From the comments

"I try not to be too tinfoil, but burning is really convenient since nobody can eyeball and identify the body that way. It's more important for the LAPD to publicly be seen to kill Dorner than for them to ACTUALLY kill Dorner. Think about it."


WTF? If Dorner wasn't really the guy in the cabin, he will surely attempt to kill again. How the hell would it profit the LAPD to fake his death?

vpb: Ah yes. A photo of a truck. That clearly proves that there was a conspiracy to kill Dorner and then falsely claim that his body was his by forging his license.

It DOES show the restraint level that the LAPD was working with, however.  Enough they were willing to sling a mess 'o lead at a SUSPECT.  They were spoiling for a fight, and planned to kill that dude as soon as his head popped up.

ringersol: Yeah, the multiple ID thing sounds more like catching the LAPD in garden variety "lying to the press" shenanigans, from back when they had no farking clue where he was but didn't want to sound totally incompetent.


Exactly. They don't have to be lying about having killed him to have lied about the details. And with the bang up job they were doing on his trail some white lies (racist pun unintended) here and there seem utterly plausible.

This is a police force who will attempt to murder random people - on multiple occasions - because they are reckless and effectively unaccountable. Lying about finding his ID to make themselves look more competent is totally believable.

Surool: I'm confused... so NOW the big conspiracy is that the LAPD has faked this guys death to help him escape? I mean, if that isn't the case, all this guy would have to do to take down the department is pop up alive some place. I'm not sure what this particular piece of conspiracy theory would accomplish for the participants.

I think if they faked his death, it would be to cover up letting him escape and watching the place burn while someone else(Or maybe nobody) was inside, it would explain why they are waiting so long to positively ID the body. If he pops up again, they make up a story. If he decides to lay low they continue with the 'He's dead, Jim.' line.

It's a weird situation. You have cops firing upon two completely unrelated vehicles that only look similar because they are the same type of vehicle(A truck). They shoot up both of these vehicles with no warning whatsoever, and the drivers look nothing like the suspect. Next, you have this guy who supposedly went on this well-planned spree getting as far as Big Bear, setting his truck on fire, then just hanging out for 5 days? At the end, it's two days later, and there is no real clear story on what happened, including the identity of the body. On top of that, the police suddenly impose a media blackout and try to get people to stop reporting anything on Twitter. Add in the multiple accounts of absolutely, positively finding his wallet AND ID on 3 separate occasions, and it's easy to understand why people are questioning this one.

With the LAPD being known for corruption, lying and incompetence, it's really a no-brainer to question the official story. It's almost guaranteed that some part of it is completely fabricated.

SlothB77: Or there's the possibility that the wallet skeptics have found the one flaw in a carefully scripted police conspiracy, and that the police made a conscious decision to lie to everyone about finding Dorner's wallet in multiple places, in an effort to...well, it's not clear why the police would do that. General mayhem?

Cover up the fact that Dorner's body wasn't found in the cabin?

I tend to believe it was Dorner in the cabin tho, with or without the ID.  The other possibilities are that: a) it is someone else's body in the cabin, b) no body was found in the cabin.  The ID thing doesn't really exculpate the police from intentionally burning the cabin down.

But it does now allow LAPD to hunt Dorner down & kill him without press coverage or overt observation. "Yeah, that was Dorner - we found his ID. You can stop covering the story now. Go home. Move along. Move along."

So, Dorner was burning to death and instead of curling up in a ball like most people would do as they died, he laid flat on his back like he was getting a freaking tan?
Bullshiat.

He had already been shot when they shoved him back in and lit the cabin.

This story stinks from the bottom to the top.

I've run out of tinfoil so here's the dribble trickling out my ears:

My insane theory is that the guy had hard evidence of something going on in the LAPD on a grand scale (I'm thinking orchestrated slave trafficking, sex slavery, murder for hire, etc). All the things being "said" by him are done on social media (correct me if I've missed something), which we all know is impervious to hacking (insert sarcasm).

The only way I'd personally believe he attacked first is to have heard the man ranting and raving. Video of his own mouth moving, his own voice speaking.

They made it clear they had no intention of catching him alive. I think it had little to do with being a "cop killer."

Crazy biatch in Eugene Oregon killed a cop at a traffic stop few years ago and drove off. There was a manhunt. They caught her alive. Socop killing =\= kill insight by default.

Now that he's dead (if you believe he died in the fire), the only word we have is the LAPD's. and we all know all cops tell nothing but the truth (more dripping sarcasm).

Now I'm off to the store for more aluminum foil.

PsiChick: Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

The LAPD is an American police force. It is supposed to stand for justice. The second one of their own died, they started on a vengeance rampage to prove a point to 'cop-killers'. Never mind that people die every day and they sometimes give no farks at all; this time they were willing to terrorize civilians, attach their name to borderline-racism,  SHOOT AT FARKING CIVILIANS, and finally kill Dorner in what is usually known as the most painful death possible.

Spontaneous combustion does not exist. Either bears have learned to use matches, or the LAPD knew they ran the risk of basically torturing a human being to death in the name of vengeance and pride. That is wrong. Dorner's crimes should have been punished, but what the LAPD has done is an affront to everything America should stand for.

Maybe you should spend less time worrying about a dead man and more worrying about the people you're absolving of fairly unforgiveable sins. The people shot at in Dorner's name by the LAPD would thank you.

You expressed my entire thoughts on this case.  Everyone I know is either shouting "yeah! go cop killer!" or "Boo!  He deserved whatever he got" or simply ignoring the whole thing.  The issue is not whether he was a good or bad person but what we are willing to tolerate from the people who are supposed to be protecting us.  Dorner was mentally disturbed and should have been apprehended, tried, and punished but the behavior the LAPD displayed throughout this debacle is frankly terrifying.

ExperianScaresCthulhu: I'm sure folks with memories older than 20 years ago can go back even further.


No argument here.

This case though was just SO egregious though... I don't understand how the mayor or governor isn't raging through the LAPD like the Hulk right farking now. If I was an executive branch official with a police force in my jurisdiction that behaved like that I'd be putting my foot so far up their collective asses that they'd taste my shoe polish. I'd be embarking on years of reforms and the resignations of everyone in charge.

Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

Bontesla: Well, the remains have been identified as Dorner's...


The remains were positively identified, then denied to exist, then confirmed to exist but too hot to retrieve, then retrieved but would take weeks to identify, then they found an intact wallet confirming his identity, now they confirm the remains through dental records...

Not that I doubt that Dorner died in the fire, but at this point I'm not accepting any news related to this case as even remotely plausible until it goes at least 24 hours without a retraction.

Ace Rimmer: the ha ha guy: PsiChick: No, I believe they should be rational enough to realize they were dealing with someone who was psychologically capable of being forced into surrender, and their job is to take any reasonable measure to get that surrender, not  throw a farking bomb in the house. And as far as suicide by cop being 'justice', dear lord, please stay the fark away from anyone who's mentally ill.


According to a claim by CNN, a U.S. Marshall spokesman told them that Dorner did try to leave, but he was pushed back inside...

Forty minutes later that same U.S. Marshal said that authorities are "not sure" if he ever came out.

(Scroll to the 8:34 and 9:14 PM updates)
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/12/police-checking-reports-that-ex -l apd-officer-dorner-sighted/

They didn't want a surrender, they didn't want him to have a chance to be punished in accordance with the law, they wanted him to suffer and die at their hands.

But what does, "Dorner did try to leave...." mean?

Did he throw his guns down and come out weeping for his very life, as you so wholeheartedly proclaim?

Or, did he come out guns blazing?

All we know so far has changed every damn day since this whole thing started. I think I'll avoid jumping to my conclusion for a wee bit longer yet.

I don't think more time will provide any additional clarity. The person who could piece the most together was burned to death...

He was supposed to have been fired in 2008 yet somehow managed to keep his LAPD badge to conveniently throw in a bin last week?   Shenanigans.  If the LAPD have that kind of internal security I think the beatings will not only continue but you have a lot more to worry about than you thought you had.

There's much more to this than meets the eye and LAPD are trying to avoid whatever it is coming out.

I REALLY like the tunnel under the cabin idea...

the money is in the banana stand: mongbiohazard: the money is in the banana stand: I am not defending their actions, just the challenging the blanket statement. I am curious to know how they knew there weren't any other people (or even animals) in the house before they ignited it.


They shot 6 innocent people while looking for him, several of which couldn't have been confused for him in a dark alley by a blind man wearing headphones (seriously, a blonde guy? TWO latin women - one 50 something and the other 70 something?). It's blatantly obvious they just didn't CARE if anyone else was in there.

Dorner was a villain, but the LAPD is actually the worse villain in all of this. Dorner is dead and gone. The LAPD still gets to murder and attempt to murder people with almost complete impugnity. Their actions were reckless and inexcusable and implicates the entire force as a bunch of corrupt, incompetent fools who desperately need to be held accountable.

I agree with what you are saying. Again, I am not defending the actions of the LAPD. I was challenging the blanket statement that under no circumstance should police "be judge jury and executioner" which in the context, meant using deadly force and killing perpetrators. The general consensus is that the police should apprehend suspects irregardless of the harm they pose to them, or others, and go through the court system. With regard to this case in particular, IF Dorner fired upon the cops without being first shot at, and IF the LAPD was absolutely sure that no other individuals (or pets) were inside the cabin, I don't have an issue with them smoking him out. If he walked outside guns blazing as a result, I don't care if the cops cut him down either. I don't understand how completely burning the cabin to the ground however was the best solution as whoever owned the property now has lost that and everything inside.


You and I apparently do not disagree. I have absoluetly zero problem with police who shoot someone who is shooting at them. Now if they have him trapped somewhere, burning the place down is a totally different story... If he's surrounded in there though, then things are different. They can wait for him to surrender, wait for him to come out shooting and cut him down or if he's firing from a defensive position inside the structure let the snipers cut him down.

But burning someone's cabin down - risking a forest fire - is NOT what I expect from a lawful and legitimate police force in our country. But even that isn't the most outrageous part of the story. IMHO the outrageous part is the behavior of the police during the manhunt.


4tehsnowflakes: The taste of Mongb's outrage is as sweet as the polish would be bitter. But no matter how solid your other qualifications may be, election to an executive office in a larger town or city without being endorsed by at least some of the jurisdiction's leading LEO's is difficult.  Frequently the winning candidate for mayor or top county official is an insider in part because that police/prosecutor endorsement is so important, one reason why the most successful prosecutors are often able to use that office as a step into elective office.  Defenders of this situation would say it makes sense because the executive is nominally in charge of enforcing the criminal laws.

/education by accident


No disagreement here either. It's sad though. I can't believe that there isn't much more outrage over the behavior of the LAPD in this whole debacle. EVERYONE - including the police - needs a check on their power and the greater the power the greater the need for the check. If they do not have one then we are guaranteeing that they will abuse their power. Police, firefighters, senators, clergy, soldiers, chefs, baggage handlers..... we're all human beings and all of us are subject to corruption and temptation. People are disappointed by their heroes because we forget that they are human and imperfect, just like us.

Since 9/11 police have been lionized to such a ridiculous degree that real oversight or accountability of almost any kind seems to have all but vanished. I'm sure the trend started even earlier than that, with the "War on Drugs", in addition to the part of human nature where some significant percentage of us happily submit to those who claim to have authority over us without question.

PsiChick: No, I believe they should be rational enough to realize they were dealing with someone who was psychologically capable of being forced into surrender, and their job is to take any reasonable measure to get that surrender, not  throw a farking bomb in the house. And as far as suicide by cop being 'justice', dear lord, please stay the fark away from anyone who's mentally ill.


According to a claim by CNN, a U.S. Marshall spokesman told them that Dorner did try to leave, but he was pushed back inside...

Forty minutes later that same U.S. Marshal said that authorities are "not sure" if he ever came out.

(Scroll to the 8:34 and 9:14 PM updates)
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/02/12/police-checking-reports-that-ex -l apd-officer-dorner-sighted/

They didn't want a surrender, they didn't want him to have a chance to be punished in accordance with the law, they wanted him to suffer and die at their hands.

the money is in the banana stand: You make it sound like you think Dorner should have been given time out or given a break because he was "mentally ill." Something tells me you have never been shot or shot at before.

Don't we train the police to respond to being shot at  differently than your average person? You know, so suicide-by-cop isn't a thing and justice is?

Or are we just throwing money at training programs to train thugs?

please: the money is in the banana stand: 2headedboy: Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

No fark you. Just because many of us here believe that the police acted unlawfully doesn't mean we took the murdering asshole's side. This country has due process and it's important.  The police should never be the judge, jury and executioner.  NEVER.

The police should never kill a perpetrator who is shooting at them or has just exchanged a barrage of gun fire with them killing an officer? So the police should always risk their lives to apprehend someone who is actively, or just tried to kill them? Why should they? It is an entirely another issue if they just opened fire on a guy they thought was Dorner, or if he surrendered and was executed. All signs point to Dorner not willing to give up. Their options once they surrounded they house were to go in, and potentially be shot at or face booby traps - or wait him out and "hope" he gives up and doesn't run outside and start shooting at people - or kill himself. If he doesn't give up and just starves to death as a result, would then the cops be just as responsible for his death as they were for the fire?

Good thing he didn't have a hostage in there.

I am not defending their actions, just the challenging the blanket statement. I am curious to know how they knew there weren't any other people (or even animals) in the house before they ignited it.

Late to this party (and apologies if this has been posted), but I just want to point out that the wallet found near the border wasn't a case of sloppy reporting - it's listed as evidence in one of the sworn criminal complaints against Dorner.

Fulltext

earthworm2.0: How much evidence do they have that he was the one who killed the daughter and her boyfriend? I mean, he was obviously a suspect, but did he take pictures witht he dead bodies and post them on facebook, or is everyone jsut assuming it was him because of the manifesto?

because LAPD said so.

there were security cameras everywhere around those million dollar condominiums. but we only get security footage from a hotel in late January.

tiamet4: PsiChick: Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

The LAPD is an American police force. It is supposed to stand for justice. The second one of their own died, they started on a vengeance rampage to prove a point to 'cop-killers'. Never mind that people die every day and they sometimes give no farks at all; this time they were willing to terrorize civilians, attach their name to borderline-racism,  SHOOT AT FARKING CIVILIANS, and finally kill Dorner in what is usually known as the most painful death possible.

Spontaneous combustion does not exist. Either bears have learned to use matches, or the LAPD knew they ran the risk of basically torturing a human being to death in the name of vengeance and pride. That is wrong. Dorner's crimes should have been punished, but what the LAPD has done is an affront to everything America should stand for.

Maybe you should spend less time worrying about a dead man and more worrying about the people you're absolving of fairly unforgiveable sins. The people shot at in Dorner's name by the LAPD would thank you.

You expressed my entire thoughts on this case.  Everyone I know is either shouting "yeah! go cop killer!" or "Boo!  He deserved whatever he got" or simply ignoring the whole thing.  The issue is not whether he was a good or bad person but what we are willing to tolerate from the people who are supposed to be protecting us.  Dorner was mentally disturbed and should have been apprehended, tried, and punished but the behavior the LAPD displayed throughout this debacle is frankly terrifying.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ third

ha-ha-guy: Bontesla:
Well, there was that account that says Dorner tried to exit through the back but was pushed back in.

At this point I've seen three different stories on various media outlets:

1. He tried to run out the door and was pushed back in, no one was hurt.
2a. Same as 1, but he killed one LEO.
2b. Same as 2, but he killed one LEO and injured another one.
3.  He never tried to come out.

What are the odds they just murdered a homeless squatter?

KarmicDisaster: I think that they burned him on purpose. Also that at least one of the cop fatalities will prove to be blue on blue.

No way they'll ever admit to the last one.

cretinbob: tenpoundsofcheese: Well, that would explain why he first laid down before shooting himself (a well known suicide technique)

Yeah, I'm not going to speculate on why he would have already been on the floor when the fire started, but the several hundred rounds fired into the structure hours earlier may have had something to do with it. Probably had something to do with why he didn't answer them or come out too.
 But again I can only say for certain that you'd be surprised what survives a structure fire, especially if it's a dense material or under something that would insulate it.
The only video I saw was the middle of the fire and it didn't seem to be particularly intense, and it burned for a long time, so it's not likely there was an accelerant, at least not a lot of it, involved.
Yes, I do think it was caused by the incindiary tear gas canisters.
I'm not really going to defend the police here, because fark this asshole.

Well, there was that account that says Dorner tried to exit through the back but was pushed back in.

Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

you obviously know more about fire than law

so stick with talking about fire

I recall reading that he had an accomplice. Who's to say it was actually him in the cabin? Multiple IDs scattered across a wide region seems to indicate misdirection. If it really wasn't him then he will either stay "dead" or use this time to plan a counter-attack. Whomever was in the cabin didn't deserve to be burned alive. Even Charles Manson got his trial. A man loses it because of police corruption, and dies in a corrupt manner makes a good story. People are also overlooking the fact that he had two previous concussions. I've mentioned this before, but severe depression is a symptom of post-concussion syndrome. It sometimes takes awhile to fully manifest. In the manifesto he said that he wanted his brain studied to show the effects of long-term depression. His depression was made worse due to the adversity he faced in a corrupt police department. For anyone one that's trying to "figure him out" then look no further than the concussions. It's also what happened to Chris Benoit years back.

earthworm2.0: LanceDearnis: mizchief: vpb: It's funny how these carefully scripted conspiracies always involve really careless oversights like multiple wallets and phony shooting victim photographs.

At least we know that reporters never make lazy mistakes so obviously it's a conspiracy between Obama, the Israelis and the sekrit muslins.

Oh, and the UN too.

I think that is totally plausible and probable, but yet these questions will go unanswered. I want to know the truth as to how the happened regardless of what it might be. This is just like in Sandy Hook how conflicting reports came out about the AR-15 not being used and video showing it being pulled out of the trunk, or what happened with the guy the arrested out in the woods and have both an adult and child eyewitness on the news saying someone was handcuffed and placed in the front seat of a cop car.

It probably is just media screwing  up, but we deserve to know the truth of how this happens and the news agency held accountable for reporting false information.

They figured out that one, actually. He had a shotgun in the trunk of his car. Media taped it getting pulled out. Idiot reporter can't tell a 12-gauge from an AR-15. People don tinfoil hats. People who are familiar with the model of AR-15 in question can look at the video of the cop unloading the shotgun, and can point out the details that prove it's not an AR-15. Don't know anyone who does? Take it to a local gun store owner. Ask him to show you how you unload a Bushmaster AR-15.

Much as I hate to defend the media( hear me out before youstart throwing things) the Izhmash Saiga does look a lot like an assault rifle. really doesnt look like a shotgun. But the video they used to incite the controversy does have the reporter saying, while the cops cleared the ammunition, that they cleared a "shell"... not a "bullet"... manufactured conspiracy is manufactured.

You shouldn't defend them. If we were talking about your brother I'd say your defense is certainly valid, but news had a higher standard. They failed it.

ha-ha-guy: I have to ask why he had his license in his wallet?  Was he planning on buying beer later or something and just flashing an ID reading "Charles Dorner".  I figured the man would at least have scored a fake off some guy who sold them to college kids.

/even if you hang onto your license, why keep it in your wallet?
//someone might get a glimpse of it as you were pulling cash out or something

I should mention, I assume Dorner did die in the cabin, but I'd still like to see LAPD get through tghe DNA test without farking that up.

/I assume they have this DNA to test against
//or at least dental records

I have to ask why he had his license in his wallet?  Was he planning on buying beer later or something and just flashing an ID reading "Charles Dorner".  I figured the man would at least have scored a fake off some guy who sold them to college kids.

/even if you hang onto your license, why keep it in your wallet?
//someone might get a glimpse of it as you were pulling cash out or something

Considering the track record of the press, which usually kicks out a lot of bogus information in the early stages of a high profile story, and some of the highly questionable actions that law enforcement took in this particular event, I find it disturbing that anyone who questions the validity of reports that IDs were found in multiple places (or any other discrepancies) are immediately written off as tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy nuts.

It's one thing to discard any proven factual information which later emerges and does not fit your personal interpretation of what happened, but rationally questioning apparently conflicting information is generally a sign of intelligence. It is more dangerous to accept everything one is told without questioning it, or at least testing it against basic logic.

There is certainly a middle ground between being a conspiracy nut (or truther) and a sheeple. It is possible to entertain a thought without being taken captive by it.

They did not want him to talk. Why else would they open fire on innocents with nothing to go on? He was going to squeal like Ned Beatty.

the money is in the banana stand: I am not defending their actions, just the challenging the blanket statement. I am curious to know how they knew there weren't any other people (or even animals) in the house before they ignited it.


They shot 6 innocent people while looking for him, several of which couldn't have been confused for him in a dark alley by a blind man wearing headphones (seriously, a blonde guy? TWO latin women - one 50 something and the other 70 something?). It's blatantly obvious they just didn't CARE if anyone else was in there.

Dorner was a villain, but the LAPD is actually the worse villain in all of this. Dorner is dead and gone. The LAPD still gets to murder and attempt to murder people with almost complete impugnity. Their actions were reckless and inexcusable and implicates the entire force as a bunch of corrupt, incompetent fools who desperately need to be held accountable.

MorePeasPlease: Smeggy Smurf: He shot pigs, not innocent people.

[cdn2-b.examiner.com image 508x350]


Yeah... If he had shot the guy he had a beef with, her dad, he might have been more credible and I might have some measure of sympathy. But he shot his daughter. That right there undermines his credibilty quite well.

That said... it doesn't mean the LAPD are any less farked up and murderous... It just means this is a story of all villains.

dittybopper: No, it's named after someone.

It's the recognition that when you read a news story or watch one on TV about  something you are knowledgeable about, you notice they always get something fundamentally wrong, but you accept what they say as gospel if you don't have in-depth knowledge on the subject.

So, if you are a physicist and you notice they always get physics wrong, why should you trust their political reporting?  Or what they say about, say, health news.

Ah, here it is:   Gell-Mann Amnesia.

Thank you! That's a new one for me. Coined by Michael Crichton no less!

And as an avid consumer of C-Span - which has shown me on many occasions just how shoddy reporting in the media can often be - so I know exactly what Crichton was talking about with this. You can only listen to so many hearings or press conferences and then read a story which portrays the opposite of what you just heard before you wonder why you don't question the rest of their reporting more too...

If Dorner does pop up again and start killing people the authorities will just say the cabin fire was part of a plan to draw him out.  He proves he's still alive, they have another chance to nab him.

I've already heard suggestion the cop shot and killed near the cabin was due to "blue on blue", anyone else hear that and have link supporting it?  I wouldn't doubt that for a second given the situation with the shooting of the trucks.

MorePeasPlease: Smeggy Smurf: He shot pigs, not innocent people.

It won't show that I quoted the picture on my phone, but seriously. THIS.

Some of you guys are derping hard, and derping for keeps.

Smeggy Smurf: He shot pigs, not innocent people.

Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

The LAPD is an American police force. It is supposed to stand for justice. The second one of their own died, they started on a vengeance rampage to prove a point to 'cop-killers'. Never mind that people die every day and they sometimes give no farks at all; this time they were willing to terrorize civilians, attach their name to borderline-racism,  SHOOT AT FARKING CIVILIANS, and finally kill Dorner in what is usually known as the most painful death possible.

Spontaneous combustion does not exist. Either bears have learned to use matches, or the LAPD knew they ran the risk of basically torturing a human being to death in the name of vengeance and pride. That is wrong. Dorner's crimes should have been punished, but what the LAPD has done is an affront to everything America should stand for.

Maybe you should spend less time worrying about a dead man and more worrying about the people you're absolving of fairly unforgiveable sins. The people shot at in Dorner's name by the LAPD would thank you.

tenpoundsofcheese: DROxINxTHExWIND: tenpoundsofcheese: DROxINxTHExWIND: tenpoundsofcheese: Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire.

I doubt he shot himself in the head while lying on his back.
Nor do I think that if he was standing and shot himself in the head, that he would end up neatly lying on his back with his butt protecting the wallet from the flames.

But, you DO believe that a passport fell out of a man's belongings as the plane that he was hijacking plunged into a skyscraper and landed on the ground, intact, where investigators found it? Oooookay.

huh?  wtf are you saying?

I'm just comparing conspiracy theories. Many of the folks here talking about how impossible it would be for Dorner's ID to survive a fire have no problem swallowing the story about one of the 9/11 hijacker's passports being found in the rubble of two skyscrapers after the plane he was in smashed into one of them.

Meh.  The 911 passport was found several blocks from the WTC, not in the ruble. I am not surprised that after a plane hits a building that it's contents would get thrown all over the place.  Momentum how does it work?

Sooooooo, the ID escaped the fireball that resulted from the collision, flew out of the building that the plane went into, landed several blocks away, and was found amongst the millions of pieces of paper that flew around after two office buildings were destroyed? And you think that's plausible? But, its not possible for a wallet to survive a house fire.

Lol. Ok.

abreucantina:  In Kansas it's just "DL"
/spelling is hard and stuff

In Oregon, it's "Card to operate that go-thingy -- you know, the one with four wheels."

tenpoundsofcheese: DROxINxTHExWIND: tenpoundsofcheese: Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire.

I doubt he shot himself in the head while lying on his back.
Nor do I think that if he was standing and shot himself in the head, that he would end up neatly lying on his back with his butt protecting the wallet from the flames.

But, you DO believe that a passport fell out of a man's belongings as the plane that he was hijacking plunged into a skyscraper and landed on the ground, intact, where investigators found it? Oooookay.

huh?  wtf are you saying?

I'm just comparing conspiracy theories. Many of the folks here talking about how impossible it would be for Dorner's ID to survive a fire have no problem swallowing the story about one of the 9/11 hijacker's passports being found in the rubble of two skyscrapers after the plane he was in smashed into one of them.

Mitch Taylor's Bro: dittybopper: Heh, yeah it is.

A couple of problems:

1. Dorner wouldn't likely call the news to say "I'm not dead yet!", because it's useful for his mission for everyone to *THINK* he's dead. Police stop doggy-guarding his targets, and the police don't have itchy trigger fingers every time they see a large bald black man. He can go after them at his leisure, secure in the knowledge that they are no longer looking for him. Then, when he's done what he set out to do, he can just walk away.

2. What news reader would believe him anyway? He's officially dead. Probably some crackpot. They call us all the time. Bet before the call is over he references Bababooey.

Rebuttal 1: Yeah, but the cops KNOW he's alive, so while they might let their guard down a little, it would only be to allow the media, and by association, the public, to forget about the whole thing. Meanwhile, they continue hunting him and take him out a little more quietly. Then, in June, on pg. 23 of the LA Times, a little article appears, "Unnamed homeless man found dead under Santa Monica Freeway overpass. Cause of death, unknown."

Rebuttal 2: Ric Romero is actually a TV reporter in...dun, dun, DUN!!!... Los Angeles!!!~!!11!1!

:-)

The cops haven't let their guard down yet, so yeah. As for the public forgetting, I guess it matters which sectors of the public forget.

So anyway, how much is it going to cost to keep an indefinite security detail on everyone on the list and their families until 'there's nothing left to be done'?

FAnArticle:

Police will continue to protect dozens of officers and others Dorner threatened in his manifesto, Neiman said.

"The task force is still in place, and they will work until there's nothing left to be done," he said. "We don't just stop a murder case simply because we think that the suspect in that case" is dead.

As for not stopping a murder case, it is to laugh. I guess they only stop murder cases for us little people.  Get kicked in the face by a cop?  get shot up by a cop? get rammed by a cop? Get tased to death by a cop? Nothing to see here.

Look dirty at a cop? release the hounds.

mizchief: vpb: It's funny how these carefully scripted conspiracies always involve really careless oversights like multiple wallets and phony shooting victim photographs.

At least we know that reporters never make lazy mistakes so obviously it's a conspiracy between Obama, the Israelis and the sekrit muslins.

Oh, and the UN too.

I think that is totally plausible and probable, but yet these questions will go unanswered. I want to know the truth as to how the happened regardless of what it might be. This is just like in Sandy Hook how conflicting reports came out about the AR-15 not being used and video showing it being pulled out of the trunk, or what happened with the guy the arrested out in the woods and have both an adult and child eyewitness on the news saying someone was handcuffed and placed in the front seat of a cop car.

It probably is just media screwing  up, but we deserve to know the truth of how this happens and the news agency held accountable for reporting false information.

They figured out that one, actually. He had a shotgun in the trunk of his car. Media taped it getting pulled out. Idiot reporter can't tell a 12-gauge from an AR-15. People don tinfoil hats. People who are familiar with the model of AR-15 in question can look at the video of the cop unloading the shotgun, and can point out the details that prove it's not an AR-15. Don't know anyone who does? Take it to a local gun store owner. Ask him to show you how you unload a Bushmaster AR-15.

tenpoundsofcheese: Elegy: Elegy: Late to this party (and apologies if this has been posted), but I just want to point out that the wallet found near the border wasn't a case of sloppy reporting - it's listed as evidence in one of the sworn criminal complaints against Dorner.

Fulltext

Whoops, fark dumped the pic of the excerpt:

[i.imgur.com image 625x88]

ah ha!  "Identification cards".  But that could be his Costco ID.  It doesn't say driver license.

(shrug) Just offering a point of fact over and above the "sloppy initial reporting" argument and a link to the criminal complaint in case anyone is interested, you know, actual facts.

Make of it what you will. You people always do, anyways.

How much evidence do they have that he was the one who killed the daughter and her boyfriend? I mean, he was obviously a suspect, but did he take pictures witht he dead bodies and post them on facebook, or is everyone jsut assuming it was him because of the manifesto?

Elegy: Late to this party (and apologies if this has been posted), but I just want to point out that the wallet found near the border wasn't a case of sloppy reporting - it's listed as evidence in one of the sworn criminal complaints against Dorner.

Fulltext

Whoops, fark dumped the pic of the excerpt:

olapbill: cfroelic: The One True TheDavid: cfroelic: It's driver license, not drivers license.

Driver's. Possessive apostrophe.


No, it's Driver License.  No s, no apostrophe.  Check the California DMV site

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/home/dmv.htm

driver? don't even know her.
at least up here it's driver's license.  Take off eh?

Hate to be "that guy" but you're still wrong. It's licence in Canada.

mongbiohazard: Captain Darling: From the comments

"I try not to be too tinfoil, but burning is really convenient since nobody can eyeball and identify the body that way. It's more important for the LAPD to publicly be seen to kill Dorner than for them to ACTUALLY kill Dorner. Think about it."


WTF? If Dorner wasn't really the guy in the cabin, he will surely attempt to kill again. How the hell would it profit the LAPD to fake his death?


Faking/lying about the ID doesn't actually mean they're lying about his corpse.

I actually have a pretty plausible explanation as to why they might lie about the ID. Sloppiness and an utter uninterest for proper procedure and use of force. Those are attributes which the LAPD demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt when they shot 6 innocent people (including latin grandmas delivering newspapers) and rammed a pickup truck while searching for himduring the OJ trial.

I'm sure folks with memories older than 20 years ago can go back even further.

Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

It's called innocent until proven guilty.  He's automatically guilty because the police say he's guilty?  Why would they do that?  Oh that's right, he accused them of breaking the law, so OF COURSE they shoot first and ask questions later.  They were trying to kill him, why else would they shoot up that truck before they even knew if he was the one in it?

Yeah, the multiple ID thing sounds more like catching the LAPD in garden variety "lying to the press" shenanigans, from back when they had no farking clue where he was but didn't want to sound totally incompetent.

1. Military ID
2. Police ID
3. Driver's License
4. Passport
5. Diner's Club Card

Captain Darling: From the comments

"I try not to be too tinfoil, but burning is really convenient since nobody can eyeball and identify the body that way. It's more important for the LAPD to publicly be seen to kill Dorner than for them to ACTUALLY kill Dorner. Think about it."


WTF? If Dorner wasn't really the guy in the cabin, he will surely attempt to kill again. How the hell would it profit the LAPD to fake his death?


Faking/lying about the ID doesn't actually mean they're lying about his corpse.

I actually have a pretty plausible explanation as to why they might lie about the ID. Sloppiness and an utter uninterest for proper procedure and use of force. Those are attributes which the LAPD demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt when they shot 6 innocent people (including latin grandmas delivering newspapers) and rammed a pickup truck while searching for him.

They could be well aware that it was his corpse that they recovered, but they want everyone to STFU about it. So they lie about finding his ID... If they are certain they actually got him this time then it's not like he'll show up somewhere else and prove that they were lying.

But it's kind of moot... the LAPD's execution throughout this whole episode has shown that there were TWO villains in this story, not one. Dorner was the first and the LAPD the second. Dorner was eliminated as a threat, the LAPD is going on as strong as ever. But we can be sure that the LAPD is not to be trusted now. Some of the strong criticisms of them have clearly been validated. They are totally out of control, and apparently effectively without oversight.

If I lived there I'd be a hell of a lot more frightened by the police than the criminals. The criminals I can fight back against and possibly win. The police can murder you and simply get away with it scott free.

Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

How about the part where they burned down the cabin without knowing who was inside, if anyone. In other words, there could have been hostages in there but apparently the PD didn't know how many people were in there.

Completely ignoring Dorner, that's troublesome. And good luck to the PD in future negotiations when this is seen as their peaceful way out.

Oh, and the might want to stop calling tear gas "burners", just saying.

Oerath: I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing nutter (I swear!), but I would totally believe that the LAPD meant to kill him and set the fire on purpose. To keep it from going to trial and letting him accuse them of a bunch of stuff and drag the whole thing out.

Not to mention that there were many people on Dorner's side.  They agree with him that the LAPD is totally currupt.  If it was shown on TV, that the LAPD shot him to death it would have made him a martyr.

Now, I'm no tinfoil hat guy either.  But I thought it very strange timing that nothing was reported on the news until literally ONE SECOND before the President came on to speak.  And all they said was, "the cabin appears to be on fire.  Now, on to the President."
By the time the news got back to it, the fire was out, and there appeared to be a charred body "believed" to be Dorner.

I have my own thoery about this...  I think there was someone else in there with him.  He was killed and left to burn when the cabin went up in flames.  He likely escaped.  When you think about it that way, it's in the best interests for the cops to report to the media that he's a gonner.  If he's alive and watching, he'll think he's gotten away.

Satanic_Hamster:

He really thinks we can't identify a burnt body?

It'll take a while. So if that was his plan he could have made it work long enough to get away. Remember the secret tunnel in The Thing? Still doubt it though, dammit.

As for police complicity, I learned from TV that cops all over hate anybody who kills a cop, even an ex-cop like him, so they'd be much less likely to let him live if they could do anything about it. And not only cops: it'd be open season on him all over the lower 48 at least, kill this guy and become an instant hero. You know, like Christopher Scarver.

dittybopper: Mikey1969: You have cops firing upon two completely unrelated vehicles that only look similar because they are the same type of vehicle(A truck). They shoot up both of these vehicles with no warning whatsoever, and the drivers look nothing like the suspect.

Based upon that behavior alone, Dorner may have had a valid self-defense argument against the cops he killed later on:  It's plain that they weren't going to give him the opportunity to surrender peacefully, and indeed, subsequent events show that do be true.  Wouldn't matter if he walked out with his hands up, the slightest movement on his part would have resulted in his being shot dead.   No opportunity for him to avail himself of due process.

Of course, the situation was entirely of his making, but it's still unacceptable behavior on the part of the police forces involved.  Two wrongs don't make a right.

They had him completely surrounded, they could have just cut off his water at the street and waited a few days for him to get weak to the point he couldn't fight back and strolled in and picked him up off the floor.

Won't be long before they just mark guys like this a terrorist and drone strike his house now that "due process" is just a high-ranking bureaucrat giving the go ahead.

How about this: guy in the cabin wasn't Dorner after all, and after the last few cases of mistaken identity on the LAPD's part, they decided that having one cop killer on the loose but too scared to kill any more cops right away would be more acceptable than admitting they screwed up yet again, and this time killed an innocent man in the most painful way imaginable. So the cops on the scene use their knowledge of forensics to ensure the body is completely unidentifiable except by a '"throw down" id, and otherwise go through the motions of doing their duty.

/or may be they actually got Dorner, but like the OJ case, decided some "extra evidence" needed to be introduced
//when the whole city is dependent on Hollywood to generate money, don't be surprised when everything is carefully staged

namegoeshere: amindtat: the ha ha guy: cfroelic: It's driver license, not drivers license.


No, it's "driver's license", not "driver license".

Apparently in CA, it IS driver license:

[icenter.ucsd.edu image 225x146]

Huh. NY as well. Who knew?

I knew

At this point, if the LAPD said that the sky was blue, I'd go running outside to see if the sky had turned red.  It's as if the Keystone Cops have been given loaded guns.

SkylineRecords: I actually have a feeling this guy isn't dead. It's not as far-fetched as 9/11 or the birther's movement. The guy has military AND law enforcement experience, and knows exactly how they're going to operate. What better way to get some heat to die down than for your pursuers to think you're dead? Crazy may be crazy, but crazy is very smart, too.

Plus the guy is seeped in pop culture. So much so he probably thinks that stuff in the movies would work and give it a try: Kill some homeless guy who fits the basic characteristics, plant evidence, burn down cabin and try to sneak out during the chaos.

I don't believe the cops would fake it.  This is personal, not some quick murder they want off the books.  They aren't about to let Dorner live free by faking his death so they can close the case.

vpb: It's funny how these carefully scripted conspiracies always involve really careless oversights like multiple wallets and phony shooting victim photographs.

At least we know that reporters never make lazy mistakes so obviously it's a conspiracy between Obama, the Israelis and the sekrit muslins.

Oh, and the UN too.

I think that is totally plausible and probable, but yet these questions will go unanswered. I want to know the truth as to how the happened regardless of what it might be. This is just like in Sandy Hook how conflicting reports came out about the AR-15 not being used and video showing it being pulled out of the trunk, or what happened with the guy the arrested out in the woods and have both an adult and child eyewitness on the news saying someone was handcuffed and placed in the front seat of a cop car.

It probably is just media screwing  up, but we deserve to know the truth of how this happens and the news agency held accountable for reporting false information.

the ha ha guy: cfroelic: It's driver license, not drivers license.


No, it's "driver's license", not "driver license".

Apparently in CA, it IS driver license:

cfroelic: It's driver license, not drivers license.

Driver's. Possessive apostrophe.

<b>Bit'O'Gristle</b>
<i>... So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people. </i>

Truth doesn't become lies just because you learned to hate the speaker.

Not sure you have to be a "truther" to see that something doesn't add up here. Now, if you want to speculate and conclude that Dorner was actually an alien and is now living in Cleveland under an alias and with a sex change, that's going a bit far. But merely noticing the discrepancy and raising an eyebrow doesn't make you paranoid or shrill or anything else connoted by "truther".

fickenchucker: What a waste of conspiracy effort.  Who says a psycho didn't have multiple IDs, say a couple of credit cards left in a jacket he left behind while eluding police, a driver's license left somewhere else for the same reasons, and finally the bulk of his wallet with his old police ID passport at the final location?

And a body "burned beyond recognition" might simply be a melted head, but a portion of the body intact covering the final wallet.  It's not like the human body instantly degrades and self-immolates like a Fourth of July snake.

If you're planning to go on the run, why would you have multiple IDs in your own name, the one you would have already burned? You make multiple IDs in different names, not the same one. Also, the DMV doesn't let you keep your old license when they issue a new one.

Easy. He had a Costanza wallet. That baby was so insulated and packed tight it burned slow like an cigar

To answer the author, I could see the police lying about finding an ID in various places to make it seem like they are indeed on the trail.

Oerath: I'm not a tinfoil hat wearing nutter (I swear!), but I would totally believe that the LAPD meant to kill him and set the fire on purpose. To keep it from going to trial and letting him accuse them of a bunch of stuff and drag the whole thing out.

Or to kill him because they were pissed and retaliating.

Bit'O'Gristle: Easy, if you die on your back, and the fire gets you, your leather wallet will probably survive the fire. I've seen it first hand. 90 percent of the heat in a fire is on the ceiling, and as your wallet wouldn't be up there unless you farking glued it there, it's probably going to survive. farking conspiracy morans. And it bother's me not at all that they set it on fire. That's deadly force, there is no difference between that and shooting the asshole in the head. Both are deadly force, both were justified. At least he had a CHANCE with the fire, he could have come out. But he chose not to. So fark him. And fark all you jackasses who took this murdering asshole's side. Whatever valid point he had died when he started killing innocent people.

I dunno if they have released any other photos from the burnt out cabin but the one I seen looked like everything burnt up.  There was literally nothing left but ash.  Now I know things dont burn like a lot of people think they do.  I had to burn a lot of T.O. T.M. in teh military.  Them thick books wouldnt burn unless you took 1-2 pages out at a time and burnt them like that. 
Just saying this shiat doesnt really add up the way the police are saying.

What a waste of conspiracy effort.  Who says a psycho didn't have multiple IDs, say a couple of credit cards left in a jacket he left behind while eluding police, a driver's license left somewhere else for the same reasons, and finally the bulk of his wallet with his old police ID passport at the final location?

And a body "burned beyond recognition" might simply be a melted head, but a portion of the body intact covering the final wallet.  It's not like the human body instantly degrades and self-immolates like a Fourth of July snake.

On 9/11 the government claimed one of the highjackers paasports was found in the debri of the trade centers. Farkers defended that.

It's driver license, not drivers license.

Guy was a crazy and dangerous and I certainly hope he's dead.........but......it would be kind of awesome in a Rambo'ish way if he had stashed a body up there and started the fire for just such an escape

Because murder.

I'm confused... so NOW the big conspiracy is that the LAPD has faked this guys death to help him escape? I mean, if that isn't the case, all this guy would have to do to take down the department is pop up alive some place. I'm not sure what this particular piece of conspiracy theory would accomplish for the participants.

All police carry fire proof licenses. Everyone knows that.

cretinbob: Third copy I can't explain but if had been laying on his back on the floor when the fire started and the wallet was in his pocket, yes it would have survived intact.

Well, that would explain why he first laid down before shooting himself (a well known suicide technique)

He wouldn't want to take the risk that if he was standing that when his body crumpled to the floor, that his wallet would have been at risk of burning. He probably also had some frequent buyer cards (jamba juice?) that he didn't want to ruin.