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(Phys Org2)   Higher education isn't for everyone, Cletus   (phys.org) divider line 225
    More: Obvious, higher educations, income families, variable costs, throw in, U.S. Department of Education  
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13163 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-15 01:14:22 PM

kwame: ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.


Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.
 
2013-02-15 01:14:43 PM
When I was colleging all my learn is.
 
2013-02-15 01:15:45 PM
Cletus (there are a few ways to spell it) was a Macedonian general who put the lie to Alexander's atrocious conduct in China, at the expense of his own life.  Nothing derpy about him.  Nothing at all.
 
2013-02-15 01:16:07 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.


I'm sure that's something the students like to think, but that's untrue.

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


What a sh*tty department that must have been.  Mostly graduate student advisors, I assume?
 
2013-02-15 01:16:49 PM

WhippingBoy: Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.


Like yours?
 
2013-02-15 01:17:11 PM
College is awesome when you are poor. I remember sorta knowing I would drop out because I didn't excel in HS.  Then I found out attendance was not mandatory, participation was not always mandatory and my grade really was up to me. Before I always felt like I was drowning.

Then something happened, which unleashed the power of my imagination, I learned to learn
 
2013-02-15 01:18:10 PM

WhippingBoy: kwame: ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.

Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran a tenured academic. And it makes baby Jesus cry.

 
2013-02-15 01:18:57 PM

mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)


Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.
 
2013-02-15 01:20:14 PM
Sad because of politically correct Admissions
 
2013-02-15 01:20:58 PM

johnny_vegas: a tenured academic


Why tenured?
 
2013-02-15 01:21:16 PM
Interesting study - I would think that Heisenberg would apply here:  if you check on he academic status of a student up to 12 times a year, wouldn't they feel some pressure to do better?
 
2013-02-15 01:21:35 PM

kwame: johnny_vegas: a tenured academic

Why tenured?


Because it is one better than nineured?
 
2013-02-15 01:22:08 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.

Like yours?


Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.
 
2013-02-15 01:22:21 PM

jst3p: Because it is one better than nineured?


lol
 
2013-02-15 01:22:25 PM
I saw a few Cletus's when I was at Georgia Tech.  Mainly country boys who were overwhelmed on so many levels.  Some were funny, but some you genuinely felt sad for because they really tried hard to make it academically, but their high schools did not prepare them properly for college.
 
2013-02-15 01:23:11 PM

WhippingBoy: Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.


I'm not in a debate with you.  You haven't established anything except to make an inflammatory comment.  Plus, you're an asshole.
 
2013-02-15 01:23:31 PM
"No, Alex, you are not greater than Phillip, for he fought men and farked women."  Pretty brave words to say to the boss.  Given the chance to unsay it, he refused and was executed.
 
2013-02-15 01:25:58 PM
Is this the thread were people confuse an education with a vocation and cry about the cost?

/Worked out well for Dick Grasso
 
2013-02-15 01:26:52 PM

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


Yep, I have a younger brother who struggled to finish high school a year late after repeating 5th grade. Not the brightest academic prospect, but a conscientious worker who tried his had at several trades before settling in as a commercial fisherman in Alaska. Now he's captain of his own boat with more than 130,000 lbs of black cod and halibut quota, and brings home $150k+ from 7 months work a year. I went to college and grad school, and did okay, but have never made more than $120k. Can't say he made the wrong choice.
 
2013-02-15 01:27:17 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.

I'm not in a debate with you.  You haven't established anything except to make an inflammatory comment.  Plus, you're an asshole.


Brave Sir kwame ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
 
2013-02-15 01:27:19 PM

kwame: johnny_vegas: a tenured academic

Why tenured?


because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)
 
2013-02-15 01:29:23 PM

WhippingBoy: Bravely ran away, away!


OK, fine.  What is it you were planning to debate with me that you never actually came out and said?

johnny_vegas: because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)


I'm opposed to tenure because of the way it can be abused.  That said, there's something kind of fun about a crotchety old chemistry professor who will tell the provost to kiss his ass.
 
2013-02-15 01:29:37 PM

Felgraf: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*


You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old  liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.
 
2013-02-15 01:31:11 PM

mark.jms: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.

The "B" Ark.

http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm

The C is where you actually want to be.

/SEE? We're all so useless the only thing I can do is pop in and correct an only marginally vague reference! We're DOOMED.


Thanks. I read them when they came out, and the "C" of that time is probably now a "B" so no child is left behind.

/jk.
//I wish.
 
2013-02-15 01:32:11 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.


Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science
 
2013-02-15 01:32:21 PM

Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".


But those are the people doing all the research.  If we do nothing but apply the science, there would be a much smaller rate of advancement.

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


You have a large number of imaginary people as a sample group?  That's not very sound science.
 
2013-02-15 01:33:19 PM
Schooling is not for everyone, hard/manual labor is not for everyone.
 
2013-02-15 01:34:21 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible


So, 4 years?

Around these parts you aren't allowed to take the GED test before age 18, they just changed the law so that you can't drop out before 18, and no school district I know of lets people skip grades or be promoted ahead (that would get them out of their system early, thus depriving them of precious Federal subsidy dollars).
 
2013-02-15 01:34:45 PM
www.reed.edu
 
2013-02-15 01:34:46 PM

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.



I can't fully describe what plans I have with my PhD* in physics.  I guess college isn't for me?

*to be acquired in the near future
 
2013-02-15 01:35:22 PM

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.


Dude, I studied anthropology at a top tier university and graduated with a very good GPA. I went into it thinking I would do museum work, but after an internship I realized that wasn't my path.  But I kept on with anthro because I enjoyed it. I had no idea what I was going to do with it.

I ended up parlaying that into a job in tourism PR, which lead to marketing, which after a career change lead to of all things real estate. MOST college grads do something else with their life than what they majored in.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:02 PM

Carn: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science


Assume a spherical computer science student...
 
2013-02-15 01:36:41 PM

kwame: Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

But those are the people doing all the research.  If we do nothing but apply the science, there would be a much smaller rate of advancement.

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.

You have a large number of imaginary people as a sample group?  That's not very sound science.


Neither was lowering entry qualifications to a debased 60% in the '80s.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:41 PM

chimp_ninja: Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

I'm sorry you went to a terrible university.  Not everyone did, though.

Valiente: I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life

Very unlikely, unless you only count personal encounters.  But if plumbing technology hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, your life would be pretty similar.  You might have to know more about fixing stuff around your house if we had vanishingly few plumbers, but you could probably get by.

If physics hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, you probably couldn't afford the computer to type that post, let alone the Internet connection.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x422]


In all fairness, he said *NEED*.

I could live my life quite well without a computer.  In fact, I *HAVE* done so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:

oi47.tinypic.com


My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.

/Friends with tradesmen.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:51 PM
 
2013-02-15 01:36:53 PM

ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.


School officials. Zero tolerance, curriculum, suspensions and all that fun stuff.
 
2013-02-15 01:37:41 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.


At UCLA, the dumping ground is called USC (otherwise known as the University of Second Chances).

\former UCLA engineering prof shared that one with me a couple days ago.
 
2013-02-15 01:38:19 PM

Valiente: Neither was lowering entry qualifications to a debased 60% in the '80s.


Considering the increased number of people with college degrees, I'd say it worked.
 
2013-02-15 01:38:23 PM

kwame: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.

I'm sure that's something the students like to think, but that's untrue.


So you're saying that every program at any given school is equally rigorous in its own way? Yes, some programs require far applications vs rote memorization of procedure, but I would disagree with that conclusion based on my own (albeit limited and therefore imperfect) observations and the belief that SOMEONE has to be last. In my undergraduate time, there seemed to be a clustering of potheads and morons in the Radio/Television program. Maybe it was limited sample size on my part, or maybe the program simply had a cluster of f**kheads when I was chasing my handshake/piece of paper. Anecdote vs data and all that.
 
2013-02-15 01:39:01 PM
Even dumb kids can be taught a worthwhile trade if they can find something they like doing.
 
2013-02-15 01:39:59 PM

Nurglitch


Assume a spherical computer science student...


of uniform density...
 
2013-02-15 01:40:08 PM
Jesus you guys are completely full of shiat, and none of you is as intelligent as you think you are.
 
2013-02-15 01:40:14 PM

dickfreckle: Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.

As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away


I graduated with a BS in Psychology (hard science graduates: insert lame joke here) because obtaining a college degree was a parental requirement. I never went into that field, but the critical thinking skills I learned in college (which actually began in high school) helped me to do pretty well in advertising--a field that doesn't require a degree (just a really, really good portfolio).

Of course, I do apply some of what I learned in some of my behavioral, clinical and organizational psych classes. Namely, understanding what motivates people, how to ask the right questions and listen to what people are actually saying when they respond, and how different organizational "personas" are going to influence the way I approach a project.

So, I'm guessing you use a little of what you learned in college, even if you don't realize it :-)
 
2013-02-15 01:41:19 PM
What higher education for Cletus might look like
www.luther.edu
 
2013-02-15 01:42:24 PM

Valiente: Felgraf: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*

You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old  liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


It isn't just about "equality" .

Colleges exist to make money and more students equals more buckos.
 
2013-02-15 01:42:58 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least


That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".
 
2013-02-15 01:42:58 PM
I had some really great yet challenging professors in college. I had several though who were worthless pieces of sh*t and should have never been in a classroom. Most of the latter were my math and science teachers in college.

Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach. So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.

The dropout rate is not nearly as disconcerting as the degree transfer rate.

Also I can say without hesitation that while there are several people I work with that have excellent English skills, there are frankly a number of people with zero ability to communicate. Face it the US needs Liberal Arts majors, just as it needs Math and Science majors. Just maybe not in the ratios the colleges are putting out.
 
2013-02-15 01:44:19 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: So you're saying that every program at any given school is equally rigorous in its own way? Yes, some programs require far applications vs rote memorization of procedure, but I would disagree with that conclusion based on my own (albeit limited and therefore imperfect) observations and the belief that SOMEONE has to be last. In my undergraduate time, there seemed to be a clustering of potheads and morons in the Radio/Television program. Maybe it was limited sample size on my part, or maybe the program simply had a cluster of f**kheads when I was chasing my handshake/piece of paper. Anecdote vs data and all that.


I never said they were equally rigorous, but there isn't a "dumping ground."  BA programs are designed for flexibility and a broad range of educational experience.  That's where students with no direction or future plans tend to end up.  To say the program is a "dumping ground" debases the program, though.  There are pothead and moron engineering / chemistry / physics majors.  There are studious and brilliant philosophy / music / political science majors.
 
2013-02-15 01:46:21 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.



Biology is Applied Chemistry, and much more fun than learning Organic Chemistry.

/O-chem sucked
//except for the lab fires
 
2013-02-15 01:46:46 PM
Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?
 
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