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(Phys Org2)   Higher education isn't for everyone, Cletus   (phys.org) divider line 225
    More: Obvious, higher educations, income families, variable costs, throw in, U.S. Department of Education  
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13165 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-15 02:28:51 PM  
Part of the problem is that people are told "do what you love and the money will follow".

While I actually believe this to be true, a lot of people seem to interpret "doing what you love" as meaning "take whatever bores you the least".

If you're not already doing "it" in some capacity by the time you hit University, you don't "love" it.
 
2013-02-15 02:30:23 PM  

Ambitwistor: Well, let's put it this way: first-year STEM classes are far, far easier than upper-level STEM classes. Anyone who doesn't make it through a first-year class isn't going to make it through an upper-level class either. In that sense, whatever "weed-out" role they serve is legitimate: the people who don't make it through them aren't going to make it through a related degree.


This is true, although I also wish to argue that I've found (via tutoring undergrads who seem to grasp things *very quickly* when I do it) that some professors have *no idea* how to alter their teaching style.

I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*. Much like physics majors don't need a rigorous proof of why spherical integration is r^2 sin(theta) dr dtheta dphi: while a rigorous proof *exists*, the cheaty, handwavy proof (If we shrink everything down REALLY small, a chunk of area dV looks like a cube, and look! This side corresponds to dr, this side to  rdtheta, and this side to r sin(theta) dphi!  (A proof which I have seen make mathematicians *cringe*.)

That's just my opinion, mind, and I *am* currently only a grad student.
 
2013-02-15 02:30:38 PM  

Felgraf: Ambitwistor: There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

I have been trying to tutor for a student taking Algebra Based Physics, and it is HARD. I honestly believe that Calc based physics is just simply *easier* to teach and comprehend than algebra based, because, well, that's how physics was *derived*.


I agree, if you also understand calculus!  If you don't, then obviously algebra-based physics will be easier to understand.
 
2013-02-15 02:31:12 PM  

Skraeling: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

You hurt me :(

Sounds like a debate on BBT


imgs.xkcd.com

/hot
//mandatory
 
2013-02-15 02:31:15 PM  

Hyggelig lurker: Is this the thread were people confuse an education with a vocation and cry about the cost?

/Worked out well for Dick Grasso


The trick is to get an education AND a vocation... and use said vocation to fund education.
 
2013-02-15 02:31:51 PM  

p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU


DePaul
 
2013-02-15 02:32:43 PM  

Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".


You sound like you are deeply in debt
 
2013-02-15 02:33:14 PM  

Felgraf: I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*.


I agree, and FWIW, most of the intro physics classes I've seen take the "engineering" approach, because that's what most of the students are.  The physics majors get bored, because they like to see where the laws come from.  (I know of a few counter-examples, such as courses that start off with symmetry and conservation laws and go from there ...)
 
2013-02-15 02:34:05 PM  

Frank N Stein: p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU

DePaul


That was in the 4 - UC and Loyola the others. Do you have a summer internship lined up yet?
 
2013-02-15 02:36:14 PM  

p the boiler: Frank N Stein: p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU

DePaul

That was in the 4 - UC and Loyola the others. Do you have a summer internship lined up yet?


Nope. Ill spend the summer working on boats. It's kinda what I do. I'm working on my captain's license right now.
 
2013-02-15 02:43:58 PM  

dittybopper: My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.


 I come from a background of academia, working in a business environment full of empty advanced degrees, and having a hobby of restoring automobiles and machining parts.
 I can safely tell you the level of technical knowledge, common sense, and problem solving skills required of repairing cars (or any skilled trade for that matter) usually far exceeds the demands of most any classic cubicle farm business degree job.
 In fact, the level of skills required for a good machinist, particularly high-level technical knowledge and mathematics, exceeds that required of most any engineering degree. Engineering is easy, being a machinist is a frighteningly high barrier to reach.

 Working with hands =/= ignorant

 The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.
 
2013-02-15 02:48:49 PM  

Ambitwistor: I agree, if you also understand calculus! If you don't, then obviously algebra-based physics will be easier to understand.


Well, yes, this is true. It's more that my brain is going "Wait how in gods name do I *explain* how these formulas are related without using calculus?" And to an extent, I've realized I can't, not exactly. They'll just have to memorize 1/2 a t^2, instead of understanding where the 1/2 and t^2 term comes from...

Ambitwistor: Felgraf: I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*.

I agree, and FWIW, most of the intro physics classes I've seen take the "engineering" approach, because that's what most of the students are.  The physics majors get bored, because they like to see where the laws come from.  (I know of a few counter-examples, such as courses that start off with symmetry and conservation laws and go from there ...)


I get the feeling a lot of the professors at this school *do* go the physics route. I've got one tutoring student who comes out of class confused, but after an hour or so of tutoring it just seems to click for them. Granted, I know this is the teacher's first time teaching a full class (and we do some sort of... weird standardization thing here, where all the teachers have to teach intro physics atmore-or-less-the-same-pace).
 
2013-02-15 02:50:45 PM  

CliChe Guevara: The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.


I actually agree with that, despite physicists having a (... somewhat, unfortunately, *deserved*) stereotype of looking down at folks for not being physicists.
 
2013-02-15 02:52:07 PM  
Grade school should be difficult. High school should be difficult. College should be difficult. Grad school should be difficult. It's a winnowing process: you'll get a good number of highly motivated, decently intelligent folks who move through at each level (of course, a good number of very intelligent people will find something more interesting to do; many who make it through grad school, for instance, do so not because they're blindingly intelligent but because they're smart enough and have vast reserves of patience and drive). That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do. We should be able to assume that those who make it through college have the basic skills, attitudes, and motivation to be useful. Sadly, we cannot do so as things stand.
 
2013-02-15 02:52:17 PM  
Look.  I do this:
www.skm.com

My customers are people who do this:
electriciansanantoniotx.info

and this:
www.foleyinc.com

There is a definite age gap.  We need more electricians.  I keep dealing with the same people I've been dealing with for 15 years and many are nearing retirement.  Tech school and apprenticeships are the way to go.

It is good honest, decent paying work and at least you can point to projects you had a hand in.  That is mine. I've left my mark.
 
2013-02-15 02:57:49 PM  
As my father used to say upon bringing home a poor report card, "The world needs ditch diggers too.  Maybe you're just not that smart and digging holes is your destiny."

/would usually get straight A's the following semester
 
2013-02-15 03:01:07 PM  

caddisfly: As my father used to say upon bringing home a poor report card, "The world needs ditch diggers too.  Maybe you're just not that smart and digging holes is your destiny."

/would usually get straight A's the following semester


98% of poor report cards have access to a refrigerator.
 
2013-02-15 03:01:59 PM  

Master Sphincter: Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".

You sound like you are deeply in debt


By what logic do you conclude that?

FWIW, my only debt is one mortgage for a condo that I'm turning a rental profit on (providing the market goes back up before  any major repairs kick in, but I should be good even then) and the waterfront home I live in (which doesn't make me wealthy, it makes me someone who lives in michigan where waterfront is affordable for the middle class).  The first mortgage has a 5% interest rate at 30 years (23 left), the second has a 2.85% 15 year.  The first is covered by rent as I said, the 2nd only amounts to one week's pay per month with the taxes and everything else rolled in.

You seem like someone who can't defend their argument on it's own basis and has to make assumptions about the individual you are talking to instead.
 
2013-02-15 03:08:41 PM  

feanorn: That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do.


If an employer can't evaluate people without having some educational filtration system to tell him that person is a good candidate, he has big problems.
 
2013-02-15 03:16:39 PM  

johnny_vegas: You can't handle the truth!

[estb.msn.com image 400x300]

Son, we live in a world that has morons, and those morons have to be taught by men with academic credentials. Who's gonna do it? You? You, kwame? You, WhippingBoy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for little snowflakes and you curse the tenured professor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping out of school, while tragic, probably saved money. And my entitled existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is pretty sweet! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me behind that podium! You need me behind that podium! We use words like "peer reviewed", "vacation time", "office hours", "teaching assistants". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending my job. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very education that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pencil, and grade a report. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think I am entitled to!


I heart you so much right now.
 
2013-02-15 03:17:49 PM  

kwame: feanorn: That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do.

If an employer can't evaluate people without having some educational filtration system to tell him that person is a good candidate, he has big problems.


I overstated things. Will there always be people who are plenty competent and able outside the system? You bet. Will the system always work? Of course not. Some folks keep falling upward. But there should be a very high correlation between making it through and being at a certain level of competence. Otherwise, there is little reason to have the system. And that's the direction we're going, which is too bad.
 
2013-02-15 03:21:27 PM  

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.


Obligatory xkcd:
http://xkcd.com/435/
 
2013-02-15 03:26:01 PM  

feanorn: Some folks keep falling upward. But there should be a very high correlation between making it through and being at a certain level of competence. Otherwise, there is little reason to have the system. And that's the direction we're going, which is too bad.


I think you're overreacting to the current level of college graduates.  Are they all exceptionally talented and bright?  No, but they are almost all much better prepared than a high school student who has been working for four years.  There will always be a handful of people who skate through with minimal effort and learn nothing.  That's an extremely small number, though.

I don't think everything about college should be difficult, either.  Some of it is about getting exposure - in some states, students come from small rural towns and meet people and have experiences that make them better employees and better people.  That's not tough, but it's not always available if you just hop out of high school and start to work.
 
2013-02-15 03:28:06 PM  

p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.

I always loved the university - Purdue also has a highly regarded Communications program

Com VistaIn August 2008, Com Vista, a guide to programs of study in communication-related departments, ranked Purdue's Department of Communication No. 2 in health communication and No. 4 in interpersonal and organizational communication. The rankings are based on faculty's publications in the 50 journals related to the field.

Purdue's communication department also placed in the top 10 for specific areas of study, including No. 1 (tie) in the area of narrative and No. 2 in the area of communication and emotion.


Bragging about a comm degree. That's a new one. Not even the football players in your class did that.
 
2013-02-15 03:31:19 PM  
I usually (usually... not constantly) find that people in college or with degrees tend to be more intelligent (or at least have more wherewithal) to draw conclusions about things they encounter.

A lot of vocations that don't require college require you to be smart at that profession, but outside of that... not nearly as much. If this went away, I'd be less adverse to the whole "you don't need to go to college" talk.
 
2013-02-15 03:33:40 PM  

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however


Or selling shoes at Dick's sporting goods.
 
2013-02-15 03:36:44 PM  

Silverstaff: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible

So, 4 years?

Around these parts you aren't allowed to take the GED test before age 18, they just changed the law so that you can't drop out before 18, and no school district I know of lets people skip grades or be promoted ahead (that would get them out of their system early, thus depriving them of precious Federal subsidy dollars).


Not that this is the sample group he was addressing, but graduating high school early is a new trend - especially in college athletics....

http://m.jacksonville.com/sports/premium-sports/2013-01-19/story/sch oo l-already-out-super-75-football-prospects-many-whom-are
 
2013-02-15 03:38:21 PM  
Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.
 
2013-02-15 03:40:03 PM  

jst3p: We need more of these:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/high-schools-offering- as sociate-degrees-ensure-students-job-college-ready-article-1.1213538


THIS!
 
2013-02-15 03:40:40 PM  

Marine1: I usually (usually... not constantly) find that people in college or with degrees tend to be more intelligent (or at least have more wherewithal) to draw conclusions about things they encounter.


I consider myself an outlier (as I haven't had a degree or been in school for most of my adult life), but I would tend to agree, in general.

Marine1: A lot of vocations that don't require college require you to be smart at that profession, but outside of that... not nearly as much. If this went away, I'd be less adverse to the whole "you don't need to go to college" talk.


There are a lot of people who aren't going to be "smart" outside their profession no mater how much water you lead them to. I think we should accept that for most people their "peak" is pretty low.
 
2013-02-15 03:42:38 PM  

MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.


inothernewz.com


"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"
 
2013-02-15 03:42:53 PM  

johnny_vegas: You can't handle the truth!

[estb.msn.com image 400x300]

favorited

 
2013-02-15 03:42:57 PM  
So kids stay in school until they hit the weed-out class, yeah, sounds about right.  I am pretty sure it is set up that way by intention.  For us, all business, science, math and engineering majors had to take Macro Econ first semester junior year.  it was structured as a Cal1.5 class with real world applications.  About 20% passed the class the first time.  If you failed you had 3 options; take it again, change to lib arts or drop out.  I knew people on their 2nd,3rd and even 4th time trying.  Get passed that class and you had a 90% chance of graduating. 70% of those that could not get passed it ended up dropping out.

If you were smart, you took pre-cal 1st year and cal1 2nd year
 
2013-02-15 03:43:51 PM  

Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".

You sound like you are deeply in debt

By what logic do you conclude that?

FWIW, my only debt is one mortgage for a condo that I'm turning a rental profit on (providing the market goes back up before  any major repairs kick in, but I should be good even then) and the waterfront home I live in (which doesn't make me wealthy, it makes me someone who lives in michigan where waterfront is affordable for the middle class).  The first mor ...


Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements
 
2013-02-15 03:46:46 PM  

jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.




"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"


Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.
 
2013-02-15 03:46:54 PM  

pxsteel: So kids stay in school until they hit the weed-out class, yeah, sounds about right.  I am pretty sure it is set up that way by intention.  For us, all business, science, math and engineering majors had to take Macro Econ first semester junior year.  it was structured as a Cal1.5 class with real world applications.  About 20% passed the class the first time.  If you failed you had 3 options; take it again, change to lib arts or drop out.  I knew people on their 2nd,3rd and even 4th time trying.  Get passed that class and you had a 90% chance of graduating. 70% of those that could not get passed it ended up dropping out.

If you were smart, you took pre-cal 1st year and cal1 2nd year


For me it was second year:
Intro to Basic Circuit Analysis I (first semester). Class size: 138.
Intro to Basic Circuit Analysis II (second semester). Class size: 42

A LOT of people discovered that being the top math student in their small-town high-school class didn't mean jack shiat in the real world.
 
2013-02-15 03:47:14 PM  

Master Sphincter: Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements


Nah, I'm just calling you out for jumping to a personal attack, and a wildly assuming one at that, in lieu of supporting your own discussion points or responding to mine.

I'm just going to go ahead and mark you as troll now, between your posting and your account creation date.
 
2013-02-15 03:47:55 PM  

MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.


Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.
 
2013-02-15 03:49:45 PM  

jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.


A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.
 
2013-02-15 03:51:05 PM  

MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.

A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.


It does. We are talking about college and you brought up student loans.

The internet, serious business.
 
2013-02-15 03:52:21 PM  

feanorn: Grade school should be difficult. High school should be difficult. College should be difficult. Grad school should be difficult. It's a winnowing process: you'll get a good number of highly motivated, decently intelligent folks who move through at each level (of course, a good number of very intelligent people will find something more interesting to do; many who make it through grad school, for instance, do so not because they're blindingly intelligent but because they're smart enough and have vast reserves of patience and drive). That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do. We should be able to assume that those who make it through college have the basic skills, attitudes, and motivation to be useful. Sadly, we cannot do so as things stand.


  Thats what I always figured the point of education is. Its not the content of a degree that is useful per se, but rather the skills (work ethic, patience, drive, critical thinking, research, focus, concentration, etc) that one needs to sucessfully complete a degree. People who complete a degree should (in theory) have these skills and should be able to apply them to any kind of job they do.

Its rare to find work directly related to many different degrees regarding specific content, unless you pursue a masters in your field or if you are especially bright and driven.  Even the so-called "useful degrees" in sciences etc were "useless" to my friends (for work in that exact subject) unless they continued and got a masters and more. Yet, everyone I know who has a degree still has a successful job,  just not in their exact field of study.  If you want a job in your exact field of study you get a vocation.  University gives you a set of skills that is useful regardless of content.  Does it require more imagination and drive to apply those skills in the workforce? Yes, but it also requires those skills to successfully complete a degree in university in the first place. I presume thats what employers are looking for, especially ones that require a degree in their employees.

  Why are farkers so damn bitter about "liberal arts" degrees?  Is it something peculiar to the education system in the US? Or are they just trolling? Are universities and colleges just pumping out degrees to people who don't actually acquire general university skills and therefore end up unemployable with a degree and crazy debt? Or is it just because the economy is suffering right now and therefore fewer jobs? I'm not from the States so I am not sure how how it works down there. My personal experience shows people with degrees are more successful than those without so I've always been baffled by Farks hostility.

(trades in the oil patch trumps EVERYONE)
 
2013-02-15 03:53:25 PM  

jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.

A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.

It does. We are talking about college and you brought up student loans.

The internet, serious business.


I've found that a number of people just don't "get" Fark.
 
2013-02-15 03:53:26 PM  
When the secretary, the security guard, and the retail manager all need college degrees just to get in the door then yes, college must be for everyone.
 
2013-02-15 03:56:37 PM  

DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.


Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/
 
2013-02-15 03:57:29 PM  

WhippingBoy: I've found that a number of people just don't "get" Fark.


I am just going to chalk it up to a knee-jerk reaction to his believing I was arguing with him. Some people are sensitive.
 
2013-02-15 03:59:21 PM  

BgJonson79: DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.

Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/


The world needs the unemployed and downtrodden, too.

Mostly so that people like me can feel smug and better about ourselves.
 
2013-02-15 04:07:23 PM  

WhippingBoy: BgJonson79: DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.

Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/

The world needs the unemployed and downtrodden, too.

Mostly so that people like me can feel smug and better about ourselves.


^ If everyone was STEM, a new butt of jokes would emerge. My money's would be on the statisticians.
 
2013-02-15 04:17:08 PM  

WhippingBoy: kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"


Anecdotally speaking?

The IT guy
 
2013-02-15 04:18:49 PM  

Rindred: WhippingBoy: kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"

Anecdotally speaking?

The IT guy


This IT guy has a good job with a pretty good salary and no college degree (or loans), so he is getting a kick out of your reply.
 
2013-02-15 04:27:15 PM  

kwame: What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.


Oh lighten up, Francis. I was poking fun.
 
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