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(Phys Org2)   Higher education isn't for everyone, Cletus   (phys.org) divider line 225
    More: Obvious, higher educations, income families, variable costs, throw in, U.S. Department of Education  
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13163 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 12:30 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-15 12:07:03 PM
Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.
 
2013-02-15 12:12:11 PM

UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.


Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.
 
2013-02-15 12:24:38 PM
Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.
 
2013-02-15 12:33:35 PM
Because nobody is prepared for unforeseen life events, right?
 
2013-02-15 12:34:41 PM
Yeah, but don't you go tryin' to tell them about no global warmin'  Their's opinion is jus' as good as yours and what makes you so smart anyway?
 
2013-02-15 12:34:56 PM
i1079.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-15 12:35:06 PM
Houston ISD's stated mission is for all of their students to go to college. That is just moronic.
 
2013-02-15 12:35:42 PM
I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.
 
2013-02-15 12:35:55 PM

ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.


"I like sleeping with girls as much as the next lesbian, but I'm not going to major in it..."
 
2013-02-15 12:36:15 PM
Obliviously college is biased as only smart people benefit.....we should require College to give out 50% of its degrees to people below average intelligence.
 
2013-02-15 12:36:19 PM
Drop out of college, then the rigors of college aren't for you.

Drop out of high school, then the lazy teachers and failed system wouldn't help the poor little snowflake sufficiently.
 
2013-02-15 12:36:36 PM
Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.
 
2013-02-15 12:37:46 PM
msnbcmedia2.msn.com
 
2013-02-15 12:39:40 PM

Sybarite: Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.


Not as easy a decision when you are getting good grades and would be leaving scholarship "money on the table" to pursue a dream job of operating equipment like this:
sine.ni.com
Not that any guidance counselor would cooperate with such plans anyway.
 
2013-02-15 12:40:09 PM

PhiloeBedoe: [i1079.photobucket.com image 400x300]


perishablepress.com
 
2013-02-15 12:40:53 PM

ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.


Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)
 
2013-02-15 12:40:54 PM
Came for Judge Smails.
 
2013-02-15 12:43:12 PM
People need to stop imagining that College is some kind of intellectual Mt. Everest.
 
2013-02-15 12:44:05 PM
1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least
 
2013-02-15 12:46:11 PM
Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.
 
2013-02-15 12:47:43 PM

ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.



If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.
 
2013-02-15 12:48:26 PM
Whoa whoa whoa: so you're saying that kids with good grades don't drop out?

Thanks again, Ric Romero.
 
2013-02-15 12:49:05 PM

Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.


Marketing major?
 
2013-02-15 12:50:08 PM
College has been dumbed down to the point that anyone can get in. They rake in a lot of cash that way, but there are still people who can't graduate. Once it is dumbed down enough even for them, a degree will no longer have any meaning, and we are already stepping down that slippery slope.
 
2013-02-15 12:50:35 PM

Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.


We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*
 
2013-02-15 12:51:55 PM
"It could be if I knew two years before that science at university is going to be much harder than science in high school, perhaps I can change my behaviour then.

Now there's some optimism.
 
2013-02-15 12:52:53 PM

Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.


The "B" Ark.

http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm

The C is where you actually want to be.

/SEE? We're all so useless the only thing I can do is pop in and correct an only marginally vague reference! We're DOOMED.
 
2013-02-15 12:53:52 PM
25.media.tumblr.com

Some foke'll never eat a skunk but then again some fokel, like Cletus, the slack jawed yokel!
 
2013-02-15 12:55:07 PM
ha ha...rural people are uneducated! ha ha!


/I'd like to see you grow an acre of corn, Winthorp.
 
2013-02-15 12:57:01 PM
Every Freshman in my college was required to take a remedial English class, in the forlorn hope of teaching them the rudiments of communicating a coherent thought in complete sentences. I tested out of it after one class, but the horrors of what I saw in that one hour will be with me forever. The Introduction to Sociology class I later took as an General Ed elective was the icing on the cake, in terms of my realizing that education can't fix stupid.
 
2013-02-15 01:00:05 PM
If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.
 
2013-02-15 01:00:30 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least


I know people who combined 1 and 2 and graduated through their technical school.  None of them went on to get a bachelors (yet).

/the plural of anecdote is not data
//some people just misjudge the first time around.
 
2013-02-15 01:01:35 PM

palelizard: If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension? Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me? I don't want it to be amateurs.


Aaaaand favorited.
 
2013-02-15 01:03:00 PM
"A large part is contributed to the academic or grade performance being worse then they expected; they just weren't prepared," he said.

Read more at:http://phys.org/news/2013-02-dropouts-werent.html#jCp

 Ironically the grammar in this article is worse than expected, for an article that discusses lack of academic aptitude.
 
2013-02-15 01:03:16 PM

Madbassist1: /I'd like to see you grow an acre of corn, Winthorp.



Shouldn't be a problem...

...Do you need an actual elephant to determine when the growing is complete?
 
2013-02-15 01:03:37 PM
When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.
 
2013-02-15 01:03:45 PM

Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.


As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away
 
2013-02-15 01:05:43 PM

DECMATH: Sybarite: Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.

Not as easy a decision when you are getting good grades and would be leaving scholarship "money on the table" to pursue a dream job of operating equipment like this:
[sine.ni.com image 448x306]
Not that any guidance counselor would cooperate with such plans anyway.


www.peopleamazeme.com

www.demotivationalposters.org

failing those two

www.sciencephoto.com
 
2013-02-15 01:06:28 PM
Ironically the grammar in this article is worse  thanexpected, considering the author's critique of academic aptitude.

"A large part is contributed to the academic or grade performance being worse then they expected; they just weren't prepared," he said.

Read more at:http://phys.org/news/2013-02-dropouts-werent.html#jCp
 
2013-02-15 01:07:22 PM
Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work. Mine was the RTV program - literally zero minimum standards to get into it.
 
2013-02-15 01:08:30 PM

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


The problem is narcissism. Everyone thinks that the're "super awesome" and wouldn't think of lowering themselves to doing a Plebeian "trade". Even when they're pushed to their limits by a freakin' Liberal Arts degree, they still refuse to accept the truth. Which is why we have so many educated idiots serving us coffee or teaching our children.
 
2013-02-15 01:11:36 PM

ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.


What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.


You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.
 
2013-02-15 01:11:45 PM
Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.
 
2013-02-15 01:11:55 PM

dickfreckle: Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.

As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away


They didn't teach you how to think. They allowed you to think, which is very different
Your story: like looking into a mirror

/broke with twins on the way
//considering a life of crime
 
2013-02-15 01:11:57 PM

Sybarite: Better to drop out when you realize college isn't for you than stick around and keep piling up debt.

 
2013-02-15 01:12:01 PM
This article focuses on lower-income kids, but when I was in college I had some roommates my freshman year (we all shared a suite in the crappy dorm basement) that came from some serious wealth and were actually only there for the bong action and skiing. Their study habits were below zilch. Not exactly a shock when they didn't make it back after winter break and we never saw them again.
 
2013-02-15 01:13:12 PM

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.


I'm sorry you went to a terrible university.  Not everyone did, though.

Valiente: I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life


Very unlikely, unless you only count personal encounters.  But if plumbing technology hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, your life would be pretty similar.  You might have to know more about fixing stuff around your house if we had vanishingly few plumbers, but you could probably get by.

If physics hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, you probably couldn't afford the computer to type that post, let alone the Internet connection.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2013-02-15 01:13:14 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least



At first I was all "Hey, I switched 2 & 3 and it worked out for me because I needed at least a BA for my technical writing certificate," but then I remembered that I probably would have done much better in my graduate work had I been aware of the rudiments of technical writing. In fact, I might not have been kicked out of my MA program. So there's that.

I'll also add that after two years of technical school, one may be inclined to go out and get employed rather than going to university.
 
2013-02-15 01:13:55 PM

stanank: Ironically the grammar in this article is worse  thanexpected, considering the author's critique of academic aptitude.

"A large part is contributed to the academic or grade performance being worse then they expected; they just weren't prepared," he said.

Read more at:http://phys.org/news/2013-02-dropouts-werent.html#jCp


Hang that on the article writer, not the researcher. It's an interview quotation, and has been poorly transcribed.

/I've been misquoted by a reporter
 
2013-02-15 01:14:15 PM
palelizard:
If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.



25.media.tumblr.com


Well f'in done.
/awesome
 
2013-02-15 01:14:22 PM

kwame: ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.


Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.
 
2013-02-15 01:14:43 PM
When I was colleging all my learn is.
 
2013-02-15 01:15:45 PM
Cletus (there are a few ways to spell it) was a Macedonian general who put the lie to Alexander's atrocious conduct in China, at the expense of his own life.  Nothing derpy about him.  Nothing at all.
 
2013-02-15 01:16:07 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.


I'm sure that's something the students like to think, but that's untrue.

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


What a sh*tty department that must have been.  Mostly graduate student advisors, I assume?
 
2013-02-15 01:16:49 PM

WhippingBoy: Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.


Like yours?
 
2013-02-15 01:17:11 PM
College is awesome when you are poor. I remember sorta knowing I would drop out because I didn't excel in HS.  Then I found out attendance was not mandatory, participation was not always mandatory and my grade really was up to me. Before I always felt like I was drowning.

Then something happened, which unleashed the power of my imagination, I learned to learn
 
2013-02-15 01:18:10 PM

WhippingBoy: kwame: ajgeek: Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.

Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

You're so full of sh*t I can smell it through the monitor.

Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran a tenured academic. And it makes baby Jesus cry.

 
2013-02-15 01:18:57 PM

mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)


Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.
 
2013-02-15 01:20:14 PM
Sad because of politically correct Admissions
 
2013-02-15 01:20:58 PM

johnny_vegas: a tenured academic


Why tenured?
 
2013-02-15 01:21:16 PM
Interesting study - I would think that Heisenberg would apply here:  if you check on he academic status of a student up to 12 times a year, wouldn't they feel some pressure to do better?
 
2013-02-15 01:21:35 PM

kwame: johnny_vegas: a tenured academic

Why tenured?


Because it is one better than nineured?
 
2013-02-15 01:22:08 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Making spurious claims without actually explaining yourself just makes you look like a Grade A Moran. And it makes baby Jesus cry.

Like yours?


Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.
 
2013-02-15 01:22:21 PM

jst3p: Because it is one better than nineured?


lol
 
2013-02-15 01:22:25 PM
I saw a few Cletus's when I was at Georgia Tech.  Mainly country boys who were overwhelmed on so many levels.  Some were funny, but some you genuinely felt sad for because they really tried hard to make it academically, but their high schools did not prepare them properly for college.
 
2013-02-15 01:23:11 PM

WhippingBoy: Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.


I'm not in a debate with you.  You haven't established anything except to make an inflammatory comment.  Plus, you're an asshole.
 
2013-02-15 01:23:31 PM
"No, Alex, you are not greater than Phillip, for he fought men and farked women."  Pretty brave words to say to the boss.  Given the chance to unsay it, he refused and was executed.
 
2013-02-15 01:25:58 PM
Is this the thread were people confuse an education with a vocation and cry about the cost?

/Worked out well for Dick Grasso
 
2013-02-15 01:26:52 PM

trotsky: When I did Academic Advising we had a saying "College ain't for everyone". That's really true. We didn't shiat on people because they were better suited to a trade or something. I value the hell out of people in the trades. But we need to face the fact that a helluva lot of people simply are not suited for college work.


Yep, I have a younger brother who struggled to finish high school a year late after repeating 5th grade. Not the brightest academic prospect, but a conscientious worker who tried his had at several trades before settling in as a commercial fisherman in Alaska. Now he's captain of his own boat with more than 130,000 lbs of black cod and halibut quota, and brings home $150k+ from 7 months work a year. I went to college and grad school, and did okay, but have never made more than $120k. Can't say he made the wrong choice.
 
2013-02-15 01:27:17 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Wow. Your debating skills are superlative. I'm guessing English or Women's Studies major.

I'm not in a debate with you.  You haven't established anything except to make an inflammatory comment.  Plus, you're an asshole.


Brave Sir kwame ran away.
Bravely ran away, away!
 
2013-02-15 01:27:19 PM

kwame: johnny_vegas: a tenured academic

Why tenured?


because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)
 
2013-02-15 01:29:23 PM

WhippingBoy: Bravely ran away, away!


OK, fine.  What is it you were planning to debate with me that you never actually came out and said?

johnny_vegas: because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)


I'm opposed to tenure because of the way it can be abused.  That said, there's something kind of fun about a crotchety old chemistry professor who will tell the provost to kiss his ass.
 
2013-02-15 01:29:37 PM

Felgraf: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*


You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old  liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.
 
2013-02-15 01:31:11 PM

mark.jms: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.

The "B" Ark.

http://www.geoffwilkins.net/fragments/Adams.htm

The C is where you actually want to be.

/SEE? We're all so useless the only thing I can do is pop in and correct an only marginally vague reference! We're DOOMED.


Thanks. I read them when they came out, and the "C" of that time is probably now a "B" so no child is left behind.

/jk.
//I wish.
 
2013-02-15 01:32:11 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.


Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science
 
2013-02-15 01:32:21 PM

Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".


But those are the people doing all the research.  If we do nothing but apply the science, there would be a much smaller rate of advancement.

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


You have a large number of imaginary people as a sample group?  That's not very sound science.
 
2013-02-15 01:33:19 PM
Schooling is not for everyone, hard/manual labor is not for everyone.
 
2013-02-15 01:34:21 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible


So, 4 years?

Around these parts you aren't allowed to take the GED test before age 18, they just changed the law so that you can't drop out before 18, and no school district I know of lets people skip grades or be promoted ahead (that would get them out of their system early, thus depriving them of precious Federal subsidy dollars).
 
2013-02-15 01:34:45 PM
www.reed.edu
 
2013-02-15 01:34:46 PM

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.



I can't fully describe what plans I have with my PhD* in physics.  I guess college isn't for me?

*to be acquired in the near future
 
2013-02-15 01:35:22 PM

WhippingBoy: If you tell someone your major, and they ask you "what are you going to do with that?", and you can't describe your plans and goals in exquisite detail, then college isn't for you.


Dude, I studied anthropology at a top tier university and graduated with a very good GPA. I went into it thinking I would do museum work, but after an internship I realized that wasn't my path.  But I kept on with anthro because I enjoyed it. I had no idea what I was going to do with it.

I ended up parlaying that into a job in tourism PR, which lead to marketing, which after a career change lead to of all things real estate. MOST college grads do something else with their life than what they majored in.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:02 PM

Carn: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science


Assume a spherical computer science student...
 
2013-02-15 01:36:41 PM

kwame: Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

But those are the people doing all the research.  If we do nothing but apply the science, there would be a much smaller rate of advancement.

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.

You have a large number of imaginary people as a sample group?  That's not very sound science.


Neither was lowering entry qualifications to a debased 60% in the '80s.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:41 PM

chimp_ninja: Random Anonymous Blackmail: It is because they are farking lazy but no mention that American collegial acceptance is not based upon anything aside from your check clearing.

I'm sorry you went to a terrible university.  Not everyone did, though.

Valiente: I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life

Very unlikely, unless you only count personal encounters.  But if plumbing technology hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, your life would be pretty similar.  You might have to know more about fixing stuff around your house if we had vanishingly few plumbers, but you could probably get by.

If physics hadn't advanced in the past 50 years, you probably couldn't afford the computer to type that post, let alone the Internet connection.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 640x422]


In all fairness, he said *NEED*.

I could live my life quite well without a computer.  In fact, I *HAVE* done so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:

oi47.tinypic.com


My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.

/Friends with tradesmen.
 
2013-02-15 01:36:51 PM
 
2013-02-15 01:36:53 PM

ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.


School officials. Zero tolerance, curriculum, suspensions and all that fun stuff.
 
2013-02-15 01:37:41 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.


At UCLA, the dumping ground is called USC (otherwise known as the University of Second Chances).

\former UCLA engineering prof shared that one with me a couple days ago.
 
2013-02-15 01:38:19 PM

Valiente: Neither was lowering entry qualifications to a debased 60% in the '80s.


Considering the increased number of people with college degrees, I'd say it worked.
 
2013-02-15 01:38:23 PM

kwame: Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: Every school has a dumping ground for students who want a degree but don't want the work.

I'm sure that's something the students like to think, but that's untrue.


So you're saying that every program at any given school is equally rigorous in its own way? Yes, some programs require far applications vs rote memorization of procedure, but I would disagree with that conclusion based on my own (albeit limited and therefore imperfect) observations and the belief that SOMEONE has to be last. In my undergraduate time, there seemed to be a clustering of potheads and morons in the Radio/Television program. Maybe it was limited sample size on my part, or maybe the program simply had a cluster of f**kheads when I was chasing my handshake/piece of paper. Anecdote vs data and all that.
 
2013-02-15 01:39:01 PM
Even dumb kids can be taught a worthwhile trade if they can find something they like doing.
 
2013-02-15 01:39:59 PM

Nurglitch


Assume a spherical computer science student...


of uniform density...
 
2013-02-15 01:40:08 PM
Jesus you guys are completely full of shiat, and none of you is as intelligent as you think you are.
 
2013-02-15 01:40:14 PM

dickfreckle: Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.

As retarded as I am, no one was more surprised as I when I made it through college with decent grades. But you're right - in college I had to be taught to actually think. It was a foreign concept.

/does not use the degree...hell, have forgotten nearly everything learned
//not a good ROI, but what the hell - that degree can never be taken away


I graduated with a BS in Psychology (hard science graduates: insert lame joke here) because obtaining a college degree was a parental requirement. I never went into that field, but the critical thinking skills I learned in college (which actually began in high school) helped me to do pretty well in advertising--a field that doesn't require a degree (just a really, really good portfolio).

Of course, I do apply some of what I learned in some of my behavioral, clinical and organizational psych classes. Namely, understanding what motivates people, how to ask the right questions and listen to what people are actually saying when they respond, and how different organizational "personas" are going to influence the way I approach a project.

So, I'm guessing you use a little of what you learned in college, even if you don't realize it :-)
 
2013-02-15 01:41:19 PM
What higher education for Cletus might look like
www.luther.edu
 
2013-02-15 01:42:24 PM

Valiente: Felgraf: Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

We still have apprenticeship.

It's called "Graduate school".

/You've also probably got far, far more of a need for a physicist than you think. You just don't need to interact with one *directly*

You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old  liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


It isn't just about "equality" .

Colleges exist to make money and more students equals more buckos.
 
2013-02-15 01:42:58 PM

Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least


That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".
 
2013-02-15 01:42:58 PM
I had some really great yet challenging professors in college. I had several though who were worthless pieces of sh*t and should have never been in a classroom. Most of the latter were my math and science teachers in college.

Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach. So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.

The dropout rate is not nearly as disconcerting as the degree transfer rate.

Also I can say without hesitation that while there are several people I work with that have excellent English skills, there are frankly a number of people with zero ability to communicate. Face it the US needs Liberal Arts majors, just as it needs Math and Science majors. Just maybe not in the ratios the colleges are putting out.
 
2013-02-15 01:44:19 PM

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: So you're saying that every program at any given school is equally rigorous in its own way? Yes, some programs require far applications vs rote memorization of procedure, but I would disagree with that conclusion based on my own (albeit limited and therefore imperfect) observations and the belief that SOMEONE has to be last. In my undergraduate time, there seemed to be a clustering of potheads and morons in the Radio/Television program. Maybe it was limited sample size on my part, or maybe the program simply had a cluster of f**kheads when I was chasing my handshake/piece of paper. Anecdote vs data and all that.


I never said they were equally rigorous, but there isn't a "dumping ground."  BA programs are designed for flexibility and a broad range of educational experience.  That's where students with no direction or future plans tend to end up.  To say the program is a "dumping ground" debases the program, though.  There are pothead and moron engineering / chemistry / physics majors.  There are studious and brilliant philosophy / music / political science majors.
 
2013-02-15 01:46:21 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.



Biology is Applied Chemistry, and much more fun than learning Organic Chemistry.

/O-chem sucked
//except for the lab fires
 
2013-02-15 01:46:46 PM
Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?
 
2013-02-15 01:47:30 PM
You can't handle the truth!

estb.msn.com

Son, we live in a world that has morons, and those morons have to be taught by men with academic credentials. Who's gonna do it? You? You, kwame? You, WhippingBoy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for little snowflakes and you curse the tenured professor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping out of school, while tragic, probably saved money. And my entitled existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is pretty sweet! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me behind that podium! You need me behind that podium! We use words like "peer reviewed", "vacation time", "office hours", "teaching assistants". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending my job. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very education that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pencil, and grade a report. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think I am entitled to!
 
2013-02-15 01:48:06 PM

FreetardoRivera: Colleges exist to make money and more students equals more buckos.


Name one public institution that has posted a profit in the past 25 years.  The purpose has never been to make money.

bdub77: Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach. So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.


The problem with what you think here is that if students pass low level math courses and go on to enroll in upper level math courses, that creates additional tuition money, which opens up funding to hire more people.  You've got some kind of insidious institutional plan to crush students academically, and it's not true.  There are definitely professors who think their personal charge is to guard the gates to knowledge, but there are far fewer of those people than you think.
 
2013-02-15 01:49:13 PM

kwame: You have a large number of imaginary people as a sample group?  That's not very sound science.


He also complaints about physicists based on imaginary versions of them. Then he backtracks his ranting at clouds by imagining a different group it is pointed out how stupid what he said was.

Valiente:I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".
 
If these anti-education threads aren't full of trolls, then there are an awful lot more "so I told that teachin' lady the only letters I need to know are U, S, and A" folks than I ever realized.
 
2013-02-15 01:49:16 PM

p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?


Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.
 
2013-02-15 01:49:22 PM
bdub77:
Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses...

Professors aren't teachers!

By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.  Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.  They are not there to teach.

Professors are valuable because they have expertise in their fields, but they are not teachers.

\if you need someone to "teach" you when you're in college, you either need to hire a tutor or you're just too dumb for college
 
2013-02-15 01:50:15 PM

Nurglitch: Carn: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

Biology is chemistry, chemistry is physics, physics is math, and math is boring.

/math and computer science

Assume a spherical computer science student...


Round is a shape!
 
2013-02-15 01:50:28 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Bravely ran away, away!

OK, fine.  What is it you were planning to debate with me that you never actually came out and said?

johnny_vegas: because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)

I'm opposed to tenure because of the way it can be abused.  That said, there's something kind of fun about a crotchety old chemistry professor who will tell the provost to kiss his ass.


You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.
 
2013-02-15 01:51:56 PM
As someone who has some weird, fricken crazy problem remembering whatever I'm reading from books, I am *NOT* getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2013-02-15 01:53:27 PM

UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.


tvmedia.ign.com
 
2013-02-15 01:54:09 PM

Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.


I always loved the university - Purdue also has a highly regarded Communications program

Com VistaIn August 2008, Com Vista, a guide to programs of study in communication-related departments, ranked Purdue's Department of Communication No. 2 in health communication and No. 4 in interpersonal and organizational communication. The rankings are based on faculty's publications in the 50 journals related to the field.

Purdue's communication department also placed in the top 10 for specific areas of study, including No. 1 (tie) in the area of narrative and No. 2 in the area of communication and emotion.
 
2013-02-15 01:55:18 PM

Rapmaster2000: p the boiler:

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?


I know someone who majored in English at Georgia Tech.  Made no sense to me at all.
 
2013-02-15 01:55:26 PM

p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.

I always loved the university - Purdue also has a highly regarded Communications program

Com VistaIn August 2008, Com Vista, a guide to programs of study in communication-related departments, ranked Purdue's Department of Communication No. 2 in health communication and No. 4 in interpersonal and organizational communication. The rankings are based on faculty's publications in the 50 journals related to the field.

Purdue's communication department also placed in the top 10 for specific areas of study, including No. 1 (tie) in the area of narrative and No. 2 in the area of communication and emotion.


I had no idea.  I only left the engineering lab to go to the bar.
 
2013-02-15 01:55:32 PM

johnny_vegas: You can't handle the truth!

[estb.msn.com image 400x300]

Son, we live in a world that has morons, and those morons have to be taught by men with academic credentials. Who's gonna do it? You? You, kwame? You, WhippingBoy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for little snowflakes and you curse the tenured professor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping out of school, while tragic, probably saved money. And my entitled existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is pretty sweet! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me behind that podium! You need me behind that podium! We use words like "peer reviewed", "vacation time", "office hours", "teaching assistants". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending my job. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very education that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pencil, and grade a report. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think I am entitled to!


*stands and salutes*


/would have used "up in that ivory tower" rather than "behind that podium."
 
2013-02-15 01:55:41 PM

FizixJunkee: Professors aren't teachers!


Do they teach?

If so, they are teachers.

All the courses in my major were taught by professors.

FizixJunkee: By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.


True.

FizixJunkee: Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.


So they should, in your opinion, just hand you a curriculum and then test you once at the end of the semester? 

Because lectures, class discussions, and labwork are all teaching, whether you want to admit it or not.

If all students needed was a curriculum and testing, professors wouldn't be required at all.
 
2013-02-15 01:56:27 PM

WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.


It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant
 
2013-02-15 01:57:06 PM

dittybopper: ne so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:


1. No Fark (that'd kinda suck)
2. No way to verify the news you are reading without just taking the words of those on your local TV station (that would kinda suck)
3. If you were driving around late at night, and needed gas, you'd be SOL without a computer operating the debit/credit card machine on the pump.
4. Finding your friends/family/etc would be extremely expensive, so you would probably not keep track of them (Facebook, pipl, etc.)
5. Driving directions would be without a GPS (and we know how horrible driving directions from a random idiot can be).
6. No MRIs, CT scans, or medical imaging of any real use outside of X-rays.
7. Probably no oil as the computational power needed to find it wouldn't exist.
8. Most cars now have computers built into them for debugging, etc.
9. Building, bridges, and infrastructure are better designed now due to CAD.
10. Taxes by hand would be a huge pain and would probably require you to hire an accountant who knew the laws.
11. Probably the most important for those on Fark... little to no access to porn.

etc. etc. etc.

Next time you meet an IT guy... hug him, and thank him for giving you access to porn.
 
2013-02-15 01:57:11 PM

FizixJunkee: By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.


Which happens to be the exact opposite of what is taught for 12+ years of primary education.
 
2013-02-15 01:57:30 PM

FizixJunkee: Rapmaster2000: p the boiler:

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?

I know someone who majored in English at Georgia Tech.  Made no sense to me at all.


Well, I suppose that if you're a chick at GT then you have your pick of men.  They're engineers, but still... men.

That or you could wander over to GSU and check out the ridiculous amount of trashy women there.

/mba from gsu
 
2013-02-15 01:57:56 PM

Wadded Beef: This article focuses on lower-income kids, but when I was in college I had some roommates my freshman year (we all shared a suite in the crappy dorm basement) that came from some serious wealth and were actually only there for the bong action and skiing. Their study habits were below zilch. Not exactly a shock when they didn't make it back after winter break and we never saw them again.


Had a roommate freshman year who was damn near nocturnal. He'd be rolling in from the night when I was leaving for class in the morning and I wouldn't see him again until the next morning. Anyway, he came from money. His dad had given him $10k of spending money for our first term, which was roughly Sept-Dec. He managed to spend it on all booze, drugs, and musical equipment for the "band" he was starting by early November. He didn't make it back after winter break.
 
2013-02-15 01:58:16 PM

johnny_vegas: palelizard:
If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.


[25.media.tumblr.com image 480x360]


Well f'in done.
/awesome


"Praise the humanities, my boy. That'll make them think you're broadminded!" -- Winston Churchill
 
2013-02-15 01:58:30 PM

Rapmaster2000: I had no idea.  I only left the engineering lab to go to the bar.


I met my wife at Jakes - Purdue did a lot of great things for my future
 
2013-02-15 02:00:00 PM

p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: I had no idea.  I only left the engineering lab to go to the bar.

I met my wife at Jakes - Purdue did a lot of great things for my future


I worked at Yacht Club and Tom's.  If those still existed when you were there.

I met my ex-wife at Yacht Club or as the people who went there called it - Stacks.
 
2013-02-15 02:00:35 PM

FizixJunkee: I know someone who majored in English at Georgia Tech. Made no sense to me at all.


Because a school with a reputation like Georgia Tech can still pull in accomplished faculty, even in fields that aren't engineering.  Because he/she wanted to go to Georgia Tech but English was the right degree for him/her.   There are tons of reasons.  It's a personal decision.  That said, I don't see where they offer a degree in just English.
 
2013-02-15 02:01:31 PM
Hey I resent that remark, subby!
 
2013-02-15 02:02:23 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant


There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"
 
2013-02-15 02:02:34 PM

Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: I had no idea.  I only left the engineering lab to go to the bar.

I met my wife at Jakes - Purdue did a lot of great things for my future

I worked at Yacht Club and Tom's.  If those still existed when you were there.

I met my ex-wife at Yacht Club or as the people who went there called it - Stacks.


They were there (Class of '98) - not Greek, so did not do Stacks - Tom's was my place though - Penny beer night with the $5 mixed drink pitchers caused a blackout or two. It wasa sad day when I heard Tom's was being torn down. I also enjoyed the upstairs of Boiler Room
 
2013-02-15 02:02:51 PM
College, sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't.

College was boring to me so I just started contracting in the biz I was studying for.  I love comp sci :D

... it's like a unregulated magical unicorn which if you're good at it, you just get piles of money tossed at you (aka rainbow poop, the only poop you can spend!).
 
2013-02-15 02:04:21 PM

kwame: FizixJunkee: I know someone who majored in English at Georgia Tech. Made no sense to me at all.

Because a school with a reputation like Georgia Tech can still pull in accomplished faculty, even in fields that aren't engineering.  Because he/she wanted to go to Georgia Tech but English was the right degree for him/her.   There are tons of reasons.  It's a personal decision.  That said, I don't see where they offer a degree in just English.


That is one of my two undergrad degrees - it is useful for people preparing for Law School (my original intent) and also those preparing to teach English at a post k-12 level - a lot of marketing copy writers get that degree too
 
2013-02-15 02:05:41 PM

dittybopper: I could live my life quite well without a computer.  In fact, I *HAVE* done so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:

[oi47.tinypic.com image 639x373]


My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.

/Friends with tradesmen.


Me neither, but I can order the tools or look up the skills in a matter of minutes thanks to the transistor. Though, I guess given both of our arguments, that makes the real heroes the tool manufacturing experts. Let's face it: you, me, a professional plumber, a professional mechanic - we're pretty much all farked if we have to make our own wrenches.
 
2013-02-15 02:05:58 PM

FizixJunkee: bdub77:
Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses...

Professors aren't teachers!

By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.  Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.  They are not there to teach.

Professors are valuable because they have expertise in their fields, but they are not teachers.

\if you need someone to "teach" you when you're in college, you either need to hire a tutor or you're just too dumb for college


Wrong. I don't know what high school you went to, but the purpose of college is to teach kids to learn on their own. High school is a horrible environment for that, for multiple reasons, including the social setting, the ability of most high school teachers, parental discipline (which doesn't always translate to self discpline, even for those whose parents aren't around all the time), not to mention that many who go on to college are bored by how easy high school is and were never challenged.

Professors who can't teach first and second year math because they are 'scholars and aren't responsible for teaching' shouldn't be in the farking classroom.

High school to college is a very difficult year the first year, because of the lack of parental supervision, a new social setting, differences of learning styles and methods from high school to college, diversity, and so on. Colleges should have stronger first and second year programs precisely because of this.

Should colleges molly coddle everyone? No. But they should give students some breathing room. 18-year olds are rarely mature enough to understand the implications of what they are learning.
 
2013-02-15 02:06:06 PM

WhippingBoy: I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"


I could go on to list all the productive ways people have made an ass-ton of money and contributed to the world with all of those majors.  There's no such thing as a worthless major, only a worthless job candidate who didn't put his back into his degree.
 
2013-02-15 02:06:40 PM

Valiente: You're right. I was using "physicist" in the sense of a trope (a kinda English-major word) to express a "Big Bang" type of scientist who is great on theory and poor in practice. I should have used "cultural studies M.A.".

Not everyone should be in college, and it is arguable that allowing more people in has not only lowered the bar overmuch in the name of "equality", but has wasted a great deal of time and money that would've been better spent in more productive ways. I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however.


I *Do* agree with this. At the same time, we'd need to pay people who *aren't* college graduates a better wage. I actually have a HUGE degree of respect for anyone who works in the services industry (I could not do that without murdering someone), but they barely get enough to survive as-is, and we as a society tend to look down on folks with technical degrees (for reasons I cannot fathom.)

Not really sure what the fix is. =/.
 
2013-02-15 02:13:42 PM

bdub77: Class size in first year college math and science programs is a very real problem. Those programs actively try to weed out students, not on the basis of 'academic ability' - whatever the fark that means - but because they don't have enough people capable of teaching the higher level courses and because they can get kids to pay the same amount of money for liberal arts courses that are cheaper to teach.


Academic departments generally want to increase upper-level enrollment in their majors, not decrease it.  And departments have plenty of people to teach the higher level courses.  Teaching the gigantic lower-level courses is the problem; they need an army of TAs and graders.

However, most of the students in their first-year service courses are not potential majors in their department.  For example, most of the students in intro math/chem/phys courses are prospective engineers, not prospective math/chem/phys majors.  Whatever "weeding out" goes on in service courses usually affects students who wouldn't have taken the department's upper-level courses to begin with.

So they purposely make the courses more challenging than they have to be, with course texts that are as dry and terribly written as they are expensive.

That's hilarious.  First-year STEM courses are usually ridiculously easy.  They manage to weed lots of students out anyway.  There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

I agree the textbooks are dry, but most of them at that level are decently written.  (The bad texts are upper-level, written by pure researchers.)  And the expense has to do with book publishers, not nefarious university scheming.
 
2013-02-15 02:14:05 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: Bravely ran away, away!

OK, fine.  What is it you were planning to debate with me that you never actually came out and said?

johnny_vegas: because that process and the associated (and diverse) points of view usually cause the most discussion (or angst maybe)

I'm opposed to tenure because of the way it can be abused.  That said, there's something kind of fun about a crotchety old chemistry professor who will tell the provost to kiss his ass.


I'd rather have the few people that earn tenure and use it later to sit on their laurels a bit prior to retirement, than have a situation in which every professor feels they have to curtail their speech in class to not tick off that new department chair/college dean/university admin/major corporate donor who doesn't think twice about replacing people who think differently or question precious traditions.
 
2013-02-15 02:16:36 PM
It would be nice if public schools stopped demonizing any option other than college.  If a kid is clearly not college material, help him/her find a technical school or certification program.  I see so many women in their late 20s struggling to get their certification for Medical Assistant while holding down two jobs.  If they had gone into that program right after high school, they could have been making a livable wage right off the bat and would be doing much better.  High schools just focus on being able to say they sent a good percentage of their graduating class on to college without considering how many of those students will actually complete their degree vs. how many will be saddled with debt and soul-crushing disappointment.
 
2013-02-15 02:16:41 PM

Gabrielmot: dittybopper: ne so, albeit when I was kid.   I can't think of a way that my life would be measurably worse without a computer.  I'd have to do calculations by hand.  So what?  I've got a few slide rules around, and I've built mechanical calculators out of LEGOs.   I've even got a manual typewriter:

1. No Fark (that'd kinda suck)
2. No way to verify the news you are reading without just taking the words of those on your local TV station (that would kinda suck)
3. If you were driving around late at night, and needed gas, you'd be SOL without a computer operating the debit/credit card machine on the pump.
4. Finding your friends/family/etc would be extremely expensive, so you would probably not keep track of them (Facebook, pipl, etc.)
5. Driving directions would be without a GPS (and we know how horrible driving directions from a random idiot can be).
10. Taxes by hand would be a huge pain and would probably require you to hire an accountant who knew the laws.
11. Probably the most important for those on Fark... little to no access to porn.

etc. etc. etc.

Next time you meet an IT guy... hug him, and thank him for giving you access to porn.


5. Thomas Guide & maps from AAA.  Never got lost before I had GPS in my pocket. :)
10. I hug my tax accountant since he keeps my money where it belongs.  He's like a magical unicorn too that saves me several thousand dollars every year.  Honestly don't know why anyone does their own taxes.

Mine is a fan of the Duke, looks like a piece of leather and has like 50 tool bars on his browser.  Have a late friend who was a master class accountant who couldn't operate a computer to save his life.  Maybe that's the key to finding a good accountant.  Find one who can use their computer *just enough* to number crunch and efile.
 
2013-02-15 02:16:43 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"

I could go on to list all the productive ways people have made an ass-ton of money and contributed to the world with all of those majors.  There's no such thing as a worthless major, only a worthless job candidate who didn't put his back into his degree.


Again, I agree completely.

Instead of "useless majors", I should have said "majors that useless people tend to take". I apologize for any offense.
 
2013-02-15 02:16:56 PM

Ambitwistor: That's hilarious. First-year STEM courses are usually ridiculously easy. They manage to weed lots of students out anyway. There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...


YMMV. I never encountered an 'easy' STEM class when I was at college other than maybe Multivariate Calculus, but it was almost 20 years ago.
 
2013-02-15 02:17:26 PM
Man, some people ITT sure have their proverbial panties in a wad.

Education good.

There.  Now calm the fark down.
 
2013-02-15 02:17:40 PM
I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....
 
2013-02-15 02:17:56 PM

FizixJunkee: By the time you enter college, you should have the skills to learn on your own.  Your professors are there to structure the curriculum, to make sure all students are exposed to certain predetermined topics, and to assess how well you've learned the material.  They are not there to teach.  Professors are valuable because they have expertise in their fields, but they are not teachers.


Professors absolutely are there to teach, and always have been.  Yes, you're supposed to be able to learn things on your own, but that's always true, and doesn't mean you don't need anyone to teach you anything.
 
2013-02-15 02:21:46 PM

kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant


At my school, Mathematics & Sciences had it's own college. Business another. The College of Liberal Arts was your psych, journalism, women's studies, theater & dance, music, philosophy, etc. Outside of graphic design and maybe child development they're weren't terribly useful majors. That said, I don't think they were academically incompetent students; the incompetent ones drop out. Even the least useful fields of study require some minimal competency.
 
2013-02-15 02:21:53 PM

Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....


Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU
 
2013-02-15 02:22:17 PM

bdub77: Ambitwistor: That's hilarious. First-year STEM courses are usually ridiculously easy. They manage to weed lots of students out anyway. There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

YMMV. I never encountered an 'easy' STEM class when I was at college other than maybe Multivariate Calculus, but it was almost 20 years ago.


Well, let's put it this way:  first-year STEM classes are far, far easier than upper-level STEM classes.  Anyone who doesn't make it through a first-year class isn't going to make it through an upper-level class either.  In that sense, whatever "weed-out" role they serve is legitimate:  the people who don't make it through them aren't going to make it through a related degree.
 
2013-02-15 02:23:33 PM

p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU


Go U!
 
2013-02-15 02:23:48 PM

Ambitwistor: There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...


I have been trying to tutor for a student taking Algebra Based Physics, and it is HARD. I honestly believe that Calc based physics is just simply *easier* to teach and comprehend than algebra based, because, well, that's how physics was *derived*.
 
2013-02-15 02:24:32 PM

uncoveror: College has been dumbed down to the point that anyone can get in. They rake in a lot of cash that way, but there are still people who can't graduate. Once it is dumbed down enough even for them, a degree will no longer have any meaning, and we are already stepping down that slippery slope.


A b.s. pretty much has no meaning now. It's the modern day high school diploma.
 
2013-02-15 02:26:42 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.


You hurt me :(

Sounds like a debate on BBT
 
2013-02-15 02:28:13 PM

utsagrad123: [25.media.tumblr.com image 500x376]

Some foke'll never eat a skunk but then again some fokel, like Cletus, the slack jawed yokel!


or loose a toe
 
2013-02-15 02:28:39 PM
I'm a humanities professor at a state university. My cushy salary is leeched off the tax dollars of you bootstrappy folk with your "useful" degrees and practical hardscrabble wisdom you got from the University of Real Life, etc.

I guess I should defend the honor of the dreaded lllllllibrul arts, but I mostly use Fark to kill time at work, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend Friday afternoon in my office.

See you guys Tuesday!
 
2013-02-15 02:28:51 PM
Part of the problem is that people are told "do what you love and the money will follow".

While I actually believe this to be true, a lot of people seem to interpret "doing what you love" as meaning "take whatever bores you the least".

If you're not already doing "it" in some capacity by the time you hit University, you don't "love" it.
 
2013-02-15 02:30:23 PM

Ambitwistor: Well, let's put it this way: first-year STEM classes are far, far easier than upper-level STEM classes. Anyone who doesn't make it through a first-year class isn't going to make it through an upper-level class either. In that sense, whatever "weed-out" role they serve is legitimate: the people who don't make it through them aren't going to make it through a related degree.


This is true, although I also wish to argue that I've found (via tutoring undergrads who seem to grasp things *very quickly* when I do it) that some professors have *no idea* how to alter their teaching style.

I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*. Much like physics majors don't need a rigorous proof of why spherical integration is r^2 sin(theta) dr dtheta dphi: while a rigorous proof *exists*, the cheaty, handwavy proof (If we shrink everything down REALLY small, a chunk of area dV looks like a cube, and look! This side corresponds to dr, this side to  rdtheta, and this side to r sin(theta) dphi!  (A proof which I have seen make mathematicians *cringe*.)

That's just my opinion, mind, and I *am* currently only a grad student.
 
2013-02-15 02:30:38 PM

Felgraf: Ambitwistor: There are plenty of students in calculus-based physics classes who never fully mastered algebra, for example ...

I have been trying to tutor for a student taking Algebra Based Physics, and it is HARD. I honestly believe that Calc based physics is just simply *easier* to teach and comprehend than algebra based, because, well, that's how physics was *derived*.


I agree, if you also understand calculus!  If you don't, then obviously algebra-based physics will be easier to understand.
 
2013-02-15 02:31:12 PM

Skraeling: limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.

You hurt me :(

Sounds like a debate on BBT


imgs.xkcd.com

/hot
//mandatory
 
2013-02-15 02:31:15 PM

Hyggelig lurker: Is this the thread were people confuse an education with a vocation and cry about the cost?

/Worked out well for Dick Grasso


The trick is to get an education AND a vocation... and use said vocation to fund education.
 
2013-02-15 02:31:51 PM

p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU


DePaul
 
2013-02-15 02:32:43 PM

Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".


You sound like you are deeply in debt
 
2013-02-15 02:33:14 PM

Felgraf: I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*.


I agree, and FWIW, most of the intro physics classes I've seen take the "engineering" approach, because that's what most of the students are.  The physics majors get bored, because they like to see where the laws come from.  (I know of a few counter-examples, such as courses that start off with symmetry and conservation laws and go from there ...)
 
2013-02-15 02:34:05 PM

Frank N Stein: p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU

DePaul


That was in the 4 - UC and Loyola the others. Do you have a summer internship lined up yet?
 
2013-02-15 02:36:14 PM

p the boiler: Frank N Stein: p the boiler: Frank N Stein: I'm an English major at an expensive private school, so I'm getting a kick out of some of these comments....

Based on your profile I have it down to 4 schools - I'll go with NU

DePaul

That was in the 4 - UC and Loyola the others. Do you have a summer internship lined up yet?


Nope. Ill spend the summer working on boats. It's kinda what I do. I'm working on my captain's license right now.
 
2013-02-15 02:43:58 PM

dittybopper: My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.


 I come from a background of academia, working in a business environment full of empty advanced degrees, and having a hobby of restoring automobiles and machining parts.
 I can safely tell you the level of technical knowledge, common sense, and problem solving skills required of repairing cars (or any skilled trade for that matter) usually far exceeds the demands of most any classic cubicle farm business degree job.
 In fact, the level of skills required for a good machinist, particularly high-level technical knowledge and mathematics, exceeds that required of most any engineering degree. Engineering is easy, being a machinist is a frighteningly high barrier to reach.

 Working with hands =/= ignorant

 The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.
 
2013-02-15 02:48:49 PM

Ambitwistor: I agree, if you also understand calculus! If you don't, then obviously algebra-based physics will be easier to understand.


Well, yes, this is true. It's more that my brain is going "Wait how in gods name do I *explain* how these formulas are related without using calculus?" And to an extent, I've realized I can't, not exactly. They'll just have to memorize 1/2 a t^2, instead of understanding where the 1/2 and t^2 term comes from...

Ambitwistor: Felgraf: I really think you *cannot* teach physics to engineers the same way you teach it to physicists (at least the intro level classes). That is, you do not need (and *should not*) necessarily spend large ammounts of time doing rigorous proofs of the equations, because *they don't need them*.

I agree, and FWIW, most of the intro physics classes I've seen take the "engineering" approach, because that's what most of the students are.  The physics majors get bored, because they like to see where the laws come from.  (I know of a few counter-examples, such as courses that start off with symmetry and conservation laws and go from there ...)


I get the feeling a lot of the professors at this school *do* go the physics route. I've got one tutoring student who comes out of class confused, but after an hour or so of tutoring it just seems to click for them. Granted, I know this is the teacher's first time teaching a full class (and we do some sort of... weird standardization thing here, where all the teachers have to teach intro physics atmore-or-less-the-same-pace).
 
2013-02-15 02:50:45 PM

CliChe Guevara: The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.


I actually agree with that, despite physicists having a (... somewhat, unfortunately, *deserved*) stereotype of looking down at folks for not being physicists.
 
2013-02-15 02:52:07 PM
Grade school should be difficult. High school should be difficult. College should be difficult. Grad school should be difficult. It's a winnowing process: you'll get a good number of highly motivated, decently intelligent folks who move through at each level (of course, a good number of very intelligent people will find something more interesting to do; many who make it through grad school, for instance, do so not because they're blindingly intelligent but because they're smart enough and have vast reserves of patience and drive). That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do. We should be able to assume that those who make it through college have the basic skills, attitudes, and motivation to be useful. Sadly, we cannot do so as things stand.
 
2013-02-15 02:52:17 PM
Look.  I do this:
www.skm.com

My customers are people who do this:
electriciansanantoniotx.info

and this:
www.foleyinc.com

There is a definite age gap.  We need more electricians.  I keep dealing with the same people I've been dealing with for 15 years and many are nearing retirement.  Tech school and apprenticeships are the way to go.

It is good honest, decent paying work and at least you can point to projects you had a hand in.  That is mine. I've left my mark.
 
2013-02-15 02:57:49 PM
As my father used to say upon bringing home a poor report card, "The world needs ditch diggers too.  Maybe you're just not that smart and digging holes is your destiny."

/would usually get straight A's the following semester
 
2013-02-15 03:01:07 PM

caddisfly: As my father used to say upon bringing home a poor report card, "The world needs ditch diggers too.  Maybe you're just not that smart and digging holes is your destiny."

/would usually get straight A's the following semester


98% of poor report cards have access to a refrigerator.
 
2013-02-15 03:01:59 PM

Master Sphincter: Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".

You sound like you are deeply in debt


By what logic do you conclude that?

FWIW, my only debt is one mortgage for a condo that I'm turning a rental profit on (providing the market goes back up before  any major repairs kick in, but I should be good even then) and the waterfront home I live in (which doesn't make me wealthy, it makes me someone who lives in michigan where waterfront is affordable for the middle class).  The first mortgage has a 5% interest rate at 30 years (23 left), the second has a 2.85% 15 year.  The first is covered by rent as I said, the 2nd only amounts to one week's pay per month with the taxes and everything else rolled in.

You seem like someone who can't defend their argument on it's own basis and has to make assumptions about the individual you are talking to instead.
 
2013-02-15 03:08:41 PM

feanorn: That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do.


If an employer can't evaluate people without having some educational filtration system to tell him that person is a good candidate, he has big problems.
 
2013-02-15 03:16:39 PM

johnny_vegas: You can't handle the truth!

[estb.msn.com image 400x300]

Son, we live in a world that has morons, and those morons have to be taught by men with academic credentials. Who's gonna do it? You? You, kwame? You, WhippingBoy? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom! You weep for little snowflakes and you curse the tenured professor. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that dropping out of school, while tragic, probably saved money. And my entitled existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, is pretty sweet! You don't want the truth, because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me behind that podium! You need me behind that podium! We use words like "peer reviewed", "vacation time", "office hours", "teaching assistants". We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending my job. You use them as a punchline! I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very education that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "Thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a pencil, and grade a report. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think I am entitled to!


I heart you so much right now.
 
2013-02-15 03:17:49 PM

kwame: feanorn: That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do.

If an employer can't evaluate people without having some educational filtration system to tell him that person is a good candidate, he has big problems.


I overstated things. Will there always be people who are plenty competent and able outside the system? You bet. Will the system always work? Of course not. Some folks keep falling upward. But there should be a very high correlation between making it through and being at a certain level of competence. Otherwise, there is little reason to have the system. And that's the direction we're going, which is too bad.
 
2013-02-15 03:21:27 PM

limeyfellow: mamoru: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.

Or psychology. That was the big one for a lot of the dolphin huggers that dropped their marine biology major after discovering that it's actually science and actually hard. ;)

Don't be silly. Biology isn't real science. Only physics and chemistry is.


Obligatory xkcd:
http://xkcd.com/435/
 
2013-02-15 03:26:01 PM

feanorn: Some folks keep falling upward. But there should be a very high correlation between making it through and being at a certain level of competence. Otherwise, there is little reason to have the system. And that's the direction we're going, which is too bad.


I think you're overreacting to the current level of college graduates.  Are they all exceptionally talented and bright?  No, but they are almost all much better prepared than a high school student who has been working for four years.  There will always be a handful of people who skate through with minimal effort and learn nothing.  That's an extremely small number, though.

I don't think everything about college should be difficult, either.  Some of it is about getting exposure - in some states, students come from small rural towns and meet people and have experiences that make them better employees and better people.  That's not tough, but it's not always available if you just hop out of high school and start to work.
 
2013-02-15 03:28:06 PM

p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.

I always loved the university - Purdue also has a highly regarded Communications program

Com VistaIn August 2008, Com Vista, a guide to programs of study in communication-related departments, ranked Purdue's Department of Communication No. 2 in health communication and No. 4 in interpersonal and organizational communication. The rankings are based on faculty's publications in the 50 journals related to the field.

Purdue's communication department also placed in the top 10 for specific areas of study, including No. 1 (tie) in the area of narrative and No. 2 in the area of communication and emotion.


Bragging about a comm degree. That's a new one. Not even the football players in your class did that.
 
2013-02-15 03:31:19 PM
I usually (usually... not constantly) find that people in college or with degrees tend to be more intelligent (or at least have more wherewithal) to draw conclusions about things they encounter.

A lot of vocations that don't require college require you to be smart at that profession, but outside of that... not nearly as much. If this went away, I'd be less adverse to the whole "you don't need to go to college" talk.
 
2013-02-15 03:33:40 PM

Valiente: I only have thousands of embittered and indebted 30 year old liberal-arts-degree-possessing baristas as my sample group, however


Or selling shoes at Dick's sporting goods.
 
2013-02-15 03:36:44 PM

Silverstaff: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible

So, 4 years?

Around these parts you aren't allowed to take the GED test before age 18, they just changed the law so that you can't drop out before 18, and no school district I know of lets people skip grades or be promoted ahead (that would get them out of their system early, thus depriving them of precious Federal subsidy dollars).


Not that this is the sample group he was addressing, but graduating high school early is a new trend - especially in college athletics....

http://m.jacksonville.com/sports/premium-sports/2013-01-19/story/sch oo l-already-out-super-75-football-prospects-many-whom-are
 
2013-02-15 03:38:21 PM
Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.
 
2013-02-15 03:40:03 PM

jst3p: We need more of these:

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/education/high-schools-offering- as sociate-degrees-ensure-students-job-college-ready-article-1.1213538


THIS!
 
2013-02-15 03:40:40 PM

Marine1: I usually (usually... not constantly) find that people in college or with degrees tend to be more intelligent (or at least have more wherewithal) to draw conclusions about things they encounter.


I consider myself an outlier (as I haven't had a degree or been in school for most of my adult life), but I would tend to agree, in general.

Marine1: A lot of vocations that don't require college require you to be smart at that profession, but outside of that... not nearly as much. If this went away, I'd be less adverse to the whole "you don't need to go to college" talk.


There are a lot of people who aren't going to be "smart" outside their profession no mater how much water you lead them to. I think we should accept that for most people their "peak" is pretty low.
 
2013-02-15 03:42:38 PM

MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.


inothernewz.com


"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"
 
2013-02-15 03:42:53 PM

johnny_vegas: You can't handle the truth!

[estb.msn.com image 400x300]

favorited

 
2013-02-15 03:42:57 PM
So kids stay in school until they hit the weed-out class, yeah, sounds about right.  I am pretty sure it is set up that way by intention.  For us, all business, science, math and engineering majors had to take Macro Econ first semester junior year.  it was structured as a Cal1.5 class with real world applications.  About 20% passed the class the first time.  If you failed you had 3 options; take it again, change to lib arts or drop out.  I knew people on their 2nd,3rd and even 4th time trying.  Get passed that class and you had a 90% chance of graduating. 70% of those that could not get passed it ended up dropping out.

If you were smart, you took pre-cal 1st year and cal1 2nd year
 
2013-02-15 03:43:51 PM

Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: 1. Finish high school as fast as possible
2. spend 2 years in a technical school and get a skill
3. get your bachelor's in a field that will use your technical skills
4.Profit

/maybe not profit in lot's of green, but in enough to live decently and some career satisfaction at least

That's nice.  The average college degree also results in a profit far above and beyond the cost of going to school.  Even the "bullshiat" ones like liberal arts.

So here is the thing: if you are going to advise someone based on the average result, then college is still a good suggestion for just most people capable of graduating.  If you are going to advise the masses based on society, as it seems people like you often do, then you have recognize that there is limited demand for the various "technical skills" in this country.  Plumbers may be doing quite well, but I've certainly never had trouble getting one to show up when I needed one.  What do you think happens to that trade when the number of them doubles? They will all get half the work, and be doing it for cheaper due to the competition for that work.

So it isn't some solution to the problems of society to tell everyone to stop getting those hurr durr libby arts majors and biatching about many people's interest in learning for its own sake.

It is really tiresome to see such a complicated problem as underemployment in a world of increasing globalized competition and robotic improvements be 'solved' with "hey ya'll, we can all get technical degrees".

You sound like you are deeply in debt

By what logic do you conclude that?

FWIW, my only debt is one mortgage for a condo that I'm turning a rental profit on (providing the market goes back up before  any major repairs kick in, but I should be good even then) and the waterfront home I live in (which doesn't make me wealthy, it makes me someone who lives in michigan where waterfront is affordable for the middle class).  The first mor ...


Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements
 
2013-02-15 03:46:46 PM

jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.




"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"


Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.
 
2013-02-15 03:46:54 PM

pxsteel: So kids stay in school until they hit the weed-out class, yeah, sounds about right.  I am pretty sure it is set up that way by intention.  For us, all business, science, math and engineering majors had to take Macro Econ first semester junior year.  it was structured as a Cal1.5 class with real world applications.  About 20% passed the class the first time.  If you failed you had 3 options; take it again, change to lib arts or drop out.  I knew people on their 2nd,3rd and even 4th time trying.  Get passed that class and you had a 90% chance of graduating. 70% of those that could not get passed it ended up dropping out.

If you were smart, you took pre-cal 1st year and cal1 2nd year


For me it was second year:
Intro to Basic Circuit Analysis I (first semester). Class size: 138.
Intro to Basic Circuit Analysis II (second semester). Class size: 42

A LOT of people discovered that being the top math student in their small-town high-school class didn't mean jack shiat in the real world.
 
2013-02-15 03:47:14 PM

Master Sphincter: Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements


Nah, I'm just calling you out for jumping to a personal attack, and a wildly assuming one at that, in lieu of supporting your own discussion points or responding to mine.

I'm just going to go ahead and mark you as troll now, between your posting and your account creation date.
 
2013-02-15 03:47:55 PM

MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.


Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.
 
2013-02-15 03:49:45 PM

jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.


A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.
 
2013-02-15 03:51:05 PM

MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.

A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.


It does. We are talking about college and you brought up student loans.

The internet, serious business.
 
2013-02-15 03:52:21 PM

feanorn: Grade school should be difficult. High school should be difficult. College should be difficult. Grad school should be difficult. It's a winnowing process: you'll get a good number of highly motivated, decently intelligent folks who move through at each level (of course, a good number of very intelligent people will find something more interesting to do; many who make it through grad school, for instance, do so not because they're blindingly intelligent but because they're smart enough and have vast reserves of patience and drive). That's what allows employers to find people who are actually competent, and who can be handed actual work to do. We should be able to assume that those who make it through college have the basic skills, attitudes, and motivation to be useful. Sadly, we cannot do so as things stand.


  Thats what I always figured the point of education is. Its not the content of a degree that is useful per se, but rather the skills (work ethic, patience, drive, critical thinking, research, focus, concentration, etc) that one needs to sucessfully complete a degree. People who complete a degree should (in theory) have these skills and should be able to apply them to any kind of job they do.

Its rare to find work directly related to many different degrees regarding specific content, unless you pursue a masters in your field or if you are especially bright and driven.  Even the so-called "useful degrees" in sciences etc were "useless" to my friends (for work in that exact subject) unless they continued and got a masters and more. Yet, everyone I know who has a degree still has a successful job,  just not in their exact field of study.  If you want a job in your exact field of study you get a vocation.  University gives you a set of skills that is useful regardless of content.  Does it require more imagination and drive to apply those skills in the workforce? Yes, but it also requires those skills to successfully complete a degree in university in the first place. I presume thats what employers are looking for, especially ones that require a degree in their employees.

  Why are farkers so damn bitter about "liberal arts" degrees?  Is it something peculiar to the education system in the US? Or are they just trolling? Are universities and colleges just pumping out degrees to people who don't actually acquire general university skills and therefore end up unemployable with a degree and crazy debt? Or is it just because the economy is suffering right now and therefore fewer jobs? I'm not from the States so I am not sure how how it works down there. My personal experience shows people with degrees are more successful than those without so I've always been baffled by Farks hostility.

(trades in the oil patch trumps EVERYONE)
 
2013-02-15 03:53:25 PM

jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: jst3p: MyRandomName: Want to fix it? Stop offering fixed borrowing amounts and instead tie it to major based on average bls salary. No more lending 100k for undergrad english at NYU. Force the majors who take only 12 units to get a job so they get a degree and work experience. Some countries in europe are already tying loan amounts to major.

"I don't understand, why don't they just borrow money from their parents if they want to go to college or start a small business?"

Absolutely brilliant retort having nothing to do with what I stated. What part of my statement says no college for the poor? The not wasting 100k on undergrad? How quaint. Nobody successful has ever come from a state school. Nobody successful has ever worjed through college. Brilliant retort.

Calm down tiger, I am not arguing with you. I just went for the cheap joke.

A joke tends to have at least a tangental relationship to the subject matter being discussed. Except for family guy episodes.

It does. We are talking about college and you brought up student loans.

The internet, serious business.


I've found that a number of people just don't "get" Fark.
 
2013-02-15 03:53:26 PM
When the secretary, the security guard, and the retail manager all need college degrees just to get in the door then yes, college must be for everyone.
 
2013-02-15 03:56:37 PM

DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.


Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/
 
2013-02-15 03:57:29 PM

WhippingBoy: I've found that a number of people just don't "get" Fark.


I am just going to chalk it up to a knee-jerk reaction to his believing I was arguing with him. Some people are sensitive.
 
2013-02-15 03:59:21 PM

BgJonson79: DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.

Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/


The world needs the unemployed and downtrodden, too.

Mostly so that people like me can feel smug and better about ourselves.
 
2013-02-15 04:07:23 PM

WhippingBoy: BgJonson79: DrewCurtisJr: Higher education isn't for everyone, true, but then stop employers from requiring college degrees for every single position.

Thanks to computer automation, jobs aren't for everyone, either :-/

The world needs the unemployed and downtrodden, too.

Mostly so that people like me can feel smug and better about ourselves.


^ If everyone was STEM, a new butt of jokes would emerge. My money's would be on the statisticians.
 
2013-02-15 04:17:08 PM

WhippingBoy: kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"


Anecdotally speaking?

The IT guy
 
2013-02-15 04:18:49 PM

Rindred: WhippingBoy: kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"

Anecdotally speaking?

The IT guy


This IT guy has a good job with a pretty good salary and no college degree (or loans), so he is getting a kick out of your reply.
 
2013-02-15 04:27:15 PM

kwame: What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment.


Oh lighten up, Francis. I was poking fun.
 
2013-02-15 04:29:06 PM

Valiente: Redneck jokes aside, we should have built far more technical colleges than universities in the last 30 years, and we never should have pulled apart the time-honoured practice of trades apprenticeship.

I've needed more plumbers than physicists in my life, and I have never needed someone with a PhD in Dyke Consciousness and a minor in The Light Comedy of Sylvia Plath.. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course, but it's been easier to teach myself welding and small engine repair than to try and find someone qualified under $100/hr. Even with inflation, that's still hooker money to me.

North America is now officially the "C Ship" Douglas Adams warned us about.


This, so much this.
 
2013-02-15 04:33:56 PM

MyRandomName: p the boiler: Rapmaster2000: p the boiler: Since we like to generalize here on Fark about the failings of Liberal Arts majors, I think I will throw out how at least we got laid in college and will have gotten more tail than you oh so intelligent STEM majors.

Some of us petty LA majors do happen to also find well paying careers, and we tend to be a lot more attractive than you trolls - so we both have the opportunity to get attractive spouses (yours solely due to sugar spouses wanting to cash in). Since ours tend to find us attractive and also see that we aren't needy little biatches our significant others are less likely to cheat on us compared to you fat little tech geeks.

Generalizations, how do they work?

Dude, why did you go to Purdue to major in LA?  If you'd gone to IU you could have gotten more and better tail.

I always loved the university - Purdue also has a highly regarded Communications program

Com VistaIn August 2008, Com Vista, a guide to programs of study in communication-related departments, ranked Purdue's Department of Communication No. 2 in health communication and No. 4 in interpersonal and organizational communication. The rankings are based on faculty's publications in the 50 journals related to the field.

Purdue's communication department also placed in the top 10 for specific areas of study, including No. 1 (tie) in the area of narrative and No. 2 in the area of communication and emotion.

Bragging about a comm degree. That's a new one. Not even the football players in your class did that.


Bragging? I answered a question.

But that's ok, keep on thinking your degree makes you superior without knowing what someone else has accomplished with theirs. I'll let you masturbate on that
 
2013-02-15 04:35:26 PM

jst3p: Rindred: WhippingBoy: kwame: WhippingBoy: You said "What's cute is how you don't even understand the number of things wrong with that comment." and then failed to provide a single example of anything that was "wrong".

That's all I was getting at.

It's mostly because this statement gets tossed around in every higher education thread.

I'll address the only one I do every time.  The rest I'm tired of posting.  "Liberal arts" encompasses chemistry, math, anthropology, economics, physics, history, and many more.  To claim that's where academically incompetent students run is really ignorant

There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

I do see your point. Instead of "Liberal Arts", what should we call the "useless" majors then? (e.g. English Lit, Psychology, Gender Studies, Philosophy, etc.). "Humanities"? "Soft sciences"? "Starbucks U?"

Anecdotally speaking?

The IT guy

This IT guy has a good job with a pretty good salary and no college degree (or loans), so he is getting a kick out of your reply.


This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.
 
2013-02-15 04:38:15 PM

Glenford: Darth_Lukecash: I had always struggled in grade school and high school. So when I got to university, I studied my ads off.

Some of the other freshmen thought that memorization would solve their problems, didn't understand that they would be required to think.

Marketing major?


Graphic design/Journalsim actually. :-)
 
2013-02-15 04:40:38 PM

Rindred: This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.


I don't get it. Why do IT guys think that they're among the technologically elite? You're tolerated because you have the root password, and do the jobs that no one else really wants to do.
 
2013-02-15 04:46:37 PM

Moonfisher: It would be nice if public schools stopped demonizing any option other than college.  If a kid is clearly not college material, help him/her find a technical school or certification program.  I see so many women in their late 20s struggling to get their certification for Medical Assistant while holding down two jobs.  If they had gone into that program right after high school, they could have been making a livable wage right off the bat and would be doing much better.  High schools just focus on being able to say they sent a good percentage of their graduating class on to college without considering how many of those students will actually complete their degree vs. how many will be saddled with debt and soul-crushing disappointment.


This. I actually experienced the opposite problem. I went to a private, Catholic vocational (they called it "technical") high school and didn't get any counseling on colleges because, as the vice principal put it, "We get more grants from businesses if it's our diploma hanging in your office, not UCLA's." I still managed to graduate from college, but the only advice they gave me was showing me where the applications were.
 
2013-02-15 04:50:34 PM

WhippingBoy: Rindred: This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.

I don't get it. Why do IT guys think that they're among the technologically elite? You're tolerated because you have the root password, and do the jobs that no one else really wants to do.


Because the rest of you don't realize that "doing the jobs that no one else really wants to do" is actually letting cron run some shell scripts while we fark all day.
 
2013-02-15 04:55:04 PM

WhippingBoy: Rindred: This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.

I don't get it. Why do IT guys think that they're among the technologically elite? You're tolerated because you have the root password, and do the jobs that no one else really wants to do.


I don't consider myself one of the "elite," whatever that is. I describe my job as "50% glorified janitor, 50% grief counsellor."

My importance in relation to my past and present employers is keeping shiat running. So many people think "I'm a smart person - I should be able to fix this computer issue myself!" right up until they can't. Then I get a call. This is no different than plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, firemen, etc. I just happen to have a degree that is technically unrelated to what I do for a living.

But please, don't let me stop you for digging for a way to be offended at me for having a non-STEM degree. Carry on, o mighty Fark rager.
 
2013-02-15 05:00:29 PM
Jiminy Crickets, there are some sensitive snowflakes here.

i45.tinypic.com
Is that better?

/some of you are more snowflaky than my students
 
2013-02-15 05:02:34 PM

Rindred: WhippingBoy: Rindred: This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.

I don't get it. Why do IT guys think that they're among the technologically elite? You're tolerated because you have the root password, and do the jobs that no one else really wants to do.

I don't consider myself one of the "elite," whatever that is. I describe my job as "50% glorified janitor, 50% grief counsellor."

My importance in relation to my past and present employers is keeping shiat running. So many people think "I'm a smart person - I should be able to fix this computer issue myself!" right up until they can't. Then I get a call. This is no different than plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, firemen, etc. I just happen to have a degree that is technically unrelated to what I do for a living.

But please, don't let me stop you for digging for a way to be offended at me for having a non-STEM degree. Carry on, o mighty Fark rager.


You seem to know your place. We're good.
 
2013-02-15 05:03:23 PM

Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements

Nah, I'm just calling you out for jumping to a personal attack, and a wildly assuming one at that, in lieu of supporting your own discussion points or responding to mine.

I'm just going to go ahead and mark you as troll now, between your posting and your account creation date.


Yes. My creation date is shameful. So after a year or so I will be able to get my panties in a wad because I've been here a while... Got it.
 
2013-02-15 05:05:25 PM

de_Selby: stanank: Ironically the grammar in this article is worse  thanexpected, considering the author's critique of academic aptitude.

"A large part is contributed to the academic or grade performance being worse then they expected; they just weren't prepared," he said.

Read more at:http://phys.org/news/2013-02-dropouts-werent.html#jCp

Hang that on the article writer, not the researcher. It's an interview quotation, and has been poorly transcribed.

/I've been misquoted by a reporter


It still doesn't excuse the fact that the person being quoted should have said "ATtributed" and not "CONtributed," unless I'm totally missing the meaning of the sentence.
 
2013-02-15 05:08:38 PM
Why is it when I hear someone say "STEM" to describe their degree or education, I automatically get a whiff of autism and a dose of smug? I would think there's a direct correlation to how  many times someone describes their degree as just merely "STEM" in one post and their inability to function in normal social situations, but I'll leave that to the STEM-y experts to figure out, heh.  Seriously? Just say what you got your degree in / what you studied.  No one cares about "STEM" STEMSTEMSTEMSTEM.
 
2013-02-15 05:15:11 PM

jst3p: WhippingBoy: Rindred: This IT guy has a BA in English, minored in Humanities Interdisciplinary Studies, has zero IT certs, and has been working solely as a techie for 17 years.

And I always get a kick out of my replies.

I don't get it. Why do IT guys think that they're among the technologically elite? You're tolerated because you have the root password, and do the jobs that no one else really wants to do.

Because the rest of you don't realize that "doing the jobs that no one else really wants to do" is actually letting cron run some shell scripts while we fark all day.


Oh, we know. We also know that when one of those scripts hiccups and takes down a server, you're the one who gets the alert at 3am and any blame for the downtime that comes along with it.

Master Sphincter: Smackledorfer: Master Sphincter: Wait.. Are you biatching about people making assumptions about you? On the internet!!? How dare I?  You sound like you are in debt.
But thanks for providing me with the evidence to the contrary.

/surprised you didn't include notarized copies of your statements

Nah, I'm just calling you out for jumping to a personal attack, and a wildly assuming one at that, in lieu of supporting your own discussion points or responding to mine.

I'm just going to go ahead and mark you as troll now, between your posting and your account creation date.

Yes. My creation date is shameful. So after a year or so I will be able to get my panties in a wad because I've been here a while... Got it.


You'd think, but no. After a year you'll find yourself incapable of caring.
 
2013-02-15 05:19:32 PM

palelizard: ajgeek: UberDave: Many students learn over the course of their studies that college is not a good match for them academically...

...So they go on to major in Business.

/Runs from thread.

Or English, Liberal Arts, and for the ladies, Women's Studies.

/stands defiantly.


If we don't support those degrees, how can I expect my coffee to be served with an unordered side of smug superiority and condescension?  Who will explain to me the power dynamic artificially represented by the tip jar is really just an extension of the philosophies behind Vaclav Havel's greatest works, and like all true absurdist situations, reflecting the opposite of reality to indicate that I, the advanced math degree consumer, am truly the powerless one, not only in the relationship between the barista and I, but in all subjective realities (as objective reality is a thought-construct of the powerless)?

Who will judge me?  I don't want it to be amateurs.


How about an English major? That should be "between the barista and me"
 
2013-02-15 05:25:05 PM

semiotix: I'm a humanities professor at a state university. My cushy salary is leeched off the tax dollars of you bootstrappy folk with your "useful" degrees and practical hardscrabble wisdom you got from the University of Real Life, etc.

I guess I should defend the honor of the dreaded lllllllibrul arts, but I mostly use Fark to kill time at work, and I'll be damned if I'm going to spend Friday afternoon in my office.

See you guys Tuesday!


Based on your username, I think I can guess what you teach.  :-)

/comp sci graduate
//my tenured humanities profs were awesome
///hardest courses I ever took
////except for my very last calculus class, oh my poor brain
 
2013-02-15 05:32:06 PM

CliChe Guevara: dittybopper: My life would be measurably worse without tradesmen like plumbers, auto mechanics, and the like.  I don't have the skills or the tools to do most repairs on my car, for example.

 I come from a background of academia, working in a business environment full of empty advanced degrees, and having a hobby of restoring automobiles and machining parts.
 I can safely tell you the level of technical knowledge, common sense, and problem solving skills required of repairing cars (or any skilled trade for that matter) usually far exceeds the demands of most any classic cubicle farm business degree job.
 In fact, the level of skills required for a good machinist, particularly high-level technical knowledge and mathematics, exceeds that required of most any engineering degree. Engineering is easy, being a machinist is a frighteningly high barrier to reach.

 Working with hands =/= ignorant

 The idea that work must be a total undefinable abstraction to be intellectually demanding is quite simply a crock of shiat.


This, this, this.

I am a degree-holding computer scientist.  Have been for years.  (Programmer, sysadmin, I've done all of that.)  I've spent maybe 40 minutes of my life working on a metal lathe.  It was incredibly fun and scared the everloving shiat out of me.  Whatever those guys make, it's not enough.  Machinists get much respect from this desk jockey.
 
2013-02-15 05:51:47 PM

my herniated disc: Are universities and colleges just pumping out degrees to people who don't actually acquire general university skills and therefore end up unemployable with a degree and crazy debt? Or is it just because the economy is suffering right now and therefore fewer jobs?


A bit of both, IMO.  When I was going through college, the only people I knew who got Liberal Arts degrees were people who started in Major X, and then switched to LA so they could get SOMETHING out of their existing course credits before leaving school.  Some of the people who switched were smart, capable individuals who just didn't know what they wanted to do with their lives.  While others were just slackers who were skating by and probably would have gotten bounced out of school at some point, but decided they should at least get SOME piece of paper or mom and dad would be pissed.

Are all LA majors idiots/slackers?  Absolutely not.  But I'd bet there are a higher percentage than normal who are, vs. other degrees.  Because it seems to be the fallback degree rather than the goal driven one.

Also the economy still sucks and it's harder to find jobs.

I think it's an absolute travesty that our K-12 system pretends as if everyone can or *should* go to college.  For some people, it's just not the right fit.  Kids should be at least exposed to some trades or vocations as they are going through school, just to explore their options.  Many may not know that they are good at construction, mechanical trades, agriculture, etc., which can be good paying jobs that provide fulfillment.  Even if they decide not to go for any of the trades they are exposed to, it can't hurt them to learn about such things.

Not going to college doesn't automatically mean you're a moron.  We should stop pretending like it does.
 
2013-02-15 05:56:11 PM
i dropped out because i realized a major in fine arts wasn't worth huge sums of money, but didn't have any real world experience to know what to change to

so i got some real world experience, and now i'm going back for engineering

the lesson here is, don't go to school straight out of high school
 
2013-02-15 06:03:49 PM

AdamK: i dropped out because i realized a major in fine arts wasn't worth huge sums of money, but didn't have any real world experience to know what to change to

so i got some real world experience, and now i'm going back for engineering

the lesson here is, don't go to school straight out of high school


That is sage advice right there.  Kids right out of college don't know how much they don't know. Until you understand the value of an education you will not appreciate it.
 
2013-02-15 06:23:01 PM

Skraeling: A b.s. pretty much has no meaning now. It's the modern day high school diploma.


Try sitting for the PE exam without a BS in engineering.  It's impossible in many states, and damned difficult in the rest.
 
2013-02-15 06:32:11 PM

Khell: my herniated disc: Are universities and colleges just pumping out degrees to people who don't actually acquire general university skills and therefore end up unemployable with a degree and crazy debt? Or is it just because the economy is suffering right now and therefore fewer jobs?


I think it's an absolute travesty that our K-12 system pretends as if everyone can or *should* go to college.  For some people, it's just not the right fit.  Kids should be at least exposed to some trades or vocations as they are going through school, just to explore their options.  Many may not know that they are good at construction, mechanical trades, agriculture, etc., which can be good paying jobs that provide fulfillment.  Even if they decide not to go for any of the trades they are exposed to, it can't hurt them to learn about such things.

Not going to college doesn't automatically mean you're a moron.  We should stop pretending like it does.


Yeah I found when I was in high school university was always presented as the next step if you wanted to succeed, which is a mistake I think.  Its great for some but is not for everyone and shouldnt be undertaken for lack of something better to do.  Lots of people I know ended up dropping out of it, finding it not really a good fit. Plus high school does nothing useful at all to prepare you for university, making it even more difficult for people entering university without a clear idea of what they are doing and having misconceptions of what a degree actually gets you.

Trades or vocations were downplayed to a fault when I was high school as well. Not to mention going into trades as a woman was unheard of.. and this is only back in the 1990s!   I really wish trades were played up more when I was in high school. Ugh, I cringe when I remember myself saying disparagingly I wouldnt want to be a blue collar worker.  Stupid younger self!  Construction work is awesome.  Depending on the trade, it can be just as mentally challenging as anything else.   (mine isn't but still, lots are)
 
2013-02-15 06:40:00 PM
There has been a lot of arguing about what causes the massive drop-out rate in college.  The argument is a bit political:  conservatives blame lazy irresponsible youth, and liberals blame tuition cost and the failure of our social safety net.

This study confirms what professors have suspected for a long time:  a lot of kids just aren't cut out for it, and leave when they figure it out or have it figured out for them.
 
2013-02-15 07:27:06 PM

my herniated disc: Yeah I found when I was in high school university was always presented as the next step if you wanted to succeed, which is a mistake I think.  Its great for some but is not for everyone and shouldnt be undertaken for lack of something better to do.  Lots of people I know ended up dropping out of it, finding it not really a good fit. Plus high school does nothing useful at all to prepare you for university, making it even more difficult for people entering university without a clear idea of what they are doing and having misconceptions of what a degree actually gets you.

Trades or vocations were downplayed to a fault when I was high school as well. Not to mention going into trades as a woman was unheard of.. and this is only back in the 1990s!   I really wish trades were played up more when I was in high school. Ugh, I cringe when I remember myself saying disparagingly I wouldnt want to be a blue collar worker.  Stupid younger self!  Construction work is awesome.  Depending on the trade, it can be just as mentally challenging as anything else.   (mine isn't but still, lots are)


Agree!  I think many people believe that the degree is going to get you a job in an exact field.  For some people, I'm sure that occurs.  But if other fields are like tech (which I'm in), then most people don't have a degree that precisely lines up with what they are doing.  Sometimes by a wide margin.  I know dudes/dude-ettes coding software that have history degrees, art degrees, mechanical/electrical engineering degrees.  In fact most don't have a "computer science" degree.  They just have the smarts and aptitude to code.  A degree can definitely open doors as it shows that you are generally capable of obtaining a goal (e.g. getting through college), and in areas not tied to what you studied.

As for trades, I can't speak to the female angle but that's interesting to know.  I could see it occurring back then ("Girls can't do construction, silly!").  But my dad's been a union carpenter for 40 years, and when I was still in high school I got to work summers with him.  It definitely opened my eyes to the level of smarts some of the construction tradesmen need to have.  For carpenters, being able to take proper measurements, calculate distances, mentally envision materials they need to cut and put into place, and do it all quickly because you're not paid to sit around 'cipherin all day...  It's not easy work, but at the same time it's not rocket science either.  And good tradesmen will be able to solve problems on the fly, because nothing ever goes exactly to plan.  So I agree with you, the jobs can be mentally challenging.  Plus there's a degree of pride that comes out of it because you can physically see your end product once it's built.
 
2013-02-16 09:14:02 AM
as someone who is currently comfortably in the 98th percentile I can tell you this. Degree, no degree, regardless of actual knowledge...the more money you make, the less work you actually do.
 
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