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(The Chattanoogan)   Judge cowers as Sovereign Citizen unleashes torrent of legal justice upon our dysfunctional judicial system. And by "cowers," I mean "throws the book at"   (chattanoogan.com) divider line 194
    More: Dumbass, Judges' Rules, judicial system, criminal justice, proof of insurance, justices, Norcross, Eric Kiesche  
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16398 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Feb 2013 at 12:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-14 01:03:06 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.


That's the thing.  You can leave.  You are not forced to stay within those imaginary lines.  I have yet to see a sovereign citizen case that is about actual rights or individual independence.  All of them are about avoiding responsibility.  If you don't want the responsibility of obeying traffic laws, don't drive.  If you don't want the responsibility of paying property taxes, don't own a home.  You aren't forced to do these things by that contract signed 250 years ago.  These sovereign citizens aren't advocating revolution or the toppling of a corrupt government.  They're advocating gaming the system, the same system that gives them the right to try and game it.  If their arguments were based more on solid principles and less on semantics, they might gain more respect.
 
2013-02-14 01:04:47 PM  
I met one of these guys once in a laundromat. I was waiting for him to mention the gold fringe on the flag but he didn't. Instead he talked about his time in court where he talked about putting .02 stamps on all his documentation or something.
 
2013-02-14 01:06:21 PM  

heypete: m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.

Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.




This is particularly true for ladies. I wonder what would be his defense would be if he struck a car and had no insurance ?
 
2013-02-14 01:07:03 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.


Well... no, not really. It's an officer's job to know what the limits of his reasonable authority are in a given situation, not every philosophical nuance of the controlling opinion of the appellate court that established those limits back in 1903 with the landmark case of  Joe v. Schmoe. It sounds like this guy rattled off a bunch of mumbo-jumbo to try to confuse the cop in question into forgetting that it's okay to pull someone over when you witness a traffic violation. Not surprisingly, it didn't work. The correct procedure in that case is to write the ticket and let the esteemed legal theorist explain to the traffic court judge why school zone speed limits don't apply to vehicles with an odd number of wheels.
 
2013-02-14 01:07:38 PM  

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.


You missed the last sentence that said "the new video systems are set up so the video can not be altered.". So you'd throw a case out based on hearsay by the defendant? Good thing you're not a judge.
 
2013-02-14 01:07:55 PM  

Chuck Wagon: Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.


I think I see the problem.
 
2013-02-14 01:08:07 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract. Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.


So your proposal is that we pass a new Constitution and/or overthrow all laws and the government every time someone is born.
 
2013-02-14 01:08:08 PM  

Farce-Side: MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.

That's the thing. You can leave. You are not forced to stay within those imaginary lines.


Exactly. When you turn 18 you are legally able to attempt to emigrate. If you decide to stay, you are consenting to the laws of the country. If you then also get a job with a taxable income, you are consenting to pay taxes on that income.

If you don't like it, GTFO.
 
2013-02-14 01:09:53 PM  

Curry and beer: Day_Old_Dutchie: He said it is a violation to have the high beams on within 500 feet of an approaching vehicle and within 300 feet of a vehicle you are trailing.

I hate it when drivers are inconsiderate like this.


I accidentally left my high beams on the other day.   Someone flashed me to let me know.   I thought to myself  "Shall I turn them off,  wave a friendly apology and get on with my life?  Or shall I be an ass and take it all the way to court?"  Decisions, decisions.


I've come across a lot of morons driving with high beams on all the time lately.  And many will not turn them off even if you flash to let them know.  Not sure if dumb or passive-aggressive.
 
2013-02-14 01:14:16 PM  

sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.


Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.
 
2013-02-14 01:14:51 PM  
The idea of freedom as a right of individuals didn't come about until the rise of the abolition movement in the 1840s. Prior to that, freedom was thought of as a national thing.
 
2013-02-14 01:15:19 PM  

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).

I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.  Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.


One thing people tend to forget about this whole "sovereignty" thing is that countries only survive their infancy if they can defend themselves and enforce laws. Or if other countries take a severe amount of pity on them. I understand what you're saying, but what your suggesting simply isn't possible without violent action. I'd love to see a community give it a try, though, just to see the look on their faces when the reality of being a sovereign nation tore their fantasy 15 new gaping assholes.
 
2013-02-14 01:16:37 PM  
I guarantee this doosh has done time, and hard time at that.

/a jailhouse JD
//lots of free time with law books
///which he can't comprehend
 
2013-02-14 01:17:49 PM  

geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.


it looks cool.
 
2013-02-14 01:19:29 PM  

geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.


From what I've read, it's just an aesthetic thing. Yellow is a nice contrasting color, and frames the flag nicely against any background. It's found on indoor-use flags.
 
2013-02-14 01:23:56 PM  

stevetherobot: SpdrJay: I think when you call yourself "sovereign" it's like asking the government to "come at me bro!"

Not at all. When you call yourself sovereign, the government is powerless to act against you.


Which worked so well in this case, I see.
 
2013-02-14 01:24:07 PM  

sprgrss: geekbikerskum: sprgrss: Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.

Does anyone know what the gold fringe actually *means* and why it's there?  Is there a historical context for it?  Did it have some meaning in the past that's now vestigial?  Unfortunately trying to search for this stuff on Google turns up nothing but pages with so much derp about Freemasons, sovereign citizens, and the non-validity of the Sixteenth Amendment that it makes my eyes bleed and my brain hurt.

it looks cool.


Yep - It's pretty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Flag#Decoration

"However, according to the Army Institute of Heraldry, which has official custody of the flag designs and makes any change ordered, there are no implications of symbolism in the use of fringe "

http://web.archive.org/web/20060911213421/http://www.tioh.hqda.penta go n.mil/FAQ/FringeOnAmFlg.htm

"Gold fringe is used on the National flag as an honorable enrichment only. It is not regarded as an integral part of the flag and its use does not constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statutes. "

The idea that it is a special millitary flag comes from this:
'President, Dwight David Eisenhower, by Executive Order No.10834, signed on August 21, 1959 and printed in the Federal Register at 24 F.R. 6865, pursuant to law, stated that: "A military flag is a flag that resembles the regular flag of the United States, except that it has a yellow fringe border on three sides." '

Which in reality does not state that a flag with fringes makes the place a military installation, but that the military damn well better use a flag that looks cool. It does not prevent others from also using a cool looking flag.
 
2013-02-14 01:29:27 PM  
Saying it doesn't make it farking so!
 
2013-02-14 01:37:43 PM  

cefm: Saying it doesn't make it farking so!


Which is why I'm not getting daily knob jobs from Yuma Asami, despite all my best efforts.
 
2013-02-14 01:39:03 PM  
How to fix the problem:

Teacher: 'You're all refusing to come into the classroom and take the test because it's graded on a curve?'
Students: 'Yes!'
Teacher: 'Whose brilliant idea was this?'
Student 1 raises hand.
Teacher: 'One bonus point for finding a novel solution. Now all you need to do is convince your classmates to stay out here for the next... 49 minutes.'
 
2013-02-14 01:44:56 PM  

heypete: Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.


Of course, then you run the danger of pissing off cops for not pulling over soon enough.
 
2013-02-14 01:45:32 PM  

MugzyBrown: I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.


But that's the way it has always been.  We are lucky to even have a contract.  Most people throughout history were born into a kingdom or an empire and were subject to whatever the ruler wanted.  Everyone in the history of civilization has been born into a 'system' of some kind or another, and they have the choice to either stay or leave.

These people are more than welcome to form their own country in the same way countries have always been formed.  They can buy land from another country and then set up whatever, or they can invade and conquer land from another country, or they can discover new land and claim it.  I'm sure with enough money some south pacific country would sell an island free and clear.  Then they can defend their new country, set up an economy, and build diplomatic relationships just like it's been done for 10,000 years.  It'll be like Civ 6: Reality Edition.

Why these people feel they are entitled to reap the benefits of living in an organized society without paying into the system or being held to its rules is beyond me.
 
kth
2013-02-14 01:45:50 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.


That's the best way I've ever heard anyone explain this.  I'm so stealing it.
 
2013-02-14 01:48:12 PM  

ignatius_crumbcake: But that's the way it has always been. We are lucky to even have a contract. Most people throughout history were born into a kingdom or an empire and were subject to whatever the ruler wanted. Everyone in the history of civilization has been born into a 'system' of some kind or another, and they have the choice to either stay or leave.

These people are more than welcome to form their own country in the same way countries have always been formed. They can buy land from another country and then set up whatever, or they can invade and conquer land from another country, or they can discover new land and claim it. I'm sure with enough money some south pacific country would sell an island free and clear. Then they can defend their new country, set up an economy, and build diplomatic relationships just like it's been done for 10,000 years. It'll be like Civ 6: Reality Edition.

Why these people feel they are entitled to reap the benefits of living in an organized society without paying into the system or being held to its rules is beyond me.


Because it's not fair!  We should have a new government/social system installed every time a person is born.
 
2013-02-14 01:48:14 PM  
This Sovereign Citizen stuff seems like a way for hillbillies to think of themselves as royalty and not much else.
 
2013-02-14 01:50:49 PM  

Satanic_Hamster: Of course, then you run the danger of pissing off cops for not pulling over soon enough.


Fair enough. I'm not saying you should drive for miles and miles, skipping a bunch of exits just for the hell of it, but finding a safe, reasonable place to stop is quite understandable. If, after being stopped, the officer asks why you took so long, just say you were looking to find a safe, well-lit place to stop.

/has some cop friends
//they get pissed as hell when people think they have to stop instantly, and has had a few people stop their cars in the middle of the lane on an interstate or on a tiny left-side shoulder where the car sticks halfway into a traffic lane
 
2013-02-14 01:51:02 PM  

red5ish: over_and_done: red5ish: This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.

So, all cyclists everywhere, then?

/sorry for the offtopic snark
//15mph cyclist out coasting down the middle of the single-lane road this morning
///traffic backed up for miles behind him
////and yet, if we improved road safety by turning the arrogant fark into a hood ornament, we'd be the ones to go to jail
Vstill grumpy
V/this is how roman slashy numbers work, right?

Without in any way invalidating your frustration I must point out that there are lots more drivers than bikers and that there are more idiot drivers than all the idiot bikers added together. Don't even get me started on people bringing their double wide baby strollers into the grocery store.


I feel your pain, brother/sister/indeterminate/unspecified!

/never looks at profiles
//should probably start someday
 
2013-02-14 01:51:41 PM  

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


The "leaders" of the movement make their living giving seminars on how to use twisted pseudo-legalese to supposedly discharge debts, not pay taxes and get away with ignoring pretty much any law they feel is inconvenient. It's basically a law themed series of magic incantations. By this means a handful of people exploit the stupidity and ignorance of poorly educated losers. The pseudo-legalese is sufficiently convoluted and bizarre so as to make people think they're getting some kind of secret knowledge, as opposed to the made up BS it really is.
 
2013-02-14 01:53:22 PM  

kth: JohnAnnArbor: Cargo-cult law.  They think if they say long, legal-sounding words, their case is airtight.

That's the best way I've ever heard anyone explain this.  I'm so stealing it.


I didn't have original idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_science
 
2013-02-14 01:58:50 PM  

jaybeezey: These sovereign citizen guys are usually just racist meth dealers trying to avoid paying any taxes. I'm not aware of it ever working.


Just as well, what would it look like if it did work?

A judge declares "You're right - turns out we *don't* have authority to levy taxes or enforce laws. Everyone go home - civilization was fun while it lasted."
 
2013-02-14 02:06:41 PM  
So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?

No, the US Government should make them petition the other 49 states to see if they agree with letting Oregon remove itself from the Union, as prescribed in Texas v. White. The only way a State can legally secede is with the permission or consent of the other 49.
 
2013-02-14 02:07:27 PM  
If one draws a venn diagram illustrating the relation of Tea Party Members, people who have no understanding of the U.S. constitution, and those with mental illness and/or developmental impairment, right in the nexus where the three sets overlap you will find the Sovereign Citizens.
 
2013-02-14 02:08:36 PM  
Maybe I should start acting like an 455.  I did not have my documents with me and got stopped for speeding, All in all, I paid about $500 in fines and was as cooperative as one could be. Just a 55/45, officer told me it was no big deal he'd already given out 5 in the same spot that day.  I was disappointed with myself, no tickets for years.
/unCSB


The people who promulgate this sovereign citizen stuff need to be shutdown. It's all just pure BS but they fool desperate people out of money for DVDs and books. I know someone who is caught up in it and you he is smart, very technical job and he is successful. But he eats this stuff up. sad
 
2013-02-14 02:11:19 PM  
If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.
 
2013-02-14 02:15:19 PM  
I always enjoy watching these puerile conspiranoid loons get bitach-slapped by reality.
 
2013-02-14 02:17:35 PM  

Private_Citizen: If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.


I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.
 
2013-02-14 02:18:17 PM  

PYROY: It seems unlikely that a person could ever receive a fair trial when going up against the police since the judge and cops are on the same team.


Yeah, pretty much. Justice ain't blind here in America.

That said, it's still a hell of a lot better than other places, so it's not like the system needs a total overhaul or something, we just need to reform the police system\maybe give judges some incentive to not hang out around cops. Which is not that much compared to where we could be.
 
2013-02-14 02:19:17 PM  

rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.


So if the courts just changed their flags to have no gold or yellow fringes their whole argument  would go away?
 
2013-02-14 02:23:33 PM  

Tyrosine: If one draws a venn diagram illustrating the relation of Tea Party Members, people who have no understanding of the U.S. constitution, and those with mental illness and/or developmental impairment, right in the nexus where the three sets overlap you will find the Sovereign Citizens.


Wouldn't that just be one circle?
 
2013-02-14 02:25:18 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: Private_Citizen: If you really want to be a Soveriegn Citizen, buy a private island that's outside any nations borders. Then, you really do have the right to do whatever you want.

But when you live within the defined borders of a Sovereign Nation, your ability to claim land or rights from it is directly related to wether or not you can take that nation in a fight.

I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.


I don't think so either. At this point, Soveriegn Nations go to war over unpopulated specs.

It just goes to show how ridiculous it is for a person to claim Soveriegn status. There are countries who have a hard time defending their Soveriegn status.
 
2013-02-14 02:28:13 PM  

JohnAnnArbor: I don't think any islands are unclaimed anymore, except in the Antarctic.


I'm sure some shiatty island nation would agree to sell an uninhabited island for enough money.  This one looks nice: http://www.privateislandsonline.com/islands/kanacea-island.  I bet the Koch brothers could offer Fiji a few billion dollars and buy the island with an agreement to secede after purchase and get official diplomatic recognition thrown in with the deal.
 
2013-02-14 02:38:14 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


I can think of several ways that a sovereign citizen could 'win a case' and then go tell all his buddies which leads to more people thinking hey this works.

Sovereign pulled over for speeding constests the case Arresting officer unable to make it to the JP's that day, yeah Sovereign really showed those fascists.
Sovereign has some minor case and the judge or prosecuting attorney decides it is not worth the hassle to go to trial.

Yeah but winning on a legal arguement that is not going to happen.
 
2013-02-14 02:40:04 PM  
So, to anyone wanting to declare sovereignty. From the moment of declaration, you should hereby forfeit any and all claim to contract or legal redress as a member of the nation you are declaring sovereignty from.

As of that moment you are trespassing on foreign soil, and should be subject to the same laws as undocumented immigrants. We will extradite you to any nation that will acknowledge your citizenship, of your choosing, and bill you for the costs (including infrastructure costs, like roads) that your trespass has incurred.

Failure of any nation's soil being willing to accept you will result in a lifelong garnishment of wages to cover the cost you incur to the people whose land you are a foreign visitor to.
 
2013-02-14 03:02:22 PM  

Discordulator: So, to anyone wanting to declare sovereignty. From the moment of declaration, you should hereby forfeit any and all claim to contract or legal redress as a member of the nation you are declaring sovereignty from.

As of that moment you are trespassing on foreign soil, and should be subject to the same laws as undocumented immigrants. We will extradite you to any nation that will acknowledge your citizenship, of your choosing, and bill you for the costs (including infrastructure costs, like roads) that your trespass has incurred.

Failure of any nation's soil being willing to accept you will result in a lifelong garnishment of wages to cover the cost you incur to the people whose land you are a foreign visitor to.


No, see, the really funny part is that these yahoos claim that they still enjoy all protections of the Constitution up through the 13th Amendment. Part of their mystic legal incantations is that the 14th Amendment created some distinction between "State Citizens" and "US Citizens" such that you can choose to be one without being the other. So, all Constitutional rights and protections before that point count for the "original" "State Citizens" portion and, provided you maintain that you are a citizen of your state but not a US citizen, you still get all those sweet, sweet protections.

Of course, they also believe that each State Citizen Who Is Not A US Citizen is legally owns a secret bank account of gold (I swear I am not making this up) and that any debts they owe to a "legitimate" government authority can simply be drafted against this bank account. So, take their status as being rational human beings with a grain of salt roughly the size of Iowa.
 
2013-02-14 03:16:34 PM  

Endive Wombat: theorellior: I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.

Go to a gun show, I am sure you can find more than one there


I went to my first gun show a few months ago and saw my first "Impeach the Usurper" bumper sticker in the parking lot. I LOL'd.
 
2013-02-14 03:25:36 PM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net
 
2013-02-14 03:44:18 PM  

theorellior: Zenith: I say you can only consider your self a soveriegn citizen once you acquire either

1 a nuclear arsenal
or
2 a superpower ( and a really good one at that i.e not shooting webs or climbing walls so superman level stuff)

Dmitri Ravinoff nods in approval.


3 a resolution from the United Nations Security Council acknowledging your aspirations for sovereignty
/scannerssceneyouknowtheone.jpeg
 
2013-02-14 03:46:14 PM  

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


Not if they actually get to trial, but in some really rural areas the courts are so swamped with these stupid sovereign lawsuits they've had to start throwing them out without any hearing at all. Of course, that just encourages them to file more stupid lawsuits.

From what I've read, the sovereign movement is based on the belief that the US abandoned the constitution back when we got rid of the gold standard, and ever since the government has been borrowing money off of every citizen as collateral. You can get this money yourself if you file the proper forms with the proper language, which then absolves you of any Federal control and the government can no longer use you for collateral, no Federal court has power over you, Federal laws don't apply, etc, etc.

/basically, derpderpderpderp
 
2013-02-14 04:10:14 PM  
i hope for some witty officer to reply to this sort of thing "sovereign citizen? without diplomatic immunity, you must obey traffic laws and? where are your diplomatic plates? and where is your passport to enter THIS
sovereign nation?"

but i doubt any LEO wants to feed this sort of behavior
 
2013-02-14 04:33:37 PM  

parasol: i hope for some witty officer to reply to this sort of thing "sovereign citizen? without diplomatic immunity, you must obey traffic laws and? where are your diplomatic plates? and where is your passport to enter THIS
sovereign nation?"

but i doubt any LEO wants to feed this sort of behavior


Like I mentioned earlier, that's when these nutballs start invoking their Constitutional rights for being "State Citizens" -- they don't need such documents, you see, because they can still claim all protections granted in the Constitution from the Articles up through the 13th Amendment.

Cake, eat, still have. As noted by others in this thread, it's 100% about wanting all the protections and benefits of society, but none of the responsibilities. So, they engage in magical thinking and "cargo-cult law" (a perfect description) to delude themselves into believing that they have gamed the system.
 
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