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(The New York Times)   And to the surprise of nobody, China's military is outed as a major hacker of the U.S   (nytimes.com) divider line 83
    More: Obvious, New York Times Company, advance copy, importer, Forensic identification  
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4428 clicks; posted to Main » on 19 Feb 2013 at 7:09 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



83 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-02-19 06:44:35 AM
3.bp.blogspot.com

China engages in constant cyberwarfare against the US.
 
2013-02-19 07:12:43 AM
i314.photobucket.com

/Wanted for questioning.
 
2013-02-19 07:12:45 AM
Me are chinese. Me make joke. Me put pee-pee in your code.
 
2013-02-19 07:13:16 AM
Captain, there appears to be pee pee in my Coke!
 
2013-02-19 07:13:49 AM
i46.tinypic.com
 
2013-02-19 07:14:04 AM
Glad Mandiant is lighting them up.  More power to them.
 
2013-02-19 07:14:45 AM
NO!
It was IRAN, IRAN, IRAN!
IRAN, I tell you!
 
2013-02-19 07:16:03 AM
FTA: Under a directive signed by President Obama last week, the government plans to share with American Internet providers information it has gathered about the unique digital signatures of the largest of the groups, including Comment Crew and others emanating from near where Unit 61398 is based.

Well, that's something, anyways.

But the government warnings will not explicitly link those groups, or the giant computer servers they use, to the Chinese army.

So they're gonna be keeping that a secret, are they, NYT?

/Yeah yeah, "not naming something outright" != "trying to keep it secret"
//Anyone remember when Richard Clarke was begging Bush to do more on this back in the day?
///Good times, good times.
 
2013-02-19 07:16:33 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: NO!
It was IRAN, IRAN, IRAN!
IRAN, I tell you!


Shaddup Mcain
 
2013-02-19 07:16:35 AM
Tom Clancy called it....
 
2013-02-19 07:17:31 AM
what? its not like that's hard. .mil addresses still can't do more than basic 36 char authentication and the Pentagon wouldn't know a trusted root certificate if one flew a plane into its headquarters.
 
2013-02-19 07:18:35 AM
/sbin/iptables -N BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -I INPUT -j BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 1.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 14.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 27.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 36.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 39.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 42.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 49.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 58.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 59.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 60.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 61.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 101.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 103.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 106.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 110.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 111.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 112.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 113.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 114.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 115.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 116.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 117.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 118.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 119.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 120.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 121.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 122.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 123.0.0.0/8 -j DROP


/problem solved.
 
2013-02-19 07:19:20 AM
Wake me up when someone is running around yelling causus belli because of this, till then its a non story
 
2013-02-19 07:19:57 AM
I'm generally not paranoid about China, but I have been noticing a lot of people running interference for them on stories like this on forums and comments sections. Impossible to tell if it is coordinated or means anything, but it's happening.

NPR had a report this morning where their guy in China went to the building. Said it was just a drab building but did have military signs, warnings against photography and a beat cop patrolling.
 
2013-02-19 07:19:58 AM
I opened up SSH service on my computer, and a month later checked my security logs. According to them, China is the #1 offender for trying to break into my SSH, with 31 percent of the offending IP addresses originating from there (US is 21 percent, 5 percent each from India and South Korea). In a month I found about 14,525 attempts (single username/password or SSH key attempt). Six IP addresses were the biggest offenders (64 percent of the attacks), and five of those were Chinese.

Good luck trying to guess the single username with SSH access, and the ridiculously long password guys. Also, once I made use of the advanced filtering function on my router and started blocking Chinese address space and instituted the denyhosts script, my logs got a lot quieter.

Fark you, China.
 
2013-02-19 07:21:07 AM
I guess they decided that killing our pets with melamine wasn't going to defeat us quickly enough.
 
2013-02-19 07:22:30 AM
But the cheap networking gear we purchase from Chinese factories is totally legit and free of any root kits.
 
2013-02-19 07:22:45 AM
I'm just guessing, but what are the odds that we are doing the same thing to China that they are doing to us?  Anybody remember who invented the internet.  Anybody want to hazard a guess how much data mining is going on by DHS, DOD, NSA, CIA, etc.?  I live near Quantico, I've had a drone fly over my house pretty much every day in the past year or two - I think that that are mostly training flights for gamers turned marines or DEA agents.  Stafford County, one of the riches in the nation, can't afford to pay its teachers a livable wage, but can fly regularly all summer planes and 'copters scouting for week patches.  We have really nasty problems here at home preserving our basic right against self-incrimination.
 
2013-02-19 07:31:28 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: /sbin/iptables -N BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -I INPUT -j BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 1.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 14.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 27.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 36.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 39.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 42.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 49.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 58.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 59.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 60.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 61.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 101.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 103.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 106.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 110.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 111.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 112.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 113.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 114.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 115.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 116.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 117.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 118.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 119.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 120.0.0.0/8 ...


the fark is all that nonsense.

looks linuxy/illegal to me.
 
2013-02-19 07:31:36 AM
'

Prank Call of Cthulhu: I opened up SSH service on my computer, and a month later checked my security logs. According to them, China is the #1 offender for trying to break into my SSH, with 31 percent of the offending IP addresses originating from there (US is 21 percent, 5 percent each from India and South Korea). In a month I found about 14,525 attempts (single username/password or SSH key attempt). Six IP addresses were the biggest offenders (64 percent of the attacks), and five of those were Chinese.

Good luck trying to guess the single username with SSH access, and the ridiculously long password guys. Also, once I made use of the advanced filtering function on my router and started blocking Chinese address space and instituted the denyhosts script, my logs got a lot quieter.

Fark you, China.


Just curious, if you took apart all of your gear, how many of the components are made in China or were assembled in China meaning they got their hands on it?

Just going to China with any electronics means they're going to go through it without your knowledge.  Did you see the hidden cameras they setup in hotels in China where "business men" left their laptops in their rooms.  As soon as they left the hotel employees and Chinese agents go into the room and look through the laptop.  They were caught on the hidden cameras.  SOP for them.  That's why lots of companies don't even let you go to China with your normal machine.  You bring a sanitized machine with almost nothing on it and limited access.  And when you come back they scan it so many times before re-imaging it and possible destroying it due it being compromised by them installing something on it.
 
2013-02-19 07:31:43 AM

HotIgneous Intruder: NO!
It was IRAN, IRAN, IRAN!
IRAN, I tell you!


But, Iran's so far away.
 
2013-02-19 07:32:56 AM

Jon iz teh kewl: /sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 119.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 120.0.0.0/8 ...

the fark is all that nonsense.

looks linuxy/illegal to me.



well... if you don't like iptables, you can always route those class a blocks to /dev/null0 on your closest convenient cisco/lucent/other router too... :)
 
2013-02-19 07:40:48 AM
Ah, Mandiant, the author of the Time Service my firm rolled out to our end users for security reasons.  A service with the very apt name systemeattime.exe...one that was so secretive it chewed up CPU like a madman on desktop after desktop.  They know security pretty well.  How to write a stable Windows service?  Not so much.
 
2013-02-19 07:41:11 AM
I find it hilarious (and worrying) that the vast majority of the mentioned "sophisticated spearfishing attacks" cited here could be confounded with a small piece of free software- used intelligently.

This isn't hacking, at least not the initial push to infect machines anyway.  It's amateurish.  Fortunately for the "hackers", the defense against such attacks among their victims is equally inept.

And once again, I'm reminded of my rule about our government and it's demonstrated understanding of computers and the internet in general: the ratio of words to which the prefix 'cyber' is appended is inversely proportional to the degree of actual intelligence being elicited on the subject.
 
2013-02-19 07:42:14 AM
Does anyone believe that there isn't an active effort by both sides to hack the others systems and gain information?
 
2013-02-19 07:44:11 AM

FullMetalPanda: Did you see the hidden cameras they setup in hotels in China where "business men" left their laptops in their rooms.  As soon as they left the hotel employees and Chinese agents go into the room and look through the laptop.


No, I didn't see that.  Got a link?
 
2013-02-19 07:46:09 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: /sbin/iptables -N BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -I INPUT -j BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 1.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 14.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 27.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 36.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 39.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
...




Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.
 
2013-02-19 07:46:59 AM

Alonjar: Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.


I've heard they're behind eight of them, in fact.
 
2013-02-19 07:48:32 AM

SkunkWerks: Alonjar: Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.

I've heard they're behind eight of them, in fact.


Yeah, good luck.
 
2013-02-19 07:48:32 AM
 
2013-02-19 07:49:10 AM

jso2897: HotIgneous Intruder: NO!
It was IRAN, IRAN, IRAN!
IRAN, I tell you!

But, Iran's so far away.


I couldn't get away.
 
2013-02-19 07:52:03 AM

ZzeusS: Better Article


In what way?
 
2013-02-19 07:54:09 AM

Alonjar: HindiDiscoMonster: /sbin/iptables -N BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -I INPUT -j BLACKLIST
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 1.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 14.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 27.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 36.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
/sbin/iptables -A BLACKLIST -s 39.0.0.0/8 -j DROP
...

Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.


yes, and you apparently are unable to identify snark... i'm sorry for you.
 
2013-02-19 07:54:45 AM
While a large part of the attacks are feeling you out from the outside. Every successful attack has been through social engineering. An infected memory stick at a trade show, an email that looks just legitimate enough to open the attachment. And once the payload is inside and on your network, all the nice hardening you did on the outer edge isn't going to help much.
 Also you cannot completely depend on security software to defend against the level of these attacks. The attackers are writing code just for you, so most detection tools will not have the pattern down to compare against. You have to learn the communication patterns of your network and users and latch on to sudden though subtle changes.
 
2013-02-19 07:56:44 AM

SkunkWerks: I find it hilarious (and worrying) that the vast majority of the mentioned "sophisticated spearfishing attacks" cited here could be confounded with a small piece of free software- used intelligently.

This isn't hacking, at least not the initial push to infect machines anyway.  It's amateurish.  Fortunately for the "hackers", the defense against such attacks among their victims is equally inept.


Well, duh.

Not every opponent on the battlefield is a tank.  Most, in fact, are infantry soldiers with significantly less protection.  You develop sophisticated missiles to go after the tanks, but you use soldiers with rifles to go after the infantry guys.

This is the PLA we are talking about.  They are going to think in military terms.  Also, they may not want to use their best stuff, for fear of it losing it's effectiveness.  Sophisticated zero day exploits are the "secret weapons" of cyberwarfare, the kind of thing you hold in reserve until you really need them.
 
2013-02-19 07:57:47 AM

Krusty_the_Barbarian: a large part of the attacks are feeling you out from the outside.


So, it's like how I handled my dates as a teenager.
 
2013-02-19 07:58:27 AM

Krusty_the_Barbarian: The attackers are writing code just for you


Um...  no.

FTA: For more than six years, Mandiant tracked the actions of Comment Crew, so named for the attackers' penchant for embedding hidden code or comments into Web pages. Based on the digital crumbs the group left behind - its attackers have been known to use the same malware, Web domains, Internet protocol addresses, hacking tools and techniques across attacks - Mandiant followed 141 attacks by the group, which it called "A.P.T. 1" for Advanced Persistent Threat 1.

Again, I'm going to go with "attacks have no need of sophistication because targeted defenses aren't very sophisticated either".
 
2013-02-19 08:00:13 AM

SkunkWerks: I find it hilarious (and worrying) that the vast majority of the mentioned "sophisticated spearfishing attacks" cited here could be confounded with a small piece of free software- used intelligently.

This isn't hacking, at least not the initial push to infect machines anyway.  It's amateurish.  Fortunately for the "hackers", the defense against such attacks among their victims is equally inept.

And once again, I'm reminded of my rule about our government and it's demonstrated understanding of computers and the internet in general: the ratio of words to which the prefix 'cyber' is appended is inversely proportional to the degree of actual intelligence being elicited on the subject.


I think some of those are decoys to make you think you're actually blocking them.  As mentioned, look at the components on your gear.  How much of it was made in China or assembled in China?  This means they already have a backdoor in that you will never see.  THey just have idiots generate fake attacks to make you think you're blocking them.
 
2013-02-19 08:01:05 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: /problem solved.


upload.wikimedia.org

Problem un-solved.

SkunkWerks: Alonjar: Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.

I've heard they're behind eight of them, in fact.


That, too.
 
2013-02-19 08:03:22 AM

HindiDiscoMonster: yes, and you apparently are unable to identify snark... i'm sorry for you.


Sarcasm is difficult to detect on the interbutts and can easily be mistaken for ignorance (Poe's law and similar and all that).  Should've used a snark mark.
 
2013-02-19 08:04:23 AM

dittybopper: Also, they may not want to use their best stuff, for fear of it losing it's effectiveness.


Again, the primary reasoning is that they have no need to.  We're not supplying them with much of a challenge.  People calling these attacks "sophisticated" generally do so from a perspective of either computer illiteracy, or computer ineptitude.

That said, I've worked in places where I've watched programmers infect their machines with this kind of stuff- and on a regular basis.  So maybe it's not just understanding- it's a willingness to trade some degree of convenience for reasonable degrees of security.

Sure, in any conflict you might want to save your bunker busters for the real "hardened" targets.  I'd contend that, on the field right now, very few targets actually warrant them.
 
2013-02-19 08:04:46 AM
MythDragon
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

Black Lotus has trained us well.

Than why is only one of you working?
 
2013-02-19 08:07:04 AM
I would be mad at their DNS poisoning attempts and attempted packet injection, but Comcast does way more damage there to its own customers.  Do I wish China would DIAF?  Sure, but for other reasons.  Until then, they can keep watching the animal breeding videos on the honeypot.  I may have to change that to unwatched Kardashian vids after this egregious action, though lol.  It would be nice if the LUGs around here would write a "lead poisoning" program that packet shapes their traffic.  That was the one thing that really pissed me off was the melanine poisoning of our cat.  Feeding lead-based newspapers to a Chinese youth is one thing, but to a domesticated cat, it is a slow death.
 
2013-02-19 08:09:06 AM

sendtodave: FullMetalPanda: Did you see the hidden cameras they setup in hotels in China where "business men" left their laptops in their rooms.  As soon as they left the hotel employees and Chinese agents go into the room and look through the laptop.

No, I didn't see that.  Got a link?


This is "common" knowledge now.  Just do some searches, Slash Dot talks about it:  http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/12/04/234242/the-trouble-with-bringin g -your-business-laptop-to-china
 
2013-02-19 08:09:17 AM

FullMetalPanda: I think some of those are decoys to make you think you're actually blocking them. As mentioned, look at the components on your gear. How much of it was made in China or assembled in China? This means they already have a backdoor in that you will never see. THey just have idiots generate fake attacks to make you think you're blocking them.


granitegrok.com

Though, to be honest, I'd take Paranoid Schizophrenia over the kind of lazzez-faire attitude I see pretty routinely and even at high levels- regarding computer security.  It's apt to at least be somewhat more effective.
 
2013-02-19 08:12:19 AM
I don't really care, attack away, but if they fark with the farkin yoga thread, I'd say nuke the bastards.
 
2013-02-19 08:18:11 AM

DoBeDoBeDo: But the cheap networking gear we purchase from Chinese factories is totally legit and free of any root kits.


I always wondered why more wasn't made of this, and whether anyone is actively testing samples of popular routers and other electronics.

The only real safeguard I can think of is that if such tactics by China were exposed, we might boycott their shiat and they'd be farked economically, so they actually do care about us as "customers" when it comes to consumer goods. Kind of like how the lead paint factory foreman offed himself out of shame.
 
2013-02-19 08:19:51 AM

SkunkWerks: ZzeusS: Better Article

In what way?



In the way in which I couldn't pass the paywall and read the BBC article first.  Which is to say not better at all.  But don't tell anyone else!
 
2013-02-19 08:21:51 AM
Personally, I think it was a setup and the building is empty.   But the more attention to this kind of stuff, the better, so it's all good.
 
2013-02-19 08:21:58 AM

ZzeusS: In the way in which I couldn't pass the paywall and read the BBC article first.


Ahh, yeah, I got a blank screen for about ten seconds, then the article loaded.

ZzeusS: But don't tell anyone else!


Oh, no worries there...
 
2013-02-19 08:25:26 AM

SkunkWerks: Krusty_the_Barbarian: The attackers are writing code just for you

Um...  no.

FTA: For more than six years, Mandiant tracked the actions of Comment Crew, so named for the attackers' penchant for embedding hidden code or comments into Web pages. Based on the digital crumbs the group left behind - its attackers have been known to use the same malware, Web domains, Internet protocol addresses, hacking tools and techniques across attacks - Mandiant followed 141 attacks by the group, which it called "A.P.T. 1" for Advanced Persistent Threat 1.

Again, I'm going to go with "attacks have no need of sophistication because targeted defenses aren't very sophisticated either".


SkunkWerks: Sure, in any conflict you might want to save your bunker busters for the real "hardened" targets. I'd contend that, on the field right now, very few targets actually warrant them.


Um,, Yes.

If you are penetrated by the simple attacks then of course they stop there. If not, they continue to elevate to more sophisticated attacks until they achieve their goals. And I can assure you that means releasing the attack they wrote just for the intended target. You just do not realize how many "bunker busters" as you say, they are willing and capable of writing. I see at least 4 new ones a year that make it through all the walls and obfuscation to the real network. These will never see another company or network because they wrote it just for us. And these are the ones you have to stay on your toes for. If you did your job right, all the fluff in the paragraph you quoted first are just lines in a report you get every week.
 
2013-02-19 08:29:26 AM
From the Mandiant report, describing great moments in security fails:

i47.tinypic.com
LOL. "Seems legit."

CSB: A few months ago, an email pops into my inbox at work. It's clearly a phishing attempt, as it came from "ITHe­l­pDes­k­[nospam-﹫-backwards]k­seDple­H­*com" and wanted me to click a link to request an "emergency quota extension" for my email. I hover over the link to see what URL it points to and it's something like account-updates.com/longserialnumber. So I submit the URL to urlquery.net (first altering the long serial number at the end). Urlquery contemplates it and reports back to me that it's trying to load from a site called "Phishguru." I look them up, and it's a company you can contract with to do phising testing on your users. It either keeps track (via the serial number) of who clicks on the link, or--if you pay for the gold service--it'll deliver training to the user right there and then. So I send an email to our lead IT security guy saying, "Hey, got this email, didn't click on the link, and oh by the way are you running a phishing test on us?" I get a nearly immediate phone call back along the lines of "OHSHAITOHSHIATOHSHIAT, please don't tell the other users we're doing this!!!" Total elapsed time from receipt of email: three minutes.

I handle computer security LIKE A BOSS.

Postscript: Found out later that about half the company clicked on the link. One person clicked on it 25 times, trying to figure out why it didn't do anything.
 
2013-02-19 08:33:49 AM

SkunkWerks: FullMetalPanda: I think some of those are decoys to make you think you're actually blocking them. As mentioned, look at the components on your gear. How much of it was made in China or assembled in China? This means they already have a backdoor in that you will never see. THey just have idiots generate fake attacks to make you think you're blocking them.

[granitegrok.com image 249x262]

Though, to be honest, I'd take Paranoid Schizophrenia over the kind of lazzez-faire attitude I see pretty routinely and even at high levels- regarding computer security.  It's apt to at least be somewhat more effective.


That's why the US government was perfectly fine with China buying US Robotics?
 
2013-02-19 08:36:40 AM

Krusty_the_Barbarian: Um,, Yes.


Then we agree.  Excellent.

Krusty_the_Barbarian: You just do not realize how many "bunker busters" as you say, they are willing and capable of writing.


Because they aren't needed, again.  Even the most "sophisticated" targets are shockingly not that hard to crack- else you wouldn't have top level executives falling for the same silly scams that are generally employed to steal World of Warcraft accounts.  But you can continue with envisioning this stuff as Gibson presented it in Neuromancer if you like.  I liked that book too and I know the reality of things is far less glamorous (and has far less Keanu Reeves in it).  So much so it's often hard to cope with the disappointment.

/backpat

Come to think of it, another series I loved was Ursula K. LeGuin's Wizard of Earthsea.  In particular the lesson about not trying to accomplish with high sorcery what can as easily (if not more easily) be accomplished by more mundane means.

And this isn't to say that I don't think China has the bunker busters.  I believe it does.  However I don't think this article describes any instances in which they were actually employed.  And maybe that's indicative of what the State feels you need to know about the subject, I don't know.
 
2013-02-19 08:36:41 AM
but farkers told me im stupid for being wary of china and making them the new boogeyman.
 
2013-02-19 08:45:51 AM

KarmicDisaster: SkunkWerks: Alonjar: Yes, because state sponsored cyber warfare agents dont know how to use a proxy.

I've heard they're behind eight of them, in fact.

Yeah, good luck.


Came for this.  Leaving infected with malware.
 
2013-02-19 08:47:57 AM

Dr. Goldshnoz: but farkers told me im stupid for being wary of china and making them the new boogeyman.


Don't like Lenovo.
Don't like Huawei.
Don't like chinese hackers.
Don't like russian & ukranian hackers.

Pass the tinfoil, I'm right there with you.
 
2013-02-19 08:51:00 AM

FullMetalPanda: SkunkWerks: FullMetalPanda: I think some of those are decoys to make you think you're actually blocking them. As mentioned, look at the components on your gear. How much of it was made in China or assembled in China? This means they already have a backdoor in that you will never see. THey just have idiots generate fake attacks to make you think you're blocking them.
[granitegrok.com image 249x262]
Though, to be honest, I'd take Paranoid Schizophrenia over the kind of lazzez-faire attitude I see pretty routinely and even at high levels- regarding computer security.  It's apt to at least be somewhat more effective.


That's why the US government was perfectly fine with China buying US Robotics?


You don't get it do you.  They don't care, nobody cares if somebody is making money.  American Corporate Whores have sold us out to appease their masters on Wall Street.  The money grubbing idiots sell sensitive software and hardware to our ideological opposites TO MAKE THEIR QUARTERLY SALES NUMBERS.  If you get caught the company pays a fine - period.  There are no teeth in enforcement.
Look, unable to see more than 90 days ahead, we have single handedly improved China's welfare to the point that China is our fiercest competitor for fossil fuel - just so we could sell cars in China.  I agree that is a gross simplification but knowing this, revisit the evening news to see where else we have shot ourselves in the foot so some company can make a few bucks and keep the street happy.
It's old and a mis-direction but the comment still holds water that ->

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu

with all the forgoing in mind, I hadn't heard about the sale of US Robotics.  Really depressing.
 
2013-02-19 08:53:25 AM

SkunkWerks: Because they aren't needed, again.


Lovely you trying to belittle me by referring to fiction novels. I don't "envision" anything, I get woken up at night when the trips go off and I have to freaking log in again to see whether a new user thinks our monitoring warning is a joke or if they really have gotten in, again. The only real solace I get is that they have gotten booted back out enough times that now they have taken to trying to get people hired in instead. Which leads back to watching your network traffic or who is writing what data to which thumb drives.
 
2013-02-19 09:02:41 AM

Krusty_the_Barbarian: Lovely you trying to belittle me


I'm not.  Do you normally assume anyone disagreeing with you is belittling you?  Could be a barrier to conversation, you know.

Krusty_the_Barbarian: I don't "envision" anything


Really?  I thought one of the unique advantages of the human mind was to think metaphorically?  Well alright.  I guess you're stuck with just your perceptions of things.

Good luck man!
 
2013-02-19 09:15:29 AM

HotWingConspiracy: I'm generally not paranoid about China, but I have been noticing a lot of people running interference for them on stories like this on forums and comments sections. Impossible to tell if it is coordinated or means anything, but it's happening.

NPR had a report this morning where their guy in China went to the building. Said it was just a drab building but did have military signs, warnings against photography and a beat cop patrolling.


There was a Chinese shill here on Fark. He hasn't been around for months, though.
 
2013-02-19 10:02:07 AM
There appears to be a chink in our firewall.
 
2013-02-19 10:28:25 AM
Thousands of unsecured PCs, bogged down with viri and bootleg OS installs.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-19 11:00:18 AM

FullMetalPanda: sendtodave: FullMetalPanda: Did you see the hidden cameras they setup in hotels in China where "business men" left their laptops in their rooms.  As soon as they left the hotel employees and Chinese agents go into the room and look through the laptop.

No, I didn't see that.  Got a link?

This is "common" knowledge now.  Just do some searches, Slash Dot talks about it:  http://it.slashdot.org/story/12/12/04/234242/the-trouble-with-bringin g -your-business-laptop-to-china


Well, maybe my google fu is poor.

"hidden camera hotel laptop compromised china "

Some articles on how laptops could be compromised
That slashdot link
This fark link
hidden camera elevator pranks
hotel maids sometimes steal stuff
how to pick hotel locks
etc

I'm not seeing where hiden cameras caught agents breaking into laptops.  The article linked in that /. doesn't seem to have this, either.

I mean, sure, there is a likelyhood that someone could (and does) break into people's laptops in high-risk countries.  But I'm looking for the video that you mentioned shows that they did.  Evidence over FUD.

Thanks in advance.
 
2013-02-19 11:03:29 AM

zetar: HotWingConspiracy: I'm generally not paranoid about China, but I have been noticing a lot of people running interference for them on stories like this on forums and comments sections. Impossible to tell if it is coordinated or means anything, but it's happening.

NPR had a report this morning where their guy in China went to the building. Said it was just a drab building but did have military signs, warnings against photography and a beat cop patrolling.

There was a Chinese shill here on Fark. He hasn't been around for months, though.


Aw, do you mean me?

I bet you mean me.

I have a groupie!  <3
 
2013-02-19 11:07:21 AM

Dr. Goldshnoz: but farkers told me im stupid for being wary of china and making them the new boogeyman.


Do you read some kind of alternate universe Fark?   Farkers hate China.

I live in the Pearl River Delta.  I don't think it's so bad, all things considered.

This is unfathomable to most Farkers.
 
2013-02-19 12:07:25 PM

sendtodave: I'm not seeing where hiden cameras caught agents breaking into laptops. The article linked in that /. doesn't seem to have this, either.

I mean, sure, there is a likelyhood that someone could (and does) break into people's laptops in high-risk countries. But I'm looking for the video that you mentioned shows that they did. Evidence over FUD.

Thanks in advance.


It has personally happened to me.  I am not a business man (I was a high priority target for different reasons), but I had to replace every piece of electronic equipment I owned after I finished my tour in China.

There was not much reason to put up cameras or other intruder tests.  You know they are doing it, they know they are doing it, and putting up cameras is a good way to piss them off and end up with broken stuff.
 
2013-02-19 12:51:41 PM

sendtodave: I live in the Pearl River Delta. I don't think it's so bad, all things considered.


Yeah, not so bad?

Try striking up a conversation about Tiennanmen Square during June of 1989 some time, or tell people you think Tibet was a soveriegn independent state before it was invaded and conquered, or how the Republic of China in Taiwan is a separate nation than the People's Republic of China.

Funny how just talking about history the rest of the world knows for a plain fact can have you thrown down the memory hole in a totalitarian dictatorship.  Not state secrets, simple easily documented history that can easily be verified in almost any other country in the world.

I'm mildly surprised that Fark gets through the Great Firewall, then again, assuming you're not just telling people you live in China for Teh Lulz.
 
2013-02-19 01:28:43 PM
My partner's father runs a medium sized German manufacturing company. He says the major advantage that German manufacturing has over the Chinese is quality, because they can't match them on sticker price.

Whenever he sends reps to China, he hires a security expert to go with them to stop them stealing the specs for their equipment (which they've invested years of R&D to get right). Doesn't matter, their agents just turn up at the trade shows, photograph all the display material they can quite blatantly, then try to reverse engineer it from there. Usually unsuccessfully, but they try.

He also says that Russia is just as bad: They're trying to close the technology gap in a wide host of industries, and will use espionage to get what they need. Stealing laptops and files from hotel rooms is normal, snooping into papers and laptops while they're unattended, all normal, all expected, and all prepared for.
 
2013-02-19 03:04:29 PM

sendtodave: Dr. Goldshnoz: but farkers told me im stupid for being wary of china and making them the new boogeyman.

Do you read some kind of alternate universe Fark?   Farkers hate China.

I live in the Pearl River Delta.  I don't think it's so bad, all things considered.

This is unfathomable to most Farkers.


Living in China is unfathomable to most Farkers?

Or acting like China is not an undemocratic state throwing the weight of its resources behind attempts to steal intellectual property, including, but not limited to military secrets, at an almost unbelievable scale is unfathomable to most Farkers?
 
2013-02-19 03:07:46 PM

Moopy Mac: sendtodave: Dr. Goldshnoz: but farkers told me im stupid for being wary of china and making them the new boogeyman.

Do you read some kind of alternate universe Fark?   Farkers hate China.

I live in the Pearl River Delta.  I don't think it's so bad, all things considered.

This is unfathomable to most Farkers.

Living in China is unfathomable to most Farkers?

Or acting like China is not an undemocratic state throwing the weight of its resources behind attempts to steal intellectual property, including, but not limited to military secrets, at an almost unbelievable scale is unfathomable to most Farkers?


In Saudi Arabia women cannot work outside the home, interact with not relative men alone or drive cars.
In the USA women working the same job make less money than their male counterparts.
 
2013-02-19 06:54:29 PM
Moopy Mac:

In Saudi Arabia women cannot work outside the home, interact with not relative men alone or drive cars.
In the USA women working the same job make less money than their male counterparts.


And...

The fact that there are still social injustices and crap holes going on in the world does not make China better. Yes -- crappy things happen in the world. Do we really have to biatch about every little hell hole or issue in the world before we are allowed to biatch about china?
 
2013-02-19 06:57:59 PM
Prank Call of Cthulhu:  Also, once I made use of the advanced filtering function on my router and started blocking Chinese address space and instituted the denyhosts script, my logs got a lot quieter.

Fark you, China.



Same experience here back when I had a server to run.  It's amazing how just blocking a few class A subnets belonging to Asia will cut down your obvious hacking attempts and spam down by at least 90%.
Fark them, indeed.
 
2013-02-19 09:32:18 PM

Silverstaff: sendtodave: I live in the Pearl River Delta. I don't think it's so bad, all things considered.

Yeah, not so bad?

Try striking up a conversation about Tiennanmen Square during June of 1989 some time, or tell people you think Tibet was a soveriegn independent state before it was invaded and conquered, or how the Republic of China in Taiwan is a separate nation than the People's Republic of China.

Funny how just talking about history the rest of the world knows for a plain fact can have you thrown down the memory hole in a totalitarian dictatorship.  Not state secrets, simple easily documented history that can easily be verified in almost any other country in the world.

I'm mildly surprised that Fark gets through the Great Firewall, then again, assuming you're not just telling people you live in China for Teh Lulz.


I have struck up conversations on these things.   Everyone has an opinion, but these are what stuck with me:

a) the peope weren't ready for popular democracy in 1989, and they still aren't now (heck, you hear the same argument in the US about the poor quality of our electorate).  Could China have risen economically so fast without state control?  Doubtful.  They are trying to copy Singapore.

b) Tibet was a fuedalistic theocracy before the China took it over (they're not alone in that assessment:   http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html ).  I'd say overthrowing a slave owning kingdom is better than, say, overthrowing a queen because you want to grow sugar and bananas (like Hawaii).

c) Taiwan isn't legally a seperate nation.  The UN recognized this in, what, 1971?  And since the 90s, Taiwanese leaders themselves don't even push for seperatism.  Most people understand the cultural and political differences, of course, and Taiwain is left to govern themselves.  I'm thinking Puerto Rico is a (weak, I'll grant) analogy.

I'm still here, I haven't been snatched up in the night.  Honestly, I'm more scared of cops in the US kicking my ass, or even putting me in prison, for some BS minor infraction than I am here.  They seem more authoritarian there.  They aren't limiting soda sizes here.

I mean, the image of China as some boot-to-neck police state is rediculous.  Eveyone is breaking rules all the time!   Being able to smoke directly under a "no smoking" sign without repercussions is a freedom you wouldn't have in the US.

As long as you don't embarrass someone higher up the food chain than you are, you're fine.
 
2013-02-19 09:34:57 PM

The WindowLicker: sendtodave: I'm not seeing where hiden cameras caught agents breaking into laptops. The article linked in that /. doesn't seem to have this, either.

I mean, sure, there is a likelyhood that someone could (and does) break into people's laptops in high-risk countries. But I'm looking for the video that you mentioned shows that they did. Evidence over FUD.

Thanks in advance.

It has personally happened to me.  I am not a business man (I was a high priority target for different reasons), but I had to replace every piece of electronic equipment I owned after I finished my tour in China.

There was not much reason to put up cameras or other intruder tests.  You know they are doing it, they know they are doing it, and putting up cameras is a good way to piss them off and end up with broken stuff.


Were you staying at typical cheap 3-star Chinese hotels, or at upscale ones catering to Westerners?

I'm wondering if the also do this to the average Zhang.
 
2013-02-19 10:16:34 PM

sendtodave: Were you staying at typical cheap 3-star Chinese hotels, or at upscale ones catering to Westerners?

I'm wondering if the also do this to the average Zhang.


Let me put it this way.  I was somewhat directly tied to the U.S. Government at the time.  It is likely that I got the full "eye of sauron" treatment.  I am talking about my residence.  I am talking about some deeply discounted cut-rate hotels catering to the Chinese, and I am talking about 5star luxury accommodations.  I also had exposure to a number of business/technology folks.  A very common theme was how irritating it was dealing with the persistent and blatant attempts to steal/copy western designs and intellectual property.

You want to know what they do to the average Zhang?  Ask your friends to have a long chat with you about whatever subject is the government taboo of the week.  If you need help finding out what those are, I recommend this site: http://blockedonweibo.tumblr.com/ .  Better yet, just ask your peers how much fun they have trying to get around the great firewall of China.  The active censorship is really just the tip of the iceberg, but it is a determined effort to actively suppress information in a way most people just don't have to deal with.  Now when I was there, I needed a VPN to access FARK, which makes me wonder.  Have they changed the rules, or are you working to bypass repression while claiming the government does not carry it out?
 Now as a westerner (I am assuming) you are actually immune to a lot of the repression.  Sure if you break any laws or act up enough they will arrest you, but then your embassy or consulate will make a stink and you will either serve out your term with regular visits to ensure your health, or you will be deported.  On the other hand, you can be like the Chinese citizens.  I had the opportunity to watch members of the PAP beat the everloving crap out of people in front of the building on a number of different occasions.


Yes, the US has its share of authoritarian dicks in power.  The LAPD in the David Donner case is a giant example.  That said, the US and China are nowhere near in the same league.  For you to claim that China is worse makes me think that you are some sort of trustfundy rage against the machine type.  Let me guess, you went to China to teach english after graduating and not being able to find a job?  You are not half as clever as you think you are.

Look up the story surrounding Bo Xilai if you want corruption and totalitarian government.  This is a great article about the start of the incident http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/china-news/how-wang-lijun-fled-to-the - us-consulate-190363.html but the story only gets better when it turns out Bo's wife was murdering people to scam them out of money.  This is business as usual at high levels in a way that the US just is not quite at.
 
2013-02-19 10:51:12 PM

The WindowLicker: You want to know what they do to the average Zhang?  Ask your friends to have a long chat with you about whatever subject is the government taboo of the week.  If you need help finding out what those are, I recommend this site: http://blockedonweibo.tumblr.com/ .  Better yet, just ask your peers how much fun they have trying to get around the great firewall of China.  The active censorship is really just the tip of the iceberg, but it is a determined effort to actively suppress information in a way most people just don't have to deal with.  Now when I was there, I needed a VPN to access FARK, which makes me wonder.  Have they changed the rules, or are you working to bypass repression while claiming the government does not carry it out?


Fark isn't blocked, though it has been.   Just about all the poeple Iknow, those that have/use computers use them to shop or play WoW.  They're 90s generation, and fairly apolitical.  What is fashionable matters more to them than some Chongching political scandal.

Now as a westerner (I am assuming) you are actually immune to a lot of the repression.

Well, sure.  The upside to being a perpetual forienger is that I'm also treated somewhat like a guest.  Is the guy selling BBQ on thestreet getting beaten by chengguan (street LEOs) for lack of permits having a particularly good time?  No.

So I'm taking advantage of being at a higher status.  Meh.

For you to claim that China is worse makes me think that you are some sort of trustfundy rage against the machine type.  Let me guess, you went to China to teach english after graduating and not being able to find a job?  You are not half as clever as you think you are.

Nah, I just got tired of working in a cube farm, wanted to try somethng new, and ended up finding a wife and staying.  Also a cheap, relatively safe place (compared to other countries that cost the same) for my dad to retire.  Thanks for the stereotype, though.
 
2013-02-19 10:53:09 PM

The WindowLicker: http://blockedonweibo.tumblr.com/


Ha!  Rage face emotes.  Awesome.

And grandpa Wen's still in the shiat.

Thanks for the site, this will be interesting.
 
2013-02-19 11:04:55 PM
According to a 2010 survey, most [Great Firewall] climbers are university students who simply want to use Google search. Other findings show that only a small share of Chinese Internet users bother to use anti-censorship tools and are mostly satisfied with the domestic offerings available to them. However, even these users are often passively involved in anti-censorship measures when they engage in practices like using coded language on social media sites to evade censors.

Yeah, seems about right.  Most people don't care about the things that the government blocks.
 
2013-02-19 11:22:12 PM
a) the people weren't ready... BULLshiat. You dont get to farking say when im "ready" for democracy. What -- do i apply for a democracy license or some crap? Screw you -- murdering protesting students is fascist bullshiat and you know it. fark you and any prick who says someone isn't "ready" for democracy. NOT YOUR DECISION.


b) Tibet was a fuedalistic theocracy ... So? So is Saudi Arabia. So is Pakistan. So is half of freaking Africa. Why was Tibet ready for communism but communist china isnt ready for democracy? What the hell? Imean -- North Korea is essentially a feudalistic theocracy based around the Kim family. They sit right at chinas border and im sure they share ethnic and cultural heritage -- why doesn't china go in and clean that shiat up if thats what its all about? You're delusional if you think its ok for china to occupy tibet because you think the Dali Lama being the king of Tibet is somehow worse than Chinese overlords thousands of miles away administering your country like it was fodder for the rest of the country.
c) Taiwan isn't legally a separate nation. ... Are you kidding? they havent pushed for seperatism because it would initiate a full scale occupation by the PRC. Its tough to speak your mind when someone is holding a sledgehammer over your nutsack. You know who else is ACTUALLY in a similar situation? Chechen peoples. Grozny was pummeled into the ground and the chechen people are no closer to independence from russia. Taiwan exists and is allowed to self govern ONLY because they don't outwardly declare independance. Of course they don't talk about separating -- China has made it clear that only one option is a peaceful option.

I'm still here, I haven't been snatched up in the night. Honestly, I'm more scared of cops in the US kicking my ass, or even putting me in prison, for some BS minor infraction than I am here. They seem more authoritarian there. They aren't limiting soda sizes here.
No of course not. They do however sell criminals to science exhibits and execute people in vans. They limit what you can see online and if you DO end up in trouble your chances depend less on guilt and more on who you know in government.
Oh -- did i mention the forced abortions? Look that up why dont you? When was the last time you heard about a girl in the usa being taken by cops to a hospital to have a late term abortion forced upon you? But no no no... Im sure things over there are great. Hows the air quality? How about the water quality? pretty good? Just enjoying a nice sunny day in south east china?
Whats the deal? Do you really buy that crap?

" As long as you don't embarrass someone higher up the food chain than you are, you're fine.

... And there are no words to argue with logic like that. Dont step on the invisible line and you will be just AOK. Feel free to write a reply. Take your time, i know it can be hard to type while giving your Chinese masters such a vigorous handy J.

The WindowLicker: Let me put it this way. I was somewhat directly tied to the U.S. Government at the time.


Was being in the CIA half as fun as Argo made it look?
 
2013-02-20 08:37:37 AM
sendtodave

1. The "people were not ready".  Were they all ready for communism when Mao lead his revolution against the democratically elected government of the Republic of China?  Were they all ready when starving to death during the Great Leap Forward?  Were they all ready when 2000+ years of heritage was being destroyed during the Cultural Revolution?  It sure looked like people were ready in the streets in 1989, it was the Chinese Communist Party that was scared of losing power (seeing the collapse of the Iron Curtain in progress through similar revolts in Eastern Europe and the decay of the USSR in progress) and wanted to crush democracy as a threat to its power, not the people deciding they didn't want to make their own decisions and wanted party bosses to think for them.

2. "Tibet was a feudalistic theocracy".  Yeah, so what?  It was an independent sovereign state.  At least in that regard you're not parroting the Chinese party line that Tibet always has been a part of China.  However, China invaded and annexed.

Hawaii is a very poor comparison.  Hawaii had a referendum before statehood, they could elect to seek statehood, stay as a territory, or seek independence.  Only a very tiny minority sought independence.  I wonder if there was an option for a free, fair and open referendum in Tibet for independence from the PRC how that would go.  Then again, since there aren't free, fair and open elections in the PRC that can't happen.  Puerto Rico is even worse, since they voted last fall to seek statehood, and support for independence has been falling steadily over the decades.

3.  Taiwan is an even worse example.  The ROC was the democratically elected government of China after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.  Then Mao leads his communist revolution and after a years-long civil war chases the democratically elected Republic of China government off the mainland into some islands that are Chinese territory.  China had it's seat in the UN and on the UNSC because of the role of the ROC in WW II.  Diplomats from the PRC play some procedural games to get the ROC thrown out and replaced with the PRC. . .but 22 nations still diplomatically recognize the ROC on Taiwan as the government of China.

So, you're claiming that the Taiwanese government, elected by the people of Taiwan to represent them, is not legally valid because in 1971 the UN General Assembly voted that the PRC was the representative for the seat of "China" created in 1945?  Since when does the UN General Assembly have the authority to overrule a democratically elected government of a nation on its internal affairs?  The PRC has always vetoed any attempt for Taiwan to seek membership in the UN thanks to the "One China" policy, but that disenfranchises the millions on Taiwan, because the egos of the Communist Party bosses can't stand the idea they didn't win the revolution outright and some people escaped Maoist domination?

It's the whole right of people to self-determination, the idea that people get to choose their government.  It's a key idea of American politics, and anathema to Chinese politics.  Chinese politics are based on the idea of promoting social harmony over individual liberties.  If a person gets in the way of the masses, the person is wrong and will be stomped down.

Tibet was conquered and foreign totalitarian rule imposed.  The will for the Taiwanese people to be free is ignored by the PRC.  Calls for democracy on the mainland get people shot, or at best "disappeared".

Yeah, you're taking advantage of your foreigner status, and you even admit that it's more a matter of not pissing off the government and you'll be fine.  In the US, pissing people off is not a crime.  If it was, the WBC would have been in jail many years ago (for example).
 
2013-02-20 03:35:35 PM

Silverstaff: sendtodave

1. The "people were not ready".  Were they all ready for communism when Mao lead his revolution against the democratically elected government of the Republic of China?  Were they all ready when starving to death during the Great Leap Forward?  Were they all ready when 2000+ years of heritage was being destroyed during the Cultural Revolution?  It sure looked like people were ready in the streets in 1989, it was the Chinese Communist Party that was scared of losing power (seeing the collapse of the Iron Curtain in progress through similar revolts in Eastern Europe and the decay of the USSR in progress) and wanted to crush democracy as a threat to its power, not the people deciding they didn't want to make their own decisions and wanted party bosses to think for them.

2. "Tibet was a feudalistic theocracy".  Yeah, so what?  It was an independent sovereign state.  At least in that regard you're not parroting the Chinese party line that Tibet always has been a part of China.  However, China invaded and annexed.

Hawaii is a very poor comparison.  Hawaii had a referendum before statehood, they could elect to seek statehood, stay as a territory, or seek independence.  Only a very tiny minority sought independence.  I wonder if there was an option for a free, fair and open referendum in Tibet for independence from the PRC how that would go.  Then again, since there aren't free, fair and open elections in the PRC that can't happen.  Puerto Rico is even worse, since they voted last fall to seek statehood, and support for independence has been falling steadily over the decades.

3.  Taiwan is an even worse example.  The ROC was the democratically elected government of China after the fall of the Qing Dynasty.  Then Mao leads his communist revolution and after a years-long civil war chases the democratically elected Republic of China government off the mainland into some islands that are Chinese territory.  China had it's seat in the UN and on the UNSC because of ...


Wow that's alot to read.  I', a bit oo drunk to read that now sorry.  Friwnds took m e out and everyone wanted to gambei with the laowai.  It's a good life.

Will respond in aout ten hours.

Sorry,
 
2013-02-20 06:11:06 PM

sendtodave: Fark isn't blocked, though it has been. Just about all the poeple Iknow, those that have/use computers use them to shop or play WoW. They're 90s generation, and fairly apolitical. What is fashionable matters more to them than some Chongching political scandal.


Interesting, Fark being unblocked must be relatively recent.  I suggest you read up more on the Bo Xilai story.  They clamped down on it very hard, but it was not a minor political scandal.  It is a perfect example of the corruption of the government at every level.

As for the apathy of the Chinese, does the phrase "My father is Li Gang" mean anything to you?  I am starting to suspect that your peers don't talk about their political issues with you, in part this is probably because it is not healthy to have a problem with the government in China.

sendtodave: Nah, I just got tired of working in a cube farm, wanted to try somethng new, and ended up finding a wife and staying. Also a cheap, relatively safe place (compared to other countries that cost the same) for my dad to retire. Thanks for the stereotype, though.


My apology's for the stereotype.

sendtodave: So I'm taking advantage of being at a higher status. Meh.


I guess this is my whole point.  You are speaking from authority that the Chinese Government is not that bad because they don't bother you.  A large part of the reason they don't screw around with you, is that you are not talking politics with your peers, and because the US Government (or whatever particular western nation you are from) has your back.  It is a pretty damn big point to dismiss with a "Meh."

mikefinch: Was being in the CIA half as fun as Argo made it look?


I must firmly state that not only have I never been employed by/for the CIA, I also am completely unaware of their existence and/or operations overseas.  My work mostly consisted of standing behind a desk to answer the phone while looking good.
 
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