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(Straits Times)   Lawyer tries out the "She said she was an 18 year old Vietnamese hooker" defense   (straitstimes.com) divider line 46
    More: Misc, Vietnamese, ST FILE PHOTO, gag orders, WONG KWAI CHOW, prostitution  
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8567 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2013 at 9:43 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-19 08:34:42 AM  
"And the biatch bit my nose off!"
 
2013-02-19 08:58:09 AM  
The minor, who was 16 at the time of the offence, cannot be identified due to a gag order.

Must...resist...joke.
 
2013-02-19 09:26:15 AM  

Sybarite: The minor, who was 16 at the time of the offence, cannot be identified due to a gag order.

Must...resist...joke.


Meh.  16.  She'll get better at it.
 
2013-02-19 09:39:29 AM  
He paid her $300 for the encounter.  Considering that Vietnam is a cheap country that sounds a little too much.  I imagine the split was probably $150 for the encounter and a further $150 for her to lie and say that she told him she was 19 if he was ever caught.
 
2013-02-19 09:48:58 AM  
4.bp.blogspot.com
What a Vietnamese hooker might look like
 
2013-02-19 09:50:05 AM  

Mugato: "And the biatch bit my nose off!"


How do you smell?

/makin' with the straight lines
 
2013-02-19 09:57:33 AM  
They spelled that wrong.  Its spelled "Convict", not "Lawyer".
 
2013-02-19 09:59:05 AM  
ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.
 
2013-02-19 09:59:59 AM  

intotheabyss81: [4.bp.blogspot.com image 640x480]
What a Vietnamese hooker might look like


We're done here.
 
2013-02-19 10:00:58 AM  
Hell, I'm only 45 and every kid between about 16/17 and 25 all look like high school students to me. I'll bet if you gave me a lineup of 16-20 year olds of either gender and asked me to pick out the ones over 18 there's absolutely no way I'd get a significant number correct.
 
2013-02-19 10:01:37 AM  
So what's legal in Singapore? 16 is legal in most states in the US. For some reason I think it would be lower over there.
 
2013-02-19 10:02:31 AM  
"16? I thought she was 36! Ah come on, guys... Tell me you wouldn't have popped her."

/is aware her actual age in the flick was 15
 
2013-02-19 10:10:25 AM  

PawisBetlog: ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.


Yes it is. People say that like they know something. Ignorance of the law or facts is an EXCELLENT defense, as long as you can show that a reasonable person could be expected to be ignorant. The law requires criminal intent for the commission of a crime, and if you can PROVE ignorance, that throws criminal intent out the window.

/Used to cover criminal trials for a newspaper.
//Considering her testimony, he's probably going to be convicted of solicitation of prosecution and nothing else.
 
2013-02-19 10:11:02 AM  
i.qkme.me
 
2013-02-19 10:16:46 AM  
Mugato: So what's legal in Singapore? 16 is legal in most states in the US. For some reason I think it would be lower over there.

I thought it was 14.
 
2013-02-19 10:16:53 AM  
I make 'em take their teeth out to prove they're over 18...

what?
 
2013-02-19 10:41:57 AM  
Spencer Gwee Hak Theng Is that his name or is he starting to puke?.
 
2013-02-19 10:43:08 AM  
Singapore has a higher age for prostitution than for consent. A lot of places in southeast Asia do. It combats child exploitation without criminalizing sex.
 
2013-02-19 10:44:59 AM  
"Hey baby, you got girlfriend in Vietnam?"

www.fandor.com
 
2013-02-19 10:46:24 AM  

The sound of one hand clapping: He paid her $300 for the encounter.  Considering that Vietnam is a cheap country that sounds a little too much.  I imagine the split was probably $150 for the encounter and a further $150 for her to lie and say that she told him she was 19 if he was ever caught.


The prostitute was from Vietnam, but they were in Singapore when the encounter happened.

I feel sorry for the guy. He thought he was getting legal ass. Even if it's creepy for a 59 year old to have sex with an 18 year old, it isn't illegal.

And Singapore is a place where they will fark you up for even minor crimes. They will literally beat you almost to death.
 
2013-02-19 10:51:46 AM  

PawisBetlog: ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.


You're confusing how ignorance of the law is not a defense.

Ignorance of her age is indeed a valid defense, in particular in that the claim is that he attempted to figure out her age.

If he asked, and she lied, then seeing as it's hard to tell a 16 year old from a 19 year old, he's off the hook for that one.
 
2013-02-19 10:53:23 AM  
The minor, who was 16 at the time of the offence, cannot be identified due to a gag order.
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-19 11:09:41 AM  

PawisBetlog: ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.


Things may be more reasonable in Asia.
 
2013-02-19 11:15:06 AM  

mbillips: PawisBetlog: ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.

Yes it is. People say that like they know something. Ignorance of the law or facts is an EXCELLENT defense, as long as you can show that a reasonable person could be expected to be ignorant. The law requires criminal intent for the commission of a crime, and if you can PROVE ignorance, that throws criminal intent out the window.

/Used to cover criminal trials for a newspaper.
//Considering her testimony, he's probably going to be convicted of solicitation of prosecution and nothing else.


Some laws impose strict liability; intent is irrelevant.  Sex with minors is one of those laws in the U. S.  Some statutes even specify that being deceived by the minor is no defense.
 
2013-02-19 11:17:05 AM  
drewogatory

Hell, I'm only 45 and every kid between about 16/17 and 25 all look like high school students to me. I'll bet if you gave me a lineup of 16-20 year olds of either gender and asked me to pick out the ones over 18 there's absolutely no way I'd get a significant number correct.


yeah, that defense won't work either.
 
2013-02-19 11:21:13 AM  
Telling a hooker she has the ass of a 12 year old altar boy is not as much fun if they *are* 12. The 18-25 year olds really appreciate it.


/so I've heard
 
2013-02-19 11:21:59 AM  

Mugato: So what's legal in Singapore? 16 is legal in most states in the US. For some reason I think it would be lower over there.


Bomb Head Mohammed: I thought it was 14.


Not sure of the details of the story, but if he's an American, the age of consent is 18 when traveling internationally regardless of what it may be in the country you're in at the time. Not sure if that's supposed to get you tried by the host country or the US courts though.
 
2013-02-19 11:26:49 AM  
She love him too much

Anh yeu em
 
2013-02-19 11:47:30 AM  

The sound of one hand clapping: He paid her $300 for the encounter.  Considering that Vietnam is a cheap country that sounds a little too much.  I imagine the split was probably $150 for the encounter and a further $150 for her to lie and say that she told him she was 19 if he was ever caught.


Have you been to Vietnam in the last four years.

HCMC is getting as expensive as San Francisco, for foreigners. Rents in District 1 are well over $1000/month for a studio.
 
2013-02-19 11:58:48 AM  
That's a rough 16.

www.straitstimes.com

Also not worth $300.


/$200 max, if she does anal
 
2013-02-19 11:59:28 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: mbillips: PawisBetlog: ignorance is not a defense, enjoy prison.

Yes it is. People say that like they know something. Ignorance of the law or facts is an EXCELLENT defense, as long as you can show that a reasonable person could be expected to be ignorant. The law requires criminal intent for the commission of a crime, and if you can PROVE ignorance, that throws criminal intent out the window.

/Used to cover criminal trials for a newspaper.
//Considering her testimony, he's probably going to be convicted of solicitation of prosecution and nothing else.

Some laws impose strict liability; intent is irrelevant.  Sex with minors is one of those laws in the U. S.  Some statutes even specify that being deceived by the minor is no defense.


Exactly.  I don't know why so many people think, "I didn't know!" is a get out of jail free card.

Some crimes require "mens rea" (state of mind), some don't.  Its the difference between involuntary manslaughter and voluntary, for example.

Several years ago there was a high ranking cop in the Oakland (CA) PD, more than 20 years in, who was caught with an underage hooker.  They gave him an easy out (goodbye job, but no jail time).  The newspaper comments were nicely divided between, "but he didn't know!" and "maybe you should just not mess around with whores".
 
2013-02-19 12:07:00 PM  
Who pays $300 for a prostitute in south-east asia?  Long time with a 19 year old should cost you like 1/10th that.  The guy should be punished just for being an idiot with his money.
 
2013-02-19 12:15:09 PM  
PawisBetlog:

ignorance is not a defense

It should be in cases where the "victim," an admitted hooker, hooker testifies in court that she told him she was 19. That sounds entirely plausible to me. But then I can't tell the difference between a naive helpless preyed-on child of 17 years and 364 days and a full-grown adult woman of 18 whole years, so what do I know?

A friend of mine, a 60 year old granny, told me about a 12 year old girl she knew years ago who looked 18 IYKWIM and already had a lot of mileage in her: she said that we should go by mental age, not physical development. So I ask wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of people never getting to have sex? Or do we continue with the current system of letting just any over-18 year old have sex regardless of how stupid s/he is?

I saw we compromise: obvious puberty plus IQ. A 13 year old who qualifies for Mensa would be legal, but a 27 year old with an IQ under 90 would have JAIL BAIT tattooed across her forehead. That would solve everything!

Personally I favor sterilizing everybody with an IQ under 100. They have lots of non-culture-bound tests now, including ones an illiterate deaf-mute could take and pass, so there should be no problem. Time to raise the bar.

The same with inherited diseases: a 1/4 chance of having a kid with cystic fibrosis is just too high. Would you rather we prevent conception or round up and gas your suffering sprogs?

If dogs and cats don't have a guaranteed right to reproduce why should you? "Master Race" nothing, we must create a species that is not so damn defective.
 
2013-02-19 12:19:27 PM  

The One True TheDavid: PawisBetlog:

ignorance is not a defense

It should be in cases where the "victim," an admitted hooker, hooker


OY. I admit I need more coffee, coffee. Good morning, Fark!
 
2013-02-19 12:25:14 PM  

DonkeyDixon: Mugato: So what's legal in Singapore? 16 is legal in most states in the US. For some reason I think it would be lower over there.

Bomb Head Mohammed: I thought it was 14.

Not sure of the details of the story, but if he's an American, the age of consent is 18 when traveling internationally regardless of what it may be in the country you're in at the time. Not sure if that's supposed to get you tried by the host country or the US courts though.


Some countries also have minimum age to be a prostitute/porn star that is higher than the 'age of consent'.
 
2013-02-19 12:39:07 PM  
My life seems a little more boring today.  These kinds of issues simply don't arise.
 
2013-02-19 12:45:29 PM  
I've known several Vietnamese women (having lived in Silicon Valley for the past five years), and I wouldn't trust myself to guess any of their ages.

The One True TheDavid: I saw we compromise: obvious puberty plus IQ. A 13 year old who qualifies for Mensa would be legal, but a 27 year old with an IQ under 90 would have JAIL BAIT tattooed across her forehead. That would solve everything!

Personally I favor sterilizing everybody with an IQ under 100. They have lots of non-culture-bound tests now, including ones an illiterate deaf-mute could take and pass, so there should be no problem. Time to raise the bar.


Even if culture-neutral, IQ is a woefully inadequate method of measuring intelligence, since it tries to represent every aspect of intelligence as a single number (measurements of mental age have the same problem).  There is still a lot we don't know about how the brain works, but one thing that IS clear is that one number can't tell the whole story.

And in any case, what you are proposing is exactly the kind of eugenics that led to forced sterilizations in the U.S. in the early 20th century, and later inspired the Nazis to murder millions of people.  Even if you had a perfect way to determine if an individual was "fit" (and a perfect definition of fitness), such a system is far too open to abuse.
 
2013-02-19 12:51:03 PM  

The One True TheDavid: PawisBetlog:

ignorance is not a defense

It should be in cases where the "victim," an admitted hooker, hooker testifies in court that she told him she was 19. That sounds entirely plausible to me. But then I can't tell the difference between a naive helpless preyed-on child of 17 years and 364 days and a full-grown adult woman of 18 whole years, so what do I know?

A friend of mine, a 60 year old granny, told me about a 12 year old girl she knew years ago who looked 18 IYKWIM and already had a lot of mileage in her: she said that we should go by mental age, not physical development. So I ask wouldn't that lead to an awful lot of people never getting to have sex? Or do we continue with the current system of letting just any over-18 year old have sex regardless of how stupid s/he is?

I saw we compromise: obvious puberty plus IQ. A 13 year old who qualifies for Mensa would be legal, but a 27 year old with an IQ under 90 would have JAIL BAIT tattooed across her forehead. That would solve everything!

Personally I favor sterilizing everybody with an IQ under 100. They have lots of non-culture-bound tests now, including ones an illiterate deaf-mute could take and pass, so there should be no problem. Time to raise the bar.

The same with inherited diseases: a 1/4 chance of having a kid with cystic fibrosis is just too high. Would you rather we prevent conception or round up and gas your suffering sprogs?

If dogs and cats don't have a guaranteed right to reproduce why should you? "Master Race" nothing, we must create a species that is not so damn defective.


And suddenly, IQ tests get extremely easy between 13 and 17 for girls...

"Wow!  So many 14 year olds with an IQ of 190!"

/Law of unintended consequences...
 
2013-02-19 01:19:41 PM  
Known in America as the Lawrance Taylor Defense.
 
2013-02-19 02:33:26 PM  
anfrind replied:

[me] Personally I favor sterilizing everybody with an IQ under 100. They have lots of non-culture-bound tests now, including ones an illiterate deaf-mute could take and pass, so there should be no problem. Time to raise the bar.

[reply] Even if culture-neutral, IQ is a woefully inadequate method of measuring intelligence, since it tries to represent every aspect of intelligence as a single number (measurements of mental age have the same problem).  There is still a lot we don't know about how the brain works, but one thing that IS clear is that one number can't tell the whole story.


Of course you have a point. But we have a few billion too many people on the planet already, few of whom are exceptionally "gifted," so we should worry about fine-tuning by tiny increments once we no longer have a massive overpopulation problem. Don't forget that every one-in-a-million genius has to contend with a few hundred thousand idiots crapping all over everything.


And in any case, what you are proposing is exactly the kind of eugenics that led to forced sterilizations in the U.S. in the early 20th century,

Yes. 


and later inspired the Nazis to murder millions of people.


No. Sorry, Mr. Godwin won't help you. You don't have to murder people who were never conceived.

And propaganda aside, the Nazis were more devoted to killing Jews than perfecting Germans: the rate of Jew-murder increased greatly once it was clear that the Soviets simply could not lose and the Western Allies would rather see a Stalinist Europe than a Nazi one. And every day they dragged the war on meant more battle casualties (of presumably fit young men) and casualties among civilians (including "Aryan" mothers and their kids): this is not a recipe for "racial improvement." All you have to do to not repeat the Nazis mistakes is to not repeat the Nazis mistakes: there is nothing easier than not starting a major war you can't win and then concentrating half your efforts on massacring civilians on your side of the line. Doing nothing would be more eugenic than that.

Learn a little history before you try to slap me with it. And try another false analogy, that one's getting tired.


Even if you had a perfect way to determine if an individual was "fit" (and a perfect definition of fitness), such a system is far too open to abuse.

True, I am assuming those in charge of the project might have something like basic morality and common sense, which might be a stretch. But again I'm suggesting preventing conception, not killing anybody of any class, religion or ethnicity. And remember, preventing conception obviates "massacring" any "pre-born."

On the one hand we might prevent a few unconceived geniuses, on the other we will prevent millions of overbreeding morons. The law of averages suggests it's worth a try.
 
2013-02-19 02:43:21 PM  
WhoGAS replied:

And suddenly, IQ tests get extremely easy between 13 and 17 for girls...

Nope. "Male/Female" is too easy to control for, especially once you disallow "transsexuality" as a criterion.

And note that I did not explicitly link capacity to consent to sex with fitness for reproduction: it would benefit society far more to have gobs of young women you could not knock up. Even young woman who ain't very bright and can't think of any reason why they should say no to you.

And hey, you already can't make teenage males pregnant: I'm also in favor of bringing back pederasty. This entails no surgery at all!
 
2013-02-19 05:42:01 PM  

The One True TheDavid: True, I am assuming those in charge of the project might have something like basic morality and common sense, which might be a stretch.


You're far too trusting.
 
2013-02-19 08:02:52 PM  
It is stupid.

If you go to a bar, meet a girl who was served alcohol due to a fake ID, take her home, and have sex with her, you go to jail if she was underaged, even if she had a fake ID and was being served alcohol (aka "she was getting served alcohol, so I figured she was 21+" is not a valid defense).

It is like you need to get a copy of a girl's birth certificate before you fark her.
 
2013-02-19 09:57:59 PM  

machoprogrammer: It is stupid.

If you go to a bar, meet a girl who was served alcohol due to a fake ID, take her home, and have sex with her, you go to jail if she was underaged, even if she had a fake ID and was being served alcohol (aka "she was getting served alcohol, so I figured she was 21+" is not a valid defense).

It is like you need to get a copy of a girl's birth certificate before you fark her.


I'm not in favor of sexing underaged people, but I've always thought that in absence of extenuating circumstances (obviously fake ID, proveably lax checking) that issue should be a solid affirmative defense. Has anyone ever gotten off based on that? I mean, I realize the state has an interest in protecting the weak and innocent, and kids certainly are, but having an independent party judge the person to be 21 (even if they are 17)[and are fraudulently representing themselves as 21] should be at least some protection from prosecution.
 
2013-02-20 01:26:46 AM  

Mugato: So what's legal in Singapore? 16 is legal in most states in the US. For some reason I think it would be lower over there.


ummm....

Singapore has a lot more strict laws than the United States. See for example, laws regarding chewing gum, cigarettes, and remember that U.S. kid that spray painted cars a few year back and got caned? Yep, that was Singapore.
 
2013-02-20 10:25:01 AM  

lostcat: The sound of one hand clapping: He paid her $300 for the encounter.  Considering that Vietnam is a cheap country that sounds a little too much.  I imagine the split was probably $150 for the encounter and a further $150 for her to lie and say that she told him she was 19 if he was ever caught.

Have you been to Vietnam in the last four years.

HCMC is getting as expensive as San Francisco, for foreigners. Rents in District 1 are well over $1000/month for a studio.


If you're foolish enough to pay that. I live in Dist 1 in HCMC and pay $400 for a serviced apartment. And I know I could be paying a lot less. People here will shamelessly try to charge foreigners obscenely high prices, because they assume we don't know any better. Often, we don't. This is still a very cheap place to live, especially for locals.
 
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