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(The New York Times)   The myth of America as the land of opportunity is busted by some Nobel winner   (opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com) divider line 368
    More: Sad, Nobel Laureates, Ayn Rand, equality of opportunity, environmental hazards, second inaugural address, Alan Krueger, achievement gap, Stiglitz  
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8199 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Feb 2013 at 3:31 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-18 06:17:09 PM

Somacandra: GoldSpider: Well-played, sir.

Ahh, thank you. Haven't seen you around in awhile. Nice to see you back. :-)


Oh I'm around!  Just not as much during the day at the new job.
 
2013-02-18 06:21:51 PM
I don't understand why so many people respond to tenpoundsofderp and Hungry Ugly Hippos.

They both are so completely predictable that most of us could answer for them and be pretty close to exactly what they would say. I have never seen either of them offer anything new to any discussion, just the standard talking point and then repeat.
 
2013-02-18 06:23:09 PM

jst3p: I don't understand why so many people respond to tenpoundsofderp and Hungry Ugly Hippos.

They both are so completely predictable that most of us could answer for them and be pretty close to exactly what they would say. I have never seen either of them offer anything new to any discussion, just the standard talking point and then repeat.


It makes me feel smart
 
2013-02-18 06:24:13 PM
Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.
 
2013-02-18 06:26:24 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?



That's getting fixed if you haven't noticed. I haven't seen the police dogs released lately.


Philip Francis Queeg: Better men than you.


ego much?! You're comparing yourself with a black soldier that kicked off his chains and picked up a rifle to defend the union?! You're comparing yourself to couple that watch their house burned because they had the guts to love someone of a different skin color. You're comparing yourself to someone who had their flesh ripped off their bodies by a water hose because they wanted to eat a lunch counter.

You're so full of yourself it is actually stunning. It's not often that I'm speechless but damn you've done it.
 
2013-02-18 06:27:11 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Would forcing unnecessary rules and regulations improve anyone lives?


Yes, because history teaches us that it did improve the lives of many.
After the Depression of the 1930s we learned how important it was to protect society from the self-interest of capitalism.
Not only did we make rules we enforced them.
And our society flourished during a period of stringent rules/regulations.
 
2013-02-18 06:29:37 PM

Flargan: Yes, because history teaches us that it did improve the lives of many.
After the Depression of the 1930s we learned how important it was to protect society from the self-interest of capitalism.
Not only did we make rules we enforced them.
And our society flourished during a period of stringent rules/regulations.



Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?
 
2013-02-18 06:30:38 PM
I know a guy who buys medical centers, then rents them out to doctors/dentists etc...
He truly believes everyone has equal opportunity, if only people were just as bootstrapy and smart and hard working as he is.
The fact that his parents gave him millions, interest free, in order to buy medical centers, to then rent them out to practitioners and sit back and watch the cash flow in each month?
Irrelevant.
/he votes republican
 
2013-02-18 06:31:40 PM

sheep snorter: Poor people earning over 180,000 bucks a year.
disclaimer: this graphic is from some douche who wants you to think that the black folk on it don't pay taxes.


[i.imgur.com image 614x408]


Everyone in this graph looks sad. If I made as much money as these people, I'd have a permanent shiateating grin on my face..
 
2013-02-18 06:32:16 PM

moefuggenbrew: I know a guy who buys medical centers, then rents them out to doctors/dentists etc...
He truly believes everyone has equal opportunity, if only people were just as bootstrapy and smart and hard working as he is.
The fact that his parents gave him millions, interest free, in order to buy medical centers, to then rent them out to practitioners and sit back and watch the cash flow in each month?
Irrelevant.
/he votes republican


Those born on third base often believe they hit a triple.
 
2013-02-18 06:33:44 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?


That's getting fixed if you haven't noticed. I haven't seen the police dogs released lately.


Philip Francis Queeg: Better men than you.

ego much?! You're comparing yourself with a black soldier that kicked off his chains and picked up a rifle to defend the union?! You're comparing yourself to couple that watch their house burned because they had the guts to love someone of a different skin color. You're comparing yourself to someone who had their flesh ripped off their bodies by a water hose because they wanted to eat a lunch counter.

You're so full of yourself it is actually stunning. It's not often that I'm speechless but damn you've done it.


static3.businessinsider.com i.i.com.com
All better people than you.
 
2013-02-18 06:33:45 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?


More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.
 
2013-02-18 06:34:46 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Flargan: Yes, because history teaches us that it did improve the lives of many.
After the Depression of the 1930s we learned how important it was to protect society from the self-interest of capitalism.
Not only did we make rules we enforced them.
And our society flourished during a period of stringent rules/regulations.


Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?


Yes, we CAN overregulate something. But that's not what the problem is today. Funny how the world's economy was crashed by investment bankers meddling with the mortgage market less than ten years after the repeal of Glass-Steagal made that possible. Funny.
 
2013-02-18 06:39:38 PM

KiltedBastich: Because "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche!" worked out so well for this lady:


She never said it.
 
2013-02-18 06:42:06 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Won't you admit that you can over regulate something?


Germany has far more regulations than the US does and just looking at the numbers, things are better for people there than in the US.
 
2013-02-18 06:47:27 PM
o5iiawah (farkied: Right-wing wharrgarbler with a wharrgarbl name): Could it be that many latinos find themselves on the lower end of the wage scale because a large percentage are first-generation immigrant, are ESOL, or have not had generations of access to public school and higher education systems?

Hey waitafugginminute.  Public schools are evul gubmint programs full of Union Thugs zOMG SOOOOCIALISM!
 
2013-02-18 06:51:24 PM
So, can we please go kill the rich now?
 
2013-02-18 06:53:12 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


That was before Reagan became President. No chance in Hell for any other kid in poverty to have a hope of improvement now.
 
2013-02-18 06:54:38 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Flargan: Yes, because history teaches us that it did improve the lives of many.
After the Depression of the 1930s we learned how important it was to protect society from the self-interest of capitalism.
Not only did we make rules we enforced them.
And our society flourished during a period of stringent rules/regulations.


Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?


Glass-Steagall would like a word with you.
 
2013-02-18 06:56:28 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?


That's getting fixed if you haven't noticed. I haven't seen the police dogs released lately.


Philip Francis Queeg: Better men than you.

ego much?! You're comparing yourself with a black soldier that kicked off his chains and picked up a rifle to defend the union?! You're comparing yourself to couple that watch their house burned because they had the guts to love someone of a different skin color. You're comparing yourself to someone who had their flesh ripped off their bodies by a water hose because they wanted to eat a lunch counter.

You're so full of yourself it is actually stunning. It's not often that I'm speechless but damn you've done it.

 
All better people than you.


So you're trying to prove my point now? White people beating on white people. Like I said before, progress. I've said, we are not there yet.

So you're standing by the idea you're the equal of the persons I listed?!
 
2013-02-18 07:03:26 PM

Saiga410: zedster: slayer199: zedster: . The middle class grew during the 1950s and continued into the 70s, then it started to crash down a bit. Why?

[cdn.theatlantic.com image 615x447]
Source

Water florination or the removal of lead from gasoline.


Disco? Could it be Disco?
 
2013-02-18 07:11:09 PM

Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.


Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.


Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.
 
2013-02-18 07:11:15 PM

o5iiawah: Nobody can hurt you (without penalty) rich or poor unless the government allows it.


Really just interested in discussion here (yea I know this is Fark but what the hey, give it a go neh?)

I have some thoughts on your ideas about Government having a monopoly on force, I have some thoughts and I'd like to see what you think.

There are multiple examples of private security throughout our history, Wackenhutt, The Pinkertons, The De Beers army/ navy, Blackwater, and many, many others. Often they have operated outside of the law acting as thugish agents for those that could pay.

Also,"The Ford Service" a private police force of 3,500 that would not only beat strikers but go to workers homes to make sure the workers were living a sober and American life with the wages they were paid.
 
While they do not go into your home at the present moment, it seems to me that none of these organizations had/have popular checks and balances (voting) placed upon them.  While it could be argued that these organizations, operate under the auspices of government, and violations of the law are punishable by the government, internally they are no different than any other business, yet they wield force.

If the government is corrupt (bought) enough to allow violations of the law by these organizations to abuse power unchecked, who is to blame? The one wielding the nightstick or the one who stands by and watches?  What of the unbridled rise in private security and the declines of the police force we've seen recently?  What if the government is bought enough that it will actually use force on behalf of those who bought it rather than the checks you mention.  What if the government busts down your door on behalf of Walmart at 4 A.M.?
 
2013-02-18 07:12:13 PM
FTA:Finally, it is unconscionable that a rich country like the United States has made access to higher education so difficult for those at the bottom and middle.

We have a surplus of college grads already, we have a surplus of workers in general. The problem is we need more good jobs, not who is getting the jobs.
 
2013-02-18 07:12:39 PM

Real Women Drink Akvavit: Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.

Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.

Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.


I almost brought that up, myself. I lived through those bullshiat rolling blackouts. They were total bullshiat.
 
2013-02-18 07:15:54 PM

Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.


Quoted you earlier and forgot to mention, I'd never heard of the Stiglitz dude before today. Just put one of his books on my wishlist so I remember to buy it next week when I have some spending $$$. I get so many smarty-head book recommendations on Fark! Awesome.
 
2013-02-18 07:18:06 PM
Young people from families of modest means face a Catch-22: without a college education, they are condemned to a life of poor prospects; with a college education, they may be condemned to a lifetime of living at the brink.And increasingly even a college degree isn't enough; one needs either a graduate degree or a series of (often unpaid) internships. Those at the top have the connections and social capital to get those opportunities. Those in the middle and bottom don't. The point is that no one makes it on his or her own. And those at the top get more help from their families than do those lower down on the ladder.Government should help to level the playing field.

Where the fark does that last sentence come from? I agree until he gets there.

(1) The govt wasn't founded for social engineering projects

(2) The govt's track record of "helping" is way less than stellar
 
2013-02-18 07:20:02 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?


That's getting fixed if you haven't noticed. I haven't seen the police dogs released lately.


Philip Francis Queeg: Better men than you.

ego much?! You're comparing yourself with a black soldier that kicked off his chains and picked up a rifle to defend the union?! You're comparing yourself to couple that watch their house burned because they had the guts to love someone of a different skin color. You're comparing yourself to someone who had their flesh ripped off their bodies by a water hose because they wanted to eat a lunch counter.

You're so full of yourself it is actually stunning. It's not often that I'm speechless but damn you've done it.

 
All better people than you.

So you're trying to prove my point now? White people beating on white people. Like I said before, progress. I've said, we are not there yet.

So you're standing by the idea you're the equal of the persons I listed?!


The equal of them? Probably not. Better than you? Most certainly. You don't deserve the benefits of their sacrifices if you are unwilling to lift a finger to conmtinue to fight injustice. Complacency is as much the enemy of priogress as oppression.
 
2013-02-18 07:20:08 PM

iawai: Where the fark does that last sentence come from? I agree until he gets there.


What is your better solution?
 
2013-02-18 07:20:35 PM

Zombie Butler: If the government is corrupt (bought) enough to allow violations of the law by these organizations to abuse power unchecked, who is to blame? The one wielding the nightstick or the one who stands by and watches?  What of the unbridled rise in private security and the declines of the police force we've seen recently?  What if the government is bought enough that it will actually use force on behalf of those who bought it rather than the checks you mention.  What if the government busts down your door on behalf of Walmart at 4 A.M.?


The media will ignore it, he'll get called names by lots of "freedom-loving" types for daring to stand in Wal-Mart's way, and he'll end up rotting in prison, with a big stack of legal bills to pay or both, just like has happened to so many other people that have gotten the business end of this particular stick already...

Of course, in Dan-O's case here he'd probably say he deserved it because the capitalists are perfect beings of light.
 
2013-02-18 07:22:37 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: iawai: Where the fark does that last sentence come from? I agree until he gets there.

What is your better solution?


I'm guessing it's that everyone who isn't rich can eat shiat, but the government should continue to provide police and road work and all of those other things rich people need, so they can have caviar instead.
 
2013-02-18 07:23:53 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Poor black kid from a unstable home grows up to graduate Yale get elected to state congress than federal and then becomes a two term President.

Yeah the dream is dead.


q couple of things. his home was not unstable. his mother (PhD) and father were  college graduates. His father also went to Harvard. And while his father wasn't around he didn't come from illiterate ghetto crackheads or alcoholic hillbillies. he went to private prep schools. he traveled the world. he was tutored by his mother. He started college  in the pre-Reagan days. before the conservative movement gutted the middle class and made it harder for upward mobility.
 
2013-02-18 07:24:05 PM

WhyteRaven74: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Won't you admit that you can over regulate something?

Germany has far more regulations than the US does and just looking at the numbers, things are better for people there than in the US.


well, they work harder, so they can have nice things
 
2013-02-18 07:25:11 PM

DrewCurtisJr: FTA:Finally, it is unconscionable that a rich country like the United States has made access to higher education so difficult for those at the bottom and middle.

We have a surplus of college grads already, we have a surplus of workers in general. The problem is we need more good jobs, not who is getting the jobs.


That's not what he meant. University is now significantly more expensive than it was even ten years ago. This means kids leaving college at 22 years old are saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in debt before they even get their lives started. University should be cheaper so our young people don't start off already in the hole.
 
2013-02-18 07:25:39 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Real Women Drink Akvavit: Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.

Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.

Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.

I almost brought that up, myself. I lived through those bullshiat rolling blackouts. They were total bullshiat.


Tell me about it, if you want to angry up your blood go watch this documentary Enron-the smartest guys in the room my favorite part was when they were laughing about jacking up our rates.
 
2013-02-18 07:26:56 PM

theknuckler_33: According to research from the Brookings Institution, only 58 percent of Americans born into the bottom fifth of income earners move out of that category

I was actually surprised the number was that high... and I'm trying to figure out what being surprised by that says about me.


Moving into the second fifth means you're still poor. Mobility doesn't mean much if the curve is flat. One of the ways economists look at mobility is by analyzing the correlation in incomes between generations. Some studies have suggested that as much as 80% of a random person's income is explained by the income of his parents. That's an absurdly high number, but it leaves a lot of room for movement around the underclass. Just not so much room for movement out of the underclass, which is really the point of opportunity.
 
2013-02-18 07:30:00 PM

Zombie Butler: Mike Chewbacca: Real Women Drink Akvavit: Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.

Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.

Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.

I almost brought that up, myself. I lived through those bullshiat rolling blackouts. They were total bullshiat.

Tell me about it, if you want to angry up your blood go watch this documentary Enron-the smartest guys in the room my favorite part was when they were laughing about jacking up our rates.


I have avoided that documentary because I don't want to get pissed off.
 
2013-02-18 07:34:09 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Zombie Butler: Mike Chewbacca: Real Women Drink Akvavit: Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.

Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.

Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.

I almost brought that up, myself. I lived through those bullshiat rolling blackouts. They were total bullshiat.

Tell me about it, if you want to angry up your blood go watch this documentary Enron-the smartest guys in the room my favorite part was when they were laughing about jacking up our rates.

I have avoided that documentary because I don't want to get pissed off.


I mean more pissed off than I already am.
 
2013-02-18 07:35:18 PM
There's just as much opportunity as there was 40 years ago, but 3 times as many people pursuing it.
 
2013-02-18 07:36:15 PM
www.reputation.com
 
2013-02-18 07:42:00 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Mike Chewbacca: Zombie Butler:
Tell me about it, if you want to angry up your blood go watch this documentary Enron-the smartest guys in the room my favorite part was when they were laughing about jacking up our rates.

I have avoided that documentary because I don't want to get pissed off.

I mean more pissed off than I already am.


Yea, good point.  Seriously made me want to find them and do things that might get me put in one of Wackenhuts prisons.

/my commentary and unfortunately this society have now come full circle, gads what a mess.
 
2013-02-18 07:44:09 PM

Mike Chewbacca: Zombie Butler: Mike Chewbacca: Real Women Drink Akvavit: Snarfangel: Not that anyone cares, but I rather like Stiglitz. If he had a daily column in the Times and Krugman the occasional guest column, I wouldn't complain.

Sergeant Grumbles: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Yes we have those in place. Won't you admit that you can over regulate something? Or are more regulations always the answer?

More regulations are the answer when deregulation was the problem.

Yikes, I can't begin to reiterate how true that is just by pointing to California's rolling blackouts and skyrocketing electricity prices after deregulation.

I almost brought that up, myself. I lived through those bullshiat rolling blackouts. They were total bullshiat.

Tell me about it, if you want to angry up your blood go watch this documentary Enron-the smartest guys in the room my favorite part was when they were laughing about jacking up our rates.

I have avoided that documentary because I don't want to get pissed off.


I think I saw that documentary (there are a few about their shenanigans and their impact) and got incredibly ticked, had to turn it off. To this day I get a twinge of apprehension about riding the light rail. I, along with hundreds of others, was trapped on one during a rolling blackout, during evening rush hour, in 106 weather. Luckily we were somewhere we could just use the emergency handles to open the doors and get out of the trains before anyone fell out. If we had been on the bridge going out of Alkalai Flats toward I-80, it would have been much worse. Still took us probably close to ten minutes before we realized the power wasn't coming back on and we had to get out of there before we cooked to death. I'm sure that elderly lady blowin' chunks from the heat helped motivate us, too.

/that mini-mart half a block away sold out of every cold beverage as fast as they could ring us up
 
2013-02-18 07:44:48 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: The Stealth Hippopotamus: Philip Francis Queeg: So it's ok, to deny same sex couples the equal protections of the law since those laws exist? Is that your point? We can ign
ore all other legal inequalities since we have addressed some?


That's getting fixed if you haven't noticed. I haven't seen the police dogs released lately.


Philip Francis Queeg: Better men than you.

ego much?! You're comparing yourself with a black soldier that kicked off his chains and picked up a rifle to defend the union?! You're comparing yourself to couple that watch their house burned because they had the guts to love someone of a different skin color. You're comparing yourself to someone who had their flesh ripped off their bodies by a water hose because they wanted to eat a lunch counter.

You're so full of yourself it is actually stunning. It's not often that I'm speechless but damn you've done it.

 
All better people than you.

So you're trying to prove my point now? White people beating on white people. Like I said before, progress. I've said, we are not there yet.

So you're standing by the idea you're the equal of the persons I listed?!

The equal of them? Probably not. Better than you? Most certainly. You don't deserve the benefits of their sacrifices if you are unwilling to lift a finger to conmtinue to fight injustice. Complacency is as much the enemy of priogress as oppression.


Wow you're a vicious little thing. Maybe you're right! Maybe we'll never get there. When someone can believe that they are a better human being than some else for the simple fact they disagree about how to best enact social change. We simple disagree about the distance travel and what tools are needed to bring about that change. We agree that change is needed!!

I'm a positive person so I believe that people will come together natural. Given that little outburst I'm thinking you're not a positive person. But you can't force people to get along that is not something the government can do.

I will still be working within the system to do what I think is right. If you think that's nothing I can live with that.

Have a good night. I hope you can let go of some of that anger, that can't be good for you.
 
2013-02-18 07:47:42 PM

moefuggenbrew: I know a guy who buys medical centers, then rents them out to doctors/dentists etc...
He truly believes everyone has equal opportunity, if only people were just as bootstrapy and smart and hard working as he is.
The fact that his parents gave him millions, interest free, in order to buy medical centers, to then rent them out to practitioners and sit back and watch the cash flow in each month?
Irrelevant.
/he votes republican


Up against the wall.
 
2013-02-18 07:49:29 PM

slayer199: Of course, nobody wants to point the finger where it belongs...the massive growth of government from taxation, regulation, and redistribution of wealth...beginning with FDR.


FDR passed the Sherman Anti-Trust Act? The trend towards regulation started in the late 19th century with the rise of Carnegie and Rockefeller.

You know, every time laws get passed that restrict or regulate something, it's usually because a small percentage of the targeted group acted like selfish jerks. I might not be so supportive of, say, public smoking bans, if not for all the times that a jackass smoker responded to my polite request to hold their cigarette a little further away by blowing smoke in my face and saying "fark you, I'll do what I want."

The greedy robber barons have no one to blame but themselves.
 
2013-02-18 07:57:09 PM

ImpendingCynic: FDR passed the Sherman Anti-Trust Act? The trend towards regulation started in the late 19th century with the rise of Carnegie and Rockefeller.


I would say the regulation of industry started, oddly enough, with the growth of massive industry. It's not like we had massive, titanic industries existing for centuries and just randomly decided at one point to start regulating them. Rather, in the second half of the 19th century, some truly monstrously large industries become monopolized and we basically had no choice but to regulate them due to completely lack of competition.
 
2013-02-18 08:02:08 PM

DamnYankees: I would say the regulation of industry started, oddly enough, with the growth of massive industry


Regulations happen when certain people demonstrate themselves either unwilling or incapable of behaving in a way that doesn't screw society at large. At least most do, some happen because certain people realize they can avoid certain things by making things harder for others eg the regulations in various cities restricting food trucks that were put into place because brick and mortar restaurant owners want to dodge as much competition as they can.
 
2013-02-18 08:06:33 PM

Zombie Butler: Also,"The Ford Service" a private police force of 3,500 that would not only beat strikers but go to workers homes to make sure the workers were living a sober and American life with the wages they were paid.

While they do not go into your home at the present moment, it seems to me that none of these organizations had/have popular checks and balances (voting) placed upon them.  While it could be argued that these organizations, operate under the auspices of government, and violations of the law are punishable by the government, internally they are no different than any other business, yet they wield force.

If the government is corrupt (bought) enough to allow violations of the law by these organizations to abuse power unchecked, who is to blame? The one wielding the nightstick or the one who stands by and watches?  What of the unbridled rise in private security and the declines of the police force we've seen recently?  What if the government is bought enough that it will actually use force on behalf of those who bought it rather than the checks you mention.  What if the government busts down your door on behalf of Walmart at 4 A.M.?


Assuming you no longer have the courts on your side, thats why you have the 2nd amendment.  When the government becomes destructive, it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it.

Also, government changes, it is just the Federal government which changes the slowest and wields the most power.  Saying that the small-government, free market system fails because a lower city council can be bought off is to suggest that a federal government can be bought off, which affects a hell of a lot more people.  I'll take the local yokels that I can vote out over the 6-term senate lifers that you cant get rid of.
 
2013-02-18 08:07:07 PM
career opportunities...the ones that never knock
 
2013-02-18 08:15:13 PM

KiltedBastich: Conversely, OWS faced the conundrum that the very disorganized nature that made it impossible to coopt also made it nearly impossible to transform into effective political action, and easy to slander and parody in the corporate press.


OWS actually succeeded to a certain extent. Reagan drops the '47 percent' comment and it gets ranked up there alongside 'There you go again' and 'Tear down this wall.'  Romney drops it and its his campaign's epitaph. And now we've got Senator Warren to boot. The message is getting out there.
 
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