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(Marine Corps Times)   In a move that will in no way annoy combat veterans, the DOD has announced a new medal for drone pilots, and it ranks above the Bronze Star with V device. Because having to sip warm Mountain Dew 10000 miles from the front lines deserves a medal too   (marinecorpstimes.com) divider line 199
    More: Asinine, Bronze Star, Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, Distinguished Flying Cross, combat operations, unmanned aircraft, Doug Sterner  
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4791 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Feb 2013 at 3:44 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



199 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2013-02-13 11:47:28 PM
Those aren't soldiers. They're gamers.
 
2013-02-13 11:59:54 PM
Chairborne Joystick Division

/aeternum spawn campus
 
2013-02-14 12:05:18 AM
Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their GPS and helmet-mounted targeting!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their radar and guided missiles!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their jet engines and ejection seats!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their bomb bays and radios!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their single wing and enclosed cockpits!
 
2013-02-14 12:07:46 AM
Acceptance speech: Thank you, for this medal.  I could not have done it without the long hours of training and dedication to the mission.  Without that I would have gotten up to get a new Dew.  It got really tough when the Cheetos ran out all we had left was plain chips with no dip.  I almost bailed when I got the thumb cramp, it was killer.  I am glad I stuck with it and got this special medal to go along with the Purple Heart for the cramped thumb.  Also, don't let me forget to apologize to the one-legged soldier I bumped into as I walked up here.

/I am okay with not putting them in harms way, but they still deserve the snark
 
2013-02-14 12:21:01 AM
It should be below a Purple Heart. Speaking of which, do they qualify if they get carpal tunnel or lower back pain?
 
2013-02-14 12:25:42 AM
I just had a mental picture of a Top Gun remake..... "Top Drone"

Can those of you with Shop Kung Fu please complete my vision?
 
2013-02-14 12:28:04 AM

thermo: I just had a mental picture of a Top Gun remake..... "Top Drone"

Can those of you with Shop Kung Fu please complete my vision?


♫  IP to the danger zone... ♫
 
2013-02-14 12:42:08 AM
Two air forcers who got the Bronze Star for something other than throwing grenades at Nazi bunkers got cyber bullied.
Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.
 
2013-02-14 12:48:10 AM
OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF
 
2013-02-14 12:52:18 AM

namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF


I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.
 
2013-02-14 12:53:32 AM
Bronze stars can't be that special.  Ms. Kowalski used to give me a gold star every time I did my homework.  I must have gotten dozens.  And what's a v other than a half-assed check mark?  Lighten up military folks, these aren't a big deal.
 
2013-02-14 12:55:49 AM

staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.


A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:47 AM

staplermofo: Two air forcers who got the Bronze Star for something other than throwing grenades at Nazi bunkers got cyber bullied.
Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.


I'm sure this didn't help:

Gamez and other women in her group met a small child who let them clean her up. The girl was put at ease after her father and an interpreter explained why Gamez and the others had come.

"I had brought some of my Bath and Body Works lotion thinking the girls might like it, since my daughter does, and we finally struck gold!" Gamez wrote. "Once we finished cleaning the little girl, we put on some of the coconut mango body lotion and she loved it so much, we got a smile. It really lifted our spirits to see that."

 Yes, yes, I realize a Bronze star is for doing a good job in a combat area, not for being "in" combat.
 
2013-02-14 12:59:54 AM

namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF


Yeah, this is just all kinds of farked up.

It's like giving someone the Congressional medal of Honor for getting a really high score in Frogger.

Only, you know, dumber.
 
2013-02-14 01:20:17 AM
fark that.  It shouldn't even be an award.  What's next, a medal for supply requisitions that aid combatants?

If this is a troll, it's perfect.
 
2013-02-14 01:23:57 AM

Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.


this crap has been going on since vietnam.
keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.
Purple hearts require you to get injured.
but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)
yah, farkEM
 
2013-02-14 01:32:07 AM

me texan: fark that.  It shouldn't even be an award.  What's next, a medal for supply requisitions that aid combatants?


They have those too.  There were medals for going 3 years without a major screw up while in the reserves.  A chest full of medals doesn't mean someone's a war hero.  Didn't you watch any WW2 movies? 
Nobody is going to be confused about what this medal is for or what having it means.  It's not taking anything away from anyone.  It can't be much different from an officer who works in an office in peacetime outranking a guy who served 5 tours, lost 4 limbs and saved 500 lives.  Everybody understands the difference.  These people do some important things and their superiors ought to have a way to recognize them for it.
 
2013-02-14 01:55:04 AM

namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.
keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.
Purple hearts require you to get injured.
but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)
yah, farkEM


Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related?  My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low.  He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane.  Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.
 
2013-02-14 02:05:45 AM

Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.


That's counting only survivors.
 
2013-02-14 02:07:58 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.


And after they get out
 
2013-02-14 02:11:37 AM

staplermofo: Two air forcers who got the Bronze Star for something other than throwing grenades at Nazi bunkers got cyber bullied.
Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.


The military really needs to just get rid of the Bronze Star as a  non-combat award.  Very few civilians understand the difference between a Bronze Star Medal and a BSM with Valor Device.  Even people within the military aren't immune to that, due to the blowback against those two.

Nobody bats an eye if two Fobbits get a Meritorious Service Medal.  But when the standard award for being killed in action is a Bronze Star, people are going to get pissed when two farking Comptrollers get one.
 
2013-02-14 02:14:01 AM

namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF




One of my friends was a drone pilot and lived on a forward operating base in Afghanistan. I always thought the army had all their drone pilots on the front lines. And that CIA and Air Force operated from the States.
 
2013-02-14 02:20:08 AM

namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF


During the air campaign over Kosovo, the Pentagon discovered that only 10% of the personnel awarded Bronze Stars were actually in hostile airspace, including five officers who never left their permanent base in Missouri.

http://www.stripes.com/news/pentagon-reviewing-bronze-star-awards-1. 42 268
 
2013-02-14 02:22:43 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: And after they get out


No it's not after they get out.
 
2013-02-14 03:50:58 AM
If you're bored, check out Wikipedia's list of military awards and decorations. You'll be surprised by some of the things they hand out medals for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_St at es_military

A chest full of medals sometimes simply means that you've put in a lot of time without farking up too badly.
 
2013-02-14 03:54:16 AM

EngineerAU: If you're bored, check out Wikipedia's list of military awards and decorations. You'll be surprised by some of the things they hand out medals for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awards_and_decorations_of_the_United_St at es_military

A chest full of medals sometimes simply means that you've put in a lot of time without farking up too badly.


Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.
 
2013-02-14 03:54:54 AM
Maybe they should get Xbox achievement points instead?
 
2013-02-14 03:56:02 AM

Teknowaffle: Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.


Please tell me that the ribbon was green with dollar bill signs on it.
 
2013-02-14 03:56:16 AM
YOU'RE EITHER FOR OUR TROOPS OR AGAINST THEM!!! BRONZE STARS AND PURPLE HEARTS FOR EVERYONE!
 
2013-02-14 03:58:05 AM
Achievement unlocked or something.  So much bullshiat.
 
2013-02-14 04:02:23 AM
YOU HAVE KILLED THE GRUE.

CONGRATULATIONS!

YOU ARE NOW A HERO.  ACCEPT THIS MEDAL OF ACHIEVEMENT.

GAME OVER.

PLAY AGAIN?  Y/N
 
2013-02-14 04:02:25 AM
Medals are kinda ghey anyway
 
2013-02-14 04:02:41 AM

EngineerAU: Teknowaffle: Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.

Please tell me that the ribbon was green with dollar bill signs on it.


No, it was a meritorious service one I think. Though the note did have hints of chubby Jewess.
 
2013-02-14 04:03:37 AM

Lsherm: namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.
keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.
Purple hearts require you to get injured.
but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)
yah, farkEM

Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related?  My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low.  He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane.  Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.


The way my dad tells it, in Viet Nam, you got a Purple Heart for being injured, in a War Zone. Didn't matter how. He got issued a Purple Heart for breaking an arm, falling off a ladder, painting a building - in Viet Nam. He was surprised when someone came by and gave it to him and tried to refuse it. As far as I know (and knowing him) he never wore it. It's in a separate box put away from his uniform.
 
2013-02-14 04:03:48 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: Chairborne Joystick Division

/aeternum spawn campus


I like that.

You win
 
2013-02-14 04:03:59 AM

Teknowaffle: namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF

One of my friends was a drone pilot and lived on a forward operating base in Afghanistan. I always thought the army had all their drone pilots on the front lines. And that CIA and Air Force operated from the States.


Most likely Your friend flew a "Raven" if he was on a FOB, A hand thrown video camera with wings. A Predator, on the other hand can be flown from Tampa , Nellis or any number of other bases. It has the ability to shoot back.
 
2013-02-14 04:04:59 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.

And after they get out


And facing North or North by NorthEast.
 
2013-02-14 04:07:27 AM
I feel really bad for the families of the soldiers and civilians killed in the disintegration booths when the random number generator pulls their number.
 
2013-02-14 04:08:47 AM

staplermofo: me texan: fark that.  It shouldn't even be an award.  What's next, a medal for supply requisitions that aid combatants?

They have those too.  There were medals for going 3 years without a major screw up while in the reserves.  A chest full of medals doesn't mean someone's a war hero.  Didn't you watch any WW2 movies? 
Nobody is going to be confused about what this medal is for or what having it means.  It's not taking anything away from anyone.  It can't be much different from an officer who works in an office in peacetime outranking a guy who served 5 tours, lost 4 limbs and saved 500 lives.  Everybody understands the difference.  These people do some important things and their superiors ought to have a way to recognize them for it.


This is wrong.  More medals equals more points for promotion.  The rate at which they receive medals is already outrageous. Why do they need another boost above people who actually see combat?
 
2013-02-14 04:12:24 AM

Charlie Freak: Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their GPS and helmet-mounted targeting!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their radar and guided missiles!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their jet engines and ejection seats!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their bomb bays and radios!

Yeah, damn these new "pilots" with their single wing and enclosed cockpits!


This is an award for "pilots" who don't fly, as well as people who aren't piloting anything.
 
2013-02-14 04:12:33 AM
i've met and spoke with many veterans in my day. not a single one had concerns about medals. i would make sure to thank co-workers who i knew were vets for their service on Veteran's Day. most of them looked at me like i was crazy. they never wanted to be there to begin with.
 
2013-02-14 04:12:59 AM

Axel_Gear: This is wrong. More medals equals more points for promotion. The rate at which they receive medals is already outrageous. Why do they need another boost above people who actually see combat?


It's like preschool these days.  We don't want the kids who eat crayons to feel bad now, do we?  ;)
 
2013-02-14 04:15:42 AM
I dont think it should be above a bronze star but those people should have a path for medals.  They spend a lot of time in intense situations.  They do KILL PEOPLE.  I couldnt imagine the stress of taking out a target and possibly taking out innocents as well.
 
2013-02-14 04:16:19 AM
www.destructoid.com
 
2013-02-14 04:21:15 AM
polish that sucker up to a mirror shine and you can see the faces of "collateral damage"
 
2013-02-14 04:23:26 AM
I just found a picture of it. Not bad.

http://imgur.com/qKlSbli
 
2013-02-14 04:23:34 AM

Axel_Gear: staplermofo: me texan: fark that.  It shouldn't even be an award.  What's next, a medal for supply requisitions that aid combatants?

They have those too.  There were medals for going 3 years without a major screw up while in the reserves.  A chest full of medals doesn't mean someone's a war hero.  Didn't you watch any WW2 movies? 
Nobody is going to be confused about what this medal is for or what having it means.  It's not taking anything away from anyone.  It can't be much different from an officer who works in an office in peacetime outranking a guy who served 5 tours, lost 4 limbs and saved 500 lives.  Everybody understands the difference.  These people do some important things and their superiors ought to have a way to recognize them for it.

This is wrong.  More medals equals more points for promotion.  The rate at which they receive medals is already outrageous. Why do they need another boost above people who actually see combat?


This is absolutely true.  Flyers in general get treated fairly well in regard to pay and promotion opportunities.  Granted, they're pretty regularly abused for TDYs, they're pretty much guaranteed to be an "enabled" personnel which puts them outside a scheduled deployment regimen, but in the end that's the trade off.  You trade some semblance of a routine for the adventure and perks.

Now, with UAV personnel, you have people that get most of the advantages without really facing any of the negatives.  It's also less selective as the physical requirements are less stressed.  If UAV programs were used to cycle pilots and other aircrew members through to get a break while still accruing flight hours, that'd be cool.  More and more though it's becoming it's own career path while trying to justify keeping the perks of regular aircrew members while not facing the drawbacks of being one.
 
2013-02-14 04:24:14 AM

Malky: I dont think it should be above a bronze star but those people should have a path for medals.  They spend a lot of time in intense situations.  They do KILL PEOPLE.  I couldnt imagine the stress of taking out a target and possibly taking out innocents as well.


You didn't kill any innocents, son. You killed the enemy. You did well. You prevented a good soldier from having to go out there and die, when you played a video game. In your reality, your real life, you will never see these targets. So, be thankful that we have this technology. These "innocents" you talk about, well, do NOT mention them anymore. Were they on the screen that you were commanded to monitor? Yes? I don't think you saw that son. Computer FI!
 
2013-02-14 04:26:50 AM
Heh, from my exposure to veteran's conversations on ANZAC day the Aussies and Brits generally make fun of how easy it is to earn medals within the US forces. "Finish basic training and you get a medal", "Shoot straight and you get a medal"... "Take a dump (et al.) and you get a medal, haw haw haw". This new medal won't help that reputation. A new reinforcement of the snowflake culture?
 
2013-02-14 04:27:27 AM
By this logic, these soldiers should also be eligible for a CAB, right?
 
2013-02-14 04:33:34 AM
All these kids are getting the Bronze Star as we speak.

www.pearlanddean.com
 
2013-02-14 04:33:37 AM
 
2013-02-14 04:33:58 AM
Farkers get a bronze star + V?  Wow.  I'd support this if they were wired to batteries that delivered a lethal voltage if they lost the drone in combat.  But.... probably not so much

//Bronze Star OEF 2010-2011
//CAB, OEF 2010-2011
// Actually shot at by the taliban
 
2013-02-14 04:34:55 AM

Summoner101: More and more though it's becoming it's own career path while trying to justify keeping the perks of regular aircrew members while not facing the drawbacks of being one.


And it would really be terrible if less people were injured/killed/psychologically-affected. I mean, what's the point of war if we aren't keeping up on our share of the death and destruction?
 
2013-02-14 04:36:56 AM

kyrg: Teknowaffle: namatad: OMG
seriously
bronze stars require you to be in a combat zone

WTF

One of my friends was a drone pilot and lived on a forward operating base in Afghanistan. I always thought the army had all their drone pilots on the front lines. And that CIA and Air Force operated from the States.

Most likely Your friend flew a "Raven" if he was on a FOB, A hand thrown video camera with wings. A Predator, on the other hand can be flown from Tampa , Nellis or any number of other bases. It has the ability to shoot back.


Still has to be boots on ground to land the thing.
 
2013-02-14 04:37:45 AM
This is just all kinds of stupid. I don't think any military personnel should qualify for any kind of medal if he/she wasn't in any kind of danger from the enemy whatsoever. And flying a drone 10 000 KM away from the actual action doesn't qualify.
 
2013-02-14 04:41:31 AM
Summoner101:

Now, with UAV personnel, you have people that get most of the advantages without really facing any of the negatives.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make.
 
2013-02-14 04:41:46 AM
Enough freaking medals. Just do your job like the rest of us. This ridiculous pageantry is part of our constant obsession with and hero-worship of the military that makes it impossible to have a reasonable conversation about our role in the world and the fact that we account for half of the world's defense spending, while totally broke. "Defense" indeed.
 
2013-02-14 04:46:53 AM

profplump: Summoner101: More and more though it's becoming it's own career path while trying to justify keeping the perks of regular aircrew members while not facing the drawbacks of being one.

And it would really be terrible if less people were injured/killed/psychologically-affected. I mean, what's the point of war if we aren't keeping up on our share of the death and destruction?


Do those that don't put their lives on the line deserve the same advantages as those that do?  Does a guy sitting in a cargo container flying a remote controlled airplane deserve the same accolades as the crews flying in a combat zone daily or the soldier going outside the wire?

Drones have their place in modern warfare and yes they do mitigate American casualties while accomplishing American objectives.  There is an argument, however, that not facing the high costs of a manned flight makes us too willing to blow stuff up.
 
2013-02-14 04:47:33 AM

Axel_Gear: Summoner101:

Now, with UAV personnel, you have people that get most of the advantages without really facing any of the negatives.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make.


Which is why I was agreeing with you.
 
2013-02-14 04:47:44 AM
Medals = Promotion points. They're just a way for people to get their buddies and juniors they like promoted faster.
Be a normal E4 and go out on 14 hour missions for 6 days a week for the year, get the standard ARCOM at the end of the deployment
Be an attractive female E4 and sit at a computer in the TOC all year, get 3 ARCOMS and a Bronze Star.

Now who gets promoted first on the E5 list? Who is actually tasked with leading other soldiers and training them? The guy who went on missions or the TOC Roach who flirted with with CO/1SG all year? Yeah. Fark medals.
 
2013-02-14 04:55:22 AM
Did Ender get a medal?
 
2013-02-14 04:58:13 AM

Summoner101: Axel_Gear: Summoner101:

Now, with UAV personnel, you have people that get most of the advantages without really facing any of the negatives.

This was exactly the point I was trying to make.

Which is why I was agreeing with you.


Oh... Well... Screw you too then.

/sarcasm
 
2013-02-14 05:00:24 AM
Can you exchange them for Xbox bucks or Playstation dollars?
 
2013-02-14 05:06:27 AM

Summoner101: Do those that don't put their lives on the line deserve the same advantages as those that do?  Does a guy sitting in a cargo container flying a remote controlled airplane deserve the same accolades as the crews flying in a combat zone daily or the soldier going outside the wire?

Drones have their place in modern warfare and yes they do mitigate American casualties while accomplishing American objectives.  There is an argument, however, that not facing the high costs of a manned flight makes us too willing to blow stuff up.


Your first question presupposes that flying in a combat zone is necessarily more nobel or honorable than other missions. For any given mission that could be true, but assuming it is true for all missions seems a stretch. Is there some automatic criteria for this new medal that makes it more likely to be awarded to undeserving servicemen?

As for the cost of war, I agree there's social value in having war be expensive. But literally the entire history of military technology is related to making war more costly for the enemy than it is for ourselves; if the use of drones is not as honorable as the use of traditional planes, why is the use of guns as honorable as the use of spears?
 
2013-02-14 05:07:08 AM
It's not like playing video games, 17% of all drone pilots suffer from clinical depression related to their job and 30% are burned out.. http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout - in-u-s-drone-pilots
 
2013-02-14 05:07:22 AM
*sniff*
The generation that got medals for participating on sports day has grown up.

/dusty
 
2013-02-14 05:15:56 AM

Resident Muslim: The generation that got medals for participating on sports day has grown up.


The generation that got medals for participating on sports day got those medals from their parents.
 
2013-02-14 05:17:54 AM
Do you get more benefits or money for the medals you receive?
 If not, then it seems like nothing more than a pat on the head.
 
2013-02-14 05:19:22 AM

letthepossumlive: Do you get more benefits or money for the medals you receive?
 If not, then it seems like nothing more than a pat on the head.


You get promoted much faster based on the medals you receive. Which in turn becomes more money.
 
2013-02-14 05:20:41 AM

profplump: Summoner101: Do those that don't put their lives on the line deserve the same advantages as those that do?  Does a guy sitting in a cargo container flying a remote controlled airplane deserve the same accolades as the crews flying in a combat zone daily or the soldier going outside the wire?

Drones have their place in modern warfare and yes they do mitigate American casualties while accomplishing American objectives.  There is an argument, however, that not facing the high costs of a manned flight makes us too willing to blow stuff up.

Your first question presupposes that flying in a combat zone is necessarily more nobel or honorable than other missions. For any given mission that could be true, but assuming it is true for all missions seems a stretch. Is there some automatic criteria for this new medal that makes it more likely to be awarded to undeserving servicemen?

As for the cost of war, I agree there's social value in having war be expensive. But literally the entire history of military technology is related to making war more costly for the enemy than it is for ourselves; if the use of drones is not as honorable as the use of traditional planes, why is the use of guns as honorable as the use of spears?


Medals are meant to separate those that do from those that don't and the level of accomplishment of delegated by the level of award that you receive.  An Aerial Achievement Medal doesn't require you to fly in a combat zone, but requires you to fly in the direct support of a mission.  It's not as prestigious as an Air Medal, which requires entry in to a combat zone, but still recognizes a direct support of a military air operation.  The idea is there is an inherent risk to flight, the example being a flight off the coast of China where the crew can be intercepted and drawn down as in the case of Hainan Island.

Issuing medals that compete or dwarf medals to those that do a comparable job but don't face an ounce of the same risk is insulting to those that actually face real danger.  This is why giving Bronze Medals to those that don't face actual combat is insulting to ground troops and erodes combat troops faith in the system.  It's inherently unfair to reward those not in harms way to the same or over those that are.

You also miss the point of drones versus manned flight and guns vs spears.  With drones, the pilot is in negligible danger while the pilot of a manned flight is, in the very least, in danger of mechanical failure and crashing.  Whether the combat is with guns or spears, if the Civilization games have taught me correctly, there is still a non-zero chance the spears will kill the guys with guys.  If someone shoots down the drone, the pilot throws up his hands and goes to the canteen to fill his coffee mug.
 
2013-02-14 05:23:09 AM

Summoner101: the spears will kill the guys with guns.


/FTFM
 
2013-02-14 05:24:31 AM
Reagan's prediction has come true.
 
2013-02-14 05:27:17 AM

platedlizard: It's not like playing video games, 17% of all drone pilots suffer from clinical depression related to their job and 30% are burned out.. http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout - in-u-s-drone-pilots


So, it's JUST LIKE playing video games.

/probably should have checked to see if I'm the 5th person to make that joke.
//didn't bother.
 
2013-02-14 05:36:39 AM

Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.


Not true.  Recruiters like to mislead people about this by comparing officers with bachelors to the general population, and enlisted with high school or better.  If you combine them, the % of people in uniform with a college diploma is less than in the civilian pop.
 
2013-02-14 05:36:42 AM
Anyone who thinks collecting awards is the reason for sacrificing ones life in service to their country needs to remove their head from their ass.
 
2013-02-14 05:36:52 AM
imgace.com
 
2013-02-14 05:41:06 AM
s3.postimage.org
 
2013-02-14 05:44:13 AM
Wake up... Go to work in cubicle... Control joystick... Go home and know that you actually killed some people with a button. Try to go to sleep so you can wake up and do it again tomorrow. Yes- that farker deserves a medal.
 
2013-02-14 05:44:38 AM

Summoner101: Issuing medals that compete or dwarf medals to those that do a comparable job but don't face an ounce of the same risk is insulting to those that actually face real danger.


Again, you're assuming that "real danger" is a good and noble thing and and of itself, and that a failure to achieve "real danger" is a disqualification for medals. You're welcome to believe that, along with your own definition of "real danger", but please stop pretending it's all a settled question.

You also miss the point of drones versus manned flight and guns vs spears.

You miss my point in the analogy. Spear throwers were in much more danger than gun shooters; spears have a much smaller effective range and place the wielder in much more "real danger" than guns, therefore spear throwers are more honorable, by your own definition, and gun shooters should be subject to the same restriction in medals that you propose for drone pilots.
 
2013-02-14 05:45:35 AM

MaudlinMutantMollusk: thermo: I just had a mental picture of a Top Gun remake..... "Top Drone"

Can those of you with Shop Kung Fu please complete my vision?

♫  IP to the danger zone... ♫


I initially read that as "Top Gear," made me think of this
 
2013-02-14 05:51:05 AM
great, first there were medal whores in BF3 and MW3, now they will be able to do it in real life....
 
2013-02-14 05:52:28 AM
I'm envisioning this as a jolly, shiny, candy-like button being carried in the claws of an eagle with lightning bolts in its beak. You could add pips around the button for every 10 targets you got close to.
 
2013-02-14 05:58:48 AM

profplump: Summoner101: Issuing medals that compete or dwarf medals to those that do a comparable job but don't face an ounce of the same risk is insulting to those that actually face real danger.

Again, you're assuming that "real danger" is a good and noble thing and and of itself, and that a failure to achieve "real danger" is a disqualification for medals. You're welcome to believe that, along with your own definition of "real danger", but please stop pretending it's all a settled question.

You also miss the point of drones versus manned flight and guns vs spears.

You miss my point in the analogy. Spear throwers were in much more danger than gun shooters; spears have a much smaller effective range and place the wielder in much more "real danger" than guns, therefore spear throwers are more honorable, by your own definition, and gun shooters should be subject to the same restriction in medals that you propose for drone pilots.


For your information:
Valor : strength of mind of spirit that enables a person to encounter danger with firmness

So yes, being in "more danger" would make you more valorous.  There are other medals in place to honor those that serve in non-combat situations.  This is the military.  Putting yourself in harms way, completing objectives, and serving your country as well as your fellow soldier/airman/seaman/marine/coastie is the name of the game.  Should drone pilots be recognized?  Sure.  Should they be recognized for service comparable to those that serve in actual combat?  You'd have to show me the impact of the service they did for that medal, but it shouldn't default above a combat medal.

I was also unaware we still had many spear throwers in the US military.  If we do and they're successful, then yes, I will confess my reasoning still applies that they would deserve a higher degree of medal by default for valor.  That's pretty badass and yes, they would require more valor as they would be under a significant amount more danger to complete commiserate objectives .  Should riflemen receive no recognition for combat experience? No.  They still face the risks of combat unlike drone pilots.
 
2013-02-14 05:58:52 AM
Do drone pilots also fly the hellfire into the target?
 
2013-02-14 06:04:14 AM

Axel_Gear: This is wrong. More medals equals more points for promotion. The rate at which they receive medals is already outrageous. Why do they need another boost above people who actually see combat?


You answered your question before you asked it.
 
2013-02-14 06:05:37 AM
We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...
 
2013-02-14 06:06:18 AM

platedlizard: It's not like playing video games, 17% of all drone pilots suffer from clinical depression related to their job and 30% are burned out.. http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout - in-u-s-drone-pilots


As compared to say, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ARMY?
 
2013-02-14 06:18:52 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.


Better chance of surviving the military than the streets of Chicago:

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan
 
2013-02-14 06:20:26 AM

keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...



And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?
 
2013-02-14 06:22:17 AM

Teknowaffle: EngineerAU: If you're bored, check out Wikipedia's list of military awards and decorations. You'll be surprised by some of the things they hand out medals for.


Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.

See that's where he screwed up big time - should have kept the idea to himself for another 6 months then offered it back to the military as a "consultant".  Plan to save $millions as someone IN the military = pretty ribbon and 15 seconds of presidents time.   Plan to save $millions as someone NOT in the military = $100,000+ in consulting fees every year until the people you made look good retire or move on.

The ribbon should be among the most prestigious of the "support" medals but having zero chance of having your head blown off at any moment kind of puts it below any combat medal IMHO.
 
2013-02-14 06:28:06 AM

staplermofo: Two air forcers who got the Bronze Star for something other than throwing grenades at Nazi bunkers got cyber bullied.
Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.


Wow that's pretty pathetic. A bunch of grown adults bickering about who got what award. Unfortunately this childish mentality is everywhere, and I've seen it at every place I've ever worked. "Why does Johnny get to park in one of the front parking spaces, that's not fair....how come he gets to go and we don't...why did Amy get an award and we didn't..." People need to just focus on what they're doing and stop worrying about everyone else.
 
2013-02-14 06:29:09 AM
Reasonable to post this?

http://youtu.be/GPFjToKuZQM
 
2013-02-14 06:30:58 AM
If there's one thing I learned from the GOP, it's that Purple Hearts, Bronze Stars and the like are handed out all the time for nothing. Can't see why anyone would care about any of those medals.
 
2013-02-14 06:31:13 AM

Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.


Overall they are better educated than their civilian counterparts

and that includes their spouses

military wives are better-educated, on average, than civilian wives.
 
2013-02-14 06:32:54 AM
A medal?  Sure, why not.  A medal higher than a Bronze Star with V for Valor?  Get the fark outta here.
 
2013-02-14 06:37:35 AM
Well in all fairness, you will likely never see both worn by the same person so we're all about semantics.
 
2013-02-14 06:43:31 AM

justoneznot: staplermofo: Two air forcers who got the Bronze Star for something other than throwing grenades at Nazi bunkers got cyber bullied.
Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

Wow that's pretty pathetic. A bunch of grown adults bickering about who got what award. Unfortunately this childish mentality is everywhere, and I've seen it at every place I've ever worked. "Why does Johnny get to park in one of the front parking spaces, that's not fair....how come he gets to go and we don't...why did Amy get an award and we didn't..." People need to just focus on what they're doing and stop worrying about everyone else.


Except in this case them getting the BSM put them in a better promotional position over people that may have actually seen combat.  Also, high level medals can make the difference when competing for special duties or education/commissioning programs.  Granted, they were at least IN Afghanistan so could say they were at least in the daily danger of being mortared or overrun depending where they were.  Whether that should be worthy of a BSM and not a JCM or AFCM is another matter.
 
2013-02-14 06:45:24 AM

Securitywyrm: platedlizard: It's not like playing video games, 17% of all drone pilots suffer from clinical depression related to their job and 30% are burned out.. http://www.npr.org/2011/12/19/143926857/report-high-levels-of-burnout - in-u-s-drone-pilots

As compared to say, EVERYONE ELSE IN THE ARMY?


From what I can tell it's pretty similar. The drone pilots watch their target day in, day out. They see him do his normal everyday stuff, like get up, work, play with his kids, etc. They see him do the 'badguy' stuff as well, but it's hard to hate a guy you spend six hours a day getting to know. Then they're ordered to kill him. They see strikes go bad, they see US troops get shot by the enemy. They see all that. It doesn't matter to the human brain that what they're seeing is 7,000 miles away, our brains have no way to filter that out. It's real, and it causes them stress, depression, and PTSD.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/30/us/drone-pilots-waiting-for-a-kill -s hot-7000-miles-away.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

But go on thinking it's just like playing video games, it only shows how ignorant and heartless you are.
 
2013-02-14 06:47:11 AM
Summoner101: 

Except in this case them getting the BSM put them in a better promotional position over people that may have actually seen combat.  Also, high level medals can make the difference when competing for special duties or education/commissioning programs.  Granted, they were at least IN Afghanistan so could say they were at least in the daily danger of being mortared or overrun depending where they were.  Whether that should be worthy of a BSM and not a JCM or AFCM is another matter.

Why does someone who was actually in Afghanistan automatically deserve a better promotion than someone who was able to carry out the mission while not in Afghanistan?
 
2013-02-14 06:48:45 AM

the ha ha guy: keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...


And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?


I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.
 
2013-02-14 06:51:12 AM

hasty ambush: BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.

Better chance of surviving the military than the streets of Chicago:

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan


Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed. As long as the troops are safe though, that's the important thing.
 
2013-02-14 06:51:57 AM

platedlizard: Summoner101: 

Except in this case them getting the BSM put them in a better promotional position over people that may have actually seen combat.  Also, high level medals can make the difference when competing for special duties or education/commissioning programs.  Granted, they were at least IN Afghanistan so could say they were at least in the daily danger of being mortared or overrun depending where they were.  Whether that should be worthy of a BSM and not a JCM or AFCM is another matter.

Why does someone who was actually in Afghanistan automatically deserve a better promotion than someone who was able to carry out the mission while not in Afghanistan?


Why should people who sacrifice significantly less than those that actually deploy be rewarded the same?
 
2013-02-14 06:54:07 AM
I had typed up a short paragraph trying to explain life working the RPA lines and how over an extended period of time it does cause legitimate symptoms of PTSd but then I remember this is Fark, ain't no one got time for that.
 
2013-02-14 06:57:53 AM

keithdcmoore: the ha ha guy: keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...


And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?

I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.


The argument isn't about if they do or don't deserve recognition. The argument is about the medal priority being above both the bronze star with valor and the purple heart. It's certainly a task worthy of recognition, but try to find anyone about to go outside the wire who wouldn't swap places with someone in an air conditioned office staring at a monitor with a joystick.
 
2013-02-14 07:00:50 AM

platedlizard: But go on thinking it's just like playing video games, it only shows how ignorant and heartless you are.


It is just like playing video games... if you took a really incredibly shiatty video game and forced a small group of people to play it in shifts for months on end with almost no plot advancement, PC development, or loot, and took the couple of minutes per week of play requiring action and tied success or failure to whether someone else gets to live or die. Thing is, if you fail, you get to respawn... but PFC Jones in the sand there doesn't, and even though he's just a blob on your screen, you still  know.

Just like video games. Yup.


/That being said, they farked up on the precedence.
 
2013-02-14 07:04:34 AM

keithdcmoore: the ha ha guy: keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do... In this case, kill people with a joystick and then go home and try to act normal with their family. Drone pilot stress is a kind of stress that hasn't made it into any shiatty indie films or documentaries yet...


And we ask infantrymen to watch as the rest of their squad dies only inches away, while killing people face to face, then go home and then go home and try to act normal with their family. So why should they get a lesser medal than those who only risk getting mild carpal tunnel syndrome?

I'm sorry- did I say those fine infantryman don't deserve respect? They do. Shower them with medals. It's also 2013 now and we have a sick bunch of dew drinking farks who have more kills than the Red Baron each week. Respect to the kids whose job is not mine.



Did I say those drone pilots don't deserve respect? They do, but certainly not a higher level of respect than those who put themselves in imminent danger every day with little to no official recognition for their actions.
 
2013-02-14 07:07:35 AM
Well they probably do get to kill more people than a ground troop will ever get to.
 
2013-02-14 07:10:46 AM
Next up:  Earning a Purple Heart for getting ganked in Alterac Valley.

/seriously, WTF
 
2013-02-14 07:11:18 AM
They also get flight pay like a real pilot does.  At least the army allows enlisted guys to control their UAV's but the AF  you have to have a college degree to fly those remote control plane.
 
2013-02-14 07:13:18 AM

platedlizard: Why does someone who was actually in Afghanistan automatically deserve a better promotion than someone who was able to carry out the mission while not in Afghanistan


I would say someone that actually risked their life deserves better rewards/recognitiobn that one that didn't.  And 9/10 they are going to have a better understanding of what it is like for peopel ont he ground.

I don't think that shoudl always translate to a "better promotion", but I see it being a factor.
 
2013-02-14 07:13:18 AM
Its the equivalent of everybody getting a trophy just for participating
 
2013-02-14 07:16:27 AM
I thought drone pilots already had an award system:
www.futbolyconsolas.es
 
2013-02-14 07:18:00 AM
Pfffft. I got GOLD and Silver stars for homework in Kindergarten.
 
2013-02-14 07:22:47 AM

quatchi: Did Ender get a medal?


No, he buggered out.
 
2013-02-14 07:26:14 AM
I suppose the willingness to kill for your nation deserves some recognition.
 
2013-02-14 07:32:08 AM
Look at all the basement dwellers passing judgement on who should get medals for contributions to a war. You impress me on a daiy basis Fark.
 
2013-02-14 07:32:34 AM

modesto: Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed.


So it is the US fault when taliban kill locals?!?

Unless I misunderstood you here, you are going off the derp end...
 
2013-02-14 07:33:14 AM
My fiancee was with the Rangers for 17 and a half years. He has a Bronze Star with V device, along with 4 Purple Hearts. Every soldier plays a role. Every soldier's part is important. But to make their medals higher than those that were actually on the front lines? You have got to be kidding me. If they can get that, then what stops them from earning the Medal of Honor? How would you even earn it? Those medals are high-ranking for a reason. Pressing a button, albeit still an important part of the military, is not "more valorous" (for lack of better term) than the ground-and-pound kicking-in-doors action.

Just my opinion on the matter.
 
2013-02-14 07:39:48 AM

keithdcmoore: We say that people get a medal for what they did... But really, they get the medal for what we asked them to do...


The US -and, I suspect, most militaries- actually have medals covering both situations: some for doing what you were asked, and some for going "above and beyond the call of duty."

If there is to be a medal for exceptional drone piloting, then yeah; it belongs in the cluster of medals for going beyond the call. But to put it above any such medal that involves being there -that involves actually taking risks- is a grave insult.
 
2013-02-14 07:39:58 AM

Fizpez: Teknowaffle: EngineerAU: If you're bored, check out Wikipedia's list of military awards and decorations. You'll be surprised by some of the things they hand out medals for.

Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.

See that's where he screwed up big time - should have kept the idea to himself for another 6 months then offered it back to the military as a "consultant".  Plan to save $millions as someone IN the military = pretty ribbon and 15 seconds of presidents time.   Plan to save $millions as someone NOT in the military = $100,000+ in consulting fees every year until the people you made look good retire or move on.

The ribbon should be among the most prestigious of the "support" medals but having zero chance of having your head blown off at any moment kind of puts it below any combat medal IMHO.




That is exactly what he does now.
 
2013-02-14 07:48:34 AM

Gdalescrboz: Look at all the basement dwellers passing judgement on who should get medals for contributions to a war. You impress me on a daiy basis Fark.



The issue is not whether they should get a medal, it's whether they should get a higher medal than is awarded to those who throw themselves on a grenade to save their fellow soldiers.

I don't think it takes an armchair general to figure out that laying on top of an active grenade will cause more injuries than merely using a joystick and watching a video feed. Unfortunately, the real generals apparently believe otherwise.
 
2013-02-14 07:55:03 AM
Pinned down facing what felt like certain death, called for air support; 7th aviation came and saved our ass'.  The 2 Apache pilots were dropping hot rounds on us, that's how close it was.  These pilots saved lives that day, while taking fire.

Later I had a chance to meet one of the pilots, shook his hand as he stated "just doing our job", neither of them would ever see a medal for this.

I understand the need for excellent drone operators, but medals get pinned on the chest that was in the fight.

Just my 2 cents.
 
2013-02-14 07:55:05 AM

liam76: modesto: Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed.

So it is the US fault when taliban kill locals?!?

Unless I misunderstood you here, you are going off the derp end...


There can be more than one cause of a thing, and there is plenty of blame to go around. Are the people who blow themselves up or launch other attacks on civillins in afghanistan to blame for those deaths? Of course they are.

However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome. A long and bloody insurgency was completely foreseeable. So yes, part of that is on us. How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.

And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions.
 
2013-02-14 07:59:47 AM
Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap.  Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal.  This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information.  There's a lot wrong with that thought process.  It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."
 
2013-02-14 08:02:11 AM
This isn't about combat veterans.

It's about having enough candy and sparklies for the droolers they will trick into drone-striking American Citizens on US soil with Hellfire missiles for failing to pay enough taxes on their marijuana, or collecting too many black rifles, or having too many members of their church.

Bribes for patsys being used to strike against "prohibited persons" and other political enemies on US soil.
 
2013-02-14 08:10:28 AM
I wonder if there is some device that gets added to the medal to denote how many civilians you blew up as part of acceptable collateral damage.

Smaller ones for kids.

Like keeping score.
 
2013-02-14 08:11:49 AM

Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap.  Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal.  This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information.  There's a lot wrong with that thought process.  It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."


Which is untrue.  While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities.  My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing.  Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.
 
2013-02-14 08:12:57 AM
i716.photobucket.com
 
2013-02-14 08:15:09 AM
REMF of the year award.


Awesome
 
2013-02-14 08:16:34 AM

Summoner101: Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap.  Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal.  This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information.  There's a lot wrong with that thought process.  It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

Which is untrue.  While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities.  My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing.  Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.


So it's assigned value by an internal arbitrary system.  Yeah, that doesn't sound like bull shiat intended to replace actual reward.  It's not like this isn't a well-studied HR trick.  From an outside perspective it looks like people are doing astounding things for their country and we're rewarding them with as close to nothing as they'll accept.
 
2013-02-14 08:17:59 AM

jafiwam: This isn't about combat veterans.

It's about having enough candy and sparklies for the droolers they will trick into drone-striking American Citizens on US soil with Hellfire missiles for failing to pay enough taxes on their marijuana, or collecting too many black rifles, or having too many members of their church.

Bribes for patsys being used to strike against "prohibited persons" and other political enemies on US soil.


Please remove your tinfoil hat.
 
2013-02-14 08:18:01 AM

Lsherm: namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.
keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.
Purple hearts require you to get injured.
but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)
yah, farkEM

Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related?  My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low.  He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane.  Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.


My uncle was working in a REMF motorpool in Vietnam.  He got "injured" while wrenching on a jeep.  His CO offered to get him a purple heart.
/he declined the offer
 
2013-02-14 08:21:57 AM

platedlizard: From what I can tell it's pretty similar.


Another issue that surfaced with PTSD in these guys that caught the Air Force by surprise was how they lived. Wake up next to wife, have breakfast with the family, take the kids to school, drive to base sit in a console, sling a Hellfire with a TV camera into a group of guys standing under a tree half a world away, get back in the car and home in time for a nice dinner with the wife and kids.

Meanwhile the guys driving Bones out of Guam get some depressurization time with their Brothers in Arms at the O-club after a mission where they did pretty much the same thing. I haven't heard much about the issue as of late but I do know a couple of Bone pilots at Dyess...next  I talk to one I'll ask about the issue.
 
2013-02-14 08:22:42 AM

modesto: However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome.


BS.

That is like saying we are responsible for any unrest in the future of Egypt since we pressured Murbarak to step down.  Or that we are responsible for civilian deaths or atrocities in Libya in the future because we helped take down quaddafi.

It is also like saying the world has no responsibility for sitting by when shiat was going down in Sudan and Darfur.


modesto: How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.


This argument is very similiar to ones that are used for US to support striong arm dictators.  I really don't think you have thought this al the way through.


modesto: And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions


So you are supporting strong arm dictators?

The fact is that they are responsible for blowing each other up.  It is a bit racist to think they aren't capable of self contol or self governance, and that once a group intervenes that they are responsible for every group afterwards.
 
2013-02-14 08:31:07 AM

Lsherm: namatad: Lsherm: I don't think it should be above a Bronze Star, but I can see where being a drone pilot would require more than enough discipline and talent to be crucial to a military operation.  Some medal is probably deserved.

But yeah, not as much as one that requires your ass to be available as a target.  Technically, though, they are handing out Bronze Stars to people who aren't in any real danger of being hit in the first place.

this crap has been going on since vietnam.
keep in mind that this new medal will rank above a bronze star, which is above a purple heart.
Purple hearts require you to get injured.
but this new award you get while sleeping at home at nights (or when off duty?)
yah, farkEM

Can they give you a Purple Heart for injury that isn't directly combat related?  My dad has one from Vietnam, but if his story is correct, he was flying Mohawk during a "photograph" flight and they were hit by ground fire when flying low.  He never got hit by a bullet or ordinance, but he was subsequently injured on the same flight when trying to land.

Maybe he's embellished the story a bit for my mother to keep her from worrying, but the way he tells it he got to spend two months recovering from a broken ankle he probably gave himself while landing the plane.  Says he got a week in Germany out of it (my mother confirms this - they were there together), but they sent him back.


They probably wrote it up as his injury was the result of enemy action or maybe the helicopter was damaged because of being fired upon, which resulted in a shiaty landing. Who knows allot of people get purple hearts for things that you'd be surprised about.  My grandfather had 3.  One from a bullet, one from shrapnel and then the last one was for a minor scratch when a Chinese shell exploded near by. My dad was riding on an APC that hit a land mine in Vietnam and got knock off of it and had allot of scratches on his arms and didn't get one.
 
2013-02-14 08:33:39 AM

modesto: hasty ambush: BarkingUnicorn: Popcorn Johnny: staplermofo: Every now and then there are reminders that the military recruits from high schools.

A higher % of people in the military have a college degree than found in the general population.

That's counting only survivors.

Better chance of surviving the military than the streets of Chicago:

Chicago Homicides Outnumber U.S. Troop Killings In Afghanistan

Unless you happen to be a civillian in an area where we either don't like someone or have taken responsibility for security and failed. As long as the troops are safe though, that's the important thing.


If you are a "troop" it is.
 
2013-02-14 08:37:15 AM
The only problem anyone seems to have with this is the ranking of the medal. I completely agree that the operators (I refuse to call them "pilots") deserve recognition. But to rank their award above a BSM (the "V" device is irrelevant to this argument, by the way) is an insult to the thousands of door-kickers from OIF and OEF who genuinely earned their medals.
Also, someone mentioned that these drone operators receive flight pay...not exactly. They do receive incentive pay, but it's tied to the enlisted crewmember rates, not pilot rates.
 
2013-02-14 08:39:26 AM
I think the military came up with it as kind of a "guilt" thing -

When Bush flew to Omaha on 9/11, he went straight into the bunker. We know that, it was in the news.

What was NOT mentioned was that he likely shook the hands of the four gamers sitting in the Lazy-Boys that flew the three planes and Pentagon missile that day.  A quick salute, called 'em "true Americans", and when he left the room - four pops, right into their brain-pans.

I bet there was blood, grey matter and Cheetos everywhere.
 
2013-02-14 08:44:10 AM

Dracolich: Summoner101: Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap.  Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal.  This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information.  There's a lot wrong with that thought process.  It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."

Which is untrue.  While in the military, medals, and titles when you go progress higher in rank, have a tangible impact when competing for promotion, special duties, and education opportunities.  My background is USAF, so medals, at least those that count for points, are directly tied in to testing.  Other decorations, such as humanitarian/volunteer, can still be competitive though will be better reflected in an EPR/OPR.

It is disingenuous to say that awarding someone a medal that might not deserve one doesn't have any tangible impact beyond prestige.

So it's assigned value by an internal arbitrary system.  Yeah, that doesn't sound like bull shiat intended to replace actual reward.  It's not like this isn't a well-studied HR trick.  From an outside perspective it looks like people are doing astounding things for their country and we're rewarding them with as close to nothing as they'll accept.


Which is why people that don't deserve medals shouldn't get them because it keeps the system from being as "arbitrary."  People that do the work get rewarded.  And it doesn't seem so much like BS when a single medal can make the difference between being promoted and not being promoted.  But hey, if you're willing to vote for people that will support better pay and benefits for military members, I won't stop you.
 
2013-02-14 08:46:54 AM
How did this not start a photoshop thread to help the military design the new medal?
 
2013-02-14 08:50:51 AM
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

whar is my medals?

now if i can just land this farker, i should get a purple heart! :D

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com
 
2013-02-14 08:58:44 AM

liam76: modesto: However. When we rolled in and deposed the government there, odious as it was, we became responsible fot the outcome.

BS.

That is like saying we are responsible for any unrest in the future of Egypt since we pressured Murbarak to step down.  Or that we are responsible for civilian deaths or atrocities in Libya in the future because we helped take down quaddafi.

It is also like saying the world has no responsibility for sitting by when shiat was going down in Sudan and Darfur.


modesto: How many bombings of civilian targets were there in Afghanistan prior to the US invasion? I don't know the answer to that question, but I bet it is a lot fewer than the last 10 years.

This argument is very similiar to ones that are used for US to support striong arm dictators.  I really don't think you have thought this al the way through.


modesto: And hey, if you don't like the example of America's longest war, remember Iraq? I know that's all ancient history now since we failed, the money stopped flowing, and so we cut and ran, but if you could ask the over 100,000 civillians killed in that debacle, I bet they wouldn't be as quick as you to relieve us of responsibility for the consequences of our actions

So you are supporting strong arm dictators?

The fact is that they are responsible for blowing each other up.  It is a bit racist to think they aren't capable of self contol or self governance, and that once a group intervenes that they are responsible for every group afterwards.


Again, this is not an either/or proposition. The people who perpetuate violence and the people who create the conditions for violence to thrive are both accountable. I know bushian neoconism allows for only black and white, 0 or 1 morality, but a little nuance is useful here. You really don't think the term "Coalition Provisional Authority" carried with it any responsibility to protect people?

There is actually a third option, aside from deciding on regime change across the world or supporting dictators, which is to mind our own farking business. We are not directly responsible for the outcome of post-Mubarak Egypt, but we are responsible for the outcomes of the $1.25 billion that we give the army and police annually (to turn around and buy our weaponry and equipment, by the way). The Egyptian people ask a valid question, it seems to me, when wondering why it is America's role to give Egypt money to buy the (american) tear gas that is used on the streets. The hell business is it of ours?

If we had shown, since WWII, that we are at all capable of affecting positive change in a place, then I would be in favor of the kind of humanitarian intervention that you seem to support. But we haven't , and we don't.

Oh and I know the American public just weeps daily for the people of Syria, Darfur (which is in Sudan, by the way), South Kordofan, and all the other places where people are getting killed but we have no strategic interest. Please.
 
2013-02-14 09:09:02 AM

Dracolich: Medals, titles, honor, and other forms of empty accolades work well because they're cheap.  Don't worry veterans, your medal is worth just as much as theirs. In the end, all of these things are just intended to be ways to confer social respect without others having to know anything personal.  This means that people are intended to judge you in a positive way based on almost no information.  There's a lot wrong with that thought process.  It's the same one that brought us "Sandwich Artist" and "Senior Correspondent."


Hey. Leave me and my ilk out of this.
 
2013-02-14 09:13:35 AM

Artisan Sandwich: Hey. Leave me and my ilk out of this.


At least as a sandwich, you don't have to worry about that whole creationism/ID vs. evolution debate.
 
2013-02-14 09:14:39 AM

modesto: Again, this is not an either/or proposition. The people who perpetuate violence and the people who create the conditions for violence to thrive are both accountable


Unless you licve in a cave and taker no part in international trade you have a hand in creatingt he conditions that make violence "thrive".

modesto: You really don't think the term "Coalition Provisional Authority" carried with it any responsibility to protect people?


If you are a cop are you responsible because a town who was hiding a nut decided to blow up peopel inthe town?

There is only so much you can do and when peopel see blowing themselvs/civilians up as an admirabel goal, there is nothing you can do.

modesto: There is actually a third option, aside from deciding on regime change across the world or supporting dictators, which is to mind our own farking business.


So sitting out on Sudan and Darfur was the right move to you?

We should have stayed out of Libya?

modesto: If we had shown, since WWII, that we are at all capable of affecting positive change in a place, then I would be in favor of the kind of humanitarian intervention that you seem to support. But we haven't , and we don't.


I think Iraq was a mistake.  Don't confuse me saying we aren't to blame for all civilian death there is a support for our being there.


modesto: Oh and I know the American public just weeps daily for the people of Syria, Darfur (which is in Sudan, by the way), South Kordofan, and all the other places where people are getting killed but we have no strategic interest.


I know you certainly don;t weep for them as you say we have no business being there.

As for strategic interest, you are very very wrong.  You just aren' asking who has strategic interests there.
 
2013-02-14 09:18:26 AM
Being a combat vet I can kind of see the point. If you're stationed stateside you don't qualify for the Bronze - even if you were running combat missions that saved lives. If they changed the rules and allowed the Bronze to people stateside, then there would be a lot of people staying stateside and using their writing skills to issue each other ribbons. (Historically, at the tail end of combat operations guys that stayed back in the states would try to find a reason to fly to the "combat" zone during the last couple days to get a ribbon, combat patch or brownie points for the VA - get there while it's safe, yet still be able to say they were in combat.)

Different units have different internals rules as well. When I was with the 82d they didn't give out many ribbons; they would award arcoms, (or nothing at all), while the non-airborne guys would get bronze for basically the same thing. When I went to another unit my second tour they tended to pass them out for a job well done - I wasn't used to that and almost felt guilty for accepting. (My arcom w/oakleaf from the 82d carried a lot of weight, but only to those that knew what it took to get them.)

This stuff might be automated now, it wasn't when I was in. People have to do the paperwork for ribbons. The closer you are to command, the closer you are to the people that write the recommendations. This makes for a lot of highly decorated clerks.

The rule of thumb for the minimum used to be:

Bronze - you're in a combat zone doing your job.

Bronze w/V - you're in a combat zone doing your job with bullets flying around in the distance. You might not have been shot at - but you could have been.

Silver - you're in a combat zone while the shiat is going down.

Silver w/V - the shiat is going down and you not only keep your cool while the bullets are whizzing by, but actually jump into the line of fire to get the job done.

Medal of Honor - do your job, plus the job of most of the guys around you, even if you'll probably die doing it.

This is just the rule of thumb for the minimum. Someone might get a Bronze for something that might have qualified for a Silver, depending on who is writing the recommendation. There's an award higher than the MoH - unfortunately, it's called the death certificate. It's the only award they pass out too many times.
 
2013-02-14 09:18:53 AM

I drunk what: [encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 204x179]

whar is my medals?

now if i can just land this farker, i should get a purple heart! :D

[encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com image 204x179]


I agree with you, that shiat was impossible.
 
2013-02-14 09:21:24 AM
Do they level up after achieving a medal?

Do they get a medal for killing American citizens with a drone?
 
2013-02-14 09:23:43 AM
Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.
 
2013-02-14 09:23:59 AM
liam76:
I know you certainly don;t weep for them as you say we have no business being there.

Actually, you don't know shiat about me, dog. I spend all day every day working with displaced victims of violence in Sudan, Syria, and elsewhere. My point is that our military interventions are at best ineffective in solving these problems, and more often harmful. If we spent a tenth of the defense budget on actual humanitarian assistance, we would have one hundred times the positive impact.

I am pretty sure you and I have been through this before and it is clear we will get nowhere. Adios.
 
2013-02-14 09:30:03 AM
Want to dismantle the military but don't want to do it publically and piss off the general public?  No problem, just enact lots of new laws and rules that will piss off the soldiers themselves.  Oh, and make massive cuts through sequestration (something that you really don't want to do...wink, wink).

The Democrats have become experts at subterfuge.  They are whooping Republican arse all over the place with it.
 
2013-02-14 09:35:15 AM
The US does have a reputation for handing out chest candy and it sounds like it's deserved. Different mentality I suppose. If you look at British/Aussie/NZ/Canadian honors and awards, it is very reserved. If you get recognized for something, you know it's a big deal, and means more.

/I'm sure there are come exceptions. not an expert on ALL nations eligibility lists
 
2013-02-14 09:35:49 AM

PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.


Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.
 
2013-02-14 09:41:02 AM

Artisan Sandwich: The US does have a reputation for handing out chest candy and it sounds like it's deserved. Different mentality I suppose. If you look at British/Aussie/NZ/Canadian honors and awards, it is very reserved.


Not sure how other nations handle promotions, etc, but the US military's EVAL/FITREP system has repeatedly gotten stupid/been recalibrated/gotten stupid again, so it is hard to tell a high performer from just an "ok" pogue at times.  However, medals are one way, as they tend to be a little more standard.  Only "tend to" mind you - different communities hand out some medals more frequently, for less than others.  But even so, with medals being a little more difficult to obtain than a straight set of 5.0s on your FITREP/EVAL, they (and their associated promotion points) become more important for advancement.

So, yes, the US does tend to hand out more medals and ribbons - but that is because they play a larger part in our troops' eligibility for promotion.
 
2013-02-14 09:42:21 AM
Since the lowest award that can have a Combat V is an Achievement Medal, it should be one tick below that.
 
2013-02-14 09:42:25 AM
farking Gamers they need an achievement for everything.
 
2013-02-14 09:43:53 AM

modesto: liam76:
I know you certainly don't weep for them as you say we have no business being there.

Actually, you don't know shiat about me, dog.


I know you said we should "mind out own farking business".  Most people don't weep about things they think their govt shouldn't do anything to help.


modesto: I spend all day every day working with displaced victims of violence in Sudan, Syria, and elsewhere


Seem to have a lot of time on Fark.  And once again, why don't you "mind your own farking business"?

modesto: My point is that our military interventions are at best ineffective in solving these problems, and more often harmful. If we spent a tenth of the defense budget on actual humanitarian assistance, we would have one hundred times the positive impact


Humanitarian assistance to aeras with warlords without boots on the ground is assitance to warlords.


modesto: I am pretty sure you and I have been through this before and it is clear we will get nowhere.


Because you will sidestep any questions you don't like, and cry when people point out the implications of things lik etelling a govt to "mind its own business".
 
2013-02-14 09:49:55 AM

Resident Muslim: *sniff*
The generation that got medals for participating on sports day has grown up.

/dusty


At least they got out of the house, into the sunshine, and participate in some exercise. What has your flabby, basement dwelling, Cheeto devouring ass ever done? Oh wait let me guess you have every participation ribbon, I'm sorry I meant achievement, ever on Call of Duty.
 
2013-02-14 09:53:13 AM

PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.



Those who go above and beyond the call of duty in an active combat zone get a medal. Those who sit in an air conditioned room stateside and watch a video feed get a higher ranking medal.

Between these two, who is going to get the promotion faster?

Should these drone pilots get the official recognition they deserve in order to advance their career? Absolutely. Should they get the equivalent of an Olympic silver medal while those who are crippled in combat while saving the lives of the rest of their squad get the equivalent of a souvenir ticket stub? Fark no.
 
2013-02-14 09:53:14 AM

Uisce Beatha: PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.

Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.


This is a tough judgement call. You need to promote and you have two guys; one has a Bronze w/V because he was hunkered down in a ditch one time and a bullet grazed his helmet, while the other guy sat back in a chair for six months, but was able to save hundreds of lives and was a solid producer. Without the points from the ribbons how do you justify promoting the armchair warrior? They might have learned a few lessons from the cold war on this one. There are many old guys out there that were true heroes, but will die unrecognized former E-4's.
 
2013-02-14 10:11:05 AM
I understand the outrage, but every mission a drone flies is one that doesn't put a pilot at risk.
 
2013-02-14 10:24:29 AM

liam76: So sitting out on Sudan and Darfur was the right move to you?

We should have stayed out of Libya?



Yes. It is not the responsibility of the US to intervene in another nation's internal disputes. That's what international bodies like the UN, the Arab League, and the African Union were created for.
 
2013-02-14 10:30:30 AM
I'd be OK with this if it ranked along with the other personal, non-combat, awards like the Achievement or Commendation medals.  Next thing you know they'll be getting the CAR for having their drone shot at.


/Navy vet
 
2013-02-14 10:39:17 AM

Teknowaffle: EngineerAU: Teknowaffle: Right before he retired from the Navy, my dad got a medal for figuring out a way to save the Navy millions of dollars. It also had a hand written note from Bill Clinton along with it.

Please tell me that the ribbon was green with dollar bill signs on it.

No, it was a meritorious service one I think. Though the note did have hints of chubby Jewess.


It was written on blue stationary and there was an obvious spunk blast on one of the corners?
 
2013-02-14 10:39:44 AM

give me doughnuts: Yes. It is not the responsibility of the US to intervene in another nation's internal disputes. That's what international bodies like the UN, the Arab League, and the African Union were created for


They sure did a bang up job in Sudan and Darfur...
 
2013-02-14 11:06:26 AM

Ficoce: Uisce Beatha: PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.

Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.

This is a tough judgement call. You need to promote and you have two guys; one has a Bronze w/V because he was hunkered down in a ditch one time and a bullet grazed his helmet, while the other guy sat back in a chair for six months, but was able to save hundreds of lives and was a solid producer. Without the points from the ribbons how do you justify promoting the armchair warrior? They might have learned a few lessons from the cold war on this one. There are many old guys out there that were true heroes, but will die unrecognized former E-4's.


That's why I perfer Air Force, we don't give promotions due to medals.  They promote people that they feel best to handle the job, atleast that's what we are supposed to do.  Just because you were in a gunfight doesn't always mean you are the best man for the job.
 
2013-02-14 11:43:15 AM
The military has a bunch of medals that are trumped up bullshiat? The devil, you say!
 
2013-02-14 11:45:27 AM
Why not the Air Medal, which ranks below the Bronze Star, and goes to those who distinguish themselves by meritorious achievement while participating in aerial flight?*

*As opposed to some other kind of flight.
 
2013-02-14 11:47:49 AM

Bacontastesgood: Not true.  Recruiters like to mislead people about this by comparing officers with bachelors to the general population, and enlisted with high school or better.  If you combine them, the % of people in uniform with a college diploma is less than in the civilian pop.


Yes it is true and the study proving it has been posted on Fark in the past. A higher percentage of active duty military personnel have a college degree than the civilian population.
 
2013-02-14 11:50:04 AM

liam76: give me doughnuts: Yes. It is not the responsibility of the US to intervene in another nation's internal disputes. That's what international bodies like the UN, the Arab League, and the African Union were created for

They sure did a bang up job in Sudan and Darfur...


Your argument would probably seem more credible if you would stop referring to one place as if it were two places.
 
2013-02-14 11:59:21 AM
static01.mediaite.com

Coffee... Black
 
2013-02-14 12:06:36 PM

modesto: liam76: give me doughnuts: Yes. It is not the responsibility of the US to intervene in another nation's internal disputes. That's what international bodies like the UN, the Arab League, and the African Union were created for

They sure did a bang up job in Sudan and Darfur...

Your argument would probably seem more credible if you would stop referring to one place as if it were two places.


That was rwanda in my head...

Either way it shouldn't matter to you as they are places as "we have no business there".
 
2013-02-14 12:10:24 PM
Hey, a pilot 10,000 miles away from combat can still save the lives of soldiers on the front line.  Or even make it so they don't have to go to the front line.  More soldiers saved is worth something, no?
 
2013-02-14 12:18:21 PM

OneMHz: Hey, a pilot 10,000 miles away from combat can still save the lives of soldiers on the front line.  Or even make it so they don't have to go to the front line.  More soldiers saved is worth something, no?



Something? Yes. But more than the actions of the soldier who threw himself on top of a grenade to save his squad?
 
2013-02-14 12:25:01 PM
I would never argue such.  I'm having a very incomplete thought kind of
 
2013-02-14 12:28:29 PM

liam76: modesto: liam76: give me doughnuts: Yes. It is not the responsibility of the US to intervene in another nation's internal disputes. That's what international bodies like the UN, the Arab League, and the African Union were created for

They sure did a bang up job in Sudan and Darfur...

Your argument would probably seem more credible if you would stop referring to one place as if it were two places.

That was rwanda in my head...

Either way it shouldn't matter to you as they are places as "we have no business there".


So you feel that we should wipe out the government in Khartoum? Because that is the only thing that will stop conflict there. I hope that while we are doing that, we have enough troops for the wars we'll need to fight in Syria, Eritrea, North Korea, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Burma, Iran, Israel, CAR, Somalia, Turkey, DR Congo and Colombia, all of which either kill their own people directly or are unable or unwilling to protect them from non-state actors. Hey why not- the contractors would love it, and how else do we measure the greatness of America if not by brown people bombed per year?
 
2013-02-14 12:29:44 PM
What happens when our guys start remotely operating ground drones?
 
2013-02-14 12:32:02 PM

the ha ha guy: Something? Yes. But more than the actions of the soldier who threw himself on top of a grenade to save his squad?


Soldiers who do that get more than a Bronze Star. I agree though, it shouldn't be ranked higher than any combat award, including the Purple Heart.
 
2013-02-14 12:51:05 PM

TNel: Ficoce: Uisce Beatha: PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.

Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.

This is a tough judgement call. You need to promote and you have two guys; one has a Bronze w/V because he was hunkered down in a ditch one time and a bullet grazed his helmet, while the other guy sat back in a chair for six months, but was able to save hundreds of lives and was a solid producer. Without the points from the ribbons how do you justify promoting the armchair warrior? They might have learned a few lessons from the cold war on this one. There are many old guys out there that were true heroes, but will die unrecognized former E-4's.

That's why I perfer Air Force, we don't give promotions due to medals.  They promote people that they feel best to handle the job, atleast that's what we are supposed to do.  Just because you were in a gunfight doesn't always mean you are the best man for the job.


Easy to say when, what, only 10% of your force actually flies?

/Snark, not (totally) serious
//Navy
///Deploys to warzones as much now as a Gov Civvie as I did as a squid
 
2013-02-14 12:55:57 PM

Popcorn Johnny: the ha ha guy: Something? Yes. But more than the actions of the soldier who threw himself on top of a grenade to save his squad?

Soldiers who do that get more than a Bronze Star. I agree though, it shouldn't be ranked higher than any combat award, including the Purple Heart.



The Drone Pilot medal, according to TFA, ranks higher than the Bronze Star.

Kyle Carpenter, who threw himself on a grenade to save his squad, has as of yet received nothing higher than a Purple Heart.
 
2013-02-14 12:57:50 PM

modesto: So you feel that we should wipe out the government in Khartoum? Because that is the only thing that will stop conflict there.


I seem to remember some guy earlier biatching about "black or white" thinking?

I wonder who that was, cause it couldn't be the guy saying the only way to stop states abusing their own is to "wipe out" certain govt's.
 
2013-02-14 01:07:21 PM

the ha ha guy: Kyle Carpenter, who threw himself on a grenade to save his squad, has as of yet received nothing higher than a Purple Heart.


There's a lot of debate about what actually happened in his case. Also, they're not saying he threw himself on a grenade, but that he put himself between the grenade and a fellow soldier. He hasn't been awarded or denied any medals as of yet and it appears that the investigation is ongoing.

When I was in the military, I read a book that listed all of the MoH winners, by far the most common way of being awarded one was to throw yourself on a grenade. I only remember hearing of one guy surviving the blast. He was quick thinking enough to cover the grenade with his helmet and then his body.
 
2013-02-14 01:18:21 PM

Popcorn Johnny: the ha ha guy:  I only remember hearing of one guy surviving the blast. He was quick thinking enough to cover the grenade with his helmet and then his body.


And sadly, that tactic doesn't always work...
 
2013-02-14 01:32:36 PM

OneMHz: Hey, a pilot 10,000 miles away from combat can still save the lives of soldiers on the front line.  Or even make it so they don't have to go to the front line.  More soldiers saved is worth something, no?


Hey! Just like a general. Bring me my bourbon and cigar.
 
2013-02-14 02:04:02 PM
A) Our troops do not need to be glorified.

B) ...Goddamnit. This, this is why I do not trust the DOD with drones. They are a shiny new toy, and for all the public knows they could be glitching every ten minutes, but as long as the DOD has Shiny New Toy Syndrome we'll keep relying on it.
 
2013-02-14 02:09:04 PM

PsiChick: A) Our troops do not need to be glorified.

B) ...Goddamnit. This, this is why I do not trust the DOD with drones. They are a shiny new toy, and for all the public knows they could be glitching every ten minutes, but as long as the DOD has Shiny New Toy Syndrome we'll keep relying on it.


And they always will, because of the huge defense industry need to maintain and justify it's existence. Be afraid and buy our stuff. Eisenhower called it 50 years ago.
 
2013-02-14 02:10:10 PM

TNel: Ficoce: Uisce Beatha: PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.

Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.

This is a tough judgement call. You need to promote and you have two guys; one has a Bronze w/V because he was hunkered down in a ditch one time and a bullet grazed his helmet, while the other guy sat back in a chair for six months, but was able to save hundreds of lives and was a solid producer. Without the points from the ribbons how do you justify promoting the armchair warrior? They might have learned a few lessons from the cold war on this one. There are many old guys out there that were true heroes, but will die unrecognized former E-4's.

That's why I perfer Air Force, we don't give promotions due to medals.  They promote people that they feel best to handle the job, atleast that's what we are supposed to do.  Just because you were in a gunfight doesn't always mean you are the best man for the job.


No they don't. They promote people based on how well they test. EPR's are a joke (Everyone is a 5, unless they are a complete dirtbag) and medals do count toward promotions.
 
2013-02-14 02:10:30 PM

modesto:  it's


its.

Sorry everybody. Sorry.
 
2013-02-14 02:27:26 PM

Uisce Beatha: TNel: Ficoce: Uisce Beatha: PanicMan: Medals get promotions.  If you're doing a job that doesn't give out medals, you don't advance your career.  If your career doesn't advance, you get pushed out.

So give em damn medals.

Give 'em medals, sure.  But don't make their precedence higher than the medals given to the folks who are actually in harm's way.

This is a tough judgement call. You need to promote and you have two guys; one has a Bronze w/V because he was hunkered down in a ditch one time and a bullet grazed his helmet, while the other guy sat back in a chair for six months, but was able to save hundreds of lives and was a solid producer. Without the points from the ribbons how do you justify promoting the armchair warrior? They might have learned a few lessons from the cold war on this one. There are many old guys out there that were true heroes, but will die unrecognized former E-4's.

That's why I perfer Air Force, we don't give promotions due to medals.  They promote people that they feel best to handle the job, atleast that's what we are supposed to do.  Just because you were in a gunfight doesn't always mean you are the best man for the job.

Easy to say when, what, only 10% of your force actually flies?

/Snark, not (totally) serious
//Navy
///Deploys to warzones as much now as a Gov Civvie as I did as a squid


////it's actually more like 2%
 
2013-02-14 02:32:01 PM

feickus: No they don't. They promote people based on how well they test. EPR's are a joke (Everyone is a 5, unless they are a complete dirtbag) and medals do count toward promotions.


Eligible promotees also get points for time in grade and time in service.  Medal points often can even the playing field between someone testing for their first time and someone who is on their fifth or sixth time.
 
2013-02-14 02:44:51 PM

Summoner101: feickus: No they don't. They promote people based on how well they test. EPR's are a joke (Everyone is a 5, unless they are a complete dirtbag) and medals do count toward promotions.

Eligible promotees also get points for time in grade and time in service.  Medal points often can even the playing field between someone testing for their first time and someone who is on their fifth or sixth time.


You're right I was aiming more at the medals don't count for anything and  they only promote people if they feel can do the job.  .
 
2013-02-14 02:48:09 PM

PsiChick: B) ...Goddamnit. This, this is why I do not trust the DOD with drones.


You don't trust drones because they pilots operators are getting medals?

There are a lot of concerns with drones, especially the manner in which the White house is using them, but this complaint with this article is the dumbest thing I have read on Fark all day.  Way to go!
 
2013-02-14 02:52:07 PM

feickus: Summoner101: feickus: No they don't. They promote people based on how well they test. EPR's are a joke (Everyone is a 5, unless they are a complete dirtbag) and medals do count toward promotions.

Eligible promotees also get points for time in grade and time in service.  Medal points often can even the playing field between someone testing for their first time and someone who is on their fifth or sixth time.

You're right I was aiming more at the medals don't count for anything and  they only promote people if they feel can do the job.  .


I wasn't trying to point out you were wrong, I was just fleshing out the point on how medals can often make a eligible promotee more competitive.
 
2013-02-14 03:17:01 PM
"In there rear with the gear". That was the expression in Vietnam.

Was stationed at Sang Bang Dang Gong with the Green Berets, Special Unit Battalions, Commando Airborne Tactics, Specialist Tactics Unit Battalion.

Yeah, it was real hush hush.

Where's my bronze star?
 
2013-02-14 11:13:28 PM

Slaves2Darkness: Resident Muslim: *sniff*
The generation that got medals for participating on sports day has grown up.

/dusty

At least they got out of the house, into the sunshine, and participate in some exercise. What has your flabby, basement dwelling, Cheeto devouring ass ever done? Oh wait let me guess you have every participation ribbon, I'm sorry I meant achievement, ever on Call of Duty.


For your information, I'm NOT a morlock basement dweller, and the attic has large windows, so I get a LOT of sunshine. I like to think that I'm akin to the dwellers of Cloud City. Nor am I flabby! Flabbiness is for people who cannot embrace and accept their body and then yo-yo diet, thereby stretching their skin. I embrace my body every day, and it is filled out nicely with no flabbiness!
It is NOT my ass that munches on Cheetos, it would be the other side, and truth be told, a true gamer would NOT go for Cheetos, thats for the junkies. you go for something non-oily, like Bugles (which you can turn into scary fingernails!!). And if you think the achievements in Call of Duty are easy without auto-targeting I'd like to see you play.
No, screw that, I'd like your handle so I can play against you and show you what dedicated people can do. But I digress, you probably have no skillz whatsoever, so feel free to mock me hiding behind the safety of your monitor instead of a battlefield like NukeTown.

Anyways, I have a game starting in 26 seconds so I have to go back to my AlienWare command center , but I hope you have learned your lesson.
 
2013-02-15 01:35:27 AM

Popcorn Johnny: Bacontastesgood: Not true.  Recruiters like to mislead people about this by comparing officers with bachelors to the general population, and enlisted with high school or better.  If you combine them, the % of people in uniform with a college diploma is less than in the civilian pop.

Yes it is true and the study proving it has been posted on Fark in the past. A higher percentage of active duty military personnel have a college degree than the civilian population.


Then Im sure you can come up with said study.  Unless you include minors which makes the comparison absurd, it aint so.
 
2013-02-15 07:19:50 AM
I'll put that right up there with the halo/scuba/tanker badge I made,
 and wore for Powell's retirement ceremony.

Bullshiat award is bullshiat.
 
2013-02-15 12:39:27 PM
img.photobucket.com
 
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