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(The Chattanoogan)   Judge cowers as Sovereign Citizen unleashes torrent of legal justice upon our dysfunctional judicial system. And by "cowers," I mean "throws the book at"   (chattanoogan.com) divider line 194
    More: Dumbass, Judges' Rules, judicial system, criminal justice, proof of insurance, justices, Norcross, Eric Kiesche  
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16391 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Feb 2013 at 12:05 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-14 12:27:43 PM

Circusdog320: guess it's okay to use roads funded by taxes....


Taxation is theft.

doubled99: Yeah!!! Authority rules!!!


Just ask this guy.
 
2013-02-14 12:29:11 PM

doubled99: Yeah!!! Authority rules!!!


Well, by definition, yes it does.

au·thor·i·ty ( -thôr -t , -th r -, ô-thôr -, ô-th r -). n. pl. au·thor·i·ties. 1. a. The power to enforce laws, exact obedience, command, determine, or judge
 
2013-02-14 12:29:21 PM

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.





Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance
 
2013-02-14 12:30:08 PM

Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc
 
2013-02-14 12:31:22 PM

rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.


Woah, weapons grade derp there.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:26 PM

m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.


I'm surprised the guy didn't claim that the government had violated his due process and his corpus delecti by recording him without getting permission from the local posse comitatus and ipso facto etcetera.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:31 PM

Farce-Side: banandar123: tlchwi02: i got hit with a 75 dollar book in the neck once, and you bet it hurt. tiny little asian girl turned out had a heck of an arm on her

May I ask why a tiny asian girl  threw a book at you?

It's not that weird, that's the same kind of kink I'm into as well.


So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap?  Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.


There is no legal basis, that's why it's so much fun to mock them.  These people are either nutty enough to actually believe this crap, or they just figure that if they make big, legal-ey sounding noises, the big bad gubmint will run away in terror.  JohnAnnArbor referred to it as cargo-cult law upthread, and I'd say that's about right:  They know that certain things can have a legal effect, but they have no clue why they work, or what, exactly, the effect is.  As a result, they come up with all manner of insane shiat and run with it.  One sovereign citizen tells another one about their crackpot theory and gets another one from them, and the ideas, both really wrong on their own, kind of merge and fuse into a third crazy idea.  Continue like that several times over and you get the "movement."  Same reason sites like AboveTopSecret and Infowars read like such conspiracy theory alphabet soup.
 
2013-02-14 12:31:45 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: m00: Not very impressed with the police

>>The officer said the driver "challenged me with different codes and stuff at first."

Oh no, the driver probably has an obnoxious level of case law memorized for just this event. Well guess what, it's an officer's job to know the laws too.

>>A tape was shown of the incident, though Kiesche claimed it had been altered and that parts were missing. The officer said initially a camera was not working. He said under the new video setup that officers have no way to alter video.

Okay, now this is BS. The camera "wasn't working properly" and parts of the stop were missing? Judge should throw out the case based on this alone.

Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance


This.

He was lucky that he wasn't charged with failure to stop for the police. He probably got off on that charge because of the camera malfunction.
 
2013-02-14 12:32:08 PM
He's on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/spike.kiesche

And -- wait for it -- Model Mayhem:
http://www.modelmayhem.com/496809
 
2013-02-14 12:33:25 PM
"Torrent of justice"

Plz seed!!!
 
2013-02-14 12:33:53 PM
I was expecting a story about a literal book being thrown at a judge.  Now I feel cheated.
 
2013-02-14 12:33:58 PM

Zenith: I say you can only consider your self a soveriegn citizen once you acquire either

1 a nuclear arsenal
or
2 a superpower ( and a really good one at that i.e not shooting webs or climbing walls so superman level stuff)


Dmitri Ravinoff nods in approval.
 
2013-02-14 12:34:13 PM
Here's a guy by that name in Chattanooga:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-kiesche/25/7b5/441

Huh.
 
2013-02-14 12:34:55 PM

banandar123: May I ask why a tiny asian girl threw a book at you?


she was actually throwing it at another person, who it turned out is amazingly agile for a somewhat heavy set fellow.
 
2013-02-14 12:36:08 PM

Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.


Oh, there's even better stuff out there.

For instance, some people claim that the American flag isn't REALLY the American flag - it's the military flag. The U.S. Civil Flag for Peacetime is our REAL flag.

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

The examples are of U.S. Customs flag at customs houses.

This is particularly herptastic:

Before 1940, no U.S. flag, civil or military, flew within the forty-eight states except in federal settings and installations. Only state flags did. Since the 1935 institution of Social Security and the Buck Act of 1940, 4 U.S.C.S. Ch. 4 Sec. 104-113, by clever legal maneuvers the feds have entirely circumvented the U.S. Constitution, and have overlaid federal territorial jurisdiction on the sovereign States, bringing them under the admiralty/military jurisdiction of Law Merchant, the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), the law of Creditors and Debtors.

Since then the U.S. military flag appears beside, or in place of, the state flags in nearly all locations within the states. All of the state courts and even the municipal ones now openly display it. In the last half century they have more openly declared the military/admiralty law jurisdiction with the addition of the gold fringe to the flag, the military flag of the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces.

Such has been the path that has brought us under the Law of the Military Flag. This should have raised serious questions from many citizens long ago, but we've been educated to listen and believe what we are told, not to ask questions, or think for ourselves and search for the truth.
 
2013-02-14 12:36:43 PM
I don't understand idiots like this.  I know they're crazy but did he really think that this would work or was worth pulling over 75 dollars?
 
2013-02-14 12:37:05 PM
give me doughnuts

The government makes them pay taxes and obey laws, and they think that isn't fair.

That's about all there is to it.


Yeah, but everyone thinks that.  They just take it to the next derpy/moran level.
 
m00
2013-02-14 12:37:49 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance


Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.
 
2013-02-14 12:38:31 PM
How dare she ignore his Derp defense.
 
2013-02-14 12:40:29 PM

JohnAnnArbor: Here's a guy by that name in Chattanooga:
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/eric-kiesche/25/7b5/441

Huh.


Pardon me boy, is that the Chattanooga coo-coo?
 
m00
2013-02-14 12:41:04 PM

ongbok: He was lucky that he wasn't charged with failure to stop for the police. He probably got off on that charge because of the camera malfunction.


There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.
 
2013-02-14 12:41:22 PM
"He was fined $50 and ordered to pay court costs on charges of not having a driver's license or proof of insurance and $25 and court costs on a light law violation."

and by "throws the book at, you mean "made to pay $75"?  must not be a college textbook.
 
2013-02-14 12:42:10 PM

MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


US Grant called. He'd like a word or two about events since 1776.
 
2013-02-14 12:42:26 PM
I hate everyone in this story.
 
2013-02-14 12:43:38 PM

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.




Perhaps. The thing is we are talking about a ticket costing 75 dollars. It's not like they found a dead hooker in his trunk. Trust me that's embrassing
 
2013-02-14 12:43:43 PM
Judge Paty found Kiesche, who was the speaker for a meeting of the Catoosa County Tea Party in 2011, guilty on all counts.

Wow, the Baggers really are the gift that keeps on giving.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:03 PM

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.


True enough, but that's not the allegation in this case.  The idiot isn't claiming that there's some particular element of procedure that wasn't followed (at least not one that's actually an element of proper procedure in the reality-based community), he's claiming that the cops/the court generally lack the power to assert authority over him.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:06 PM

Famous Thamas: Woah, weapons grade derp there: "

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America."

Listen, and understand. That fringed flag is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:19 PM
When you act as your own attorney, you have a fool for a client.
 
2013-02-14 12:44:40 PM

MugzyBrown: We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.


You never took a Civics class, and still decided to remain in the country anyway?
 
2013-02-14 12:45:37 PM

CheatCommando: MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc

US Grant called. He'd like a word or two about events since 1776.


So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?
 
2013-02-14 12:47:07 PM

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.

We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).  Basically, what you're saying is, sovereign citizens believe they were born into a set of circumstances which they find disagreeable, and therefore are not obligated by any authority to obey the laws of the land.

CSB, the same thing happened to me when Verizon took over alot of Alltell's wireless network here.  I was told by a guy working at the Verizon store that because I hadn't signed a contract with Verizon, I could cancel the service and not be forced to pay the cancellation fee.  Long story short, it was cheaper to pay the cancellation fee than to hire a lawyer and go to court over the cancellation fee, so I still had to pay it, even though I didn't have a contract with Verizon. End CSB.

I'm not going to mock these people trying to get out of fines and taxes, because hey, who doesn't want to not give away their money, but I would argue that if you use the roads paid for by a government entity, if you use the currency manufactured by a governemnt entity, if you take advantage of any other services provided by a government entity, then you have indeed knowingly entered into a contract with said government to observe any and all laws regulating the use of said services.  Don't like the rules?  Get out of Dodge.  Nobody is forcing you to remain a US citizen.  There are several other countries to choose from.

I'll agree that sometimes it's necessary for a people to dissolve the ties to their governement.  I will not agree that that time is whenever you get a parking ticket you don't like, or when you have to pay the same taxes everyone else does.
 
2013-02-14 12:47:36 PM

MugzyBrown: If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


Because the US could only "do it with the British" after the French helped us win a military victory.

So if NJ wants to fight a 13-year war against the US, or if Newark wants to do battle, or if a single sovereign citizen wishes to declare their independence, let them do it the way the Founders did - you mail them a letter, fire a few musket-shots and win a goddamn war.

// it helps to kill many officers in their sleep on Christmas morning
// not that I advocate doing that - insurrection and murder of military officials are still against most state/federal laws
 
2013-02-14 12:48:25 PM

m00: Mid_mo_mad_man: Unless he's claiming police brutality the camera not working is not a big deal. You don't need video tape to prove no liscence and lack of insurance

Well you need it to prove proper procedure was followed. Depends on when it was turned off. Fruit of the poisoned tree, and all.


video recording isn't necessary to prove proper procedure was followed.

And no, fruits of the poisonous tree doctrine wouldn't apply.
 
2013-02-14 12:48:27 PM
Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?
 
2013-02-14 12:50:22 PM

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?


No, which of course is just proof of how severely we are being oppressed.
 
2013-02-14 12:51:38 PM

MugzyBrown: Farce-Side: So what's the real basis behind this sovereign citizen crap? Nobody's ever been able to really explain it to me.

We are all born into a contract of rules we never have a chance to review and agree to.

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them,


If the US Colonies could do it with the British, why can't NJ do it with the US, or Newark with NJ, or the whatever neighborhood with Newark, etc


The book "diamond age" by Neil Stephenson paints a fairly grim picture of what life might be like where the accident of your birth has little bearing on your sovereign affiliation. Worth a read.

Additionally, irrespective of a persons consent, they consume resources from the moment of their inception that are either the product of or preserved by the state. The consumption of those resources is tacit consent to abide by the terms of the social contract which enables those resources to exhist.
In the special case of democratic revolution, the renunciation of the social contract between a people and its government must be carried out by a consensus of those people due to a commonly held belief that the government in question has already breached the terms of the contract.

So I guess what I'm saying is...you farking fail teabaggers! You had your shot and the black guy still got the most votes.
 
2013-02-14 12:51:49 PM

MugzyBrown: So if they held a vote in Oregon and 80% of the people voted that they didn't feel the US gov't represents their interests anymore and would like to be removed from the union, you think that the US gov't should forcibily make them change their mind?


Yes.  Duh.
 
2013-02-14 12:52:34 PM

Farce-Side: So, I'm going to assume you are either connected to or are somewhat sympathetic to the sovereign citizen movement (correct me if I'm wrong).


I just don't agree with the idea that some guys signed a contract 250 years ago and everybody who happens to be born within imaginary lines are forever bound by that contract.  Sure the idea of every single person being its own nation sounds silly, especially if you look at it through the context of our current government, but the idea of there being an independent nation of the Eastern Shore of Maryland isn't crazy at all.. and the idea if those people felt strongly enough about being its own nation should be killed or jailed, I do reject.
 
2013-02-14 12:53:30 PM

over_and_done: red5ish: This guy reminds me of someone who feels invulnerable because he is in a crosswalk.

So, all cyclists everywhere, then?

/sorry for the offtopic snark
//15mph cyclist out coasting down the middle of the single-lane road this morning
///traffic backed up for miles behind him
////and yet, if we improved road safety by turning the arrogant fark into a hood ornament, we'd be the ones to go to jail
Vstill grumpy
V/this is how roman slashy numbers work, right?


Without in any way invalidating your frustration I must point out that there are lots more drivers than bikers and that there are more idiot drivers than all the idiot bikers added together. Don't even get me started on people bringing their double wide baby strollers into the grocery store.
 
2013-02-14 12:53:59 PM

theorellior: I'd love to meet a "sovereign citizen" some day, it'd be even funnier if they asked to bum a cigarette and I could ask them for their customs paperwork and charge them an export tariff.



Exports tariffs are unconstitutional.

:-)
 
2013-02-14 12:54:18 PM

Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.


It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.
 
2013-02-14 12:55:49 PM
You can fark with cops, courts, judges etc. ALL YOU WANT.

You can also tell the mugger who has a knife against your ribs that he has "NO RIGHT" to demand your money.

Expect similar results.
 
2013-02-14 12:57:54 PM

geekbikerskum: Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.

It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.


Which is incredibly stupid because you would never fly a fringed flag on a ship because the fringe would be ripped off in a heartbeat.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:06 PM

Day_Old_Dutchie: He said it is a violation to have the high beams on within 500 feet of an approaching vehicle and within 300 feet of a vehicle you are trailing.

I hate it when drivers are inconsiderate like this.



I accidentally left my high beams on the other day.   Someone flashed me to let me know.   I thought to myself  "Shall I turn them off,  wave a friendly apology and get on with my life?  Or shall I be an ass and take it all the way to court?"  Decisions, decisions.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:38 PM

m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals and Mitt Romney in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways.

 
2013-02-14 01:00:01 PM

m00: There are valid reasons to not immediately stop. Mostly due to criminals in fake police cars pulling over people on empty highways. But I think you are allowed to drive down the road to a well-lit area, or pull into a parkinglot, or something like that. Depends on the situation and the area. In some places, you are allowed to drive to the nearest police station if you really want to.


Sure, but in those cases you generally should -- as a courtesy to the officer -- indicate in some way that you acknowledge that he's requiring you to stop but that you're briefly proceeding to a safe area: put on a turn signal, slow down, or acknowledge the demand to stop in some other way. In some cases, particularly in lonely roads without anyone else around, you can call the police dispatch line, say that you're being signaled to stop by a police officer but you prefer to proceed to a well-lit area like a gas station, and they'll radio that to the officer. Simply continuing to drive on like normal is generally a bad idea.
 
2013-02-14 01:01:50 PM

Amos Quito: Exports tariffs are unconstitutional.
:-)


Well, in that case, I'll just charge him a processing fee for customs.
 
2013-02-14 01:02:20 PM

Citrate1007: Has a sovereign citizen ever won a case?



A bunch of these wackos also do weird things like copyright their own name. Then when they inevitably become involved in some sort of legal dispute they claim that they are entitled to damages every time a document has their name listed. So they sue the judge, court reporter, and basically anyone involved in the legal proceedings. Sometimes instead of suing the wacko will just file a lien on their houses.

Of course all of this nonsense gets slapped down in due time.

What I really don't understand is why these wackos keep trying this nonsense even when every other time this stuff has been tried it has failed miserably.
 
2013-02-14 01:02:48 PM

geekbikerskum: Famous Thamas: rufus-t-firefly: Did the courtroom have a FRINGED FLAG?!?!?

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/flag.htm

The flags displayed in State courts and courts of the United States have gold or yellow fringes. That is your WARNING that you are entering into a foreign enclave, the same as if you are stepping into a foreign embassy and you will be under the jurisdiction of that flag.The flag with the gold or yellow fringe has no constitution, no laws, and no rules of court, and is not recognized by any nation on the earth, and is foreign to you and the United States of America.

Woah, weapons grade derp there.

It is, and it's been around since I started reading computer BBSes in the mid 1980s.  However, I thought that under this particular brand of derp, the gold fringe signified an admiralty court where admiralty law applied.


Wow, what the hell...

Reasons I know this is bunk: If any of this had any sort of merit, some scumbag lawyer would have tried it already.
 
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