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(io9)   Star Trek: Deep Space Nine helped invent everything you know and love about television. Babylon 5 fans shake their heads, cluck their tongues in disapproval   (io9.com) divider line 210
    More: Interesting, Deep Space Network, Star Trek, Benjamin Sisko, Tactics of terrorism, political structure, Dominion  
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4853 clicks; posted to Geek » on 19 Feb 2013 at 8:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-19 01:13:03 AM
DS9 was watchable thanks to these three:

s7.postimage.org

/but mostly Quark and Rom
//not Subby
///DRTFA
////Rom is the best
 
2013-02-19 01:50:02 AM

bob_ross: DS9 was watchable thanks to these three:



/but mostly Quark and Rom
//not Subby
///DRTFA
////Rom is the best


Never understood how Quark stayed out of jail. Remember the time his schemes almost got lead characters killed? That was a regular thing.

I like some DS9 episodes but overall, Bashir's capacity to condescend and Kira's shrieking pissed me off a bit. And holo deck episodes. fark that.

/admittedly biased B5 fan.
 
2013-02-19 01:50:51 AM
The Cardassians were the best Trek antagonists. Period.
 
2013-02-19 02:29:21 AM
Blake's 7. It had the rebels/criminals as heroes, an ongoing backstory, betrayal and infighting, ethically ambiguous protagonists and didn't hesitate to kill off major characters (who stayed dead once killed) in an instant without any notice at all.
 
2013-02-19 02:59:05 AM

MadSkillz: I like some DS9 episodes but overall, Bashir's capacity to condescend and Kira's shrieking pissed me off a bit. And holo deck episodes. fark that.


I went into the navy right when DS9 first came out. between not making the black dude a commander instead of a captain, all the religious stuff, and Kira being all angry freedom fighter, I just didn't like it.

Then when I get out of the navy and got back home I tried watching it again. This time I was all "the doctor is super intelligent?? wtf?" combine that with all the religious stuff and Kira being all angry freedom fighter, and I just didn't like it. Now that I have netflix and know about the whole war they had while I wasn't able to watch the show, I've managed to get past those things. Kira is still annoying though.
 
2013-02-19 03:02:16 AM

Gordon Bennett: Blake's 7. It had the rebels/criminals as heroes, an ongoing backstory, betrayal and infighting, ethically ambiguous protagonists and didn't hesitate to kill off major characters (who stayed dead once killed) in an instant without any notice at all.


Hmmm, almost want to..... *sigh* wiki'ed it.

Fark, do I need to get into this?  Seems good.
 
2013-02-19 03:12:22 AM

log_jammin: MadSkillz: I like some DS9 episodes but overall, Bashir's capacity to condescend and Kira's shrieking pissed me off a bit. And holo deck episodes. fark that.

I went into the navy right when DS9 first came out. between not making the black dude a commander instead of a captain, all the religious stuff, and Kira being all angry freedom fighter, I just didn't like it.

Then when I get out of the navy and got back home I tried watching it again. This time I was all "the doctor is super intelligent?? wtf?" combine that with all the religious stuff and Kira being all angry freedom fighter, and I just didn't like it. Now that I have netflix and know about the whole war they had while I wasn't able to watch the show, I've managed to get past those things. Kira is still annoying though.


You have to skip through things. Even first season had a few good episodes. The one with the neverending war with nanite-ressurected convicts was good.

I liked some of the dominion war stuff but they never seemed like a terribly formidable threat. And then there was writer handwaving to make the show 'go back to normal' (oh okay, the prophets are going to blow up all the jem hadar ships in the wormhole - good to know).

But the episode where they had to save the holodeck lounge singer's bar? fark that. Reprogram the simulation. Done in like 2 minutes. Not as entertaining I guess, but those episodes were always kinda lame - an excuse to put characters in other costumes and have them act out of character.

One of the good things about DS9 is that it was after Gene Roddenberry died. You can see how now the Federation isn't always this super awesome utopia. The last few seasons of TNG reflect this a bit too. Because humans aren't perfect, the shows reflected a bit of our darker sides, and fixed the issue of how would intergalactic society work without money; sort of, anyhow.  In TNG, the Ferengi called gold a valuable metal, but in DS9, it was only to encase the valuable 'latinum', which now seemed to be a currency of intergalactic trade. Which would be necessary if you cannot barter with other things.
 
2013-02-19 03:43:10 AM

bob_ross: Gordon Bennett: Blake's 7. It had the rebels/criminals as heroes, an ongoing backstory, betrayal and infighting, ethically ambiguous protagonists and didn't hesitate to kill off major characters (who stayed dead once killed) in an instant without any notice at all.

Hmmm, almost want to..... *sigh* wiki'ed it.

Fark, do I need to get into this?  Seems good.


First, you will have to go to teh nets to get it, since there is no US DVD release.

Second, it's rumoured that Siffy will be ruining the show by remaking it.
 
2013-02-19 03:59:35 AM

bob_ross: Gordon Bennett: Blake's 7. It had the rebels/criminals as heroes, an ongoing backstory, betrayal and infighting, ethically ambiguous protagonists and didn't hesitate to kill off major characters (who stayed dead once killed) in an instant without any notice at all.

Hmmm, almost want to..... *sigh* wiki'ed it.

Fark, do I need to get into this?  Seems good.


That depends on your tastes. It's a good story and worth the time to watch, definitely. However, it was made in the late 1970s/early 1980s on a BBC Light Entertainment budget, and it shows. Wobbly sets, dodgy effects, flat lighting, atrocious costumes and haircuts. You definitely need to be the sort who lieks to suspend disbelief and use a bit of imagination to fill in the story.

If you are prepared for that, it will reward you. It's a bit of a slow burn as the story and characters aren't properly established until after the first handful of episodes but once they are it becomes quite compelling.
 
2013-02-19 06:33:37 AM
You dont fark with Sisco
 
2013-02-19 07:05:52 AM

MadSkillz: One of the good things about DS9 is that it was after Gene Roddenberry died. You can see how now the Federation isn't always this super awesome utopia. The last few seasons of TNG reflect this a bit too. Because humans aren't perfect, the shows reflected a bit of our darker sides, and fixed the issue of how would intergalactic society work without money; sort of, anyhow. In TNG, the Ferengi called gold a valuable metal, but in DS9, it was only to encase the valuable 'latinum', which now seemed to be a currency of intergalactic trade. Which would be necessary if you cannot barter with other things.


Gene Roddenberry began to believe his own bull, somewhere between the late '70's and mid 80's.

The whole "no money in the future" thing was never mentioned, ONCE in all of Trek lore until a couple of brief mentions in Star Trek IV. . .never mind that a plot point of Star Trek III was that McCoy was trying to pay somebody to fly him to the Genesis Planet, and in the actual original series Spock once mentioned he knew how many "credits" Starfleet had spent on his training, one of Harry Mudd's offenses was buying a starship with counterfiet currency, and those same "credits" were used for bartering the purchase price of a tribble.  In other words, the whole "no money in the future" thing was a mid 80's ass-pull that Trek lore tries to treat like it was always there.

While it was clear that Roddenberry wanted the future of Trek to not be some dystopia, this hippie-trippie happy future where the Federation has no spies or intelligence service, no money, no fighting or internal conflict, or anything wrong and humans are basically perfect people. . .was something he cooked up long after the TV series ended and people wanted an "answer" as to why Trek was so popular.  The "standard" answer was something about a positive depiction of the future and a hopeful vision of the future.

Baloney.  The real reason Star Trek was such a success was it was the first TV sci-fi show that was reasonably intelligently written (some stinkers aside, it did touch on a lot of pretty advanced-for-the-time sci-fi concepts, especially for network TV), in color, and generally entertaining.  Since the standard line was about a hopeful future, he ran with it and made the utopian Federation in later years.

Reading Roddenberry's original notes, he originally wanted a sci-fi anthology, but anthologies were too expensive since you had to start all over each episode.  His solution?  Have a small recurring cast and sets by putting the show on a starship, and have it go to different planets having anthology-type stories on each one.  Hence why so many original-series episodes were alternate Earths.  That's why the continuity about the future history and Starfleet and the Federation was so weak at first, the ship and such was originally meant to be just a backdrop for anthology-style stories, but it became increasingly obvious throughout the show that they had to define things like how the engines worked, the agency/service they worked for, and so on.
 
2013-02-19 07:11:20 AM
I just re watched the series recently.  There are a few WTF moments with Quark, (really he should have been put in prison), but there are a lot of great story lines that start from the beginning. The other thing it had was great character growth and it was bittersweet endings.

And by the way- B5 pilot  premiere a month after DS9. And the series didn't get underway until a year later... So no DS9 was not a ripoff. Just two different takes on the same idea.  Sometimes it happens simoustaniously.
 
2013-02-19 07:23:52 AM

costermonger: The Cardassians were the best Trek antagonists. Period.




The Cardassians were created to be like the federation, but more sinister in motives. They did a lot of ground work for DS9 in seasons 5 and 6 of TNG.
 
2013-02-19 07:26:56 AM

Darth_Lukecash: I just re watched the series recently.  There are a few WTF moments with Quark, (really he should have been put in prison), but there are a lot of great story lines that start from the beginning. The other thing it had was great character growth and it was bittersweet endings.

And by the way- B5 pilot  premiere a month after DS9. And the series didn't get underway until a year later... So no DS9 was not a ripoff. Just two different takes on the same idea.  Sometimes it happens simoustaniously.


Except... Paramount grilled JMS on B5 when they were thinking of picking up the series or something like that, and then many of the same ideas popped up in DS9.

Same thing happened with Roddenberry, when CBS picked his brain under the guise of wanting to buy Star Trek, then used his production methods and ideas to make Lost in Space.
 
2013-02-19 07:36:25 AM
DS9 remains my favorite Trek, the best writing, acting and production values of all the series by far.  To give the show credit for creating the multi-season narrative arcs in television is just silly.  DS9 itselt didn't really start doing this until the Dominion War, prior to this is was episodic arcs with maybe a season long over that.  Hill Street Blues opened the door for this kind of writing in 80's, the X-Files made it popular and yes, Babylon 5 did it better from a writing perspective.
 
2013-02-19 07:54:11 AM

bob_ross: DS9 was watchable thanks to  despite these three:


FTFY
 
2013-02-19 08:04:42 AM

FirstNationalBastard: Darth_Lukecash: I just re watched the series recently.  There are a few WTF moments with Quark, (really he should have been put in prison), but there are a lot of great story lines that start from the beginning. The other thing it had was great character growth and it was bittersweet endings.

And by the way- B5 pilot  premiere a month after DS9. And the series didn't get underway until a year later... So no DS9 was not a ripoff. Just two different takes on the same idea.  Sometimes it happens simoustaniously.

Except... Paramount grilled JMS on B5 when they were thinking of picking up the series or something like that, and then many of the same ideas popped up in DS9.

Same thing happened with Roddenberry, when CBS picked his brain under the guise of wanting to buy Star Trek, then used his production methods and ideas to make Lost in Space.




Except Hollywood doesn't quite work that way. If a studio wanted to a science fiction show, they will listen to a few pitches and pick what they like. If anything, Warner's were trying follow Paramounts success with Star Trek syndication ( which was revolutionary) Paramount already had Star Trek franchise. Aft

Considering elements of DS9 was introduced in TNG two year before that-with an eye for a new series. Originally, they were going to make it more like Firefly, and have on a Western style planet, before Realizing that it would be cheaper to make it on a station.

I'm more inclined to think they had similar concepts (space Station) but did things differently.

Plus it doesn't help B5 had a year between its pilot and series.
 
2013-02-19 08:15:22 AM

Ennuipoet: DS9 remains my favorite Trek, the best writing, acting and production values of all the series by far.  To give the show credit for creating the multi-season narrative arcs in television is just silly.  DS9 itselt didn't really start doing this until the Dominion War, prior to this is was episodic arcs with maybe a season long over that.  Hill Street Blues opened the door for this kind of writing in 80's, the X-Files made it popular and yes, Babylon 5 did it better from a writing perspective.




Payton Place had all of those beat by a decade. He'll Dallas was on before Hill Street Blues.

Watching the series again, they had a lot of seeds planted in the first few years to germinate. Disco was given a mission from the beginning...
 
2013-02-19 08:20:02 AM
DS9 and B5 came out around the same time. There was a shift in the writing styles, in sort of the same way that everyone hopped on board the Lost/BSG/Heroes "throw a lot of stuff up and see what sticks" approach to plotting that became all the vogue later on. Both were written in response to trends that the writers were immersed in, and if anything, they were both responses to shows that were currently on the air. Writers for DS9 were operating with TNG winding down, and B5 was written in response to what JMS wasn't seeing on the air as well.

DS9 is my favorite Star Trek series. In part, because of the stability of the crew, a look at the Federation through the lens of other cultures' interactions. Then again, I also really like Casablanca, so maybe there is some spillover there as well. B5 I loved, for some of the same reasons, and it was a new universe to sample, and it was rich and full of cultures to fiddle with. It's not a matter of liking one or the other, but liking what was coming out at the time, and both have their merits.

What is sad is that folks took writing from formational arcs to the splatter plotting that typified a lot of shows later on, and sadly, a lot of folks rewarded this sort of weak writing by tuning in to shows that basically got off on "fooling" the audience with tissue thin plots that relied on retcon, even if they didn't admit that was exactly what they were doing. Yes, I'm looking at BSG. Yes, I'm looking at Heroes. No, I'm not looking at Lost, because I never invested any time in it after watching half of the first episode and realized that I didn't care about any of the characters.
 
2013-02-19 08:20:46 AM

Darth_Lukecash: He'll Dallas was on before Hill Street Blues


Dallas was a nighttime soap, that doesn't count.

And can we just get a representative for DS9 and one for B5, put them in Thunderdome and whatever the outcome just drop the whole thing? Jebus.
 
2013-02-19 08:27:43 AM

MadSkillz: I like some DS9 episodes but overall, Bashir's capacity to condescend and Kira's shrieking pissed me off a bit. And holo deck episodes. fark that.


DS9 had very few holosuite episodes. I can't really think of any other than the baseball episode.  And they NEVER did the 'omg holodeck safety got turned off!" thing.
 
2013-02-19 08:31:50 AM

DamnYankees: And they NEVER did the 'omg holodeck safety got turned off!" thing.


Actually, they did in "Our Man Bashir", the James Bond parody.  That was the only big "horrible holodeck malfunction puts everybodies life at risk" story, and apparently the writers were reluctant to use it since it was done to death on TNG.
 
2013-02-19 08:40:31 AM

DamnYankees: DS9 had very few holosuite episodes. I can't really think of any other than the baseball episode. And they NEVER did the 'omg holodeck safety got turned off!" thing.


They hung out in that night club with the '50s crooner guy a lot. And Bashir and O'Brien played grabass as WWI pilots but we never saw it. They probably didn't even have a WWI program, they just liked wearing the leather outfits with each other. But yeah, between the 3 series it definitely had the fewest holodeck/suite episodes.

Between TNG and Voyager I don't know which was worse with the holodeck bullshiat. Probably TNG but V'ger shouldn't have had any at all. They were constantly low on gas and stuck in the Delta Quadrant but somehow there was enough power to dick around on the  holodeck?
 
2013-02-19 08:43:41 AM

log_jammin: I went into the navy right when DS9 first came out. between not making the black dude a commander instead of a captain,


The reason for that is because he was the CO of a space station.  Space Stations in Trek typically have Commanders or Commodores, but not Captains.  They simply do not warrant someone of that pay grade being in charge unless the station was particularly important then you'd find a Commodore.  You saw some of this sometimes with other ranks, like when a Captain would get treated like an Admiral in certain cases if both were on the station at the same time.  Weird politics, but to placate the fans, he got the promotion later.

Long story short (too late!): It was supposed to be that way.
 
2013-02-19 08:44:57 AM
i777.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-19 08:45:35 AM
We also hear the Cardassian side, about how they thought they were doing the right thing occupying Bajor, and how Gul Dukat, the leader of the occupation, wanted to win the Bajorans' love and respect, but they kept pushing him with their unethical terror tactics


It's like the author watched a series with an entirely different version of the Cardassians from the one I watched.
 
2013-02-19 08:47:20 AM
The Cardassians, especially Garak, were simply awesome and make up for all of the Vegas lounge and whiny Kira in the world.

The scene where they've activated the slave-rebellion-defense system accidentally and the replicator makes a Big Ball of Laser Death, but Dukat walks up to it and gets a refreshing beverage, may be one of my favorite on TV, ever.
 
2013-02-19 08:47:33 AM

Mugato: They were constantly low on gas and stuck in the Delta Quadrant but somehow there was enough power to dick around on the holodeck?


In an early Voyager episode they established the (weak) rationalization that the holodecks on Voyager had separate power generation systems that could easily supply plenty of power to the holodecks. . .but the power was completely and totally incompatible with the rest of the ship and just trying to hook up the holodeck reactors to the main power grid did severe damage to the ship.

Yeah, lame-ass rationalization, but at least they acknowledged the whole issue of not having enough power to run the replicators. . .but everybody can use the holodeck lots.
 
2013-02-19 08:47:58 AM

Sybarite: It's like the author watched a series with an entirely different version of the Cardassians from the one I watched.


Yeah, I could never tell if Dukat said that to bullshiat others or if he were really that delusional. Maybe he really felt that way nondelusionally.  My god that was some fine acting.
 
2013-02-19 08:49:27 AM

Silverstaff: Mugato: They were constantly low on gas and stuck in the Delta Quadrant but somehow there was enough power to dick around on the holodeck?

In an early Voyager episode they established the (weak) rationalization that the holodecks on Voyager had separate power generation systems that could easily supply plenty of power to the holodecks. . .but the power was completely and totally incompatible with the rest of the ship and just trying to hook up the holodeck reactors to the main power grid did severe damage to the ship.

Yeah, lame-ass rationalization, but at least they acknowledged the whole issue of not having enough power to run the replicators. . .but everybody can use the holodeck lots.


Voyager was worse than Enterprise. Threshold was worse than These Are the Voyages, and we know how much the series finale of Enterprise sucked.

i777.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-19 08:49:28 AM
Hey, look what I found in the attic:

i560.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-19 08:49:54 AM
Actually ST:Voyager brought the things I love about television.
www.thingsnerdslike.com
 
2013-02-19 08:57:26 AM

Darth_Lukecash: And by the way- B5 pilot  premiere a month after DS9. And the series didn't get underway until a year later... So no DS9 was not a ripoff. Just two different takes on the same idea.  Sometimes it happens simoustaniously.


It wasn't about when they started.  It was about how they finished.  DS9 was planned to be the same episodic stuff as TNG, maybe with some recurring themes here and there.  B5 was, from the very very beginning, planned to be a long story arc.  At some point during 2nd or 3rd season of B5, it seemed like the folks at DS9 thought "Wow, this is awesome" and suddenly they started going into long story arcs.

Also, MJZ pitched the idea of B5 to Paramount months before, and then suddenly they announced DS9 as soon as B5 finally got its start.  So, there's also the possibility that DS9 was created in response to B5, possibly even using some of the basic material MJZ was pitching.  DS9 may have planned to do the story arc all along, but started out slow.

Either way, DS9 still owes a lot to B5.  Whether it was material/ideas before the launch or afterwards, whether it was outright thief of material or just borrowing, ideas were shared and really, MJZ pulled together the "better vision".  Shoestring budget and a constant uncertainty of the life of the series, but he still pulled it off.

/if Farscape actually had their last season, we would probably be talking more about their legacy now...
//PK Wars was mostly a teaser of what we could have had
 
2013-02-19 08:58:04 AM

The English Major: Voyager was worse than Enterprise. Threshold was worse than These Are the Voyages, and we know how much the series finale of Enterprise sucked.

[i777.photobucket.com image 400x400]


Repeating an untruth does not make it true.
 
2013-02-19 08:59:46 AM
B-5 was a horribly acted, crappy looking, boring show.

There, I said it.
 
2013-02-19 08:59:56 AM
Jeri Ryan, without her, there would be no president Obama.
 
2013-02-19 09:01:35 AM

Silverstaff: Actually, they did in "Our Man Bashir", the James Bond parody.  That was the only big "horrible holodeck malfunction puts everybodies life at risk" story, and apparently the writers were reluctant to use it since it was done to death on TNG.


It helps that the DS9 episode is more centered on how Bashir (and Garak) will get out of their Bond program without killing any of the holo-character cast than about trying to get out safely themselves.  Like many other DS9 episodes, putting a novel twist on an old concept keeps things interesting (contrast "Hard Time" and TNG's "the Inner Light" as another example).
 
2013-02-19 09:01:57 AM

YixilTesiphon: The Cardassians, especially Garak, were simply awesome and make up for all of the Vegas lounge and whiny Kira in the world.

The scene where they've activated the slave-rebellion-defense system accidentally and the replicator makes a Big Ball of Laser Death, but Dukat walks up to it and gets a refreshing beverage, may be one of my favorite on TV, ever.


I love that episode too. And the fact that it back fires in Dukat's face was just a funny twist.
 
2013-02-19 09:03:40 AM
What was really cool about B5?  They had a full story developed when the show was started, and the vision was realized.  This is the exact opposite of Lost, which I really enjoyed, but didn't really know what they wanted to do.  What was NOT cool about B5?  The acting was ****ing awful.  If you go back and watch the show you can see that the dialogue and the delivery of said dialogue was extremely weak.  The SFX of B5 were groundbreaking for their time, so they have that going for them a well...
 
2013-02-19 09:05:16 AM

lemurs: Silverstaff: Actually, they did in "Our Man Bashir", the James Bond parody.  That was the only big "horrible holodeck malfunction puts everybodies life at risk" story, and apparently the writers were reluctant to use it since it was done to death on TNG.

It helps that the DS9 episode is more centered on how Bashir (and Garak) will get out of their Bond program without killing any of the holo-character cast than about trying to get out safely themselves.  Like many other DS9 episodes, putting a novel twist on an old concept keeps things interesting (contrast "Hard Time" and TNG's "the Inner Light" as another example).


The only thing I loved about the holodeck malfunctions in TNG was it gave us a great villain for two episodes. I love how Moriarty was written to be the counter Data.
 
2013-02-19 09:05:28 AM

bob_ross: DS9 was watchable thanks to these three Morn:

[s7.postimage.org image 450x345]

/but mostly Quark and Rom
//not Subby
///DRTFA
////Rom is the best

trekcore.com


/best character ever
 
2013-02-19 09:07:08 AM

AntonChigger: bob_ross: DS9 was watchable thanks to these three Morn:

[s7.postimage.org image 450x345]

/but mostly Quark and Rom
//not Subby
///DRTFA
////Rom is the best

[trekcore.com image 602x452]

/best character ever


I was sad when they did the episode where Morn was thought to have died.
 
2013-02-19 09:08:58 AM
I don't think a day goes by without me finding a use for my self-sealing stem bolts.
 
2013-02-19 09:12:19 AM

hubiestubert: What is sad is that folks took writing from formational arcs to the splatter plotting that typified a lot of shows later on, and sadly, a lot of folks rewarded this sort of weak writing by tuning in to shows that basically got off on "fooling" the audience with tissue thin plots that relied on retcon, even if they didn't admit that was exactly what they were doing. Yes, I'm looking at BSG. Yes, I'm looking at Heroes. No, I'm not looking at Lost, because I never invested any time in it after watching half of the first episode and realized that I didn't care about any of the characters.


Seriously, THIS.  When you learn that the BSG writers didn't know who the Final Five were until the episode they were announced, you really begin to understand exactly how writing is done nowadays.  It doesn't matter if it's Heroes or Dexter or Lost or True Blood or whatever.  There is no long term plan.  It's all about writing season by season, or worse, episode by episode.  It's the concept of painting yourself into a corner and daring the other writers to pull you out again.  That's how you end up with these disjointed plotlines and loose ends that never get tied together.  These series end up being failures with their endings because they never had a good plan.  Lost, BSG, Heroes.  All of that build up wasted.

The earliest version of this I can recall writing going off the rails was both season finales of Space: Above and Beyond and Seaquest.  S:AaB never recovered (cancelled right then and there), and Seaquest cornered themselves so badly that the 2nd season was a disaster.  (They go to an alien world and then next season, they wake up and it's 10 years in the future.  Seriously.)

The sci-fi series that come to mind that really had their head together about the beginning-to-end concept were Babylon 5, Farscape, and Firefly.  There was an end goal, but they were all punished in trying to write that way.  MJZ was the only one who managed to "tell his story", but only just barely.  (When he tried to tell another one with Crusade, TNT skullf**ked him so badly he swore off cable TV forever.)
 
2013-02-19 09:13:53 AM

Silverstaff: DamnYankees: And they NEVER did the 'omg holodeck safety got turned off!" thing.

Actually, they did in "Our Man Bashir", the James Bond parody.  That was the only big "horrible holodeck malfunction puts everybodies life at risk" story, and apparently the writers were reluctant to use it since it was done to death on TNG.


Personally, I always wondered why the holodeck even HAD an option to have the safety off.
 
2013-02-19 09:14:11 AM

Darth_Lukecash:
Considering elements of DS9 was introduced in TNG two year before that-with an eye for a new series. Originally, they were going to make it more like Firefly, and have on a Western style planet, before Realizing that it would be cheaper to make it on a station.

I'm more inclined to think they had similar concepts (space Station) but did things differently.

Plus it doesn't help B5 had a year between its pilot and series.


As usual, a DS9 fan doesn't read up before going on the usual rant.

This have been done to death and it would be nice if this bickering stopped.


Quick version:

The script/bible/timeline for B5 that JMS had prepared to pitch the show was given to WB... they turned it down, and a short time later DS9 was pitched.

JMS was going to sue but knew that against WB juggernaut of lawyers there was too much to lose and since B5 did end up getting picked up, he concentrated on getting the show done instead.


bob_ross: Gordon Bennett: Blake's 7. It had the rebels/criminals as heroes, an ongoing backstory, betrayal and infighting, ethically ambiguous protagonists and didn't hesitate to kill off major characters (who stayed dead once killed) in an instant without any notice at all.

Hmmm, almost want to..... *sigh* wiki'ed it.

Fark, do I need to get into this?  Seems good.


It's British, so low budget, so very low budget....it's in the 70s so costumes and such are also bad.

It's also a slow paced show.  Some of the actors are tedious to watch, but eventually they fit the character.

The usual favourite is Avon that in time it's easy to see why, the show pretty much becomes his.

The stories are actually not half bad, but borders on the original Star Trek mixed with Space 1999.

The arcs stories actually do make this series watchable as while the slow pace does get ...well slow... it actually ends up giving it an air of realism, it's about story telling and progression and not about needing to be all edgy.

There's a lot that they could have improved had they the experience of today, so if they are doing a remake, if they do it right, it could be awesome.  If they miss the point of the series and make it "edgy" and about the effects only, they'll miss the point.

The worse thing they could do is miss the casting, and the actor that played Avon (Paul Darrow) left some pretty large shoes to fill.
 
2013-02-19 09:16:00 AM
As a big fan of both DS9 and B5, I've always thought JMS was a self-important blowhard. The shows have some surface similarities like centering on space stations (like, say, how every sci-fi show centers on a space ship), but beyond that the shows were so wildly different that his claims of plagiarism are laughable. At best.
 
2013-02-19 09:21:40 AM

Mugato: Between TNG and Voyager I don't know which was worse with the holodeck bullshiat. Probably TNG but V'ger shouldn't have had any at all. They were constantly low on gas and stuck in the Delta Quadrant but somehow there was enough power to dick around on the  holodeck?


No doubt Voyager.

TNG had maybe 1 episode a season where people are stuck in the Holodeck and they forgot to develop a master shut off switch after the last time someone got stuck in the Holodeck and there was no way to end the program, but Voyager had Holodeck episodes every other month. And then Voyager just got out of control with the Holodeck, that any space could be turned into a Holodeck with a projector, that all Holodeck characters were sentient beings, etc.
 
2013-02-19 09:23:25 AM
Did they really quote Ron Moore saying that Kira was a man.

Kira's story with his relationship with Bajorans had to keep evolving and so did Sisko's and they had a long-term mission.

If that's actually Ron's words and not some slip up in the editing department then now I really know why the later Star Trek TV shows died out.
 
2013-02-19 09:24:27 AM

FoxKelfonne: Silverstaff: DamnYankees: And they NEVER did the 'omg holodeck safety got turned off!" thing.

Actually, they did in "Our Man Bashir", the James Bond parody.  That was the only big "horrible holodeck malfunction puts everybodies life at risk" story, and apparently the writers were reluctant to use it since it was done to death on TNG.

Personally, I always wondered why the holodeck even HAD an option to have the safety off.


There are certain reasons for having a safety switch. For example, Klingons needs to have the safety off for them to train. They also need it for right of passage ceremonies. Shock sticks are easier to get in a holodeck then in real Star Trek life.
 
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