Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(The Chattanoogan)   Judge cowers as Sovereign Citizen unleashes torrent of legal justice upon our dysfunctional judicial system. And by "cowers," I mean "throws the book at"   (chattanoogan.com ) divider line
    More: Dumbass, Judges' Rules, judicial system, criminal justice, proof of insurance, justices, Norcross, Eric Kiesche  
•       •       •

16479 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Feb 2013 at 12:05 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



194 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-02-14 10:54:26 AM  
Good.
 
2013-02-14 11:02:57 AM  
The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.
 
2013-02-14 11:14:20 AM  
"...Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011..."

That's just like the Liberal Media:  Always lumping in the crazy with the stupid.
 
2013-02-14 11:55:00 AM  
This calls for P. Barnes and his taser.
 
2013-02-14 12:01:04 PM  
And by "throw the book at" we mean he was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation.

Though a $75 book could hurt when thrown, if it's one of those big coffee table books.

/ but I digress
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2013-02-14 12:05:30 PM  
He was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation.

A $50 fine (plus possibly unlimited "court costs") is the maximum punishment by a city court judge in Tennessee. You have a right to a real trial if the fine is greater.

In my area he'd be offered a deal that would set him back a couple hundred dollars and keep the conviction off his record if he got a license. And he would defy the court and refuse to get a license, and the judge would be annoyed at him, and trouble would follow.
 
2013-02-14 12:10:27 PM  
I think when you call yourself "sovereign" it's like asking the government to "come at me bro!"
 
2013-02-14 12:13:17 PM  

clancifer: "...Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011..."

That's just like the Liberal Media:  Always lumping in the crazy with the stupid.


Yeah, but which one is which? They're awfully similar. The number of "Tea Party" people who gleefully misquote, ignore, or flat out don't know anything from the Constitution beyond the Second Amendment is about on par with the "Sovereign" loonies.
 
2013-02-14 12:13:42 PM  
These sovereign citizen guys are usually just racist meth dealers trying to avoid paying any taxes. I'm not aware of it ever working.
 
2013-02-14 12:13:46 PM  

Man On A Mission: And by "throw the book at" we mean he was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation.

Though a $75 book could hurt when thrown, if it's one of those big coffee table books.

/ but I digress


i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her
 
2013-02-14 12:13:49 PM  
I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.
 
2013-02-14 12:14:08 PM  
Soon.
 
2013-02-14 12:14:17 PM  
I dunno.....my policy is not to fark with the cops if I'm ever stopped, if at all possible.

If you start arguing with the cops and they call for backup (as in this case)....it's game over, man.
 
2013-02-14 12:14:36 PM  
I was in court for a burned out headlight and the dumbass next to me tried this bs. The judge said something like 'you may not believe in the court, but the court believes in you.' Or maybe I saw that on a tv show. I don't know. Anyway, the judge made it clear that the defendant would lose with that strategy.
 
2013-02-14 12:15:11 PM  

ZAZ: A $50 fine (plus possibly unlimited "court costs") is the maximum punishment by a city court judge in Tennessee. You have a right to a real trial if the fine is greater.


OMG DO CITY COURTS DISPLAY THE NAVAL FLAGS WITH THE GOLD FRINGE?
 
2013-02-14 12:15:50 PM  
He tried the "You're not the boss of me!" defence? And it DIDN'T work?
 
2013-02-14 12:16:11 PM  

Man On A Mission: And by "throw the book at" we mean he was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation.

Though a $75 book could hurt when thrown, if it's one of those big coffee table books.

/ but I digress


If he's anything like all other Sovereign Citizens/Tea Partiers, he is unemployed, sucking on the gummint teat, and if he is younger than 40, living in his momma's basement. He likely won't have the money to pay the fines until he steals grandma's social security check.
 
2013-02-14 12:16:23 PM  
Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.
 
2013-02-14 12:17:22 PM  

cubic_spleen: He likely won't have the money to pay the fines until he steals grandma's social security check.


Thank God for social security. How's a guy gonna keep tweaking without it?
 
2013-02-14 12:17:47 PM  

SpdrJay: I think when you call yourself "sovereign" it's like asking the government to "come at me bro!"


Not at all. When you call yourself sovereign, the government is powerless to act against you.
 
2013-02-14 12:17:49 PM  
It seems unlikely that a person could ever receive a fair trial when going up against the police since the judge and cops are on the same team.
 
m00
2013-02-14 12:18:18 PM  
Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.
 
2013-02-14 12:18:32 PM  
FTFA: "His mother, who had come out to the car, asked if it was illegal to carry a gun in a car. "I always carry one," she said."

What's up with these Sovereign Citizens always having mommy around?
 
2013-02-14 12:18:50 PM  
They think they are so farking smart, and they don't know shiat. That's what i find amusing. Nice job judge.
 
2013-02-14 12:18:56 PM  

theorellior: I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.


Go to a gun show, I am sure you can find more than one there
 
2013-02-14 12:19:20 PM  

clancifer: "...Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011..."

That's just like the Liberal Media:  Always lumping in the crazy with the stupid.


To be fair, it does appear that this individual is indeed crupid. He might even be stazy.
 
2013-02-14 12:19:28 PM  

tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her


May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?
 
2013-02-14 12:19:31 PM  
So for $75 he gets to spend the rest of his life telling all his fellow goobers how he stood up to the man and made his stand
 
2013-02-14 12:20:01 PM  

DamnYankees: The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.


And that was most likely toned down just so people could stand watching.
 
2013-02-14 12:20:03 PM  
He said it is a violation to have the high beams on within 500 feet of an approaching vehicle and within 300 feet of a vehicle you are trailing.

I hate it when drivers are inconsiderate like this. HURR DURR AH HAVES TH' RIGHT-O-WAY...

The sad thing is we need to have such a rule because people (like Mr NRA/libertarian/Teabagger/redneck here) are such rude assholes.
 
2013-02-14 12:20:16 PM  
This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.
 
2013-02-14 12:20:26 PM  

stevetherobot: SpdrJay: I think when you call yourself "sovereign" it's like asking the government to "come at me bro!"

Not at all. When you call yourself sovereign, the government is powerless to act against you.


Yet, they live in a place where the government is much bigger and more powerful than them, they use the roads and infrastructure that the government has paid for...
 
2013-02-14 12:21:25 PM  
A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video, which is why they just turn it off and call it a malfunction.
 
2013-02-14 12:21:51 PM  
Read up on the "Sovereign Citizen" movement, if you want a nervous laugh.  Complete and total crackers, every element of it.
 
2013-02-14 12:22:05 PM  
Got out of a speeding ticket once because the cop was facing east which is a Muslim thing and a violation of my Christian rights
 
2013-02-14 12:22:11 PM  
Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.
 
2013-02-14 12:22:28 PM  

banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?


It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.
 
2013-02-14 12:23:40 PM  
Not surprising he's a NRA member!
 
2013-02-14 12:24:30 PM  

Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?


Derp.
 
mhd
2013-02-14 12:24:42 PM  
50 dollar fine?
i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-14 12:25:25 PM  

red5ish: This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.


So, all cyclists everywhere, then?

/sorry for the offtopic snark
//15mph cyclist out coasting down the middle of the single-lane road this morning
///traffic backed up for miles behind him
////and yet, if we improved road safety by turning the arrogant fark into a hood ornament, we'd be the ones to go to jail
Vstill grumpy
V/this is how roman slashy numbers work, right?
 
2013-02-14 12:25:51 PM  
Sovereign Citizen, there is no bigger douche.
 
2013-02-14 12:26:17 PM  
As per the headline, Judge throws the book at as Sovereign Citizen unleashes torrent of legal justice upon our dysfunctional judicial system. That just doesn't make much sense.
 
2013-02-14 12:26:24 PM  

Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


Real Americans believing that they are a rock, they are an island, and that none of your "laws" apply to them, so they can keep doing whatever they want, like cooking meth or shooting neighbors' pets.
 
2013-02-14 12:26:26 PM  
Is "Kiesche" pronounced "quiche"?  'Cause that could be annoying over a lifetime.
 
2013-02-14 12:26:44 PM  

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.



The government makes them pay taxes and obey laws, and they think that isn't fair.

That's about all there is to it.
 
2013-02-14 12:26:44 PM  
sovereign citizen just means shirking responsibility

guess it's okay to use roads funded by taxes....
 
2013-02-14 12:27:00 PM  
Yeah!!! Authority rules!!!
 
2013-02-14 12:27:30 PM  
I think "sovereign citizen" is the legal equivalent of the medical term "borderline personality", basically it boils down to the individual being an insufferable asshole who the world is suppose to accomodate.
 
2013-02-14 12:27:40 PM  
this needs rules

I say you can only consider your self a soveriegn citizen once you acquire either

1 a nuclear arsenal
or
2 a superpower ( and a really good one at that i.e not shooting webs or climbing walls so superman level stuff)

good luck with both.
 
2013-02-14 12:27:43 PM  

Circusdog320: guess it's okay to use roads funded by taxes....


Taxation is theft.

doubled99: Yeah!!! Authority rules!!!


Just ask this guy.
 
2013-02-14 12:29:11 PM  

doubled99: Yeah!!! Authority rules!!!


Well, by definition, yes it does.

au·thor·i·ty ( -thôr -t , -th r -, ô-thôr -, ô-th r -). n. pl. au·thor·i·ties. 1. a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge
 
2013-02-14 12:29:21 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.





Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance
 
2013-02-14 12:30:08 PM  

Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc
 
2013-02-14 12:31:22 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.


Woah, weapons grade derp there.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:26 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.


I'm surprised the guy didn't claim that the government had violated his due process and his corpus delecti by recording him without getting permission from the local posse comitatus and ipso facto etcetera.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:31 PM  

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


There is no legal basis, that's why it's so much fun to mock them.  These people are either nutty enough to actually believe this crap, or they just figure that if they make big, legal-ey sounding noises, the big bad gubmint will run away in terror.  JohnAnnArbor referred to it as cargo-cult law upthread, and I'd say that's about right:  They know that certain things can have a legal effect, but they have no clue why they work, or what, exactly, the effect is.  As a result, they come up with all manner of insane shiat and run with it.  One sovereign citizen tells another one about their crackpot theory and gets another one from them, and the ideas, both really wrong on their own, kind of merge and fuse into a third crazy idea.  Continue like that several times over and you get the "movement."  Same reason sites like AboveTopSecret and Infowars read like such conspiracy theory alphabet soup.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:45 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.

Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance


This.

He was lucky that he wasn't charged with failure to stop for the police. He probably got off on that charge because of the camera malfunction.
 
2013-02-14 12:32:08 PM  
He's on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/spike.kiesche

And -- wait for it -- Model Mayhem:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/496809
 
2013-02-14 12:33:25 PM  
"Torrent of justice"

Plz seed!!!
 
2013-02-14 12:33:53 PM  
I was expecting a story about a literal book being thrown at a judge.  Now I feel cheated.
 
2013-02-14 12:33:58 PM  

Zenith: I say you can only consider your self a soveriegn citizen once you acquire either

1 a nuclear arsenal
or
2 a superpower ( and a really good one at that i.e not shooting webs or climbing walls so superman level stuff)


Dmitri Ravinoff nods in approval.
 
2013-02-14 12:34:13 PM  
Here's a guy by that name in Chattanooga:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-kiesche/25/7b5/441

Huh.
 
2013-02-14 12:34:55 PM  

banandar123: May I ask why a tiny asian girl threw a book at you?


she was actually throwing it at another person, who it turned out is amazingly agile for a somewhat heavy set fellow.
 
2013-02-14 12:36:08 PM  

Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.


Oh, there's even better stuff out there.

For instance, some people claim that the American flag isn't REALLY the American flag - it's the military flag. The U.S. Civil Flag for Peacetime is our REAL flag.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

The examples are of U.S. Customs flag at customs houses.

This is particularly herptastic:

Before 1940, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states except in federal settings and installations. Only state flags did. Since the 1935 institution of Social Security and the Buck Act of 1940, 4 U.S.C.S. Ch. 4 Sec. 104-113, by clever legal maneuvers the feds have entirely circumvented the U.S. Constitution, and have overlaid federal territorial jurisdiction on the sovereign States, bringing them under the admiralty/military jurisdiction of Law Merchant, the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), the law of Creditors and Debtors.

Since then the U.S. military flag appears beside, or in place of, the state flags in nearly all locations within the states. All of the state courts and even the municipal ones now openly display it. In the last half century they have more openly declared the military/admiralty law jurisdiction with the addition of the gold fringe to the flag, the military flag of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.

Such has been the path that has brought us under the Law of the Military Flag. This should have raised serious questions from many citizens long ago, but we've been educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think for ourselves and search for the truth.
 
2013-02-14 12:36:43 PM  
I don't understand idiots like this.  I know they're crazy but did he really think that this would work or was worth pulling over 75 dollars?
 
2013-02-14 12:37:05 PM  
give me doughnuts

The government makes them pay taxes and obey laws, and they think that isn't fair.

That's about all there is to it.


Yeah, but everyone thinks that.  They just take it to the next derpy/moran level.
 
m00
2013-02-14 12:37:49 PM  

Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance


Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.
 
2013-02-14 12:38:31 PM  
How dare she ignore his Derp defense.
 
2013-02-14 12:40:29 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Here's a guy by that name in Chattanooga:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-kiesche/25/7b5/441

Huh.


Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga coo-coo?
 
m00
2013-02-14 12:41:04 PM  

ongbok: He was lucky that he wasn't charged with failure to stop for the police. He probably got off on that charge because of the camera malfunction.


There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.
 
2013-02-14 12:41:22 PM  
"He was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation."

and by "throws the book at, you mean "made to pay $75"?  must not be a college textbook.
 
2013-02-14 12:42:10 PM  

MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


US Grant called. He'd like a word or two about events since 1776.
 
2013-02-14 12:42:26 PM  
I hate everyone in this story.
 
2013-02-14 12:43:38 PM  

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.




Perhaps. The thing is we are talking about a ticket costing 75 dollars. It's not like they found a dead hooker in his trunk. Trust me that's embrassing
 
2013-02-14 12:43:43 PM  
Judge Paty found Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011, guilty on all counts.

Wow, the Baggers really are the gift that keeps on giving.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:03 PM  

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.


True enough, but that's not the allegation in this case.  The idiot isn't claiming that there's some particular element of procedure that wasn't followed (at least not one that's actually an element of proper procedure in the reality-based community), he's claiming that the cops/the court generally lack the power to assert authority over him.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:06 PM  

Famous Thamas: Woah, weapons grade derp there: "The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America."


Listen, and understand. That fringed flag is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:19 PM  
When you act as your own attorney, you have a fool for a client.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:40 PM  

MugzyBrown: We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.


You never took a Civics class, and still decided to remain in the country anyway?
 
2013-02-14 12:45:37 PM  

CheatCommando: MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc

US Grant called. He'd like a word or two about events since 1776.


So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?
 
2013-02-14 12:47:07 PM  

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.

We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).  Basically, what you're saying is, sovereign citizens believe they were born into a set of circumstances which they find disagreeable, and therefore are not obligated by any authority to obey the laws of the land.

CSB, the same thing happened to me when Verizon took over alot of Alltell's wireless network here.  I was told by a guy working at the Verizon store that because I hadn't signed a contract with Verizon, I could cancel the service and not be forced to pay the cancellation fee.  Long story short, it was cheaper to pay the cancellation fee than to hire a lawyer and go to court over the cancellation fee, so I still had to pay it, even though I didn't have a contract with Verizon. End CSB.

I'm not going to mock these people trying to get out of fines and taxes, because hey, who doesn't want to not give away their money, but I would argue that if you use the roads paid for by a government entity, if you use the currency manufactured by a governemnt entity, if you take advantage of any other services provided by a government entity, then you have indeed knowingly entered into a contract with said government to observe any and all laws regulating the use of said services.  Don't like the rules?  Get out of Dodge.  Nobody is forcing you to remain a US citizen.  There are several other countries to choose from.

I'll agree that sometimes it's necessary for a people to dissolve the ties to their governement.  I will not agree that that time is whenever you get a parking ticket you don't like, or when you have to pay the same taxes everyone else does.
 
2013-02-14 12:47:36 PM  

MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


Because the US could only "do it with the British" after the French helped us win a military victory.

So if NJ wants to fight a 13-year war against the US, or if Newark wants to do battle, or if a single sovereign citizen wishes to declare their independence, let them do it the way the Founders did - you mail them a letter, fire a few musket-shots and win a goddamn war.

// it helps to kill many officers in their sleep on Christmas morning
// not that I advocate doing that - insurrection and murder of military officials are still against most state/federal laws
 
2013-02-14 12:48:25 PM  

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.


video recording isn't necessary to prove proper procedure was followed.

And no, fruits of the poisonous tree doctrine wouldn't apply.
 
2013-02-14 12:48:27 PM  
Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?
 
2013-02-14 12:50:22 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


No, which of course is just proof of how severely we are being oppressed.
 
2013-02-14 12:51:38 PM  

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.

We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


The book "diamond age" by Neil Stephenson paints a fairly grim picture of what life might be like where the accident of your birth has little bearing on your sovereign affiliation. Worth a read.

Additionally, irrespective of a persons consent, they consume resources from the moment of their inception that are either the product of or preserved by the state. The consumption of those resources is tacit consent to abide by the terms of the social contract which enables those resources to exhist.
In the special case of democratic revolution, the renunciation of the social contract between a people and its government must be carried out by a consensus of those people due to a commonly held belief that the government in question has already breached the terms of the contract.

So I guess what I'm saying is...you farking fail teabaggers! You had your shot and the black guy still got the most votes.
 
2013-02-14 12:51:49 PM  

MugzyBrown: So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?


Yes.  Duh.
 
2013-02-14 12:52:34 PM  

Farce-Side: So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).


I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.  Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.
 
2013-02-14 12:53:30 PM  

over_and_done: red5ish: This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.

So, all cyclists everywhere, then?

/sorry for the offtopic snark
//15mph cyclist out coasting down the middle of the single-lane road this morning
///traffic backed up for miles behind him
////and yet, if we improved road safety by turning the arrogant fark into a hood ornament, we'd be the ones to go to jail
Vstill grumpy
V/this is how roman slashy numbers work, right?


Without in any way invalidating your frustration I must point out that there are lots more drivers than bikers and that there are more idiot drivers than all the idiot bikers added together. Don't even get me started on people bringing their double wide baby strollers into the grocery store.
 
2013-02-14 12:53:59 PM  

theorellior: I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.



Exports tariffs are unconstitutional.

:-)
 
2013-02-14 12:54:18 PM  

Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.


It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.
 
2013-02-14 12:55:49 PM  
You can fark with cops, courts, judges etc. ALL YOU WANT.

You can also tell the mugger who has a knife against your ribs that he has "NO RIGHT" to demand your money.

Expect similar results.
 
2013-02-14 12:57:54 PM  

geekbikerskum: Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.

It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.


Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:06 PM  

Day_Old_Dutchie: He said it is a violation to have the high beams on within 500 feet of an approaching vehicle and within 300 feet of a vehicle you are trailing.

I hate it when drivers are inconsiderate like this.



I accidentally left my high beams on the other day.   Someone flashed me to let me know.   I thought to myself  "Shall I turn them off,  wave a friendly apology and get on with my life?  Or shall I be an ass and take it all the way to court?"  Decisions, decisions.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:38 PM  

m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals and Mitt Romney in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways.

 
2013-02-14 01:00:01 PM  

m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.


Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.
 
2013-02-14 01:01:50 PM  

Amos Quito: Exports tariffs are unconstitutional.
:-)


Well, in that case, I'll just charge him a processing fee for customs.
 
2013-02-14 01:02:20 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?



A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.
 
2013-02-14 01:02:48 PM  

geekbikerskum: Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.

It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.


Wow, what the hell...

Reasons I know this is bunk: If any of this had any sort of merit, some scumbag lawyer would have tried it already.
 
2013-02-14 01:03:06 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.


That's the thing.  You can leave.  You are not forced to stay within those imaginary lines.  I have yet to see a sovereign citizen case that is about actual rights or individual independence.  All of them are about avoiding responsibility.  If you don't want the responsibility of obeying traffic laws, don't drive.  If you don't want the responsibility of paying property taxes, don't own a home.  You aren't forced to do these things by that contract signed 250 years ago.  These sovereign citizens aren't advocating revolution or the toppling of a corrupt government.  They're advocating gaming the system, the same system that gives them the right to try and game it.  If their arguments were based more on solid principles and less on semantics, they might gain more respect.
 
2013-02-14 01:04:47 PM  
I met one of these guys once in a laundromat. I was waiting for him to mention the gold fringe on the flag but he didn't. Instead he talked about his time in court where he talked about putting .02 stamps on all his documentation or something.
 
2013-02-14 01:06:21 PM  

heypete: m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.

Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.




This is particularly true for ladies. I wonder what would be his defense would be if he struck a car and had no insurance ?
 
2013-02-14 01:07:03 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.


Well... no, not really. It's an officer's job to know what the limits of his reasonable authority are in a given situation, not every philosophical nuance of the controlling opinion of the appellate court that established those limits back in 1903 with the landmark case of  Joe v. Schmoe. It sounds like this guy rattled off a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to try to confuse the cop in question into forgetting that it's okay to pull someone over when you witness a traffic violation. Not surprisingly, it didn't work. The correct procedure in that case is to write the ticket and let the esteemed legal theorist explain to the traffic court judge why school zone speed limits don't apply to vehicles with an odd number of wheels.
 
2013-02-14 01:07:38 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.


You missed the last sentence that said "the new video systems are set up so the video can not be altered.". So you'd throw a case out based on hearsay by the defendant? Good thing you're not a judge.
 
2013-02-14 01:07:55 PM  

Chuck Wagon: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.


I think I see the problem.
 
2013-02-14 01:08:07 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract. Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.


So your proposal is that we pass a new Constitution and/or overthrow all laws and the government every time someone is born.
 
2013-02-14 01:08:08 PM  

Farce-Side: MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.

That's the thing. You can leave. You are not forced to stay within those imaginary lines.


Exactly. When you turn 18 you are legally able to attempt to emigrate. If you decide to stay, you are consenting to the laws of the country. If you then also get a job with a taxable income, you are consenting to pay taxes on that income.

If you don't like it, GTFO.
 
2013-02-14 01:09:53 PM  

Curry and beer: Day_Old_Dutchie: He said it is a violation to have the high beams on within 500 feet of an approaching vehicle and within 300 feet of a vehicle you are trailing.

I hate it when drivers are inconsiderate like this.


I accidentally left my high beams on the other day.   Someone flashed me to let me know.   I thought to myself  "Shall I turn them off,  wave a friendly apology and get on with my life?  Or shall I be an ass and take it all the way to court?"  Decisions, decisions.


I've come across a lot of morons driving with high beams on all the time lately.  And many will not turn them off even if you flash to let them know.  Not sure if dumb or passive-aggressive.
 
2013-02-14 01:14:16 PM  

sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.


Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.
 
2013-02-14 01:14:51 PM  
The idea of freedom as a right of individuals didn't come about until the rise of the abolition movement in the 1840s. Prior to that, freedom was thought of as a national thing.
 
2013-02-14 01:15:19 PM  

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).

I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.  Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.


One thing people tend to forget about this whole "sovereignty" thing is that countries only survive their infancy if they can defend themselves and enforce laws. Or if other countries take a severe amount of pity on them. I understand what you're saying, but what your suggesting simply isn't possible without violent action. I'd love to see a community give it a try, though, just to see the look on their faces when the reality of being a sovereign nation tore their fantasy 15 new gaping assholes.
 
2013-02-14 01:16:37 PM  
I guarantee this doosh has done time, and hard time at that.

/a jailhouse JD
//lots of free time with law books
///which he can't comprehend
 
2013-02-14 01:17:49 PM  

geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.


it looks cool.
 
2013-02-14 01:19:29 PM  

geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.


From what I've read, it's just an aesthetic thing. Yellow is a nice contrasting color, and frames the flag nicely against any background. It's found on indoor-use flags.
 
2013-02-14 01:23:56 PM  

stevetherobot: SpdrJay: I think when you call yourself "sovereign" it's like asking the government to "come at me bro!"

Not at all. When you call yourself sovereign, the government is powerless to act against you.


Which worked so well in this case, I see.
 
2013-02-14 01:24:07 PM  

sprgrss: geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.

it looks cool.


Yep - It's pretty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flag#Decoration

"However, according to the Army Institute of Heraldry, which has official custody of the flag designs and makes any change ordered, there are no implications of symbolism in the use of fringe "

http://web.archive.org/web/20060911213421/http://www.tioh.hqda.penta go n.mil/FAQ/FringeOnAmFlg.htm

"Gold fringe is used on the National flag as an honorable enrichment only. It is not regarded as an integral part of the flag and its use does not constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statutes. "

The idea that it is a special millitary flag comes from this:
'President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides." '

Which in reality does not state that a flag with fringes makes the place a military installation, but that the military damn well better use a flag that looks cool. It does not prevent others from also using a cool looking flag.
 
2013-02-14 01:29:27 PM  
Saying it doesn't make it farking so!
 
2013-02-14 01:37:43 PM  

cefm: Saying it doesn't make it farking so!


Which is why I'm not getting daily knob jobs from Yuma Asami, despite all my best efforts.
 
2013-02-14 01:39:03 PM  
How to fix the problem:

Teacher: 'You're all refusing to come into the classroom and take the test because it's graded on a curve?'
Students: 'Yes!'
Teacher: 'Whose brilliant idea was this?'
Student 1 raises hand.
Teacher: 'One bonus point for finding a novel solution. Now all you need to do is convince your classmates to stay out here for the next... 49 minutes.'
 
2013-02-14 01:44:56 PM  

heypete: Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.


Of course, then you run the danger of pissing off cops for not pulling over soon enough.
 
2013-02-14 01:45:32 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.


But that's the way it has always been.  We are lucky to even have a contract.  Most people throughout history were born into a kingdom or an empire and were subject to whatever the ruler wanted.  Everyone in the history of civilization has been born into a 'system' of some kind or another, and they have the choice to either stay or leave.

These people are more than welcome to form their own country in the same way countries have always been formed.  They can buy land from another country and then set up whatever, or they can invade and conquer land from another country, or they can discover new land and claim it.  I'm sure with enough money some south pacific country would sell an island free and clear.  Then they can defend their new country, set up an economy, and build diplomatic relationships just like it's been done for 10,000 years.  It'll be like Civ 6: Reality Edition.

Why these people feel they are entitled to reap the benefits of living in an organized society without paying into the system or being held to its rules is beyond me.
 
kth
2013-02-14 01:45:50 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.


That's the best way I've ever heard anyone explain this.  I'm so stealing it.
 
2013-02-14 01:48:12 PM  

ignatius_crumbcake: But that's the way it has always been. We are lucky to even have a contract. Most people throughout history were born into a kingdom or an empire and were subject to whatever the ruler wanted. Everyone in the history of civilization has been born into a 'system' of some kind or another, and they have the choice to either stay or leave.

These people are more than welcome to form their own country in the same way countries have always been formed. They can buy land from another country and then set up whatever, or they can invade and conquer land from another country, or they can discover new land and claim it. I'm sure with enough money some south pacific country would sell an island free and clear. Then they can defend their new country, set up an economy, and build diplomatic relationships just like it's been done for 10,000 years. It'll be like Civ 6: Reality Edition.

Why these people feel they are entitled to reap the benefits of living in an organized society without paying into the system or being held to its rules is beyond me.


Because it's not fair!  We should have a new government/social system installed every time a person is born.
 
2013-02-14 01:48:14 PM  
This Sovereign Citizen stuff seems like a way for hillbillies to think of themselves as royalty and not much else.
 
2013-02-14 01:50:49 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Of course, then you run the danger of pissing off cops for not pulling over soon enough.


Fair enough. I'm not saying you should drive for miles and miles, skipping a bunch of exits just for the hell of it, but finding a safe, reasonable place to stop is quite understandable. If, after being stopped, the officer asks why you took so long, just say you were looking to find a safe, well-lit place to stop.

/has some cop friends
//they get pissed as hell when people think they have to stop instantly, and has had a few people stop their cars in the middle of the lane on an interstate or on a tiny left-side shoulder where the car sticks halfway into a traffic lane
 
2013-02-14 01:51:02 PM  

red5ish: over_and_done: red5ish: This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.

So, all cyclists everywhere, then?

/sorry for the offtopic snark
//15mph cyclist out coasting down the middle of the single-lane road this morning
///traffic backed up for miles behind him
////and yet, if we improved road safety by turning the arrogant fark into a hood ornament, we'd be the ones to go to jail
Vstill grumpy
V/this is how roman slashy numbers work, right?

Without in any way invalidating your frustration I must point out that there are lots more drivers than bikers and that there are more idiot drivers than all the idiot bikers added together. Don't even get me started on people bringing their double wide baby strollers into the grocery store.


I feel your pain, brother/sister/indeterminate/unspecified!

/never looks at profiles
//should probably start someday
 
2013-02-14 01:51:41 PM  

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


The "leaders" of the movement make their living giving seminars on how to use twisted pseudo-legalese to supposedly discharge debts, not pay taxes and get away with ignoring pretty much any law they feel is inconvenient. It's basically a law themed series of magic incantations. By this means a handful of people exploit the stupidity and ignorance of poorly educated losers. The pseudo-legalese is sufficiently convoluted and bizarre so as to make people think they're getting some kind of secret knowledge, as opposed to the made up BS it really is.
 
2013-02-14 01:53:22 PM  

kth: JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.

That's the best way I've ever heard anyone explain this.  I'm so stealing it.


I didn't have original idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
 
2013-02-14 01:58:50 PM  

jaybeezey: These sovereign citizen guys are usually just racist meth dealers trying to avoid paying any taxes. I'm not aware of it ever working.


Just as well, what would it look like if it did work?

A judge declares "You're right - turns out we *don't* have authority to levy taxes or enforce laws. Everyone go home - civilization was fun while it lasted."
 
2013-02-14 02:06:41 PM  
So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?

No, the US Government should make them petition the other 49 states to see if they agree with letting Oregon remove itself from the Union, as prescribed in Texas v. White. The only way a State can legally secede is with the permission or consent of the other 49.
 
2013-02-14 02:07:27 PM  
If one draws a venn diagram illustrating the relation of Tea Party Members, people who have no understanding of the U.S. constitution, and those with mental illness and/or developmental impairment, right in the nexus where the three sets overlap you will find the Sovereign Citizens.
 
2013-02-14 02:08:36 PM  
Maybe I should start acting like an 455.  I did not have my documents with me and got stopped for speeding, All in all, I paid about $500 in fines and was as cooperative as one could be. Just a 55/45, officer told me it was no big deal he'd already given out 5 in the same spot that day.  I was disappointed with myself, no tickets for years.
/unCSB


The people who promulgate this sovereign citizen stuff need to be shutdown. It's all just pure BS but they fool desperate people out of money for DVDs and books. I know someone who is caught up in it and you he is smart, very technical job and he is successful. But he eats this stuff up. sad
 
2013-02-14 02:11:19 PM  
If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.
 
2013-02-14 02:15:19 PM  
I always enjoy watching these puerile conspiranoid loons get bitach-slapped by reality.
 
2013-02-14 02:17:35 PM  

Private_Citizen: If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.


I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.
 
2013-02-14 02:18:17 PM  

PYROY: It seems unlikely that a person could ever receive a fair trial when going up against the police since the judge and cops are on the same team.


Yeah, pretty much. Justice ain't blind here in America.

That said, it's still a hell of a lot better than other places, so it's not like the system needs a total overhaul or something, we just need to reform the police system\maybe give judges some incentive to not hang out around cops. Which is not that much compared to where we could be.
 
2013-02-14 02:19:17 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.


So if the courts just changed their flags to have no gold or yellow fringes their whole argument  would go away?
 
2013-02-14 02:23:33 PM  

Tyrosine: If one draws a venn diagram illustrating the relation of Tea Party Members, people who have no understanding of the U.S. constitution, and those with mental illness and/or developmental impairment, right in the nexus where the three sets overlap you will find the Sovereign Citizens.


Wouldn't that just be one circle?
 
2013-02-14 02:25:18 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Private_Citizen: If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.

I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.


I don't think so either. At this point, Soveriegn Nations go to war over unpopulated specs.

It just goes to show how ridiculous it is for a person to claim Soveriegn status. There are countries who have a hard time defending their Soveriegn status.
 
2013-02-14 02:28:13 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.


I'm sure some shiatty island nation would agree to sell an uninhabited island for enough money.  This one looks nice: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/kanacea-island.  I bet the Koch brothers could offer Fiji a few billion dollars and buy the island with an agreement to secede after purchase and get official diplomatic recognition thrown in with the deal.
 
2013-02-14 02:38:14 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


I can think of several ways that a sovereign citizen could 'win a case' and then go tell all his buddies which leads to more people thinking hey this works.

Sovereign pulled over for speeding constests the case Arresting officer unable to make it to the JP's that day, yeah Sovereign really showed those fascists.
Sovereign has some minor case and the judge or prosecuting attorney decides it is not worth the hassle to go to trial.

Yeah but winning on a legal arguement that is not going to happen.
 
2013-02-14 02:40:04 PM  
So, to anyone wanting to declare sovereignty. From the moment of declaration, you should hereby forfeit any and all claim to contract or legal redress as a member of the nation you are declaring sovereignty from.

As of that moment you are trespassing on foreign soil, and should be subject to the same laws as undocumented immigrants. We will extradite you to any nation that will acknowledge your citizenship, of your choosing, and bill you for the costs (including infrastructure costs, like roads) that your trespass has incurred.

Failure of any nation's soil being willing to accept you will result in a lifelong garnishment of wages to cover the cost you incur to the people whose land you are a foreign visitor to.
 
2013-02-14 03:02:22 PM  

Discordulator: So, to anyone wanting to declare sovereignty. From the moment of declaration, you should hereby forfeit any and all claim to contract or legal redress as a member of the nation you are declaring sovereignty from.

As of that moment you are trespassing on foreign soil, and should be subject to the same laws as undocumented immigrants. We will extradite you to any nation that will acknowledge your citizenship, of your choosing, and bill you for the costs (including infrastructure costs, like roads) that your trespass has incurred.

Failure of any nation's soil being willing to accept you will result in a lifelong garnishment of wages to cover the cost you incur to the people whose land you are a foreign visitor to.


No, see, the really funny part is that these yahoos claim that they still enjoy all protections of the Constitution up through the 13th Amendment. Part of their mystic legal incantations is that the 14th Amendment created some distinction between "State Citizens" and "US Citizens" such that you can choose to be one without being the other. So, all Constitutional rights and protections before that point count for the "original" "State Citizens" portion and, provided you maintain that you are a citizen of your state but not a US citizen, you still get all those sweet, sweet protections.

Of course, they also believe that each State Citizen Who Is Not A US Citizen is legally owns a secret bank account of gold (I swear I am not making this up) and that any debts they owe to a "legitimate" government authority can simply be drafted against this bank account. So, take their status as being rational human beings with a grain of salt roughly the size of Iowa.
 
2013-02-14 03:16:34 PM  

Endive Wombat: theorellior: I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.

Go to a gun show, I am sure you can find more than one there


I went to my first gun show a few months ago and saw my first "Impeach the Usurper" bumper sticker in the parking lot. I LOL'd.
 
2013-02-14 03:25:36 PM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-02-14 03:44:18 PM  

theorellior: Zenith: I say you can only consider your self a soveriegn citizen once you acquire either

1 a nuclear arsenal
or
2 a superpower ( and a really good one at that i.e not shooting webs or climbing walls so superman level stuff)

Dmitri Ravinoff nods in approval.


3 a resolution from the United Nations Security Council acknowledging your aspirations for sovereignty
/scannerssceneyouknowtheone.jpeg
 
2013-02-14 03:46:14 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


Not if they actually get to trial, but in some really rural areas the courts are so swamped with these stupid sovereign lawsuits they've had to start throwing them out without any hearing at all. Of course, that just encourages them to file more stupid lawsuits.

From what I've read, the sovereign movement is based on the belief that the US abandoned the constitution back when we got rid of the gold standard, and ever since the government has been borrowing money off of every citizen as collateral. You can get this money yourself if you file the proper forms with the proper language, which then absolves you of any Federal control and the government can no longer use you for collateral, no Federal court has power over you, Federal laws don't apply, etc, etc.

/basically, derpderpderpderp
 
2013-02-14 04:10:14 PM  
i hope for some witty officer to reply to this sort of thing "sovereign citizen? without diplomatic immunity, you must obey traffic laws and? where are your diplomatic plates? and where is your passport to enter THIS
sovereign nation?"

but i doubt any LEO wants to feed this sort of behavior
 
2013-02-14 04:33:37 PM  

parasol: i hope for some witty officer to reply to this sort of thing "sovereign citizen? without diplomatic immunity, you must obey traffic laws and? where are your diplomatic plates? and where is your passport to enter THIS
sovereign nation?"

but i doubt any LEO wants to feed this sort of behavior


Like I mentioned earlier, that's when these nutballs start invoking their Constitutional rights for being "State Citizens" -- they don't need such documents, you see, because they can still claim all protections granted in the Constitution from the Articles up through the 13th Amendment.

Cake, eat, still have. As noted by others in this thread, it's 100% about wanting all the protections and benefits of society, but none of the responsibilities. So, they engage in magical thinking and "cargo-cult law" (a perfect description) to delude themselves into believing that they have gamed the system.
 
2013-02-14 04:48:04 PM  
Maybe I should start acting like an 455.  I did not have my documents with me and got stopped for speeding, All in all, I paid about $500 in fines and was as cooperative as one could be. Just a 55/45, officer told me it was no big deal he'd already given out 5 in the same spot that day.  I was disappointed with myself, no tickets for years.
/unCSB


The people who promulgate this sovereign citizen stuff need to be shutdown. It's all just pure BS but they fool desperate people out of money for DVDs and books. I know someone who is caught up in it and you he is smart, very technical job and he is successful. But he eats this stuff up. sad



I know! It's worse than the gay rights people
 
2013-02-14 04:52:18 PM  

MugzyBrown: So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?


Yes. This is settled. Done. Over with. Your side lost the goddam war in 1865.
 
2013-02-14 04:52:48 PM  

Dear Jerk: I was in court for a burned out headlight and the dumbass next to me tried this bs. The judge said something like 'you may not believe in the court, but the court believes in you.' Or maybe I saw that on a tv show. I don't know. Anyway, the judge made it clear that the defendant would lose with that strategy.


That's from Constantine. Except it's not a court line, it's God.
 
2013-02-14 04:59:51 PM  

danvon: FTFA: "His mother, who had come out to the car, asked if it was illegal to carry a gun in a car. "I always carry one," she said."

What's up with these Sovereign Citizens always having mommy around?


Well, SOMEONE needs to change their diaper when they wet themselves, and I'm sure as hell not going to do it...
 
2013-02-14 05:05:15 PM  
Back in the day, these nutbars got coats that tied in the back, and padded rooms. We need to bring those back.
 
2013-02-14 05:24:15 PM  
As someone who has no respect for law or authority or society I'm getting a big kick out of all these posts.
 
2013-02-14 05:33:32 PM  

DamnYankees: The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.


I watch a lot of L&O (or used to) but im not familiar with the episode you are talking about, do you remember any guest stars?
 
2013-02-14 05:48:48 PM  

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


Basically; sometime in the past( read 1930s-1960s) they believe that the constitution was amended. The contents of said amendment ( depending on the source either 14, 15 or 16) stripped you of your rights under the constitution. They think that, by filing forms in a very specific order at very specific times can get those rights back.

/ plus a large insurance policy the fed took out on you the day you were born.

// it's all utter loonacy
 
2013-02-14 06:36:53 PM  

unchellmatt: clancifer: "...Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011..."

That's just like the Liberal Media:  Always lumping in the crazy with the stupid.

Yeah, but which one is which? They're awfully similar. The number of "Tea Party" people who gleefully misquote, ignore, or flat out don't know anything from the Constitution beyond the Second Amendment, and don't even get that right half the time,is about on par with the "Sovereign" loonies.


FTFY.

Remember, they're also largely the same crowd that thinks they can invalidate any law they don't like, just by quoting the 10th Amendment at it.

Of course, when you quote Cooper v. Aaron at them, they get a blank look.
 
2013-02-14 06:50:11 PM  
It only works in a nation where no one can spank the smirk off a Judge.
 
2013-02-14 06:53:51 PM  
He was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation.

"Kid, whad'ya get?"

"I didn't get nothing, I had to pay $75 and pick up the garbage."

"What were you arrested for, kid?"

"Driving without a license and insurance."

And they all moved away from me on the bench there, and the hairy eyeball and all kinds of mean nasty things, till I said:

"And creating a nuisance."

And they all came back, shook my hand, and we had a great time on the bench, talkin about crime, mother stabbing, father raping, all kinds of groovy things that we was talking about on the bench.
 
2013-02-14 07:03:42 PM  

Scrotastic Method: That's from Constantine. Except it's not a court line, it's God.


That's a fairly popular line with the clergy: About 20 years ago (long before Constantine) an orthodox Christian priest sort of made it into my circle of friends. After a bit he realized I'm an atheist, and every so often he's drop that little line out there. Heard it from a couple of others over the years as well. If the line was in Hellblazer he  mighthave picked it up there, but I doubt it. It's really sort of obvious so I imagine many people come up with it independently and think they're clever.
 
2013-02-14 07:06:34 PM  
violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
.
 
2013-02-14 07:33:09 PM  
The man went to court with supporting evidence.The police had partial evidence and admitted to it being altered. Regardless if the man is "out there" he appears to be correct.This just one more example of a convoluted  legal system being abused.
 
2013-02-14 07:34:04 PM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
.


We are men of violence.
 
2013-02-14 08:09:11 PM  

DamnYankees: The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.


Are you sure it wasn't the episode where Jack McCoy grossly manipulated the law to make a political statement?  I hated that one.
 
2013-02-14 08:38:23 PM  

Circusdog320: sovereign citizen just means shirking responsibility

guess it's okay to use roads funded by taxes....


Roads are paid for by gas taxes, mostly.
 
2013-02-14 08:43:24 PM  

ignatius_crumbcake: JohnAnnArbor: I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.

I'm sure some shiatty island nation would agree to sell an uninhabited island for enough money.  This one looks nice: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/kanacea-island.  I bet the Koch brothers could offer Fiji a few billion dollars and buy the island with an agreement to secede after purchase and get official diplomatic recognition thrown in with the deal.


Watch how fast that theory goes downhill when some corporation discovers the island sits on a gas or oil field. (see Spratleys)
You and your sovereign citizenship will be lucky to get a ride back to civilization.
 
2013-02-14 08:50:04 PM  

Chuck Wagon: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.


They keep trying it because they don't want anything to do with the 'system' within which they were born, and to which they are 'involuntarily beholden.'  I don't know any sovereigns, though I have read a bit about it and that seems the most likely general explanation.
 
2013-02-14 09:15:06 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.


Is that the technical term? I just considered them armchair lawyers.

My favorite is when they argue over how their "Habeus corpus 14th due process civil rights" have been violated during a consultation and then proceed to "correct" me when I tell them they are screwed.
 
2013-02-14 09:59:08 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


:David-Wynn: Miller has never lost a case.

http://www.dwmlc.com/

/everyone who's actually tried his shiat in a real courtroom has, though
 
2013-02-14 09:59:45 PM  

Vexed Thespian: DamnYankees: The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.

I watch a lot of L&O (or used to) but im not familiar with the episode you are talking about, do you remember any guest stars?


If it's the one I'm thinking of, the ringleader was the same actor who played the disfigured burn victim on "American Horror Story."  I think it was early Jack McCoy era.

He's been on L&O a few times, in different roles.
 
2013-02-14 10:03:17 PM  

Vexed Thespian: DamnYankees: The single most frustrating, infuriating episode of Law & Order ever was about sovereign citizens. Just felt like pointing that out.

I watch a lot of L&O (or used to) but im not familiar with the episode you are talking about, do you remember any guest stars?


Found it:

http://lawandorder.wikia.com/wiki/Nullification
 
2013-02-14 10:03:29 PM  

Ed 'Too Tall' Jones: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?

:David-Wynn: Miller has never lost a case.

http://www.dwmlc.com/

/everyone who's actually tried his shiat in a real courtroom has, though


Is that website even in english?  I stared at it for 5 minutes and I still can't decipher those hieroglyphics.
 
2013-02-14 10:06:32 PM  

85blue: The man went to court with supporting evidence.The police had partial evidence and admitted to it being altered. Regardless if the man is "out there" he appears to be correct.This just one more example of a convoluted  legal system being abused.


Uh, he was found guilty of driving without a license and lack of proof of insurance.  What sort of 'evidence' do you think he presented aside from his crazed idiot ramblings?
 
2013-02-14 10:10:26 PM  

mooseyfate: Ed 'Too Tall' Jones: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?

:David-Wynn: Miller has never lost a case.

http://www.dwmlc.com/

/everyone who's actually tried his shiat in a real courtroom has, though

Is that website even in english?  I stared at it for 5 minutes and I still can't decipher those hieroglyphics.


Of course not - everyday English is too vague and imprecise for the likes of :David-Wynn: Miller.  What you're witnessing there is the power of QUANTUM-LANGUAGE-PARSE-SYNTAX-GRAMMAR.  No, seriously.  His somewhat less-cryptic personal page is here:

http://www.davidwynnmiller.com/

That one is required to be somewhat more easily parsed, since he's trying to sell you something.  Naturally.
 
2013-02-14 10:18:09 PM  
www.parisdigest.com

What an amazing painting! Truly known the world over, and throughout time.
 
2013-02-14 10:18:45 PM  
reviewsoftings.files.wordpress.com

OMG WHAT IS THIS CRAP!?
 
2013-02-14 10:32:06 PM  
The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."
The officer said he decided to call for backup.

That is hilarious.
 
2013-02-14 11:19:04 PM  
Wow. He whipped out all that derp, for just $75 plus court costs? What an asshole.
 
2013-02-14 11:25:41 PM  
poorjon, FTW.
 
2013-02-15 12:03:55 AM  

Chuck Wagon: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.


And they think that by adding weird stuff to their names, it either exempts them from having to pay social security, or income tax, or exempts them from all US government jurisdiction (I don't remember the details of the derp), so they have names like Johnny! Tea&Bagger.
 
2013-02-15 12:04:37 AM  

Ed 'Too Tall' Jones: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?

:David-Wynn: Miller has never lost a case.

http://www.dwmlc.com/

/everyone who's actually tried his shiat in a real courtroom has, though



Oh yeah.  Him.

He's a special kind of crazy.

My favorite bits are where he claims to have been dead for 35 minutes, hasn't slept for 8 years after that incident, and also hasn't aged since it.


He's almost L. Ron levels of nuts.
 
2013-02-15 12:07:17 AM  

semiotix: m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

Well... no, not really. It's an officer's job to know what the limits of his reasonable authority are in a given situation, not every philosophical nuance of the controlling opinion of the appellate court that established those limits back in 1903 with the landmark case of  Joe v. Schmoe. It sounds like this guy rattled off a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to try to confuse the cop in question into forgetting that it's okay to pull someone over when you witness a traffic violation. Not surprisingly, it didn't work. The correct procedure in that case is to write the ticket and let the esteemed legal theorist explain to the traffic court judge why school zone speed limits don't apply to vehicles with an odd number of wheels.


Right.  And even less so to have any sort of logical response to being told that due to some Admiralty Law subsection, before the 1882 revision of the law, blah blah blah means that the nutjob doesn't have to obey traffic laws.  Cops have to know the real law as it applies to their jobs, not complete delusional nonsense with the veneer of legalese.
 
2013-02-15 12:09:52 AM  

GF named my left testicle thundercles: violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
.


Pretty much.  If you're in the US, the title to your house traces back to 'right by conquest' over the Native Americans or 'right by military victory' over the Brits.  All brought to you by the gold-fringed flag bearing US government.
 
2013-02-15 01:01:11 AM  
wait, you mean my rights don't come from almighty gawd?  They are actually the result of a compact made between the occupants of the asylum?  I've never had a clearer picture of America than that.  Explains everything.
 
2013-02-15 03:32:51 AM  
Looks like that GED in law really paid off for him.
 
2013-02-15 08:51:38 AM  

Chuck Wagon: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.


I dunno, maybe the same reason Presidents get re-elected after they showed for four years that they are idiots. Wanting to believe can be a very strong motivator
 
2013-02-15 12:23:14 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.


They need to honor their queen, Orly Taitz, and be sure to capitalize "Patriotic American" in their filings.

Oh, and call the judge hearing your case a traitor...

that always helps.

/that doesn't always help
 
2013-02-15 12:25:15 PM  

PYROY: It seems unlikely that a person could ever receive a fair trial when going up against the police since the judge and cops are on the same team.


Kinda true, yet, not really the end of society.

My defense attorney buddy puts it this way:  90% of his clients are guilty of 90% of what the cops allege they did.

He basically keeps the system honest on the 10 percent remainders.
 
2013-02-15 12:26:15 PM  

banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?


Yeah, I'm curious too...that usually costs me extra.
 
2013-02-15 12:35:55 PM  

Ehcks: Farce-Side: MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.

That's the thing. You can leave. You are not forced to stay within those imaginary lines.

Exactly. When you turn 18 you are legally able to attempt to emigrate. If you decide to stay, you are consenting to the laws of the country. If you then also get a job with a taxable income, you are consenting to pay taxes on that income.

If you don't like it, GTFO.


Pretty much this.

Odd how none of these clowns ever emigrate to Somalia, which has pretty much zero federal law to intrude on their precious bodily fluids....
 
2013-02-15 01:08:43 PM  
"A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working."

How convenient. I see this happening a lot in the future.
 
2013-02-15 08:56:43 PM  

NephilimNexus: "A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working."

How convenient. I see this happening a lot in the future.


What?  People only quoting the parts of an article that are beneficial to their argument in a deliberately misleading attempt to fan faux flames of outrage?  I'm pretty sure that's been happening for a looooong time.
 
Displayed 194 of 194 comments

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report