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(The New York Times)   The myth of America as the land of opportunity is busted by some Nobel winner   (opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com) divider line 368
    More: Sad, Nobel Laureates, Ayn Rand, equality of opportunity, environmental hazards, second inaugural address, Alan Krueger, achievement gap, Stiglitz  
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8207 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Feb 2013 at 3:31 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-18 05:23:27 PM  

Giltric: namatad: zedster: slayer199: zedster: right, let's forget the robber barons and gilded age

And forget that people had more upward mobility back then as opposed to now.

Maybe, but you are skipping some data points here, let's skip the 1800s and move to post-WWII. The middle class grew during the 1950s and continued into the 70s, then it started to crash down a bit. Why?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 615x447]
Source

this is all about the reagan royalty revolution. Until we undo that, we will continue to wallow.
bring back the death taxes. bring back cap gain taxes. bring back (implement) wealth taxes. reinstate glass-steagall.

these efforts would have little to zero impact on 99%

oh wait, the 1% decide what will happen.
nevermind

How will taking from them build you up?
Why bring someone else down to make you feel more equal?


Seriously?

Do you not understand how governments work? Lower taxes on the people who can't pay, raise taxes on the people who can, and tada no more deficit.
 
2013-02-18 05:24:48 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: I'm sure he did it all on his own, with no assistance from any government entity, right?


Did government single him out and build special roads bridges and schools just for him?
 
2013-02-18 05:26:53 PM  

Saiga410: Mike Chewbacca: So yes, the upper class needs to be torn down a few notches, and with that tearing down we can shore up the rest of us.

Sooo much Palin word salad. Poe?


Did I miss all those Sarah Palin speeches in which she discussed the virtues of taxing the shiat out of the wealthy?
 
2013-02-18 05:27:04 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: We have long, long way to go.


I have to know. What does the finish line look like? When do you sit back and say "we have reached the promised land"?

Lionel Mandrake: "That crap" meaning (the myth of) Equal Opportunity


warning: here comes a politician's apology.

If you mean "Equal Opportunity" as someone has to have equal opportunity to every single job and position in this country than you're absolutely right. It is crap. If however you mean that it is crap that everyone has an equal opportunity for success then I think you're wrong.

If your definition is the first one than I am sorry for taking up your time. I thought you were saying that it was crap that people could become a success in America. Please forgive me for this good natured mistake.
 
2013-02-18 05:27:13 PM  
I haven't looked at the prices in a while but when my son was first starting college, I tried to get him to move to Norway. There was no tuition to go to the universities there (I think there's still a 300 and up to something like 700 NOK semester fee - which I think is $50 something for 300 NOK to $100 something USD for the higher amount - but still no tuition) no matter what country you're from originally. That semester fee pays for itself in discounts on public transportation and a student health clinic if you have medical issues, among a host of other things. I do know you aren't eligible for cash aid from the gubermint if you're one of those poors (like me), so you'll still need to be able to prove you're able to pay your rent and feed yourself. (Everyone in my family except for the five of us are in Norway, so he'd not have to worry about that, either. He could have stayed with relatives.) Luckily though, there are scholarships you're eligible for no matter in which country you were born. The rest of Scandinavia charges a little bit, but only for foreign students. If you're from an EU country (or Switzerland) or are an exchange student, there's still no charge.

Why oh why can't people in the US realize this kind of thing would benefit all of us in the long run? Bite the bullet, so to speak, make higher education an attainable, cheap goal and for those we know aren't college material, do just as Obama said at the end of his SOTU speech - make sure they're trained and ready to work when they finish high school. Some of us have been saying that for years now and pointing out that's a common strategy throughout Europe. How incredibly shortsighted is it to not focus more on REAL skills, especially marketable skills, and make sure the little darlings are employable right out of the gate, whether they're going on for higher learning or not?

Why can't we put more money into education here, even if it does mean a tax increase? I don't understand this slow suicide the US seems hell bent on committing. I'd be highly uncomfortable relying completely on this generation to care for me long term if something were to happen to me or I somehow, miraculously, make it to a ripe old age and there is no family that can care for me, necessitating my placement in a care facility. We should be putting more money into our own country's infrastructure, including education. After all, if your house is falling apart, you repair it and repairs cost money. You've got to pay that money, even if you don't want to do so, if you want that house to be there for you in the future.

At the rate we're going as a nation, we're not going to have much of a house left. We have a lot of problems in the US, ranging from a crumbling infrastructure to poor education, lack of decent, affordable health care and all points in between, it seems. Nearly everyone I've heard talking about this sort of thing says they want these problems fixed, but no one wants to help pay for it or otherwise make it happen. It's a little scary to me to even imagine how much further we're going to have to fall before attitudes change. Growing up, I kept hearing how the US was the Richie-richiest and bestest country EVAR, so of course I never thought we'd allow our country to fall this far for the benefit of the few. Man, was I ever wrong.
Great, now I haz a sad. Well, the old lay-deez are gone so I guess I can drown my sorrows in a couple snaps of akvavit and a chocolate chip cookie or two. Anyone else want some? It's Aalborg akvavit and I used Alton Brown's "Big Softie" recipe for the cookies...
 
2013-02-18 05:27:24 PM  
i48.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-18 05:27:51 PM  

o5iiawah: The wealthy can only do that if they ingratiate themselves with government. your beef, Occupy's beef, the Progressive agenda....

All of it should be directed towards Washington, DC.

Thanks to the tax code they write, GE and facebook pays no taxes and GETS billions back whilst a schlub earning $50,000 in a factory probably pays $14,000 and is just happy to get a couple hundred bucks back in middle February. Thanks to the laws they write, companies escape prosecution when they commit fraud. Thanks to government, it is easier to get rich investing in congressmen and lobbying than in R&D for a product. Who needs the market to buy your products when you can convince government to do it? What is easier, making a product that 309,000,000 people might want or making a product that a few people in Washington can order 309,000,000 people to pay for?


Wealth is social power. It has always been power. It will always be power. The rich will always attempt to extract privilege for themselves, because that is what humans do with power. Yes, there will be far-seeing individuals who do otherwise, but they will never be the majority as long as humans remain humans. The only way to oppose power is with power. At the most basic levels, what other forms of power are there?

There are two options: violence or law. The club or the gavel. Either the people who object to this self-serving behaviour kill the wealthy to curb their excesses, or they make rules to curb their excesses and force them to comply by threat of sanction of some kind.

The former happens when people rise up and say enough, and kill the wealthy and take what they have. All other things being equal, that's bad. It's the worst possible solution. It is brutal and unjust and leads to misery and poverty and atrocities done to one and all, because it is rarely if ever applied in any kind of controlled or rational fashion once it gets started. The French Revolution is the classic example, but hardly the only one.

Law is when the member of society agree together that a certain behaviour will be allowed or not, and variations on that idea with greater and greater complexity. The other word for it is government. The whole point of a representative system of government is that the people are the ones who are ultimately supposed to hold the power. The actual government actors are supposed to be their representatives, in that they represent the will of the collective of individuals who make up the nation.

And the government is not beholden to wealth - at least in theory. Continued of government does not directly depend on solvency, although obviously the lack thereof is a big problem.

Now, the wealthy in general do not get wealthy by being stupid or complacent. They generally understand that government is the only social actor that can seriously challenge their acquisition of further wealth and power. And so they seek to co-opt the representatives of government and the mechanisms of government to their own use, which is what you are complaining about. And that's true - but it is also incomplete. Because it still remains that government is the only powerful social actor that is directly beholden to the people, and which has the power to oppose the natural human tendency of the wealthy to seek power and privilege for them and theirs.

Because they will also seek to disenfranchise the population by alienating them from government. By presenting the government as other and untrustworthy, ruled by elites and unresponsive to the common man. They will tell you that the government is the problem. This is only true to the extent that the wealthy have made it so by co-opting it and disrupting the political will of the general population. Because the people can always take back the government - IF they are informed. IF they understand what the real issues are. IF they can coordinate their individual social actions into a collective political action.

So when you say government is the problem, instead of enjoining governement actors to remember who they are actually supposed to be beholden to and take action, you are part of the problem. When you encourage isolationist individualism, you are part of the problem. When you cheer corporate America and distrust government, you are part of the problem. Make no mistake, the Tea Party had the support of powerful right wing corporate backers precisely because it was perfect for defusing and redirecting the social anger over inequality of opportunity into something that they could use to further strengthen their position at the expense of society at large. Conversely, OWS faced the conundrum that the very disorganized nature that made it impossible to coopt also made it nearly impossible to transform into effective political action, and easy to slander and parody in the corporate press.

It never fails to boggle my mind why so many conservatives would prefer to let corporations whose only goal is increasing the wealth of their shareholders run free to do as they please in the name of maximum possible profit rather than seeing them leashed and limited by the actions of a governement that in the end is supposed to be "by the people, for the people". Do they really think those corporations will be good corporate citizens just because?
 
2013-02-18 05:28:21 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lionel Mandrake: Does she have "the same chance" as little Georgie Bush? F*CK NO.

does she have the same chance to become President as a Bush? No. You're right about that. But she does have an equal chance of success. There has never been nor will there ever be a society were everyone is completely likely to gain access to the halls of power. But one persons definition of success isn't the same as the other. Not everyone is working become the POTUS.

And if we do fill her head with dreams what's the worst case scenario? She only goes to a good college and not an Ivy League?! She only make the state congress and not the federal?!


How 'bout we fill her mind with ease using decent healthcare.

If people could just afford health and dental, that's 99% of worries off the table.
 
2013-02-18 05:30:19 PM  

doglover: How 'bout we fill her mind with ease using decent healthcare.

If people could just afford health and dental, that's 99% of worries off the table.



You don't think that food and shelter add up to more than 1%?
 
2013-02-18 05:30:23 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: We have long, long way to go.

I have to know. What does the finish line look like? When do you sit back and say "we have reached the promised land"?


There isn't a finish line. Humans are imperfect. We always find a way to fark others over. The battle against that is eternal.

Are you honestly saying that you believe we have reached the finish line and are sitting in the promised land?
 
2013-02-18 05:32:08 PM  

o5iiawah: Philip Francis Queeg: Translation: I got mine, Fark you!

Translation: " I started with nothing, and have some now why cant you do the same and get yours"


Translation: I need to blame my failures on Obama
 
2013-02-18 05:33:48 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: If we don't believe it it can never be.


So let's just believe and ignore making societal changes that improve the odds.
 
2013-02-18 05:34:13 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: o5iiawah: Philip Francis Queeg: Translation: I got mine, Fark you!

Translation: " I started with nothing, and have some now why cant you do the same and get yours"

Translation: I need to blame my failures on Obama


Well the party of personal responsibility can't start actually being personally responsible for things... That would be hard.
 
2013-02-18 05:35:46 PM  

MontanaDave: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Obama attended: Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School. He taught at the University of Chicago Law School. Yale was not part of his educational background.


That poor black chile is Mr. Slick Wille Clinton.
 
2013-02-18 05:38:04 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Translation: I need to blame my failures on Obama


Also:
 
2013-02-18 05:39:12 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: o5iiawah: Philip Francis Queeg: Translation: I got mine, Fark you!

Translation: " I started with nothing, and have some now why cant you do the same and get yours"

Translation: I need to blame my failures on Obama

Well the party of personal responsibility can't start actually being personally responsible for things... That would be hard.


And all their failures are because of how their message is perceived, not the message.
 
2013-02-18 05:39:53 PM  

Doktor_Zhivago: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: Translation: I need to blame my failures on Obama

Also:


Gif fail.. *commits seppuku in shame*
 
2013-02-18 05:42:58 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus:  If we don't believe it it can never be.


Just believing isn't enough - we have to clap our hands!

Or, you know...enact policies that bring down some barriers and throw out the policies that put other barriers in place.
 
2013-02-18 05:44:39 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


I really doubt that could happen in other western nations. Not in the UK and certainly not in Australia where the media are constantly prattling on about the 'unique' Australian attributes of 'a fair go for all', 'mateship'  (that's loyalty to one's friends) and egalitarianism. Australia has a female Prime Minister but I can't see a member of racial minority being elected as Prime Minister anytime soon.

An African American being elected president of the USA just 4 decades after the end of segregation sets the US apart from other nations.
 
2013-02-18 05:46:11 PM  

KiltedBastich: There are two options: violence or law. The club or the gavel. Either the people who object to this self-serving behaviour kill the wealthy to curb their excesses, or they make rules to curb their excesses and force them to comply by threat of sanction of some kind.


The rich seem to be hell bent on getting themselves strung up. The class war we aren't supposed to talk about has been raging for more than thirty years. Guess which side is winning.
 
2013-02-18 05:46:20 PM  

slayer199: Of course, nobody wants to point the finger where it belongs...the massive growth of government from taxation, regulation, and redistribution of wealth...beginning with FDR.


Can you explain this further? How do these things perpetuate inequality?
 
2013-02-18 05:46:24 PM  

kg2095: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

I really doubt that could happen in other western nations. Not in the UK and certainly not in Australia where the media are constantly prattling on about the 'unique' Australian attributes of 'a fair go for all', 'mateship'  (that's loyalty to one's friends) and egalitarianism. Australia has a female Prime Minister but I can't see a member of racial minority being elected as Prime Minister anytime soon.

An African American being elected president of the USA just 4 decades after the end of segregation sets the US apart from other nations.


i.telegraph.co.uk
 
2013-02-18 05:46:44 PM  

KiltedBastich: They generally understand that government is the only social actor that can seriously challenge their acquisition of further wealth and power. And so they seek to co-opt the representatives of government and the mechanisms of government to their own use, which is what you are complaining about.


That is not what I am complaining about.  Re-read everything I have written.

The market can seriously challenge the acquisition of further wealth and power so they will use government, acting outside of its authority, to protect it.  The market though, is the aggregate of hundreds of millions of people acting in their own best interests.  They are a lot harder to placate than a few dozen people on a banking committee.

KiltedBastich: Because it still remains that government is the only powerful social actor that is directly beholden to the people, and which has the power to oppose the natural human tendency of the wealthy to seek power and privilege for them and theirs.


And again, we have a government which was established to protect individual rights, establish a system of uniform commerce among the states, protect property, mediate contracts and settle bankruptcies.  You and I arent arguing on this point but for the fact that government DOESN'T DO IT.

KiltedBastich: So when you say government is the problem


Again, I havent.  Just government overreaching or neglecting its enumerated authority.

KiltedBastich: It never fails to boggle my mind why so many conservatives would prefer to let corporations whose only goal is increasing the wealth of their shareholders run free to do as they please in the name of maximum possible profit rather than seeing them leashed and limited by the actions of a governement that in the end is supposed to be "by the people, for the people". Do they really think those corporations will be good corporate citizens just because?


The whole reason we have government to begin with is to protect what we have and ensure that a few bad actors dont ruin things for everyone.  We need rules for individuals, so we make local laws.  We hold those who administer those laws accountable.  We have state laws and elect people to execute those laws with means of holding them accountable.  We have federal laws and elect people to execute laws, placing limits on their authority and holding them accountable.  There's anaccountability mechanism in place for every element of government because government owns an exclusive monopoly on force.

Wal-Mart cannot kick your door in at 4am.  Wal-Mart will never judge your fate in court.  Wal-Mart will never be able to send you to war.  Only government can and so there's a reason we hold them extra accountable. I can choose not to shop at Wal-Mart. I can choose not to work for Wal-Mart.   Wal-Mart has personally done nothing to me and never can unless I willingly on my own accord choose to enter their business and if an agent of Wal-Mart harms me in any way, we have government to settle the dispute.

Nobody can hurt you (without penalty) rich or poor unless the government allows it.
 
2013-02-18 05:48:42 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: There isn't a finish line. Humans are imperfect. We always find a way to fark others over. The battle against that is eternal.

Are you honestly saying that you believe we have reached the finish line and are sitting in the promised land?




No! Never said we were there! Never. I said we have the systems in place to get there. We have laws protecting everyone no matter their sex, race or sexual preferences. We have systems in place that grant access to school based on the special circumstances that an individual faces. And we have enough of any given ethnicity in the upper income brackets to insure they could give back to their community. All and all we are well on the path and only need people to catch up and the bigots to die off.

By admitting you don't have an endgame in mind you can not tell me that we have "a long long long" way to go. You have no idea how far we have to go. I say it's right around the corner! 3 to 4 generations at the most. Look how far we have come in just two!
 
2013-02-18 05:49:47 PM  
To be fair, any kind of American (not just African-) is unlikely to be elected to preside in another country.
 
2013-02-18 05:50:02 PM  

slayer199: Of course, nobody wants to point the finger where it belongs...the massive growth of government from taxation, regulation, and redistribution of wealth...beginning with FDR.


St. Reagan voted for FDR all four times...which might explain why he increased spending way beyond anything FDR could have imagined.

http://www.firstprinciplesjournal.com/articles.aspx?article=1082
 
2013-02-18 05:52:41 PM  

Bonzo_1116: MontanaDave: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

Obama attended: Occidental College, Columbia University and Harvard Law School. He taught at the University of Chicago Law School. Yale was not part of his educational background.

That poor black chile is Mr. Slick Wille Clinton.


I guess Clinton is so slick no one knew about his state and federal legislative career.
 
2013-02-18 05:53:28 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: Lost Thought 00: We built this country on the back of slavery and indentured servants, up until WW1 and 2 made that system impractical.

Your timeline is just a tad off.


The last company towns shut down in 1920. That was just the loophole corporations found in the abolishment of slavery
 
2013-02-18 05:53:56 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: We have laws protecting everyone no matter their sex, race or sexual preferences.


No we don't. You might have heard of a Law called DOMA, for one example.

The Stealth Hippopotamus:
By admitting you don't have an endgame in mind you can not tell me that we have "a long long long" way to go. You have no idea how far we have to go. I say it's right around the corner! 3 to 4 generations at the most. Look how far we have come in just two!

I'm sorry that is just pathetically naive. But even if we accept that, do you think that sitting back and congratulating ourselves is going to bring about utopia in a few generations? Is your complacency doing anything to improve the lives of others? Is your hubris not an actual impediment to progress?
 
2013-02-18 05:54:05 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: Or, you know...enact policies that bring down some barriers and throw out the policies that put other barriers in place.


And policies would you enact and what policies would get the axe from President rufus-t-firely?
 
2013-02-18 05:55:07 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Look how far we have come in just two!


I think the two most recent generations of adults, having taken the recession on the chin, think we still have quite a ways to go. They're the ones being told to work harder, longer, and for less by the generations before who didn't have to.
 
2013-02-18 05:55:29 PM  

kg2095: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.

I really doubt that could happen in other western nations. Not in the UK and certainly not in Australia where the media are constantly prattling on about the 'unique' Australian attributes of 'a fair go for all', 'mateship'  (that's loyalty to one's friends) and egalitarianism. Australia has a female Prime Minister but I can't see a member of racial minority being elected as Prime Minister anytime soon.

An African American being elected president of the USA just 4 decades after the end of segregation sets the US apart from other nations.


And yet we can't even put a woman in as VP, much less president, a mere 90 years after women received the right to vote. And despite a record number of women in Congress, we still only have 101 female congresspeople, out of 535. That's less than 19%, in a country with 50.8% females.
 
2013-02-18 05:55:29 PM  

Nadie_AZ: The Pew Research Center has found that some 90 percent of Americans believe that the government should do everything it can to ensure equality of opportunity.

I read this, and I am not sure I can believe it. If it were true, then the GOP would be a far more progressive party than it is. Same with the Dems.


...they would be, if 90% mattered more than 1%.
 
2013-02-18 05:57:12 PM  

Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: we just don't think that people should starve because they've made mistakes, had bad luck, or acted stupidly.



At what point does a person f*ck up enough where you say "enough is enough"?

Do you really want a consequence-free utopia?
 
2013-02-18 05:57:12 PM  
Reading this right now:

2.bp.blogspot.com

Getting a kick, etc.
 
2013-02-18 05:59:48 PM  

The_Sponge: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: we just don't think that people should starve because they've made mistakes, had bad luck, or acted stupidly.


At what point does a person f*ck up enough where you say "enough is enough"?

Do you really want a consequence-free utopia?


At what point should we let your children starve to death?
 
2013-02-18 06:02:19 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: rufus-t-firefly: Or, you know...enact policies that bring down some barriers and throw out the policies that put other barriers in place.

And policies would you enact and what policies would get the axe from President rufus-t-firely?


The last man nearly ruined this place, he didn't know what to do with it/If you think this country's bad off now, just wait 'til rufus gets through with it."
 
2013-02-18 06:04:04 PM  

Saiga410: Philip Francis Queeg: o5iiawah: Philip Francis Queeg: Translation: I got mine, Fark you!

Translation: " I started with nothing, and have some now why cant you do the same and get yours"

I'm sure he did it all on his own, with no assistance from any government entity, right?

Oh I am sure he had some assistance from the govt but it is the same assistance that the govt gives to everyone.


So many people purposely miss this point.
"But, but, but his business never would have been successful without roads!"
"ehhh, other people have roads going to their failing businesses"
 
2013-02-18 06:04:12 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: At what point should we let your children starve to death?


After they're born, duh.

/I keed
 
2013-02-18 06:08:39 PM  

The_Sponge: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: we just don't think that people should starve because they've made mistakes, had bad luck, or acted stupidly.


At what point does a person f*ck up enough where you say "enough is enough"?

Do you really want a consequence-free utopia?


When they begin reducing other people's arguments down to something they can manage to easily defeat by declaring them slippery slopes into hell. That's when I say enough is enough. Get in the box.
 
2013-02-18 06:08:46 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: "But, but, but his business never would have been successful without roads!"


Or tax credits for their particular business.

Government didn't help those businesses one bit!
 
2013-02-18 06:08:48 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: So many people purposely miss this point.
"But, but, but his business never would have been successful without roads!"
"ehhh, other people have roads going to their failing businesses"


How many businesses would there be with no roads at all?
 
2013-02-18 06:09:12 PM  

Heresiarch: At what point does it become a problem? If you take the poorest of the poor, and they have less than a 10% shot of being able to get to middle-class, is that a problem? Where would you define the thresholds of probability for inter-generational income mobility such that below those numbers, there might be an issue? Further, how would you go about solving that issue?


Tax cuts for job creators and banning abortion.
 
2013-02-18 06:10:08 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: No we don't. You might have heard of a Law called DOMA, for one example.


you've never heard of Federal Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) Laws? the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Americans with Disability Act of 1990? Older Workers Benefit Protection Act? Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (1994)? Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994? I could go on but I think I've proven my point.

Philip Francis Queeg: I'm sorry that is just pathetically naive. But even if we accept that, do you think that sitting back and congratulating ourselves is going to bring about utopia in a few generations?


Silly. You cant sit back. You have to enforce the laws on the books. You have to police the systems. and when the time comes you have to remove some of the systems. It's work. It's hard work. But getting the system in place was the harder work. It was the blood and guts, the water cannon and police dogs work. It was the get beaten to death for specking up work. The system is on rails now. We just have to keep it on the tracks.

Philip Francis Queeg: Is your complacency doing anything to improve the lives of others?


Would forcing unnecessary rules and regulations improve anyone lives? You can take it too far and make people believe that the systems are unfairly stacked in the other direction. Would that help? Create another generation that sees our differences first and the person second? Would that help?

Philip Francis Queeg: Is your hubris not an actual impediment to progress?


I think I've answered that but let me put it another way. The hard work was done by better men than we. They've laid the ground work that we just need to follow.
 
2013-02-18 06:11:01 PM  

The_Sponge: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: we just don't think that people should starve because they've made mistakes, had bad luck, or acted stupidly.


At what point does a person f*ck up enough where you say "enough is enough"?

Do you really want a consequence-free utopia?


No just starvation free.
 
2013-02-18 06:11:44 PM  

kg2095: An African American being elected president of the USA just 4 decades after the end of segregation sets the US apart from other nations.


He is half Kenyan - half Caucasian. Not that is really matters. What he isn't is a child of the African American slave experience.
 
2013-02-18 06:15:44 PM  

Philip Francis Queeg: The_Sponge: Duke Phillips' Singing Bears: we just don't think that people should starve because they've made mistakes, had bad luck, or acted stupidly.


At what point does a person f*ck up enough where you say "enough is enough"?

Do you really want a consequence-free utopia?

At what point should we let your children starve to death?


If you get to them before they get too thin, they will make for better pie filling.  Skinny children need to be stewed longer.  Better you should take that burden from him now.
 
2013-02-18 06:16:14 PM  

Harry_Seldon: kg2095: An African American being elected president of the USA just 4 decades after the end of segregation sets the US apart from other nations.

He is half Kenyan - half Caucasian. Not that is really matters. What he isn't is a child of the African American slave experience.


Yes, I know many people certainly make that distinction before they do/say something racist.
 
2013-02-18 06:16:22 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


Someone wins the Powerball jackpot more often than your example of "opportunity" occurs.
 
2013-02-18 06:16:27 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: No we don't. You might have heard of a Law called DOMA, for one example.

you've never heard of Federal Equal Employment Opportunity (EEO) Laws? the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Americans with Disability Act of 1990? Older Workers Benefit Protection Act? Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act (1994)? Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994? I could go on but I think I've proven my point.



So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: The hard work was done by better men than we.


Better men than you. There is still much hard work to do. It's clear that you simply are not up to helping. Perhaps we are better off if you just sit on the sidelines in a self congratulatory haze while others continue the labor improving the world your children, grandchildren, and future generation will live in.
 
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