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(The New York Times)   The myth of America as the land of opportunity is busted by some Nobel winner   (opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com) divider line 26
    More: Sad, Nobel Laureates, Ayn Rand, equality of opportunity, environmental hazards, second inaugural address, Alan Krueger, achievement gap, Stiglitz  
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8199 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Feb 2013 at 3:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-18 04:25:57 PM
5 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Rock can't no speak English good


Pricipal . Caught sayof comic that has stoped releventing " See, told ya so" Is Rock millionaire or not. 10lbsofcheese Says yes. NY Times Looking for Horatio Alger -OR- "hello, I am  single to salute Pew Research Center and wait for American Dream again"
2013-02-18 11:10:10 PM
2 votes:
natazha
Nothing to add here.

It happened for one person, therefore every other person for whom it doesn't happen is lazy.


Ghastly
Besides, as I've stated many times before when Fascism 2.0 takes over the United States most of the population will love it, live comfortably under it, and not even recognize it.

If someone was going to turn the US fascist, first they'd section off all the land into small units and assign a loyal member of the ruling party to oversee each one. All productive enterprises (or at least the vast majority of them, including all major industry) would be run by members of the ruling party. Everyone else would be given just enough rudimentary education to make them a functional worker, with a healthy dose of nationalist and ideological propaganda. The ones that seem promising would be given a chance to prove their loyalty in higher education, after which they would be allowed to join the ruling party. The rest would be surveilled and kept disoriented with a massive and arbitrary system of demerits and punishments that would get them locked into an intractable bureaucracy, even those that aren't imprisoned (which would be a large number- maybe 1% of the population at any given time). Periodically there would be a high-profile arrest of a terrorist cell, to keep the populace convinced of the need for the police state- naturally, practically all of these plots would be concocted by the government.

Even those who manage to stay clear of that would be kept under control through the constant pressure of having to justify their existence by working, because it would take a certain amount of work-credits to have a house or apartment; those who do not would be forced out and pursued like animals, even if there was an excess of housing- in fact, armed guards would often be posted at empty housing, just to make sure nobody tried to get in. Work, naturally, would mean at least several hours per day of effective enslavement, since the taskmasters would be well aware that the workers' very existence depended on getting those work-credits. The number of work-credits required to have housing would gradually increase over time. Most perversely, it would be incumbent upon the workers to find places at which to sell themselves. Having a large number of desperate people would also make it easier to force those currently working to work harder without complaining, since there are so many potential replacements.

The government, of course, would be mainly a way of funneling wealth to well-connected members of the ruling party, with a bare modicum of public services to keep things from completely falling apart. There would be a major internal debate among the ruling party as to whether even that was too much.

The media would be the pinnacle of spectacle, full of Id-stroking garbage like sports, celebrities, and completely irrelevant minor tragedies given the attention appropriate for a major humanitarian crisis- anything to take the mind off the stress of the day. But this is the most devious part: Other media would not be banned, because that would be too blatant. Hardly anything would be explicitly banned. Instead, people would be constantly told how free they are, even though trying to actually exercise those freedoms would often be impossible due to bureaucracy. There would be no mandatory military draft; instead schools and the media would be saturated with propaganda extolling the virtues of joining, saying it would be a path to escape- even though the rates of homelessness, substance abuse, depression, suicide, etc, would all be worse for veterans than for the general population. That complicated system of demerits and punishments would all be blamed on specific missteps of the individual. The stress and desperation of trying to find work would be presented as a 'choice'. You could also trade in work-credits for minor amenities and amusements (as one might trade in tickets from an arcade), but nothing offered would really be any use; instead, there would be a constant barrage of propaganda about how fulfillment comes from acquiring these things- the act of acquisition itself would become a goal, a way of measuring whether or not a person is properly justifying their existence. From time to time the people would even be allowed to cast a ballot for one section or another of the ruling party (with policy differences being almost entirely cosmetic), and that would be used as a way of dismissing any complaints- if you don't like how things are under the Blues, vote for the Reds; if you don't like how things are under the Reds, vote for the Blues; and if you don't vote then you can't complain, because you didn't even bother doing your part.

It's a good thing America today is nothing like that.
2013-02-19 06:16:39 AM
1 votes:
I blame Human Resources. Everything bad related to work stems from the rise of corporate HR departments

- Stagnating salaries
- Requiring degrees for non-degree work
- Draconian workplace policies and rules
- Union busting
- Erosion of pension benefits to risky 401(k) plans
2013-02-18 07:11:09 PM
1 votes:

Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.


Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.


Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.
2013-02-18 06:16:22 PM
1 votes:

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


Someone wins the Powerball jackpot more often than your example of "opportunity" occurs.
2013-02-18 05:49:47 PM
1 votes:
To be fair, any kind of American (not just African-) is unlikely to be elected to preside in another country.
2013-02-18 05:18:27 PM
1 votes:

Lionel Mandrake: People still believe that crap?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Look!!  A single anecdote that proves anyone from anywhere has an equal chance of achieving anything as everyone else!!


Ostensibly Stealth could not properly read the article. This sort of statistical aberration was included by the author as inconsequential. Stealth's poor comprehension skill-set is likely the result of the institutionalized bias of our educational system. Unwittingly (of course) Stealth makes a better argument that the dream is indeed dead.
2013-02-18 05:13:52 PM
1 votes:

Philip Francis Queeg: Translation: I got mine, Fark you!


Translation: " I started with nothing, and have some now why cant you do the same and get yours"
2013-02-18 05:07:13 PM
1 votes:

stevenrushing: Let me just come out as one very against "equality of opportunity". I don't want the government artificially putting the children of those who did not properly prepare them for life on the same playing field as my children. I am working hard to give my children a leg up, a head start in life. By definition, to have a head start, there are going to be people who start behind you, and there are people who are working even harder than I am, or whose parents or grandparents worked harder than mine, whose children will be ahead of mine. I do not deny them that.


The only proper role of the government is to ensure that we are all equal before the law. Not equality of outcomes or even equality of opportunity.There is so much work here to be done. The rich often go to different judges, different prisons, and face shorter sentences. This is a serious problem in our society, and needs to be rectified. I don't claim to have all the answers, but we can start by paying defense attorneys competitively with what the private sector pays, and by auditing judges so that they are not a law unto themselves.


Before someone says I must have had it good as a child, let me assure you that I grew up incredibly poor, and have worked my whole life to be where I am.


Translation: I got mine, Fark you!
2013-02-18 05:06:40 PM
1 votes:
stevenrushing: Before someone says I must have had it good as a child, let me assure you that I grew up incredibly poor, and have worked my whole life to be where I am. fark you, I got mine.

FTFY
2013-02-18 04:58:37 PM
1 votes:

Philip Francis Queeg: o5iiawah: I'd say that having a 60% chance of moving out of poverty and into the middle class while living in a country where nobody starves to death, nobody is denied the best medical treatment in the world, just about everyone has a cellphone with access to the internet is pretty damn good.

What country is that?


Where the country that is ranked 38th in the world for medical care is  'the best medical treatment in the world'.
2013-02-18 04:54:52 PM
1 votes:

KiltedBastich: But when the wealthy set up social barriers to entry into their class that ensure that most of their wealth will end up in the hands of themselves, their peers and their children, whether directly through inheritance of privately owned wealth or indirectly through the inherited control of legal entities like foundations and businesses and through privileged access to education and opportunity, then you have a huge farking problem for any nation that dares to imagine itself as some form of representative democracy or republic.


The wealthy can only do that if they ingratiate themselves with government.  your beef, Occupy's beef, the Progressive agenda....

All of it should be directed towards Washington, DC.

Thanks to the tax code they write, GE and facebook pays no taxes and GETS billions back whilst a schlub earning $50,000 in a factory probably pays $14,000 and is just happy to get a couple hundred bucks back in middle February.  Thanks to the laws they write, companies escape prosecution when they commit fraud.  Thanks to government, it is easier to get rich investing in congressmen and lobbying than in R&D for a product.  Who needs the market to buy your products when you can convince government to do it? What is easier, making a product that 309,000,000 people might want or making a product that a few people in Washington can order 309,000,000 people to pay for?

Heresiarch: Are you saying that income inequality is only an issue when the lower classes reach a standard of living that was defined over half a century ago?


I'm saying that the only reason income inequality exists is because the US continues to experience in-migration of largely low-wage, low-skill individuals who stick largely to labor, and agriculture based jobs.  A similar trend existed for Irish, Italian, German and Jewish immigrants yet nobody is talking about an Italian wage gap or the Irish vs. Chinese income gap.

There is income mobility in this country, it is just an affront to the people at the NY Times and HuffPo that a first-generation Guatemalan immigrant isn't going to earn as much as some kid who grew up in Sun Valley, ID, went to Stanford and works for Sun Microsystems.   real wealth and prosperity is accumulated through generations of earning, education, home ownership and transfer of property from one generation to another - the very thing progressives like to attack.

I'd say that having a 60% chance of moving out of poverty and into the middle class while living in a country where nobody starves to death, nobody is denied the best medical treatment in the world, just about everyone has a cellphone with access to the internet is pretty damn good.

That must be why so many Americans are packing up and moving to Juarez.
2013-02-18 04:36:20 PM
1 votes:
This is America, becoming a Millionaire is as easy as winning America Idol (or at least making it to the finals), being a pretty girl who can sing & posting your voice on the youtube (we sure like song), choosing the right case on a game show or inheriting it!  and if you think it's more difficult than that you're just a naysayer!

disregard every thing you see every day, going to and from work, your first job to your second, pay no attention to the thousands of people on the same freeway stuck in traffic, never you mention the neighborhoods divided by property values & incomes, this is one great country where anything can happen and more than likely will (to your advantage, never disadvantage), so please, stay focused on your success & never give up, there's 24 hours in a day and between work & school & sleep & eating, all you need to do is get in the millionaire line.

/foreigners need not apply, our unlimited success is limited to Americans only!
2013-02-18 04:32:07 PM
1 votes:

yelmrog: tenpoundsofcheese: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: To quothe the profit Rock:

"We're a nation of B and C students. But let's keep it real, a black C student can run no company, a black C student can't run no Burger King, meanwhile the white C student just happens to be The President of The United States of America."

Rock can't no speak English good and yet he is multimillionaire.  Go figure

So why aren't you a multimillionaire already?


Well he is most certainly a potatonaire.
2013-02-18 04:25:48 PM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: To quothe the profit Rock:

"We're a nation of B and C students. But let's keep it real, a black C student can run no company, a black C student can't run no Burger King, meanwhile the white C student just happens to be The President of The United States of America."

Rock can't no speak English good and yet he is multimillionaire.  Go figure


Racist
2013-02-18 04:21:33 PM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: To quothe the profit Rock:

"We're a nation of B and C students. But let's keep it real, a black C student can run no company, a black C student can't run no Burger King, meanwhile the white C student just happens to be The President of The United States of America."

Rock can't no speak English good and yet he is multimillionaire.  Go figure


So why aren't you a multimillionaire already?
2013-02-18 04:07:36 PM
1 votes:

o5iiawah: According to from the Brookings Institution, only 58 percent of Americans born into the bottom fifth of income earners move out of that category, and just 6 percent born into the bottom fifth move into the top.

So you're telling me that you studied people from 1947 to 2013 and found that 40% of the people born in poverty and ready to retire today experienced no income mobility whatsoever?  Nice way to lie with statistics.  SOMEONE has to make up that bottom quintile, regardless of where wages, quality of life, life expectancy and advancements in technology have increased dramatically.


Word. Poor people be rich. I hear they got fridges and everything.
2013-02-18 04:07:10 PM
1 votes:
fta President Obama's second Inaugural Address used soaring language to reaffirm America's commitment to the dream of equality of opportunity

5th grade english is now "soaring"?
2013-02-18 04:05:27 PM
1 votes:
I love it when the liberals bring this argument forward.  Any time someone claims this, the immediate response is "La, la, la!" followed by "I can't hear you."  You repeat this until the Democrats have been shamed and acknowledge the error of their ways.  You repeat this until the Democrats realize they have wasted their time trying to argue with you.
2013-02-18 04:02:50 PM
1 votes:

MontanaDave: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Obama attended: Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School. He taught at the University of Chicago Law School. Yale was not part of his educational background.


i50.tinypic.com
2013-02-18 04:02:21 PM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: People still believe that crap?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Look!!  A single anecdote that proves anyone from anywhere has an equal chance of achieving anything as everyone else!!

Yes, it demonstrates that it is possible to succeed. You are pathetic if you believe that that is the only success story. Herman Cain laughs at you.


I thought you had me on ignore.

Please put me back on.
2013-02-18 03:59:47 PM
1 votes:

tenpoundsofcheese: Lionel Mandrake: People still believe that crap?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Look!!  A single anecdote that proves anyone from anywhere has an equal chance of achieving anything as everyone else!!

Yes, it demonstrates that it is possible to succeed. You are pathetic if you believe that that is the only success story. Herman Cain laughs at you.


So why aren't you a millionaire?
2013-02-18 03:44:00 PM
1 votes:

slayer199: Of course, nobody wants to point the finger where it belongs...the massive growth of government from taxation, regulation, and redistribution of wealth...beginning with FDR.


But you're not a republican, right?

/Fark Independent, apparently.
2013-02-18 03:39:48 PM
1 votes:

Philip Francis Queeg: slayer199: zedster: right, let's forget the robber barons and gilded age

And forget that people had more upward mobility back then as opposed to now.

Citation Needed.


The opportunities were plentiful to all those 10 years working in coal mines. They could grow up to be a destitute 25 year old dying of black lung or a destitute 32 year old dying of black lung. The possibilities were limitless.
2013-02-18 03:30:45 PM
1 votes:
People still believe that crap?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


Look!!  A single anecdote that proves anyone from anywhere has an equal chance of achieving anything as everyone else!!
2013-02-18 02:18:57 PM
1 votes:
Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.
 
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