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(WTOV9 Steubenville-Wheeling)   A political science professor tells students not to use openly fictitious parody of real-life news sites like The Onion or Fox News as sources for their work   (wtov9.com) divider line 261
    More: Obvious, Fox News, news sites, professors  
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8373 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 11:13 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-15 12:18:35 PM
College students should only be using peer reviewed academic sources. This rules out all infotainment " news" outlets.
 
2013-02-15 12:18:56 PM

Weaver95: I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.


Ad hominem.

The first refuge of the scoundrel.  Again, if you can rebut the link and the other information I gave to prove you lied, go for it!

Or ad hominem, hell, whatever sport, I'm a big boy.  You can ad hom me and I'll just quote things that show you are full of shiat:

Clearly, the story that FOX News got a court ruling in favor of its right to "lie" in its news broadcasts has become something of a talking point among the cable news channel's detractors. There's only one problem - the story as popularly told is completely false, and is based almost exclusively on hysteria, hyperbole, and half-truths.

Game on, champ.  Call me "half-wit" next, that is what failures usually do when I've shattered their fragile egos with facts.
 
2013-02-15 12:19:39 PM

december: college prof here,

my lower level classes are forbidden from consulting outside sources. They have the assigned texts, and they have my handouts and lecture notes. this is mostly just to catch cheaters, but also to prevent students from getting out of their depths when writing papers.

my upper level classes can cite whatever they want, but i tell them that anything that is not peer reviewed should be used for informational (rather than academic) purposes only. If you want to cite Yahoo! Answers go right ahead. But anything you want to use to actually support your argument should probably come from the library or JSTOR.


Those are both good policies.  I mandate that student papers must have at least N citations, and only print sources count.  This way, they can cite a CNN.com article about hackers, but when they get down to details about network attack and defense they have to go to journal articles or conference papers---or books, but outside of the textbook nobody cites books. It's not a huge inconvenience because most published papers in EE/CS are available online anyway---requiring a print citation just helps to distinguish between Fark and academic sources.

Of course, this doesn't prevent half the papers from arriving on my desk with 5 URLs as citations, but then I get a nice, broad grade distribution.
 
2013-02-15 12:20:34 PM

jst3p: As someone who is returning to school I can say that in my anecdotal experience it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I like to think of myself as a moderate who leans left on most social issues but most of the kids in classes make me feel like a right wingnut.


In today's academic setting, if you don't bow before the alter of "Group Think" then you are the enemy.
"One can judge from experiment, or one can blindly accept authority. To the scientific mind, experimental proof is all important and theory is merely a convenience in description, to be junked when it no longer fits. To the academic mind, authority is everything and facts are junked when they do not fit theory laid down by authority." -Robert A. Heinlein
If you disagree with the authority (Teacher) you are at best ignorant and at worst evil incarnate. Authority will not except that you have different ideas or that you have come to your own conclusions based on facts and life experience.  If you don't accept their answers and world view (ALL OF IT) then you are not accepting their authority end of story so you must be a _________. (fill in blank for most evil thing they can thing of off the top of head)
 
2013-02-15 12:21:50 PM

Weaver95: except that that the GOP seems to lie with almost gleefully malicious intent. the Republicans are almost Orwellian in how they approach their ideology.


I know many people that would say the same thing about the Democrats.
 
2013-02-15 12:22:22 PM
I took an American government class last semester. The proff was unabashedly liberal. It actually made the class easier, my papers were all as libby lib lib as they could possibly be. Aced the class.
 
2013-02-15 12:23:03 PM

Publikwerks: No wonder she is a temp professor  You don't openly say that, you just knock off 10% for every reference you think is BS. Besides, if it's a class where politics is being debated, you need to allow for contrasting viewpoints. And if it isn't, you can flunk them for referencing fox news on a chem paper.


All you lazy farkers bashing the crappy prof just simma down now:

From the comments:

"Posted by Unbiased atAs one of Dr. Wolfe's students I am really angered by this whole 'tempest in a teapot'. In fact, the people commenting negatively toward Dr. Wolfe (below) show why she is absolutely correct in this matter. Their views have been skewed by bad reporting. We were told, in-class, that she did not want us using biased sources, and mentioned some extreme left, and extreme right, as well as special interest "news" organizations as examples. 

She further explained that, if we could make a good argument for using one of these sources (as several people in class have) that she would permit it. She just wanted us to explore a variety of sources, rather than simply accepting a single perspective.

She has NOT (as TV9 claims), "lifted any limitation on research sources", because there was no real limitation to begin with.

The "upset students and parents", are one set of parents who happen to be the extremely conservative and politically influential parents of one student who is failing. So rather than talk to her or anyone else at the University, they are trying to discredit her.

All of this is hardly surprising, WWVA is a Fox radio affiliate, and Bloomquist only has a show because of he spreads offensive lies and half-truths (Look at his comments about coal miners from last April).

What is sad is that WTOV is being so ignorant as to accept for face value what Bloomquist said. This is what happens with yellow journalists on a slow news day, I suppose"
 
2013-02-15 12:24:06 PM
I don't know... seems to me that if you hand in a paper that's based on information from FOX news, and it turns out the information in your paper is wrong (GASP!) because you used an unreliable political source... don't be surprised if you get a failing grade.

For the record, I probably wouldn't use MSNBC for a political paper either (maybe if it was a political opinion piece).  There are plenty of other news sources that don't intentionally try to give just a right or left slant.  Sensationalize, yes.  That's fairly common.  But most news sources don't try to alienate their readership based on political affiliation.
 
2013-02-15 12:24:19 PM

seelorq: "Posted by Unbiased atAs one of Dr. Wolfe's students I am really angered by this whole 'tempest in a teapot'. In fact, the people commenting negatively toward Dr. Wolfe (below) show why she is absolutely correct in this matter. Their views have been skewed by bad reporting. We were told, in-class, that she did not want us using biased sources, and mentioned some extreme left, and extreme right, as well as special interest "news" organizations as examples.


There is no such thing as an unbiased news source.
 
2013-02-15 12:25:21 PM
This is a completely ridiculous line of argument. Right now, I can go to their library and find completely unreliable book sources for nearly any topic, but not a specific media source she disapproves of. Thank goodness college professors are god-like beings whose feelings in the classroom trump reality outside the walls of their institutions.
 
2013-02-15 12:26:11 PM

Weaver95: december:  But anything you want to use to actually support your argument should probably come from the library or JSTOR.

what do you think about the comments posted here defending Fox News as an 'unbiased news source'?  you don't have to name names of course...i'm just curious what you think of fox news and the folks who defend them.


most of my courses are primarily argument based rather than fact based, so i can avoid this issues for the most part. that said, i tell students that they are responsible for fact checking their papers. if i can google something and find conflicting accounts which they have not gone out of their way to explain, then the paper grade suffers.

basically the take home message is: the student is aways responsible for providing balance. relying on Fox is just a dumb strategy given these constraints. the hope is that they develop good instincts about bias, even when it is tilted towards things they already think. Bias we like is just as bad as bias we dislike.
 
2013-02-15 12:26:23 PM
He's probably German. All that sunlight messes up their minds.
 
2013-02-15 12:29:21 PM
Fox News, a professional news organization

lulz
 
2013-02-15 12:29:58 PM

jst3p: seelorq: "Posted by Unbiased atAs one of Dr. Wolfe's students I am really angered by this whole 'tempest in a teapot'. In fact, the people commenting negatively toward Dr. Wolfe (below) show why she is absolutely correct in this matter. Their views have been skewed by bad reporting. We were told, in-class, that she did not want us using biased sources, and mentioned some extreme left, and extreme right, as well as special interest "news" organizations as examples.

There is no such thing as an unbiased news source.


"We were told, in-class, that she did not want us using biased sources, and mentioned some extreme left, and extreme right, as well as special interest "news" organizations as examples."

Cherry-pick some more tidbits. Her context is pretty damn obvious.
 
2013-02-15 12:31:20 PM

MonoChango: In today's academic setting, if you don't bow before the alter of "Group Think" then you are the enemy.


... it sure sounds like you're well acquainted with today's academic setting.
 
2013-02-15 12:32:19 PM

PacManDreaming: The sad thing is, is that The Onion is more accurate than Fox News.


Yeah, but their timing is wrong, most of their stories are posted somewhere between a month and a decade earlier than the actual event.

jst3p: There is no such thing as an unbiased news source.


Fortunately that's not what she told them to find.  She just told them not to use a biased news source, i.e. a source where the entire source has a unified, coherent political agenda for which it acts as a propagandist.

There are plenty of networks that don't have a specific or network-related bias, basically any network but Fox or CSNBC qualifies.  The fact that there are individual author biases, statistical biases, etc, are different things than source bias at the network level.
 
2013-02-15 12:32:21 PM
If I was in this class I'd find some reason to cite fox and if I got points off I'd be in the dean's office. I mean WTF is someone going to cite from Fox in a political science paper that'd be innaccurate, stuff from their website, the same stuff you see on every news website? And fark, what if Fox happened to be the only place an interviewer asked a question which was relevant to your topic. It's a primary news source.

Pop Quiz, which of these doesn't count as a primary source:
a) the Aryan Brotherhood Weekly interviews some leading Neo-Nazi
b) Bill O'Riley interviews Mitch McConnell and asks a policy question about the future of green energy
c) The Sociality Times interviews people from Occupy Wall Street
d) Sean Hannity says gay marriage is destorying our morals

YOU GET A BARIN MOARONS!

/it seems more like this professor sucks at teaching how to do citations
 
2013-02-15 12:33:10 PM

MonoChango: jst3p: As someone who is returning to school I can say that in my anecdotal experience it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I like to think of myself as a moderate who leans left on most social issues but most of the kids in classes make me feel like a right wingnut.

In today's academic setting, if you don't bow before the alter of "Group Think" then you are the enemy.
"One can judge from experiment, or one can blindly accept authority. To the scientific mind, experimental proof is all important and theory is merely a convenience in description, to be junked when it no longer fits. To the academic mind, authority is everything and facts are junked when they do not fit theory laid down by authority." -Robert A. Heinlein
If you disagree with the authority (Teacher) you are at best ignorant and at worst evil incarnate. Authority will not except that you have different ideas or that you have come to your own conclusions based on facts and life experience.  If you don't accept their answers and world view (ALL OF IT) then you are not accepting their authority end of story so you must be a _________. (fill in blank for most evil thing they can thing of off the top of head)


Spoken like a loyal Fox affiliate.

9/10
 
2013-02-15 12:33:35 PM

Darth_Lukecash: commies or fascist-two totally different ideology


Actually, historically they have hated each other because they are so similar.  Sort of like the Lutherans Vs Catholics in the 1600's.  As far as I have been able to figure out (correct me if you think I'm wrong) but the only difference is:
Fascist is when a small group of business owners take over and setup a central controlled totalitarian government.
Communist is when a small group of "Workers" take over and setup a central controlled totalitarian government.
End result is the same just a different group in power.
 
2013-02-15 12:34:27 PM

The Bestest: jst3p: The most common meal in the world is a bowl of rice.

I like rice.


Ditto. Rice is delicious.

/Heading to the grocery for a bag of Basmati.
//Among other things.
///What were we talking about again?
 
2013-02-15 12:36:25 PM
Propaganda is not news,. Propaganda is Fox Newschannel.
 
2013-02-15 12:37:09 PM

pedobearapproved: If I was in this class I'd find some reason to cite fox and if I got points off I'd be in the dean's office


I am pretty sure if the proff states in the syllabus not to use a source for whatever reason and you decide to you aren't going to have a leg to stand on.
 
2013-02-15 12:37:32 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: why would you give me so much power over you...? that's very strange.

Why does Weaver always respond to posts with a question like this....?  That is very odd.

And why does Weaver revert to this dodge when he has been blown so far out of the water that tiny chunks of him are raining down in Siberia....? That is very strange

/lolz..


I find you a very strange sort of person.  you absolutely refuse to address the issue(s) of Fox New and their complete lack of credibility.
 
2013-02-15 12:38:48 PM

MonoChango: Weaver95: except that that the GOP seems to lie with almost gleefully malicious intent. the Republicans are almost Orwellian in how they approach their ideology.

I know many people that would say the same thing about the Democrats.


And they would be wrong.  seriously - did you ever TRY to get a bunch of Democrats to all agree on something?  Republicans, on the other hand, are easy to force into lock step.
 
2013-02-15 12:41:27 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.

Ad hominem.

The first refuge of the scoundrel.  Again, if you can rebut the link and the other information I gave to prove you lied, go for it!

Or ad hominem, hell, whatever sport, I'm a big boy.  You can ad hom me and I'll just quote things that show you are full of shiat:

Clearly, the story that FOX News got a court ruling in favor of its right to "lie" in its news broadcasts has become something of a talking point among the cable news channel's detractors. There's only one problem - the story as popularly told is completely false, and is based almost exclusively on hysteria, hyperbole, and half-truths.

Game on, champ.  Call me "half-wit" next, that is what failures usually do when I've shattered their fragile egos with facts.


you sure do like to nail yourself up on that cross.  I asked questions about Fox news and their complete lack of credibility and you've tried to turn it into something about yourself.  you do this sort of thing a lot you know.

here. lets try this again - do you think Fox news is as credible as CNN or MSNBC?  and don't cop out with a lame 'they're all the same' statement either 'cause they're NOT 'all the same'.
 
2013-02-15 12:43:07 PM
What was left out of all this is she told them not to use MSNBC either. Cause as we all know it isn't a credible news source either. Actually what she told them is not to use any of these verbatim and that if they could show good cause to include them in their research that she would allow it. All she was trying to do was have them go to non-traditional news sources if you could call either Fox or PMSNBC news sources.
 
2013-02-15 12:45:22 PM

Weaver95: I find you a very strange sort of person. you absolutely refuse to address the issue(s) of Fox New and their complete lack of credibility.


Another gross fabrication.

I have DIRECTLY responded to and debunked the issue YOU RAISED in this thread regarding their credibility.  Strike One.

I have DIRECTLY addressed and DEBUNKED the fabrication someone else raised regarding "FOX news" in Canada..  Strike TWO.

I have pointed out that rather than address the substance of these posts YOU have resorted to ridiculous ad homimen fallacies. Strike Three.

Further, I have stated that ALL 24 Hour News Channels are farking garbage (just not based on the lies you told) Walk Off Grand Slam Home Run.

Stop lying, man up, admit your mistakes or please STFU.
 
2013-02-15 12:45:22 PM
I pity the small minded people that willingly submit to Fox Newschannel and AM talk radio.

Sad and pathetic people.
 
2013-02-15 12:47:51 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: I find you a very strange sort of person. you absolutely refuse to address the issue(s) of Fox New and their complete lack of credibility.

Another gross fabrication.

I have DIRECTLY responded to and debunked the issue YOU RAISED in this thread regarding their credibility.  Strike One.

I have DIRECTLY addressed and DEBUNKED the fabrication someone else raised regarding "FOX news" in Canada..  Strike TWO.

I have pointed out that rather than address the substance of these posts YOU have resorted to ridiculous ad homimen fallacies. Strike Three.

Further, I have stated that ALL 24 Hour News Channels are farking garbage (just not based on the lies you told) Walk Off Grand Slam Home Run.

Stop lying, man up, admit your mistakes or please STFU.


again, you avoided my questions and try to turn this into a personal attack.

so you don't see any difference between fox news and CNN...?  none at all?  how about fox news and MSNBC?  do you believe fox and MSNBC are identical in terms of how they report the news?
 
2013-02-15 12:48:29 PM

Weaver95: I asked questions about Fox news and their complete lack of credibility and you've tried to turn it into something about yourself. you do this sort of thing a lot you know.


lie:

Weaver95: I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.

 
2013-02-15 12:48:42 PM
ITT, people argue how bad foxnews channel is when the professor was probably referring to foxnews.com/.
 
2013-02-15 12:49:40 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: I asked questions about Fox news and their complete lack of credibility and you've tried to turn it into something about yourself. you do this sort of thing a lot you know.

lie:

Weaver95: I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.


truth.

/well that was easy.
 
2013-02-15 12:51:43 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: all news stations are equally bad...so watch fox news none?

Fixed that for you chief.


Oh omniscient paragon teach me your ways! I cast myself down at your feet imploring you to break me free of my horse blinders that give me the oh so ignorant tunnel vision. You speak in tongues that baffle the world's greatest minds and have the ability to read nothing but yet stay informed. Please, oh please teach me your ways. I offer you my best goat and my second best goat to your village. Surely you are some sort of revered high chief that protects your village from the ignorance that plagues our modern society. Pleas teach me your ways.
 
2013-02-15 12:52:00 PM

Weaver95: gain, you avoided my questions and try to turn this into a personal attack.


Lie.  You personally attacked me when I destroyed your fabrication.

I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.

You started the ad hominems, i just finished them

/I am baffled at the level of sneering contempt you have for the people reading this thread.
 
2013-02-15 12:53:04 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: gain, you avoided my questions and try to turn this into a personal attack.

Lie.  You personally attacked me when I destroyed your fabrication.

I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.

You started the ad hominems, i just finished them

/I am baffled at the level of sneering contempt you have for the people reading this thread.


so you are saying that my calling you a GOP voter is an ad hominem attack?


innnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting.  hmm.
 
2013-02-15 12:53:44 PM

Weaver95: /well that was easy.


Of course it was easy, for you. Lies come quite easily to you.  We also note that unlike me, you have failed to support you contention with anything at all.
 
2013-02-15 12:53:52 PM
The Daily Show is still OK, right?
 
2013-02-15 12:55:37 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: /well that was easy.

Of course it was easy, for you. Lies come quite easily to you.  We also note that unlike me, you have failed to support you contention with anything at all.


I ask a question, you dodge and/or change the subject and then call ME names.  you do this in almost every thread.

so - do you think Fox News is exactly the same as MSNBC?  you never answered, you just keep changing the subject and hoping I didn't notice.
 
2013-02-15 12:55:52 PM

MonoChango: Weaver95: they LOVE to be lied too and abused.

So you watched the SOTU address too?  ;-)

Anytime you invoke politics you are probably being lied to by both parties.  The only difference I have been able to see is that some do it with evil intent, and others do it because they are ignorant. You can tell the difference by asking who gets and who loses power.

"We must make a strong working class, by raising minimum wage"  Is something someone says when they don't have a clue about how an economy works. By rising the price of labor you weaken the demand. so this = stupid


AH now I get it ... when people earn relatively less they spend relatively more

so when for one hour's minimum wage in 1971 I could buy 10 hostess fruit pies (out of a convenience store), 5 gallons of gas or two packs of cigarettes, that was devastating to the economy?

If only they had paid workers less, then we could have been then; where we are now ,,, economically speaking of course

darn darn darn
 
2013-02-15 12:56:36 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: why would you give me so much power over you...? that's very strange.

Why does Weaver always respond to posts with a question like this....?  That is very odd.

And why does Weaver revert to this dodge when he has been blown so far out of the water that tiny chunks of him are raining down in Siberia....? That is very strange

/lolz..


Cute personal attack. However, you have yet to actually respond to any questions in a meaningful way, or cite any sources to support your claims. Which isn't acceptable in the 'liberal' world of academics.

Can I ask what you studied in college?
 
2013-02-15 12:57:03 PM

Weaver95: so you are saying that my calling you a GOP voter is an ad hominem attack?


innnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting. hmm.


Looks around.  Yes of course it is, it has nothing to do with the substance of the argument whatsoever...

Oh I get it, you think that ad hominem fallacies are limited to insults!  I get it!  I get it, you don't understand, you don't get "logic."

interesting indeed. And here you thought you were being "clever."
 
2013-02-15 12:57:38 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: so you are saying that my calling you a GOP voter is an ad hominem attack?


innnnnnnnnnnnnnteresting. hmm.

Looks around.  Yes of course it is, it has nothing to do with the substance of the argument whatsoever...

Oh I get it, you think that ad hominem fallacies are limited to insults!  I get it!  I get it, you don't understand, you don't get "logic."

interesting indeed. And here you thought you were being "clever."


so - do you think Fox News is exactly the same as MSNBC?  you never answered, you just keep changing the subject and hoping I didn't notice.
 
2013-02-15 12:58:43 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: /well that was easy.

Of course it was easy, for you. Lies come quite easily to you.  We also note that unlike me, you have failed to support you contention with anything at all.


CAN'T YOU TWO SEE THAT YOU ARE IN LOVE?!?!?!? Kiss him and get it over with!
 
2013-02-15 12:58:49 PM
So if Fox has an interview with a Senator and a student wants to quote from that interview i guess said student would be SOL.
 
2013-02-15 12:59:08 PM

Weaver95: I like how you deny reality, then act shocked when people react to your actions. c'mon man - just admit what we already know: you're a GOP voter and will support them no matter what. it's what everyone already has you tagged as anyways.


Actually, I have him tagged as "tard fluffer."
Close enough.
 
2013-02-15 12:59:30 PM

RelativeEase: So if Fox has an interview with a Senator and a student wants to quote from that interview i guess said student would be SOL.


I wouldn't trust fox news if they told me the sky was blue or that water was wet.
 
2013-02-15 12:59:46 PM

Weaver95: so - do you think Fox News is exactly the same as MSNBC? you never answered, you just keep changing the subject and hoping I didn't notice.


Oh my god.....

halfof33: Further, I have stated that ALL 24 Hour News Channels are farking garbage (just not based on the lies you told) Walk Off Grand Slam Home Run.


I am at a loss, I truly am.  Can weaver not go back and read the posts in this thread??  Why would he keep grossly misrepresenting the thread?
 
2013-02-15 12:59:47 PM

halfof33: Weaver95: I find you a very strange sort of person. you absolutely refuse to address the issue(s) of Fox New and their complete lack of credibility.

Another gross fabrication.

I have DIRECTLY responded to and debunked the issue YOU RAISED in this thread regarding their credibility.  Strike One.

I have DIRECTLY addressed and DEBUNKED the fabrication someone else raised regarding "FOX news" in Canada..  Strike TWO.

I have pointed out that rather than address the substance of these posts YOU have resorted to ridiculous ad homimen fallacies. Strike Three.

Further, I have stated that ALL 24 Hour News Channels are farking garbage (just not based on the lies you told) Walk Off Grand Slam Home Run.

Stop lying, man up, admit your mistakes or please STFU.


Lets see if you stand by your own convictions, admit to being a liar, and STFU.

From your link;

Whatever the truth of the dispute between the two reporters and WTVT, it seems clear that the station did not at the trial court level admit that it had attempted to distort the news story or assert the"right to lie"in its broadcasts. Instead, the station claimed its editorial decisions were based on an effort to air a fair and accurate story, and defended its editorial prerogatives under the First Amendment - editorial prerogatives that are indisputable, if the guarantee of a free press means anything.

They didn't assert their "right to lie," just their right to say whatever they want regardless of facts. As usual this just boils down to yet another one of your semantic faux arguments.

I read your entire link, and it boils down to this and, "but Fox won so therefore they didn't argue a right to lie." Except that they did, that was their defense. Or maybe you just don't know what editorials are?

Either way, apologize for falsely asserting the story was "complete fabrication," because it's not. It is 100% true, and even the opinion legal post you had to dig around to find doesn't refute it.
 
2013-02-15 01:00:47 PM

RelativeEase: So if Fox has an interview with a Senator and a student wants to quote from that interview i guess said student would be SOL.


read harder
 
2013-02-15 01:03:11 PM
Oh yeah now I remember why I rarely come out here anymore. I knew there was a reason.
 
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