Do you have adblock enabled?
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(CNN)   CNN Money decides to step into the spat between Tesla and the New York Times by driving the same Boston to D.C. route in the Model-S as the NYT's reviewer did. "With a full battery, there was no need -- none at all -- to nurse the car's battery"   (money.cnn.com) divider line 368
    More: Followup, Model S, cnnmoney, NYT, flatbed trucks, District of Columbia, New Jersey Turnpike  
•       •       •

14365 clicks; posted to Main » on 15 Feb 2013 at 7:46 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



368 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2013-02-15 12:43:05 PM  
Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.
 
2013-02-15 12:47:23 PM  

fredklein: True. But with a gas car, i can carry one or more of these:

and have extended range (like say I was traveling across Arizona or something). With an electric car, there needs to be a charging station at least every 'X' miles, no matter where you are.



You can do that too, if you are uber paranoid.  You carry one of these:

and it will generate power.   As a side benefit you can use it if you decide to go camping or if
Hurricane Sandy Blows to aggressively for you.
 
2013-02-15 12:47:27 PM  

Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.


Then instead of subsidizing oil companies and corn farmers with taxpayer dollars, we should subsidize the roads with taxpayer dollars.
 
2013-02-15 12:48:45 PM  
sigh....

www.mowersatjacks.com
 
2013-02-15 12:48:51 PM  

Smidge204: Asterix: Teslas are wonderful cars, but lets be honest. The infrastructure is not there yet. Perhaps not for the next decade.

The infrastructure isn't there yet? You have to make an effort to find someplace that doesn't have electricity in the US. Any wall outlet is a potential recharging station.


maddermaxx: 30% comes from coal, not most, and it's still hugely more efficient than petrol cars. Even if it were 70% coal, EVs would still be more efficient and produce less CO2, so with how things actually are, they are far and away the better choice.

40-45% comes from coal, last I checked, but it varies depending on who you ask.

The overall point stands, though: even if it were 100% coal, the carbon footprint of a mediocre EV is no worse than a vehicle getting 33 MPG (PDF) which is a good improvement over the status-quot.

snocone: Infrastructure for EV is a toy and will be so expensive to go prime time with current technology that it doesn't compute.

My house already has electricity. It's had electricity since the day it was built. What's the problem, exactly?
=Smidge=


Just that current infrastructure will not satify any signifigant increase in demand.
Watt you gonna do?

I'm pushin her as hard as I can, Jim. She won't take no more.
 
2013-02-15 12:52:55 PM  

dittybopper: ObeliskToucher: just to get this out of the way, I don't hunt, fish, or grow food crops either.

Why not?   Over 29 million people in the US bought fishing licenses last year, and nearly 15 million people bought hunting licenses.

That's an increase over previous years, and in fact, in the last 3 years we have numbers, the number of people licensed to hunt in the US jumped by from 14.448 million to 14.961 million, nearly 4%.


Lack of interest, time, and patience.
 
Ehh
2013-02-15 12:54:51 PM  

fredklein: alowishus: How hard would it be to treat electric car batteries like propane tanks?  You stop at the station and and swap your empty one for a full one.  Or am I missing an obvious problem with that?

Liability problems. If a driver turns in a damaged/broken/messed up battery, and the service station gives it to someone else and it causes problems or injuries or death, they could get sued. Which is why places that swap propane tanks don't accept damaged or rusty ones. Unfortunately, with batteries, it's not as simple as seeing it's dented or rusty.

Supply problems. Every 'gas station' ('electron station'?) would need to have a good supply of these things, a place to store them while charging, equipment to move them around (batteries are heavy), etc. Oh, and the electrical capacity to charge them.

Standardization problems. Gas can be poured into any size or shape tank. But a battery pack needs to fit a specific receptacle. That means they must be a standard size/shape. Any change to the standard requires having both 'old' and 'new' types, (see 'Supply problems' above.)

Customer Service problems. "You're taking my fresh, new, shiny batteries, and giving me those nasty, dirty things? I'm the customer and I'm always right! I want -those- batteries. Whatta you mean they're not charged yet? I wanna see your manager!"


"I want certified organic, cruelty-free SPIN DOWN electrons, dammit! Do you know who I am?"
 
2013-02-15 01:13:12 PM  

snocone: Just that current infrastructure will not satify any signifigant increase in demand.


Bullsh*t. Adding an EV charger to your home adds no more power demand than adding a large-ish window AC unit (3kw). Even the most demanding home EV charger pulls 7kW which is about what my electric stove sucks up boiling a pot of water. Why don't we hear about the grid collapsing more often?

Actual electric utility companies who are actually responsible for monitoring and maintaining the electrical grid have done actual studies and determined that the worst case scenario is they'll have to upgrade a handful of neighborhood-level transformers a few years early and change their rate structures to incentivize overnight charging when the grid is way under-utilized anyway. No billions of dollars of decades-long infrastructure buildouts required.


Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.


Unless you live in Washington state, then you as an EV owner pay a $100 annual fee for road maintenance. I think fees should be tied to miles driven and vehicle weight, but an annual flat fee is a start I suppose.

Plus a tax on light-vehicle gasoline fuel is a subsidy for freight trucks anyway. Your car does dick-all damage to your typical road compared to a single road tractor with full trailer, but if you distribute the costs according to the actual contribution to road wear then the price of goods would likely skyrocket... assuming you could even come up with a reasonable way to properly bill the truck drivers/owners without creepy GPS tracking measures.


Nutsac_Jim: You can do that too, if you are uber paranoid. You carry one of these:


i1182.photobucket.com

Propane fueled gas turbine generator with 480V ChaDeMo charging unit on lightweight trailer :D (Weather cover removed)

Toting around a generator-trailer is by no means a new idea, and it's actually a pretty good idea for those people who complain about not being able to drive 50000+ miles without having to stop for more than five seconds to recharge or whatever absurd extremes they always bring that argument to. Best part is you can rent a trailer and not have to pay for/lug around a gen set when you don't actually need it.
=Smidge=
 
2013-02-15 01:14:38 PM  

Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.


Thats why the government will have to mandate gps trackers in vehicles for a mileage tax.
 
2013-02-15 01:35:09 PM  
I was keeping up with traffic. I certainly didn't feel out of place -- except for the fact that I wasn't burning any gasoline.

I sped up, cruising over 70, riding in the left lane, mashing the gas pedal just to feel how fast the car could shoot from 65 to 80. I was practically giddy.


hmm....interesting
 
2013-02-15 01:39:39 PM  

Giltric: Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.

Thats why the government will have to mandate gps trackers in vehicles for a mileage tax.


If only there were a network of people and facilities set up to inspect automobiles at pre-defined intervals that would make sure your car was functioning within legal limits, verify proper paperwork, and record your cars odometer reading.....maybe they could even combine it with some form of registration service that would charge an additional fee each year to make sure you and your car are certified to drive on public roads.
 
2013-02-15 01:43:33 PM  

Driedsponge: Giltric: Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.

Thats why the government will have to mandate gps trackers in vehicles for a mileage tax.

If only there were a network of people and facilities set up to inspect automobiles at pre-defined intervals that would make sure your car was functioning within legal limits, verify proper paperwork, and record your cars odometer reading.....maybe they could even combine it with some form of registration service that would charge an additional fee each year to make sure you and your car are certified to drive on public roads.


You must live in a state that does those bullshiat safety inspections and checking for a CEL to see if your emissions are okay.
 
2013-02-15 01:50:53 PM  

Driedsponge: and record your cars odometer reading.....


Easily spoofed.

You can disconnect the cables, you can reprogram the chips to have your mileage say anything you want it to say.

Mine currently says 8008135
 
2013-02-15 01:53:05 PM  
Lots of farkers on the Tesla bandwagon. Just don't drive over 65 or make too many stops and you might make it where you're going.
 
2013-02-15 01:54:08 PM  

RexTalionis: MindStalker: So $9.00 of electricity (though you'll pay a premium at supercharging stations I'm sure).

Supercharger stations (the ones at the rest stops) are free for Tesla drivers.


You're still paying for them.  Built into the price of the car.
 
2013-02-15 01:57:48 PM  

dittybopper: RexTalionis: MindStalker: So $9.00 of electricity (though you'll pay a premium at supercharging stations I'm sure).

Supercharger stations (the ones at the rest stops) are free for Tesla drivers.

You're still paying for them.   Built into the price of the car.


Then, logically, you can't be "pay[ing] a premium at supercharging stations," now can you?
 
2013-02-15 01:59:25 PM  

RexTalionis: JustGetItRight: Trapper439: Unless you're on a German autobahn, why would you ever need a car that goes over 60 MPH?

I don't know, maybe because the speed limit on almost all interstate highways in America is 70mph and lots of traditional 4 lanes have 65mph limits?

Depends on where you are. The speed limit on the Garden State Parkway and, I think, the NJ Turnpike is 55 mph.


Actually, this is incorrect. The speed limit on both the Turnpike and the Parkway is 65 mph for most of their lengths. Only in the more congested areas is this reduced to 55.

The actual, practical speed limit on the Turnpike is closer to 80. Speed limits are much more strictly enforced on the GSP, at least on the sections I travel
 
2013-02-15 02:06:27 PM  

RexTalionis: dittybopper: RexTalionis: MindStalker: So $9.00 of electricity (though you'll pay a premium at supercharging stations I'm sure).

Supercharger stations (the ones at the rest stops) are free for Tesla drivers.

You're still paying for them.   Built into the price of the car.

Then, logically, you can't be "pay[ing] a premium at supercharging stations," now can you?


:) If they did charge for them (obviously in the long run we're not going to see charging stations for free forever, eventually everyone will be paying for a charge), it wouldn't be at the 10cent a kW hour rate.
 
2013-02-15 02:08:01 PM  

Girion47: Everyone's worried about recharging stations and noone seems to concerned that the less we spend on gas, the less funding our highways get.


Half of highway funding in my state comes from the general fund.  I'm sure that's more or less true in most places.
 
2013-02-15 02:08:38 PM  

Smidge204: Toting around a generator-trailer is by no means a new idea, and it's actually a pretty good idea for those people who complain about not being able to drive 50000+ miles without having to stop for more than five seconds to recharge or whatever absurd extremes they always bring that argument to. Best part is you can rent a trailer and not have to pay for/lug around a gen set when you don't actually need it.
=Smidge=


I've thought that having an electric car that has a standard battery in place, and an optional bay available for either a fuel tank/generator combo or an additional battery would be the optimum.

You could sell three separate versions:

1. Base model with the standard battery only and pig iron weight in the empty bay to preserve the weight distribution.  This would be the "urban commuter" version that got less than 100 miles per charge, but was relatively cheap, and could recharge overnight.

2. Extended range electric model.  Replace the ballast with an additional battery.  You get something akin to the Model S, an electric vehicle for those who need a bit more range than the base model.

3. The Hybrid version.  Replace the ballast with a fuel tank/generator combo.  This would give you a car with the flexibility similar to a Chevy Volt, but one that could travel on electrical power only for short trips.

The idea is that you make it modular so a person who buys the base model can upgrade if their circumstances change. Get a job that's 50 miles away now, instead of 10?  Don't buy a new car, just get the battery pack upgrade!  Find yourself making long trips intermittently?  Get the genpack upgrade!  Conversely, find that you no longer need the extended range from the genpack?  Trade it in for the extra pack!

If you design the car so a mechanic can do the switch and have it tested and running in, say, an hour or so, you'd have a real winner, especially if you could rent the hybrid genpacks to people who needed to drive down to visit Aunt Edna in Florida, or whatever.   They don't have to rent a separate vehicle, and the dealer gets to make some cash (and perhaps the opportunity to "upsell" that customer later).
 
2013-02-15 02:11:02 PM  

CheekyMonkey: It's an interesting article, thanks for posting.  The author does raise the real issue at the very end, though.  How thick is that cable gonna be to charge a 56Kw battery bank in under a minute?  It might actually not be practical/safe to do this with the battery in the vehicle...


Assuming you mean a 56kWh battery, that works out to 3360kW, or 3.3MW in 1 minute.

I can't find what gauge of wire you'd need to use that can carry that, I don't think it would be ridiculously large, submarine cables don't look that big, and can carry 630MW.
 
2013-02-15 02:12:14 PM  
You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.
 
2013-02-15 02:13:04 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: You can do that too, if you are uber paranoid. You carry one of these:

and it will generate power.


Riiiight.

I dunno about this particular car ( although I'd bet it's close), but the 'Better Place' ones mentioned earlier say this about charging:

120V Your basic, standard wall outlet. Usually about 22-24 hours, depending on the car.
http://www.betterplace.com/How-it-Works/switchable-batteries/3

So, yeah, you can bring a portable generator... and enough gas to run it for 24 hours. That is, if you don't mind stopping for a day in the middle of nowhere.
 
2013-02-15 02:16:17 PM  
At this point they should just sue the NYT for libel and slander. There is enough data straight out in the open where all can see.

This is what it looks like when the GOP tries to bury an industry.
 
2013-02-15 02:17:46 PM  

Driedsponge: You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.


damn mobile viewer.
 
2013-02-15 02:19:47 PM  
The only thing that makes sense when shopping for a new car is to buy the one with the lowest cost of ownership for the class of vehicle you need. Here's the list of the vehicles for 2013 with the lowest total cost of ownership over the first 5 years.

Compact Crossover/Wagon 2013 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Wagon
Compact Passenger Car 2013 Toyota Prius c
Convertible 2013 MINI Cooper Convertible
Crossover/Wagon 2013 Toyota Prius v
Full-Size Crossover/Wagon 2013 Toyota Highlander V6
Full-Size Pickup LD 2013 Toyota Tundra CrewMax
Full-Size SUV 2013 GMC Yukon Denali
Luxury Crossover/Wagon 2013 Acura MDX
Luxury Passenger Car 2013 Mercedes-Benz E350 BlueTEC
Luxury Performance Car 2013 Porsche 911 Coupe
Minivan 2013 Toyota Sienna V6
Passenger Car 2013 Toyota Prius
Performance Car 2013 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Wagon
Premium Compact Crossover/Wagon 2013 Audi A3 TDI
Premium Compact Passenger Car 2013 Lexus CT 200h
Premium Convertible 2013 Lexus IS 250C
Premium Crossover/Wagon 2013 Lexus RX 450h
Premium Passenger Car 2013 Lexus ES 350
Premium Performance Car 2013 Porsche Boxster S
Premium Sporty/Coupe 2013 Audi TT Coupe
Premium SUV 2013 Lexus GX 460
Sporty/Coupe 2013 Toyota Yaris 2-Door Hatchback
SUV 2013 Toyota FJ Cruiser
 
2013-02-15 02:21:49 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: The only thing that makes sense when shopping for a new car is to buy the one with the lowest cost of ownership for the class of vehicle you need. Here's the list of the vehicles for 2013 with the lowest total cost of ownership over the first 5 years.

Compact Crossover/Wagon 2013 Volkswagen Jetta TDI Wagon
Compact Passenger Car 2013 Toyota Prius c
Convertible 2013 MINI Cooper Convertible
Crossover/Wagon 2013 Toyota Prius v
Full-Size Crossover/Wagon 2013 Toyota Highlander V6
Full-Size Pickup LD 2013 Toyota Tundra CrewMax
Full-Size SUV 2013 GMC Yukon Denali
Luxury Crossover/Wagon 2013 Acura MDX
Luxury Passenger Car 2013 Mercedes-Benz E350 BlueTEC
Luxury Performance Car 2013 Porsche 911 Coupe
Minivan 2013 Toyota Sienna V6
Passenger Car 2013 Toyota Prius
Performance Car 2013 Subaru Impreza WRX STI Wagon
Premium Compact Crossover/Wagon 2013 Audi A3 TDI
Premium Compact Passenger Car 2013 Lexus CT 200h
Premium Convertible 2013 Lexus IS 250C
Premium Crossover/Wagon 2013 Lexus RX 450h
Premium Passenger Car 2013 Lexus ES 350
Premium Performance Car 2013 Porsche Boxster S
Premium Sporty/Coupe 2013 Audi TT Coupe
Premium SUV 2013 Lexus GX 460
Sporty/Coupe 2013 Toyota Yaris 2-Door Hatchback
SUV 2013 Toyota FJ Cruiser


woohoo, my car made the list....sort of.   Buying an STI doesn't make much sense financially, you can get the same performance out of a WRX with about 2K in mods.  The only true advantage is the 6 speed transmission and brembo brakes.
 
2013-02-15 02:28:27 PM  
snocone:
Just that current infrastructure will not satify any signifigant increase in demand.
Watt you gonna do?


I sees what you did thar.

Smidge204:
The infrastructure isn't there yet? You have to make an effort to find someplace that doesn't have electricity in the US. Any wall outlet is a potential recharging station.

The same could be argued about Video Rental places in the 70s right? Many people had T.Vs, didn't they? But there was a time a huge clunky Recorder was closer to $500 - $1K.

Like with every new product, there needs to be a critical mass before production costs and ultimately prices fall. Like many have pointed out, I may not always have access to a charging station. For example, just how easy is it to always have a wall outlet? Difficulty: On street parking at your primary address.

I also casually looked into a few fairly large cities that I am familiar with using (http://www.chargingstations.com/) and discovered in many instances that I would have to go out of my way to find a charging station. I used to have a diesel car and even then filling up was not always super convenient.

I am not arguing against the technology or concept. I am just saying that I will be a little late after the curve.
 
2013-02-15 02:38:13 PM  

MmmmBacon: The douchebag from the NYT did a hatchetjob smear article on the Tesla, and he got caught. Should have realized that the cars' computer would track enough information to debunk his claims, especially with GPS. Whoops! This new report just verifies Tesla's data.


I notice this latest test did not have an overnight stop in which the car lost 80% of its charge. An effect confirmed even by the Tesla Motors "data".
 
2013-02-15 02:38:45 PM  

Girion47: Popcorn Johnny: The only thing that makes sense when shopping for a new car is to buy the one with the lowest cost of ownership for the class of vehicle you need. Here's the list of the vehicles for 2013 with the lowest total cost of ownership over the first 5 years.

woohoo, my car made the list....sort of.   Buying an STI doesn't make much sense financially, you can get the same performance out of a WRX with about 2K in mods.  The only true advantage is the 6 speed transmission and brembo brakes.


A factory warranty doesn't hurt, either.
 
2013-02-15 02:41:17 PM  

alowishus: How hard would it be to treat electric car batteries like propane tanks?  You stop at the station and and swap your empty one for a full one.  Or am I missing an obvious problem with that?


It would be easy if all electric cars used the same battery and a nightmare otherwise. It would also required the refuelling costs to pay for battery depreciation, which is about $10,000 per annum for a Tesla Roadster - or was. Maybe a bit less now.
 
2013-02-15 02:49:17 PM  

RexTalionis: "Tesla reps told me to sit in the car and blast the heat for half an hour because this will magically 'condition' my battery so I get more power."


Sounds plausible. Cold Li-ion batteries don't give up their charge like warm ones. There is a lot of sophisticated battery temperature management on a Tesla car, and that includes heating as well as cooling.
 
2013-02-15 02:55:37 PM  

Driedsponge: You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.


yeah yeah we also have restrictions on committing murder, extra punishment for using a firearm to commit murder, laws about smoking pot, doing lines and driving drunk.....tell me how successful that system is, would you?

When the country switches to a mileage tax instead of a fuel tax you will see alot more people only driving 300 miles a year if they were going to solely use an odometer reading because more and more people will be throwing their mechanic some extra money to disconnect their odometer..
 
2013-02-15 03:02:56 PM  

maddermaxx: Most modern fuel stations cost between $150k to over $800k from what I could find.


My local pterol station dispenses at about 0.5 litres per second. That's about 0.35 kg per second. At 45 MJ/kg, that's an energy delivery rate of 16MW. If we assume that a petrol engine has a thermal efficiency of about 20% and an electric care has an efficiency of 80%, the petrol pump is equivalent to a 4MW charging station. Even a Tesla Supercharger is only 90kW, so roughly speaking you need 45 times as many Superchargers as pumps to service the same number of cars.

The situation isn't too bad at the moment, as there are hardly any electric cars around and those that are around are mainly used for short distance journeys and charged at home.
 
2013-02-15 03:04:30 PM  

fredklein: Um, their advice let to the car driving 51 miles on only 32 miles worth of charge. I'd say their advice worked. It was the idiot reporter who constantly under-recharged the car who is to blame.


Why would you blame him if he followed Tesla advice? It appears that they may have thought that the charge apparently lost overnight would reappear as the battery warmed up, which is why they advised a relatively low charge.
 
2013-02-15 03:07:11 PM  

gsiofa: [Broder's response]: I stopped at 72 percent because I had replenished more than enough energy for the miles I intended to drive the next day before fully recharging on my way back to New York. In Norwich, I charged for an hour on the lower-power charger, expressly on the instructions of Tesla personnel, to get enough range to reach the Supercharger station in Milford.


My prediction: Tesla Motors will shortly be looking for replacement customer service staff and Mr Musk is going to regret that he ever raised this fuss. Of all the ways to handle it, he chose by far the worst.
 
2013-02-15 03:22:25 PM  

Giltric: Driedsponge: You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.

yeah yeah we also have restrictions on committing murder, extra punishment for using a firearm to commit murder, laws about smoking pot, doing lines and driving drunk.....tell me how successful that system is, would you?

When the country switches to a mileage tax instead of a fuel tax you will see alot more people only driving 300 miles a year if they were going to solely use an odometer reading because more and more people will be throwing their mechanic some extra money to disconnect their odometer..


I know someone who did that.  He leased a van for his business, and he had to pay for extra mileage at the end of the lease.  He had the mechanic disable it for a while so he wouldn't go over the mileage limit.

/Back when it was a mechanical odometer.
 
2013-02-15 03:35:54 PM  

Giltric: Driedsponge: You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.

yeah yeah we also have restrictions on committing murder, extra punishment for using a firearm to commit murder, laws about smoking pot, doing lines and driving drunk.....tell me how successful that system is, would you?

When the country switches to a mileage tax instead of a fuel tax you will see alot more people only driving 300 miles a year if they were going to solely use an odometer reading because more and more people will be throwing their mechanic some extra money to disconnect their odometer..


Like someone else said, that's a federal offense.  I doubt a mechanic is going to want to take that kind of liability.
 
2013-02-15 03:41:37 PM  

Tommy Moo: alowishus: How hard would it be to treat electric car batteries like propane tanks?  You stop at the station and and swap your empty one for a full one.  Or am I missing an obvious problem with that?


I'd put money on electric double-layer capacitors (AKA Supercapacitors) eventually supplanting batteries as the energy storage system for EVs. Even if in the future they hold half the Amp-Hours of a battery, they last longer, aren't damaged by running them to 0 volts,  and charge really, really quickly. Imagine driving 150 miles and "refueling" in 5 minutes (I ride a motorcycle almost exclusively -- it has a 130mile range)

EV technology just needs time: remember that the early cars were slow, unreliable, and had limited range.
 
2013-02-15 04:02:19 PM  
Why do people keep saying it's $100K+?

Two seconds on their site reveals the prices on the sedan to be:
$52,400 40kWh battery
$62,400 60kWh
$72,400 85kWh
$87,400 85kWh "performance" model with upgraded drivetrain, suspension and interior

Still expensive but hardly insane by luxury car standards and not over $100,000.
 
2013-02-15 04:08:14 PM  

mllawso: Tommy Moo: alowishus: How hard would it be to treat electric car batteries like propane tanks?  You stop at the station and and swap your empty one for a full one.  Or am I missing an obvious problem with that?

I'd put money on electric double-layer capacitors (AKA Supercapacitors) eventually supplanting batteries as the energy storage system for EVs. Even if in the future they hold half the Amp-Hours of a battery, they last longer, aren't damaged by running them to 0 volts,  and charge really, really quickly. Imagine driving 150 miles and "refueling" in 5 minutes (I ride a motorcycle almost exclusively -- it has a 130mile range)

EV technology just needs time: remember that the early cars were slow, unreliable, and had limited range.


Wouldn't capacitors have the problem of bleeding back to no charge when parked? You'd have to charge them whenever you were going to drive, unless they could insulate them really, really well.
 
2013-02-15 04:18:24 PM  

Girion47: I doubt a mechanic is going to want to take that kind of liability.


Some of them  already do.
 
2013-02-15 04:22:43 PM  

bin_smokin: Here is my problem with electric cars that no one will address.

It takes a half hour to charge this car at a proper charging station (480V).  1 hour to charge it with a 220V outlet and over 6 hours to charge it with 120V.

So if you have to drive more than 270 miles in this car you are screwed unless you want to take a half hour break at a charging station.  I am canadain. We drive long distances.

Personally I would rather have a turbo diesel that I can drive for 650 miles without stopping.


Multiple people have addressed it. The answer is for you to not buy an electric car if you regularly need to drive over 270 miles without stopping. Or, if those trips are a rare occurrence take a second car when road tripping.  People with 80-100k to spend on a car generally have a second vehicle. EVs are still a new technology it will be a decade before they can do everything you want them to.
 
2013-02-15 04:29:42 PM  

Girion47: Like someone else said, that's a federal offense. I doubt a mechanic is going to want to take that kind of liability.


They already do it. Just like all the other federal offenses that are violated.

You can even pay for an inspection sticker if your vehicle has no chance of meeting emission or safety standards.....shocking that people break laws right?
 
2013-02-15 04:31:14 PM  

fredklein: maddermaxx: The thing is, all of those gas stations you go cost a lot of money too, but they weren't all set up in a few years, but over decades and more.

Gas stations require:
A tank to store the gas.
A pump to...pump the gas.

Battery swap stations require:
Heavy equipment to move heavy batteries around.
Lots and lots of storage space for lots and lots of heavy batteries.
Lots and lots of electrical supply to be able to charge the batteries.
Lots and lots of electricity to charge the batteries

Gas stations are CHEAP compared to Battery swap stations. Personally, I think the 'future' of cars lies not with electricity and batteries, but rather with an artificial liquid fuel. Perhaps something produced by bacteria eating cellulose. That way we can use the existing gas stations. Why reinvent the wheel?


Do you remember (if you are old enough) the size of first computers, hard disk or even the size of cell phones when they came out initially?  Hell even the size of monitors or your TV? Its funny how technology evolves.
 
2013-02-15 04:31:16 PM  

dittybopper: /Back when it was a mechanical odometer.


Now they can be reflashed with an OBDII, or other diagnostic tools.
 
2013-02-15 04:40:06 PM  

Tommy Moo: Wouldn't capacitors have the problem of bleeding back to no charge when parked? You'd have to charge them whenever you were going to drive, unless they could insulate them really, really well.


Yes you would. Of course, that is by no means the reason why supercapacitors will never be used for EVs.

The BATTERY is not the limiting factor for charge times. It hasn't been for decades. The limiting factor in charge time falls into one of two categories:

1) The amount of power available at the charging location. This means you're limited to things like 12kW for a home, or 80-100kW for a business or standalone installation. But even if you're able to access higher powers, you are limited by...

2) The amount of power that can safely be handled without special training and equipment. At ~400V battery voltage, you're already pushing 200+ amps with ChaDeMo/Tesla Supercharger equipment. 200 amps, 400 volts. That's "kill you dead right now" territory.

For comparison, a gasoline dispenser nozzle has a raw energy throughput in the neighborhood of twenty megawatts. A 14-gallon gas tank holds about 470 kWh of energy (~80% of which you waste as heat, though, so really it's like 90kWh usable). Unlike electricity, gasoline is very stable and you can safely transfer it at those rates.

If you want to recharge an EV in the time it takes to fill a gas tank, you need something in the neighborhood of 280kW. Only licensed electricians would be qualified to wave a cord around at that power level.

But the real problem with EV haters/skeptics is they fail to understand a critical point: There is absolutely no need whatsoever to recharge that quickly. Recharging an EV requires a fundamentally different culture than refueling a traditional car. "Stopping for gas" is so habitualized that few can see operating a vehicle in any other way.


dittybopper: I've thought that having an electric car that has a standard battery in place, and an optional bay available for either a fuel tank/generator combo or an additional battery would be the optimum.


We had this discussion - it was a silly idea then and it's a silly idea now. A trailer hitch accomplished exactly this and does not require a visit to a service station with specialized installation equipment, nor would it require anything vehicle-specific.
=Smidge=
 
2013-02-15 04:54:44 PM  

fluffy2097: Notabunny: As the price for all-electric cars drops, demand for charging stations will increase. My guess is that municipalities will then begin buying all-electric cars for their fleets. I think the infrastructure will grow quickly at that point.

Charging a Tesla S with the supercharging system requires 90Kw of power.

That's as much electricity as the average house uses in an entire year.

To charge your car.

If you think quick charging stations are going to stay cheap, or that our electrical grid can handle them without a 100% complete overhaul to double plant and transmission line capacity, you are insane.


Please explain how Tesla S use 90kW to charge once!  I am all ears (and eyes). I am interested in the car but if its taking that much electricity then screw it.
 
2013-02-15 04:56:25 PM  

dittybopper: Giltric: Driedsponge: You realize you just admitted to a federal offence, right?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federa l_Odometer_Act

The point is they already have a system set up to monitor yearly mileage, and very few drivers are going to risk massive fines or jail time to spoof their odometer.

yeah yeah we also have restrictions on committing murder, extra punishment for using a firearm to commit murder, laws about smoking pot, doing lines and driving drunk.....tell me how successful that system is, would you?

When the country switches to a mileage tax instead of a fuel tax you will see alot more people only driving 300 miles a year if they were going to solely use an odometer reading because more and more people will be throwing their mechanic some extra money to disconnect their odometer..

I know someone who did that.  He leased a van for his business, and he had to pay for extra mileage at the end of the lease.  He had the mechanic disable it for a while so he wouldn't go over the mileage limit.

/Back when it was a mechanical odometer.


Glad you added that disclaimer. Try disconnecting speed sensors on modern vehicles and you'll wind up with a trans stuck in "limp home mode"
 
2013-02-15 05:12:39 PM  

fluffy2097: Driedsponge: Most people will be charging their car at night in their driveway/garage. Off-peak and overnight.

Except when most people are dumping a huge load onto the electric grid every single night, overnight becomes peak hours.


As others have said many house AC units draw more kwh than a Tesla home charger, and millions of homes have those without problems during the day.
 
Displayed 50 of 368 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter





In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report