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(Phys Org2)   Higher education isn't for everyone, Cletus   (phys.org) divider line 66
    More: Obvious, higher educations, income families, variable costs, throw in, U.S. Department of Education  
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13161 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-15 12:24:38 PM
10 votes:
Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.
2013-02-15 01:00:05 PM
6 votes:
If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.
2013-02-15 12:46:11 PM
6 votes:
Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.
2013-02-15 12:43:12 PM
6 votes:
People need to stop imagining that College is some kind of intellectual Mt. Everest.
2013-02-15 12:35:06 PM
6 votes:
Houston ISD's stated mission is for all of their students to go to college. That is just moronic.
2013-02-15 01:03:37 PM
5 votes:
When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.
2013-02-15 01:11:45 PM
4 votes:
Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.
2013-02-15 12:47:43 PM
4 votes:

ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.



If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.
2013-02-15 01:13:12 PM
3 votes:

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.


I'm sorry you went to a terrible university.  Not everyone did, though.

Valiente: I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life


Very unlikely, unless you only count personal encounters.  But if plumbing technology hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, your life would be pretty similar.  You might have to know more about fixing stuff around your house if we had vanishingly few plumbers, but you could probably get by.

If physics hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, you probably couldn't afford the computer to type that post, let alone the Internet connection.

upload.wikimedia.org
2013-02-15 12:39:40 PM
3 votes:

Sybarite: Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.


Not as easy a decision when you are getting good grades and would be leaving scholarship "money on the table" to pursue a dream job of operating equipment like this:
sine.ni.com
Not that any guidance counselor would cooperate with such plans anyway.
2013-02-15 12:35:42 PM
3 votes:
I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.
2013-02-15 12:34:56 PM
3 votes:
i1079.photobucket.com
2013-02-15 02:14:05 PM
2 votes:

kwame: WhippingBoy: Bravely ran away, away!

OK, fine.  What is it you were planning to debate with me that you never actually came out and said?

johnny_vegas: because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)

I'm opposed to tenure because of the way it can be abused.  That said, there's something kind of fun about a crotchety old chemistry professor who will tell the provost to kiss his ass.


I'd rather have the few people that earn tenure and use it later to sit on their laurels a bit prior to retirement, than have a situation in which every professor feels they have to curtail their speech in class to not tick off that new department chair/college dean/university admin/major corporate donor who doesn't think twice about replacing people who think differently or question precious traditions.
2013-02-15 01:57:06 PM
2 votes:

dittybopper: ne so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:


1. No Fark (that'd kinda suck)
2. No way to verify the news you are reading without just taking the words of those on your local TV station (that would kinda suck)
3. If you were driving around late at night, and needed gas, you'd be SOL without a computer operating the debit/credit card machine on the pump.
4. Finding your friends/family/etc would be extremely expensive, so you would probably not keep track of them (Facebook, pipl, etc.)
5. Driving directions would be without a GPS (and we know how horrible driving directions from a random idiot can be).
6. No MRIs, CT scans, or medical imaging of any real use outside of X-rays.
7. Probably no oil as the computational power needed to find it wouldn't exist.
8. Most cars now have computers built into them for debugging, etc.
9. Building, bridges, and infrastructure are better designed now due to CAD.
10. Taxes by hand would be a huge pain and would probably require you to hire an accountant who knew the laws.
11. Probably the most important for those on Fark... little to no access to porn.

etc. etc. etc.

Next time you meet an IT guy... hug him, and thank him for giving you access to porn.
2013-02-15 01:48:06 PM
2 votes:

FreetardoRivera: Colleges exist to make money and more students equals more buckos.


Name one public institution that has posted a profit in the past 25 years.  The purpose has never been to make money.

bdub77: Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach. So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.


The problem with what you think here is that if students pass low level math courses and go on to enroll in upper level math courses, that creates additional tuition money, which opens up funding to hire more people.  You've got some kind of insidious institutional plan to crush students academically, and it's not true.  There are definitely professors who think their personal charge is to guard the gates to knowledge, but there are far fewer of those people than you think.
2013-02-15 01:42:58 PM
2 votes:

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least


That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".
2013-02-15 01:35:22 PM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.


Dude, I studied anthropology at a top tier university and graduated with a very good GPA. I went into it thinking I would do museum work, but after an internship I realized that wasn't my path.  But I kept on with anthro because I enjoyed it. I had no idea what I was going to do with it.

I ended up parlaying that into a job in tourism PR, which lead to marketing, which after a career change lead to of all things real estate. MOST college grads do something else with their life than what they majored in.
2013-02-15 01:34:46 PM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.



I can't fully describe what plans I have with my PhD* in physics.  I guess college isn't for me?

*to be acquired in the near future
2013-02-15 01:15:45 PM
2 votes:
Cletus (there are a few ways to spell it) was a Macedonian general who put the lie to Alexander's atrocious conduct in China, at the expense of his own life.  Nothing derpy about him.  Nothing at all.
2013-02-15 01:01:35 PM
2 votes:

palelizard: If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension? Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me? I don't want it to be amateurs.


Aaaaand favorited.
2013-02-15 12:55:07 PM
2 votes:
ha ha...rural people are uneducated! ha ha!


/I'd like to see you grow an acre of corn, Winthorp.
2013-02-15 12:52:53 PM
2 votes:

Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.


The "B" Ark.

http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm

The C is where you actually want to be.

/SEE? We're all so useless the only thing I can do is pop in and correct an only marginally vague reference! We're DOOMED.
2013-02-15 12:50:35 PM
2 votes:

Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.


We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*
2013-02-15 12:50:08 PM
2 votes:
College has been dumbed down to the point that anyone can get in. They rake in a lot of cash that way, but there are still people who can't graduate. Once it is dumbed down enough even for them, a degree will no longer have any meaning, and we are already stepping down that slippery slope.
2013-02-15 12:36:36 PM
2 votes:
Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.
2013-02-15 12:36:19 PM
2 votes:
Drop out of college, then the rigors of college aren't for you.

Drop out of high school, then the lazy teachers and failed system wouldn't help the poor little snowflake sufficiently.
2013-02-15 12:34:41 PM
2 votes:
Yeah, but don't you go tryin' to tell them about no global warmin'  Their's opinion is jus' as good as yours and what makes you so smart anyway?
2013-02-15 12:07:03 PM
2 votes:
Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.
2013-02-15 03:26:01 PM
1 votes:

feanorn: Some folks keep falling upward. But there should be a very high correlation between making it through and being at a certain level of competence. Otherwise, there is little reason to have the system. And that's the direction we're going, which is too bad.


I think you're overreacting to the current level of college graduates.  Are they all exceptionally talented and bright?  No, but they are almost all much better prepared than a high school student who has been working for four years.  There will always be a handful of people who skate through with minimal effort and learn nothing.  That's an extremely small number, though.

I don't think everything about college should be difficult, either.  Some of it is about getting exposure - in some states, students come from small rural towns and meet people and have experiences that make them better employees and better people.  That's not tough, but it's not always available if you just hop out of high school and start to work.
2013-02-15 02:52:17 PM
1 votes:
Look.  I do this:
www.skm.com

My customers are people who do this:
electriciansanantoniotx.info

and this:
www.foleyinc.com

There is a definite age gap.  We need more electricians.  I keep dealing with the same people I've been dealing with for 15 years and many are nearing retirement.  Tech school and apprenticeships are the way to go.

It is good honest, decent paying work and at least you can point to projects you had a hand in.  That is mine. I've left my mark.
2013-02-15 02:52:07 PM
1 votes:
Grade school should be difficult. High school should be difficult. College should be difficult. Grad school should be difficult. It's a winnowing process: you'll get a good number of highly motivated, decently intelligent folks who move through at each level (of course, a good number of very intelligent people will find something more interesting to do; many who make it through grad school, for instance, do so not because they're blindingly intelligent but because they're smart enough and have vast reserves of patience and drive). That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do. We should be able to assume that those who make it through college have the basic skills, attitudes, and motivation to be useful. Sadly, we cannot do so as things stand.
2013-02-15 02:50:45 PM
1 votes:

CliChe Guevara: The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.


I actually agree with that, despite physicists having a (... somewhat, unfortunately, *deserved*) stereotype of looking down at folks for not being physicists.
2013-02-15 02:33:14 PM
1 votes:

Felgraf: I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*.


I agree, and FWIW, most of the intro physics classes I've seen take the "engineering" approach, because that's what most of the students are.  The physics majors get bored, because they like to see where the laws come from.  (I know of a few counter-examples, such as courses that start off with symmetry and conservation laws and go from there ...)
2013-02-15 02:31:15 PM
1 votes:

Hyggelig lurker: Is this the thread were people confuse an education with a vocation and cry about the cost?

/Worked out well for Dick Grasso


The trick is to get an education AND a vocation... and use said vocation to fund education.
2013-02-15 02:30:23 PM
1 votes:

Ambitwistor: Well, let's put it this way: first-year STEM classes are far, far easier than upper-level STEM classes. Anyone who doesn't make it through a first-year class isn't going to make it through an upper-level class either. In that sense, whatever "weed-out" role they serve is legitimate: the people who don't make it through them aren't going to make it through a related degree.


This is true, although I also wish to argue that I've found (via tutoring undergrads who seem to grasp things *very quickly* when I do it) that some professors have *no idea* how to alter their teaching style.

I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*. Much like physics majors don't need a rigorous proof of why spherical integration is r^2 sin(theta) dr dtheta dphi: while a rigorous proof *exists*, the cheaty, handwavy proof (If we shrink everything down REALLY small, a chunk of area dV looks like a cube, and look! This side corresponds to dr, this side to  rdtheta, and this side to r sin(theta) dphi!  (A proof which I have seen make mathematicians *cringe*.)

That's just my opinion, mind, and I *am* currently only a grad student.
2013-02-15 02:22:17 PM
1 votes:

bdub77: Ambitwistor: That's hilarious. First-year STEM courses are usually ridiculously easy. They manage to weed lots of students out anyway. There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

YMMV. I never encountered an 'easy' STEM class when I was at college other than maybe Multivariate Calculus, but it was almost 20 years ago.


Well, let's put it this way:  first-year STEM classes are far, far easier than upper-level STEM classes.  Anyone who doesn't make it through a first-year class isn't going to make it through an upper-level class either.  In that sense, whatever "weed-out" role they serve is legitimate:  the people who don't make it through them aren't going to make it through a related degree.
2013-02-15 02:16:36 PM
1 votes:
It would be nice if public schools stopped demonizing any option other than college.  If a kid is clearly not college material, help him/her find a technical school or certification program.  I see so many women in their late 20s struggling to get their certification for Medical Assistant while holding down two jobs.  If they had gone into that program right after high school, they could have been making a livable wage right off the bat and would be doing much better.  High schools just focus on being able to say they sent a good percentage of their graduating class on to college without considering how many of those students will actually complete their degree vs. how many will be saddled with debt and soul-crushing disappointment.
2013-02-15 02:13:42 PM
1 votes:

bdub77: Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach.


Academic departments generally want to increase upper-level enrollment in their majors, not decrease it.  And departments have plenty of people to teach the higher level courses.  Teaching the gigantic lower-level courses is the problem; they need an army of TAs and graders.

However, most of the students in their first-year service courses are not potential majors in their department.  For example, most of the students in intro math/chem/phys courses are prospective engineers, not prospective math/chem/phys majors.  Whatever "weeding out" goes on in service courses usually affects students who wouldn't have taken the department's upper-level courses to begin with.

So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.

That's hilarious.  First-year STEM courses are usually ridiculously easy.  They manage to weed lots of students out anyway.  There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

I agree the textbooks are dry, but most of them at that level are decently written.  (The bad texts are upper-level, written by pure researchers.)  And the expense has to do with book publishers, not nefarious university scheming.
2013-02-15 02:06:40 PM
1 votes:

Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


I *Do* agree with this. At the same time, we'd need to pay people who *aren't* college graduates a better wage. I actually have a HUGE degree of respect for anyone who works in the services industry (I could not do that without murdering someone), but they barely get enough to survive as-is, and we as a society tend to look down on folks with technical degrees (for reasons I cannot fathom.)

Not really sure what the fix is. =/.
2013-02-15 02:06:06 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"


I could go on to list all the productive ways people have made an ass-ton of money and contributed to the world with all of those majors.  There's no such thing as a worthless major, only a worthless job candidate who didn't put his back into his degree.
2013-02-15 02:00:35 PM
1 votes:

FizixJunkee: I know someone who majored in English at Georgia Tech. Made no sense to me at all.


Because a school with a reputation like Georgia Tech can still pull in accomplished faculty, even in fields that aren't engineering.  Because he/she wanted to go to Georgia Tech but English was the right degree for him/her.   There are tons of reasons.  It's a personal decision.  That said, I don't see where they offer a degree in just English.
2013-02-15 01:57:11 PM
1 votes:

FizixJunkee: By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.


Which happens to be the exact opposite of what is taught for 12+ years of primary education.
2013-02-15 01:55:41 PM
1 votes:

FizixJunkee: Professors aren't teachers!


Do they teach?

If so, they are teachers.

All the courses in my major were taught by professors.

FizixJunkee: By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.


True.

FizixJunkee: Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.


So they should, in your opinion, just hand you a curriculum and then test you once at the end of the semester? 

Because lectures, class discussions, and labwork are all teaching, whether you want to admit it or not.

If all students needed was a curriculum and testing, professors wouldn't be required at all.
2013-02-15 01:49:22 PM
1 votes:
bdub77:
Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses...

Professors aren't teachers!

By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.  Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.  They are not there to teach.

Professors are valuable because they have expertise in their fields, but they are not teachers.

\if you need someone to "teach" you when you're in college, you either need to hire a tutor or you're just too dumb for college
2013-02-15 01:47:30 PM
1 votes:
You can't handle the truth!

estb.msn.com

Son, we live in a world that has morons, and those morons have to be taught by men with academic credentials. Who's gonna do it? You? You, kwame? You, WhippingBoy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for little snowflakes and you curse the tenured professor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping out of school, while tragic, probably saved money. And my entitled existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is pretty sweet! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me behind that podium! You need me behind that podium! We use words like "peer reviewed", "vacation time", "office hours", "teaching assistants". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending my job. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very education that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pencil, and grade a report. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think I am entitled to!
2013-02-15 01:40:14 PM
1 votes:

dickfreckle: Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.

As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away


I graduated with a BS in Psychology (hard science graduates: insert lame joke here) because obtaining a college degree was a parental requirement. I never went into that field, but the critical thinking skills I learned in college (which actually began in high school) helped me to do pretty well in advertising--a field that doesn't require a degree (just a really, really good portfolio).

Of course, I do apply some of what I learned in some of my behavioral, clinical and organizational psych classes. Namely, understanding what motivates people, how to ask the right questions and listen to what people are actually saying when they respond, and how different organizational "personas" are going to influence the way I approach a project.

So, I'm guessing you use a little of what you learned in college, even if you don't realize it :-)
2013-02-15 01:39:01 PM
1 votes:
Even dumb kids can be taught a worthwhile trade if they can find something they like doing.
2013-02-15 01:36:02 PM
1 votes:

Carn: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science


Assume a spherical computer science student...
2013-02-15 01:33:19 PM
1 votes:
Schooling is not for everyone, hard/manual labor is not for everyone.
2013-02-15 01:29:37 PM
1 votes:

Felgraf: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*


You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old  liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.
2013-02-15 01:26:52 PM
1 votes:

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


Yep, I have a younger brother who struggled to finish high school a year late after repeating 5th grade. Not the brightest academic prospect, but a conscientious worker who tried his had at several trades before settling in as a commercial fisherman in Alaska. Now he's captain of his own boat with more than 130,000 lbs of black cod and halibut quota, and brings home $150k+ from 7 months work a year. I went to college and grad school, and did okay, but have never made more than $120k. Can't say he made the wrong choice.
2013-02-15 01:23:31 PM
1 votes:
"No, Alex, you are not greater than Phillip, for he fought men and farked women."  Pretty brave words to say to the boss.  Given the chance to unsay it, he refused and was executed.
2013-02-15 01:22:25 PM
1 votes:
I saw a few Cletus's when I was at Georgia Tech.  Mainly country boys who were overwhelmed on so many levels.  Some were funny, but some you genuinely felt sad for because they really tried hard to make it academically, but their high schools did not prepare them properly for college.
2013-02-15 01:20:14 PM
1 votes:
Sad because of politically correct Admissions
2013-02-15 01:17:11 PM
1 votes:
College is awesome when you are poor. I remember sorta knowing I would drop out because I didn't excel in HS.  Then I found out attendance was not mandatory, participation was not always mandatory and my grade really was up to me. Before I always felt like I was drowning.

Then something happened, which unleashed the power of my imagination, I learned to learn
2013-02-15 01:14:22 PM
1 votes:

kwame: ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.


Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.
2013-02-15 01:14:15 PM
1 votes:
palelizard:
If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.



25.media.tumblr.com


Well f'in done.
/awesome
2013-02-15 01:11:36 PM
1 votes:

ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.


What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.


You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.
2013-02-15 01:08:30 PM
1 votes:

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


The problem is narcissism. Everyone thinks that the're "super awesome" and wouldn't think of lowering themselves to doing a Plebeian "trade". Even when they're pushed to their limits by a freakin' Liberal Arts degree, they still refuse to accept the truth. Which is why we have so many educated idiots serving us coffee or teaching our children.
2013-02-15 01:03:45 PM
1 votes:

Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.


As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away
2013-02-15 01:00:30 PM
1 votes:

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least


I know people who combined 1 and 2 and graduated through their technical school.  None of them went on to get a bachelors (yet).

/the plural of anecdote is not data
//some people just misjudge the first time around.
2013-02-15 12:57:01 PM
1 votes:
Every Freshman in my college was required to take a remedial English class, in the forlorn hope of teaching them the rudiments of communicating a coherent thought in complete sentences. I tested out of it after one class, but the horrors of what I saw in that one hour will be with me forever. The Introduction to Sociology class I later took as an General Ed elective was the icing on the cake, in terms of my realizing that education can't fix stupid.
2013-02-15 12:44:05 PM
1 votes:
1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least
2013-02-15 12:40:09 PM
1 votes:

PhiloeBedoe: [i1079.photobucket.com image 400x300]


perishablepress.com
2013-02-15 12:33:35 PM
1 votes:
Because nobody is prepared for unforeseen life events, right?
2013-02-15 12:12:11 PM
1 votes:

UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.


Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.
 
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