"- a grocer, a shoe salesman, a waiter at a restaurant, what have you.


The middle man is going away for many industries if you have not noticed.  Authors and musicians don't need huge publishing houses to pimp their work anymore.  Ebook and MP3 have these middle men flipping the fark out.  Apple is going gangbusters selling directly to consumers in their themed and knowledgeable stores.  Southwest does not hurt itself by refusing to participate in putting their flights in online sites like Expedia and such and this is not unnoticed by other airlines.

The butcher and the grocer provide a valuable skill that I don't due to experience and/or equipment.  Exactly what skill is the dealership providing that I can't provide for myself?   While everyone talks about how they are out there, I've met very few knowledgeable and helpful sales folks that can talk intelligently about their products compared to the competition.  Mostly they can talk about the features, but often I know more than the sales guy I am with.  This fails to impress upon me on how their service is as valuable as a butcher.  Most seem to only know what inventory their manager wants them to get out the door for that week.  Again, how is this a service to me?

In your case a distiller is more like a manufacturer and the distributors would be more akin to a dealership.  Aside from age laws around booze, I see no reason why one could not purchase directly from the distiller.

And a shoe salesman.. really?  Yes finding the shoe in my size in the stockroom back is a extremely valuable skill that I can't live without.

I'll admit I may be wrong.  New car sales folks may provide a valuable service to the consumers of the USA.  I have just never personally experienced this valuable service.
 
2013-02-20 12:38:52 PM  

spickus: spickus: So if I come to your dealership to buy a new car you'll offer it to me for 1% over invoice? The first time, every time.

Yellow Beard: I am no longer a new car dealer but we did that everyday of the week.(except of course Sundays as it is illegal to sell cars in Pa on Sundays)

spickus: Do dealers ask more or less than MSRP when the customer asks "how much"?

Yellow Beard: The msrp is right on the window. All salespeople will read the window sticker to you as a starting point.

But now I'm just being an asshole because I've never been in the business, right?


yes, you are. You asked if dealers quote higher or lower than msrp. I answered your question. If you are silly enough to pay msrp, good on ya. I am sure the salesman and his manager will not only appreciate it, they will high five each other too.
 
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