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(Journal News)   Nuclear plants have to close because it would take 5+ hours to evacuate if 20 loons overran a larger force of heavily-armed guards on a snowy Wednesday in February after the tsunami hit and before you moved your clothes to the lower peg   (lohud.com) divider line 14
    More: Stupid, plants, nuclear plant, Entergy, emergency evacuation, tsunamis, emergency response, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, personnel  
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3145 clicks; posted to Geek » on 17 Feb 2013 at 4:18 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-17 09:36:02 AM
2 votes:

Kibbler: Next up:  Why wind, solar, geothermal, in fact every form of power other than nuclear is dirty, expensive and dangerous.


There are lots of options. And probably good value in diversity.

But as it stands today we accept large amounts of environmental damage to generate power, and suggesting that nuclear is somehow fundamentally different in this respect is inaccurate and will lead to bad decisions.
2013-02-17 09:29:59 AM
2 votes:

MurphyMurphy: Then there are the letters. For about 25 years we got letters from PA asking about our health and such.
They found us no matter where we moved, and if we didn't answer they'd call. Awfully ~concerned~ for such a non-event eh?


They were specifically trying to check things like whether or not there were any statistically significant differences in cancer rates/etc. in relation to your potential exposure. None of the studies conducted thus far have found any such difference.

At the edge of the reactor grounds the exposure was less than 100 millirem over background, and the estimated average dose for the surrounding population was 1 millirem, which is like 15% of a single chest x-ray. That doesn't affirmatively rule out all possibility of harm, but it's pretty good evidence that the harm, if any, was small and isolated.

Honestly I think TMI is a great example of a nuclear containment system working as intended to keep everyone safe. There were a whole slew of failures over a fairly long period, including a number of human errors, and the thing released very little radiation. I don't understand why people classify TMI as a disaster -- sure, we lost some capital investment in the reactor and had to deal with some cleanup, but to the best of our knowledge no one was injured or killed, and we learned useful things about how to build and operate reactors more safely in the future.
2013-02-17 09:08:45 AM
2 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: it poisons the land, food, and people surrounding it


Coal plants do this when functioning correctly. And that's not even counting all the CO2 they release.
2013-02-17 07:35:04 PM
1 votes:

kroonermanblack: Because clearly he was talking about a 'malfunction' in the sense of a technician spilled coffee on a keyboard, and not in the 'plant went into meltdown' mode, let's obscure the topic? It's pretty damned obvious that when someone says 'when these things malfunction....' they mean TMI or Chernobyl or Fukushima level of 'woops', not 'oh, the heaters are out again'.


Then why did he say 'malfunction' instead of 'has an accident' or 'melts down'?  Because it takes a lot of work to get a nuclear reactor to spill it's guts; especially if it has a containment dome.

Kibbler: Next up: Why wind, solar, geothermal, in fact every form of power other than nuclear is dirty, expensive and dangerous. Nuclear power: the only option. Because the next generation of plants will be completely different from all those bad, older designs, totally safe, cheap to build, no worries.


How about this one:  Let's not put all of our eggs in one basket.  My 'ideal' carbon-neutral mix of power is about 40% nuclear, 20% solar, 20% wind, and 20% other(Hydro, geothermal, etc...).

My reasonings:  20% solar:  Power demand tends to be about 50% higher in the day.  1.5(day)+1(night)=2.5.  .5=increased power amount during the day.  .5/2.5=20%.
20% wind:  It's a bit more complex, but 20% is around what we can cover via voluntary shut-offs like having certain industries shut off during peak demand, home level high-energy devices like AC, water heating, etc...
40% nuclear - This is basically the low baseload; demand never goes below this level.
20% other - the remainder.  Hydro is pretty much maxed out in the USA, but is often a good source of peak/emergency power.  There's limited areas where geothermal, tidal, and such are viable.  They tend to be expensive.

kroonermanblack: Coal plants aren't natures BFF, but you really need to look up modern scrubber systems.


My concern is that once you've built one of those modern scrubber systems suddenly the nuke plant is actually cheaper to build - and it's fuel is a whole lot cheaper.

macadamnut: Nuclear power would far safer if it weren't run for profit by lazy dishonest idiots. Same goes for coal power, commercial airlines, Wall Street, Washington DC, etc. etc.


Heh.  Let's see:
TMI - very little radiation released - Owned by a publicly traded company
Chernobyl - actual core breach, meltdown, dozens dead of radiation exposure - Run by a communist government organization.
Fukushima - 2 radiation burns, 37 with physical injuries.  Publicly traded company

On the whole, I'd say that the record is about equal.  Remember, those running a nuclear plant for profit know that if any screw ups happen the plant shuts down and <i>they make no money</i>.  If an accident occurs, they end up shutting down and again - LOSE MONEY.  There's lots of incentives to stay safe with nuclear power, especially if you're looking to make money by it.

Great Porn Dragon: OK, let's redefine the question then--how best to defend nuclear power plants against the general incompetence of beancounters for whom cost is king (since that apparently seems to be the big issue on why plants are kept around far beyond their service life, why stupid tests get run that cause meltdowns, and so on)?


That's the thing, going by the current records you <i>don't need to</i>.  You apply proper risk management, and it might sound crazy, but we've got the 'safety' part nailed per risk management.  Per the rules I've been taught, I'd examine the costs and dangers associated with other power sources and most likely streamline the rules for nuclear plants tremendously.

The goal is that while we might technically/theoretically be able to build a 99.9999999% safe plant today, the fact is that the old coal plants are only 90% safe, new ones 99%, and the old nuclear plants are 99.9%.  If we relax rules enough to get 99.99% nuclear plants built, we'd still be saving lives/resources on average.  Then, when those plants start approaching EOL, you have them build 99.999% safe plants, etc...
2013-02-17 01:23:37 PM
1 votes:
I'm all for nuclear power.

Old nuclear power in one of the most densely populated sections of the country, that constantly runs into evacuation and warning system issues?  Not so much.
2013-02-17 12:05:42 PM
1 votes:

Richard C Stanford: FTFA: Riverkeeper has "longstanding, major concerns about emergency planning" for Indian Point, including the Tappan Zee Bridge, often a traffic bottleneck, being overlooked because it is outside the 10-mile zone.

My question is, if there was a nuclear disaster, why not just bike out instead of taking a car? If you take your car you would end up stuck in traffic with a thousand other people, a problem that could be avoided by biking.


Maybe because many people can't bike more than a few miles before getting tired and winded. Not to mention elderly, infirm, infants, those with leg injuries and so on.

Remember, any solution for anything that starts out with "people should just..." is usually flawed at the outset.
2013-02-17 09:45:04 AM
1 votes:

Kibbler: profplump: Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: it poisons the land, food, and people surrounding it

Coal plants do this when functioning correctly. And that's not even counting all the CO2 they release.

Next up:  Why wind, solar, geothermal, in fact every form of power other than nuclear is dirty, expensive and dangerous.  Nuclear power:  the only option.  Because the next generation of plants will be completely different from all those bad, older designs, totally safe, cheap to build, no worries.

But wind turbines kill birds.


Coal plants aren't natures BFF, but you really need to look up modern scrubber systems. They're not the 1930s monsters you seem to be pushing.  The emissions are mostly water vapor and Co2 now.  The really dangerous bit is the heavy metals emissions. They're low, but when a plant opperates in-place for 50-100 years, it builds up, and unfortunately we don't have a way to detoxify the entire state.  But if it was as critical and massive as it's presented, we wouldn't have any wildlife in those areas any more either.

/studied it so not unbiased
2013-02-17 09:30:24 AM
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: omnibus_necanda_sunt: You know, I'd actually like someone to try and make a case against nuclear power. Even if they're just a troll. I'm feeling up for a challenge.

That's right, biatches. Post!

Well for one, while nuclear power generation is one of the statistically safest methods around, although when it does malfunction, it poisons the land, food, and people surrounding it for tens of thousands of years. It's like saying that airplane travel is one of the statistically safest around, although when a plane crashes it makes the surrounding area uninhabitable for the next ten-thousand years. If the risks of nuclear power were small (say, cement in the plant itself and everything else is fine) then nobody would have a problem with it. However the minor price reduction that nuclear power plants provide in no way accounts for the thousands of years of lost productivity that  will happen if said plant has a meltdown.

Were the federal government not picking up the tab for nuclear insurance, nobody would be building any plants at all.


You know, it's kind of ironic that the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone, the area too radioactive to allow people to resettle, has seen an increase in wildlife including rare species such as bears and wild horses due to the absence of humans. This obviously means one thing: nuclear disasters are good for the enviorment. It's just those hippies don't really want to do anything to help the enviorment because then they wouldn't have anything to biatch about.
2013-02-17 08:16:29 AM
1 votes:
We won't build any new nuke plants in the US until China has powered their whole country in the cheap with Thorium and the like.
2013-02-17 06:12:22 AM
1 votes:
Remember. The reason we have 40 year old boiling water reactors still is because these same people didn't want a safe new nuclear power plant in their back yards. They wanted to keep the old one.

/Fark em, let em glow.
2013-02-17 05:02:43 AM
1 votes:

omnibus_necanda_sunt: You know, I'd actually like someone to try and make a case against nuclear power. Even if they're just a troll. I'm feeling up for a challenge.

That's right, biatches. Post!


Not sure if serious.

I'm a TMI baby that grew up to find a significant (but benign) thyroid growth of a type usually linked with radiation exposure. I know plenty of families from Harrisburg from back then. Those that lived in the immediate evac zone have plenty of stories about friends and relatives that ended up with odd cancers (but who knows? lots of people have cancer that didn't live next to a nuke plant)

Then there are the letters. For about 25 years we got letters from PA asking about our health and such.
They found us no matter where we moved, and if we didn't answer they'd call. Awfully ~concerned~ for such a non-event eh?

I allegedly had it my whole life. When I beat lymphoma they thought I wasn't beating it because there was a persistent hot spot (hyper-metabolic mass) on the scans no matter how much chemo I'd been through. They went in for a piece to confirm and came back with the answer.

/csb
//nuke plants are still better than coal by a country mile
2013-02-17 04:53:41 AM
1 votes:

Bashar and Asma's Infinite Playlist: although when it does malfunction, it poisons the land, food, and people surrounding it for tens of thousands of years.


Actually, nuclear power plants malfunction all the time, part of most of them being old as heck.  99.999% of the time the malfunctions are minor, safety features work as intended and it doesn't make the news; or when it does it's a single scare article that is quickly buried as nothing else happens.

TMI was one of the first generations of nuclear power plants; we put a lot more safety features in afterwords.  Fukushima was actually built about the same time, it lasted far beyond it's design time, it took an earthquake and tsunami to take it out.  A Nuclear plant far closer to the center survived just fine - it's seawall was higher, and was of a newer, safer design.  Chernobyl didn't have a containment dome, a positive void co-efficient, and they were doing some really stupid 'tests'.

Plus, the whole 'poisons the land' is a bit complicated - it's a reducing danger thing; it's going to be statistically unnoticable before a thousand years is up, much less 10k.  Plus, nearby industrial towns cause more cancer cases from chemical means.  Coal causes more cancer from it's pollution.

I'd love to build a lot of new nuke plants - shut down the coal ones, then the older nuclear ones.  Save a lot of lives that way.
2013-02-17 01:59:29 AM
1 votes:

omnibus_necanda_sunt: You know, I'd actually like someone to try and make a case against nuclear power. Even if they're just a troll. I'm feeling up for a challenge.

That's right, biatches. Post!


Sure thing. Uranium reactors produce plutonium and other highly toxic materials that have to be stored for thousands of years, and man doesn't even have 100 years of storage history since we as a species split the atom.

Uranium, both bomb quality and power quality, is expensive, rare, and produces lots of nasty side effects. A few years back, there was a TED speech about how Thorium reactions could be optimized with salt formations, but that it didn't produce weapons grade anything as a consequence. I'm very radical, so I'd be all for dropping current nuclear power after researching Thorium's potential.
2013-02-17 12:02:50 AM
1 votes:
Sir? My younger brother's going out with Dibble this weekend, sir, but I'm not having my hair cut today, sir. So...
 
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