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(Oregon Live)   Republicans choose to spend their political capital by: C) Trying to overturn a school ban on Native American mascots   (oregonlive.com) divider line 139
    More: Silly, Oregon, political capital, Indians, House Republicans  
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1344 clicks; posted to Politics » on 18 Feb 2013 at 6:30 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-18 11:38:06 AM

GoldSpider: RanDomino: A major category of team names is animals. Look at the underlying reasoning.

I always thought a school chose a mascot as a means to self-identify with something worthy of admiration.  You seem to think it is a gesture motivated by contempt.  I can't imagine why you would think that


Hmmmm... Carolina Hurricanes, San Jose Earthquakes, etc.  Yup, named because they are worthy of admiration at the way they kill thousands.
 
2013-02-18 11:41:38 AM

IAmRight: So in the real world, no one really uses it except the Irish.


It's a relatively common nickname here in Australia. Of course, "Australia" and "Casual racism" might as well be synonymous...
 
2013-02-18 11:45:15 AM

Fluorescent Testicle: IAmRight: So in the real world, no one really uses it except the Irish.

It's a relatively common nickname here in Australia. Of course, "Australia" and "Casual racism" might as well be synonymous...


Heh... I guess so.

Didn't an Australian MP recently say that jail is good for Aboriginals because it sobers them up?
 
2013-02-18 11:46:58 AM

keylock71: Spent five years living in Dublin and never once heard the term "Paddy Wagon".


The link provided was from a bus line in Ireland.
 
2013-02-18 11:53:02 AM

Watubi: Hmmmm... Carolina Hurricanes, San Jose Earthquakes, etc. Yup, named because they are worthy of admiration at the way they kill thousands.


Their power is intimidating and worthy of respect, no?
 
2013-02-18 11:58:13 AM

IAmRight: keylock71: Spent five years living in Dublin and never once heard the term "Paddy Wagon".

The link provided was from a bus line in Ireland.


Huh?

Looks like the link is to an online toy and model company based in Australia, but whatever... Like I said, never heard the term used to refer to a Police wagon in Dublin, anyway. Take it or leave it for what it's worth.
 
2013-02-18 11:59:10 AM

Hang On Voltaire: Also have Senators, Cavaliers, Cornhuskers, Sooners, Quakers, Trojans. Spartans, Mountaineers, Boilermakers, Midshipmen, Black Knights, Scarlet Knights, Tar Heels, Rebels, Generals. I can keep going


What's interesting is several of those are pejoratives that got reappropriated by the people they were supposed to describe.

But the difference is that most of the people attending the U. of Nebraska really are cornhuskers (or their descendants) and most of the people attending the U. of Oklahoma really are the descendants of the sooners. The people attending high schools with Native American mascots usually don't have any Native American heritage that they are aware of.
 
2013-02-18 12:04:36 PM

keylock71: Didn't an Australian MP recently say that jail is good for Aboriginals because it sobers them up?


Yeah, but honestly, it's usually not that sort of racism. It's more the "Everyone's a little bit racist" sort, ripping on the poms, yanks, kiwis... If they exist, we have a nickname for them and a whole slew of jokes at the ready. :P But. Even though we're un-PC as all hell, we're not bigots, and pustulous jackholes like that guy always get run out of politics in the end.
 
2013-02-18 12:08:55 PM

Fluorescent Testicle: keylock71: Didn't an Australian MP recently say that jail is good for Aboriginals because it sobers them up?

Yeah, but honestly, it's usually not that sort of racism. It's more the "Everyone's a little bit racist" sort, ripping on the poms, yanks, kiwis... If they exist, we have a nickname for them and a whole slew of jokes at the ready. :P But. Even though we're un-PC as all hell, we're not bigots, and pustulous jackholes like that guy always get run out of politics in the end.


Of course, wasn't painting Australians with a large brush. Just remember reading that story not too long ago.

'Course, you are all incurable drunks and miscreants. : )
 
2013-02-18 12:10:07 PM
"Redskins" is not offensive by itself. "Redskins", when linked with the image of a Native American, is. If you need this explained to you, maybe don't take a PR job just yet. Or HR. Or anything where you may be working with people of other ethnicities.

I've had this idea for a while. Change the name, but keep it something that starts with "red" (for "tradition's sake"), something that ties it to the area, and something that fits in the meter of "Hail to the Redskins".

I say "RedScares".
 
2013-02-18 12:10:11 PM

keylock71: Looks like the link is to an online toy and model company based in Australia, but whatever... Like I said, never heard the term used to refer to a Police wagon in Dublin, anyway.


There are four links. I already delineated what each image is.

Though thanks for adding that the online toy/model company is from Australia. Which, as has been mentioned, is pretty well known for its casual racism. So now it's "a tour bus in Ireland, an old car for the Keystone Cops made up extra old-timey, a model for an old-time car from Australia, and a food truck from Ohio."

So that's not a real strong indicator of people actually using that phrase.
 
2013-02-18 12:10:55 PM

keylock71: Of course, wasn't painting Australians with a large brush. Just remember reading that story not too long ago.


I know, I just wanted an excuse to call that guy a pustulous jackhole again. :P

keylock71: 'Course, you are all incurable drunks and miscreants. : )


Oh, absolutely. Why else would I be on Fark? :)
 
2013-02-18 12:13:17 PM

IAmRight: Hang On Voltaire: Still being used today

1) in Ireland
2) in old-timey recreation
3) in an old-timey model
4) Ohio

So in the real world, no one really uses it except the Irish.


Proving that negative stereotypes for White Europeans are fine.
 
2013-02-18 12:15:29 PM

IAmRight: So that's not a real strong indicator of people actually using that phrase.


Ah, see it now... Yeah, don't disagree.


Fluorescent Testicle: keylock71: Of course, wasn't painting Australians with a large brush. Just remember reading that story not too long ago.

I know, I just wanted an excuse to call that guy a pustulous jackhole again. :P


It's a good phrase.

keylock71: 'Course, you are all incurable drunks and miscreants. : )

Oh, absolutely. Why else would I be on Fark? :)


I'm just usually trying to avoid work... Not that I'm not a drunk and miscreant, of course.
 
2013-02-18 12:15:58 PM

Hang On Voltaire: Proving that negative stereotypes for White Europeans are fine.


Is it really a negative stereotype that Irish people are often cops?
 
2013-02-18 12:16:12 PM
IAmRight:


So that's not a real strong indicator of people actually using that phrase.

of course it is.  Has anyone ever on Fark wrote "hey, you know what, you are right.  I guess I just didn't really research what you are saying and just went off half cocked and shouldn't have"
 
2013-02-18 12:17:24 PM

dinch: No mention of the Fighting Whities?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Whites
 
2013-02-18 12:19:45 PM

Hang On Voltaire: of course it is.


One example in America, and that's Ohio, which barely counts. Unless you think that a replica of a 100-year-old show is current usage.
 
2013-02-18 12:21:17 PM

IAmRight: Hang On Voltaire: Proving that negative stereotypes for White Europeans are fine.

Is it really a negative stereotype that Irish people are often cops?


Wait a minute.  You think the name Paddy Wagon derives from Irishmen being cops? Certainly a theory but likely from Irishmen being arrested for being drunk and fighting in large numbers.
 
2013-02-18 12:22:40 PM

Hang On Voltaire: Wait a minute.  You think the name Paddy Wagon derives from Irishmen being cops? Certainly a theory but likely from Irishmen being arrested for being drunk and fighting in large numbers.


Those are the two competing theories. You're kind of assuming which one you want to assume.
 
2013-02-18 12:24:44 PM

Krieghund: Hang On Voltaire: Also have Senators, Cavaliers, Cornhuskers, Sooners, Quakers, Trojans. Spartans, Mountaineers, Boilermakers, Midshipmen, Black Knights, Scarlet Knights, Tar Heels, Rebels, Generals. I can keep going

What's interesting is several of those are pejoratives that got reappropriated by the people they were supposed to describe.

But the difference is that most of the people attending the U. of Nebraska really are cornhuskers (or their descendants) and most of the people attending the U. of Oklahoma really are the descendants of the sooners. The people attending high schools with Native American mascots usually don't have any Native American heritage that they are aware of.


Yes, there are so many descendants of English Loyalists in Cleveland and descendants of Troy in LA.  I would wager there are more descendants of Sioux at the University of North Dakota than descendants of Sparta in Michigan.
 
2013-02-18 12:25:44 PM
If anyone cares...
 
2013-02-18 12:26:11 PM

RanDomino: Team names come in three flavors: Obscure local reference, ferocious or tenacious animal, ferocious or tenacious Indians. Indian team names put Native Americans on the level of animals.


heavymetal
They are the ones who gave us the term "brave" after all

"Etymology

French brave, borrowed from Italian bravo, itself either from Provençal brau ("show-off"), from Gaulish *bragos (compare Middle Irish breagha (modern breá) 'fine', Breton braga 'to strut') or from Latin *bravus, from a fusion of pravus and barbarus into a root *bravus."

Of course one thing I notice what seems to be forgotten is it was the white European Christian settlers that many on the political "right" consider as "traditional Americans", who were the "enemy" stealing the Native Americans' land and attempting a genocide of their culture and people. It is fighting them that gave Native Americans the image of being fearless warriors.

fark yeah noble savage


Hang On Voltaire
Look, nothing honors our native people Scandinavian people more than a drunken white frat boy Midwesterner dressed up like a Native American Chief Viking and dancing around blowing a huge horn on a basketball court. football field

Jorn the Younger
As a person of Nordic decent, I'm not offended by the Minessota Vikings, even though the actual mascot image is a cartoonish caricature of an actual viking warrior. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while I understand that a mascot derrived from a culture can be offensive, I'm not sold on the idea that it necessarily is.

Because there's so much painful (and ongoing) history of oppression of Vikings by white people?

Do you understand the difference between "We are ferocious animals" and "They are ferocious animals"?


So do you consider Vikings to be an "obscure local reference", "ferocious or tenacious animals", or "ferocious or tenacious Indians"?  Also, my high school mascot was the Lancers, which of your three catagories would they fall into?

Do you understand the difference between "We are ferocious warriors" and "they are ferocious animals"?
 
2013-02-18 12:26:47 PM
Whoops, meant:

If anyone cares...
 
2013-02-18 12:31:21 PM

Dr Dreidel: "Redskins" is not offensive by itself. "Redskins", when linked with the image of a Native American, is. If you need this explained to you, maybe don't take a PR job just yet. Or HR. Or anything where you may be working with people of other ethnicities.


The only people who seem to be consistently upset by "Redskins" are non-Native Americans with a pathological guilt complex.
 
2013-02-18 12:39:19 PM

GoldSpider: Dr Dreidel: "Redskins" is not offensive by itself. "Redskins", when linked with the image of a Native American, is. If you need this explained to you, maybe don't take a PR job just yet. Or HR. Or anything where you may be working with people of other ethnicities.

The only people who seem to be consistently upset by "Redskins" are non-Native Americans with a pathological guilt complex.


You sure?

// it ain't all Jewish kids like me
// some Native people don't care (and one leaders specifically says "We have bigger things to worry about"), but the fact that some do means we should at least strongly consider a change
// in what sense is it not insulting, though? To use a formerly-popular epithet as a team mascot/name?
 
2013-02-18 12:39:27 PM
Vikings: specific group of people, do not exist anymore, were not native to the area (term refers to people from 1000+ years ago)
Spartans: specific group of people, do not exist anymore, were not native to the area (Sparta hasn't existed for thousands of years)
Trojans: specific group of people, do not exist anymore, were not native to the area (Troy hasn't existed for thousands of years)
Cavaliers: not really related to the group of people you're claiming them to be related to - are more likely based on the word as derived, just meaning horsemen (but if they are, then they're a specific group of people who do not exist anymore and were not native to the area - limited to the 17th century England)

Redskins: not really a respectful term for a race of people that do still exist and were forcibly displaced from the area where the team plays.

But yeah, these things are totally the same.
 
2013-02-18 12:45:45 PM

Dracolich: Oh look, you edited out the word "coward." I guess I did offend you after all. So, tell me, why can you edit out "coward" and they can't edit out a mascot?


Aaaand favourited: Troll-pwner 7598080
 
2013-02-18 02:35:49 PM

shotglasss: keylock71: shotglasss: Shouldn't we just leave this fake debate about Indians to a fake Indian like Elezabeth Warren?

It makes me smile that you clods still have chafed asses over this...

And that's Senator Elizabeth Warren to you, clod.

I like your butthurt over the way I pointed out what a liar she is.


Didn't she never mention it until Republicans literally made up that she'd maybe used it on an application once, my brother Fred who's in Canada totally swears so?

Yup. What a liar.
 
2013-02-18 05:38:36 PM
Hang On Voltaire
Also have Senators, Cavaliers, Cornhuskers, Sooners, Quakers, Trojans. Spartans, Mountaineers, Boilermakers, Midshipmen, Black Knights, Scarlet Knights, Tar Heels, Rebels, Generals. I can keep going

Great, so there are plenty of options for these schools, without having to rely on ones that dehumanize people who were recently (and in some ways still are) subject to a lengthy and brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing by the people naming things after them out of 'admiration'.


Hang On Voltaire
Yes, there are so many descendants of English Loyalists in Cleveland and descendants of Troy in LA.

How many campaigns of ethnic cleansing have Americans carried out against the ancient Trojans? How have English Loyalists been oppressed in living memory? Does anyone still identify with them today?

I would wager there are more descendants of Sioux at the University of North Dakota than descendants of Sparta in Michigan.

Did they pick the name?


GoldSpider
I always thought a school chose a mascot as a means to self-identify with something worthy of admiration. You seem to think it is a gesture motivated by contempt. I can't imagine why you would think that way.

Yes, something worthy of admiration.


pxsteel
Animals, especially those of the apex variety, are majestic, not stupid.

The majestic Redman, loping about on the open prairie.


Jorn the Younger
So do you consider Vikings to be an "obscure local reference", "ferocious or tenacious animals", or "ferocious or tenacious Indians"?

Obscure local reference.

Also, my high school mascot was the Lancers, which of your three catagories would they fall into?

Okay, some are totally generic. Groups or people from mythology or distant history probably should be included in a larger second category with 'animals'.

Which reminds me of another point against Indian mascot names- The Vikings don't still exist. Lancers don't still exist. Indians very much do still exist. But if they're lumped in with mythology or distant history then it's implied that they're something in the past.
 
2013-02-18 10:41:25 PM

RanDomino: Hang On Voltaire
Also have Senators, Cavaliers, Cornhuskers, Sooners, Quakers, Trojans. Spartans, Mountaineers, Boilermakers, Midshipmen, Black Knights, Scarlet Knights, Tar Heels, Rebels, Generals. I can keep going

Great, so there are plenty of options for these schools, without having to rely on ones that dehumanize people who were recently (and in some ways still are) subject to a lengthy and brutal campaign of ethnic cleansing by the people naming things after them out of 'admiration'.


Hang On Voltaire
Yes, there are so many descendants of English Loyalists in Cleveland and descendants of Troy in LA.

How many campaigns of ethnic cleansing have Americans carried out against the ancient Trojans? How have English Loyalists been oppressed in living memory? Does anyone still identify with them today?

I would wager there are more descendants of Sioux at the University of North Dakota than descendants of Sparta in Michigan.

Did they pick the name?


GoldSpider
I always thought a school chose a mascot as a means to self-identify with something worthy of admiration. You seem to think it is a gesture motivated by contempt. I can't imagine why you would think that way.

Yes, something worthy of admiration.


pxsteel
Animals, especially those of the apex variety, are majestic, not stupid.

The majestic Redman, loping about on the open prairie.


Jorn the Younger
So do you consider Vikings to be an "obscure local reference", "ferocious or tenacious animals", or "ferocious or tenacious Indians"?

Obscure local reference.

Also, my high school mascot was the Lancers, which of your three catagories would they fall into?

Okay, some are totally generic. Groups or people from mythology or distant history probably should be included in a larger second category with 'animals'.


Y'know, for someone who's so concerned about people being demeaned by being lumped in groups with animals, you sure do seem to be lumping lots of people in with animals.

It's pretty easy to read additional inflection into something someone else wrote when you're looking to get offended, like you did when you bolded "thing" in the word "something".

I'm not making the argument that no mascots are offensive- I think Redskins is offensive, in the same way Chinks or Wetbacks would be offensive, I'm just not convinced that every single mascot based on Native American culture is offensive.  I'd actually wager that most of the schools and whatnot who have these team mascots would argue that they're "obscure local reference" mascots, just like you said Vikings is, inspired by the local history of the area.

/I like teams named for intangible concepts, personally.  I usually call my FF team "The Aftermath"
 
2013-02-18 11:23:24 PM
Native American nicknames are offensive..fine I guess. We do live in a PC world which makes me ill at times.  If the people of that Native American nation have no problem with it, I don't see it as a big deal. Here in Utah, the Ute nation supports the use of the name for the U of Utah. Why is it that only Native American names are offensive? Fighting Irish? that's not a stereotype? Why can Holy Cross still use the Crusaders? Because killing Muslims is ok?
 
2013-02-19 12:29:30 AM

yeah_so: Native American nicknames are offensive..fine I guess. We do live in a PC world which makes me ill at times.


Relevant quote from a few days back:

Neil Gaiman:  I was reading a book (about interjections, oddly enough) yesterday which included the phrase "In these days of political correctness..." talking about no longer making jokes that denigrated people for their culture or for the colour of their skin. And I thought, "That's not actually anything to do with 'political correctness'. That's just treating other people with respect."

Which made me oddly happy. I started imagining a world in which we replaced the phrase "politically correct" wherever we could with "treating other people with respect", and it made me smile.
You should try it. It's peculiarly enlightening.

I know what you're thinking now. You're thinking "Oh my god, that's treating other people with respect gone mad!"


Source
 
2013-02-19 12:33:53 AM
Jorn the Younger
I'm just not convinced that every single mascot based on Native American culture is offensive.

In Wisconsin, there's a review board that only looks at a mascot if someone complains, which seems like a better solution than just banning them flat-out, sure. Especially since it can be ambiguous, like if there's no imagery and the name isn't explicit.

/I like teams named for intangible concepts, personally. I usually call my FF team "The Aftermath"

That's a pretty awesome name.


yeah_so
Why can Holy Cross still use the Crusaders? Because killing Muslims is ok?

Is it a private school?
 
2013-02-19 12:46:35 AM
Did everyone miss the part where the local and/or referenced tribes would have to be OK with it? Or was that gigantic detail completely overlooked for the opportunity to do some totally awesome self-righteous chest thumping?
 
2013-02-19 05:17:50 AM
Oregon Republicans are a very special breed of... special.

They make Oregon's shiatty Democrats winners time and time again.

/Oregon used to have GREAT Republicans...
//*sigh*
 
2013-02-19 05:20:01 AM
And I mean, Allen Alley is not bad in my book, but the party basically puts him in a stranglehold.

Basically, Oregon's Republican status-quo could have written the book on teabagging, except for the fact that they like coffee and beer a lot more.
 
2013-02-20 04:23:41 AM

RanDomino: The Irish have been allowed into the gated community of Whiteness. 90 years ago you could have made an argument that the Minnesota Vikings was racist because of the contemporary anti-Finn racism. These things aren't problems anymore because the referenced population has been giving all the economic and social privilege of whiteness.


Finns weren't vikings.
 
2013-02-20 06:49:11 AM
mlkshk.com
/Native American
//Independent
 
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