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(CBS Sports)   LeBron James is basically going Keyser Soze on the NBA. More so   (cbssports.com) divider line 74
    More: Interesting, LeBron James, NBA, Miami Heat, LaMarcus Aldridge, Trail Blazers, Moses Malone, Damian Lillard, Wesley Matthews  
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2406 clicks; posted to Sports » on 13 Feb 2013 at 10:58 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-13 09:35:25 AM  
Reference?
 
2013-02-13 11:02:18 AM  
He was really Kevin Spacey this whole time?
 
2013-02-13 11:03:26 AM  
Except in this case Chazz Palminteri (sp?) really is smarter than him.
 
2013-02-13 11:03:29 AM  
This is getting rigoddamndiculous.

For your reading please, a Lebron James thread from 2003.
 
2013-02-13 11:08:21 AM  
By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.
 
2013-02-13 11:11:36 AM  
Well, playing defense in this league hasn't really been a priority for the last 10 years or so.
 
2013-02-13 11:22:08 AM  
Meh. I want to see LeBron go up against Steve Wojciechowski and we'll see if he can score so easily. The way Wojo would needlessly pick up his man before half-court and slap the floor would surely intimidate Le Chosen One.
 
2013-02-13 11:22:10 AM  
I still don't get it and I saw the movie.
 
2013-02-13 11:22:56 AM  
Well, if he stabs Stephen Baldwin in the spine, I think the city of Cleveland can find it in their hearts to forgive him.
 
2013-02-13 11:25:25 AM  

Serious Black: By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.


That's a tough one to sell.  Jordan is believed to be much better than his numbers and his actual achievements right now.  I don't know if it's possible to pass him in most people's minds in the next 25 years or more.  You need a full generation to grow up and reach middle age without watching him live.

Don't mistake me - Jordan is the best player to touch the ball, IMO.  Few come close.  But the general public impressions puts him on a pedestal that is beyond the statistics and the rings.  Beyond what he actually accomplished.  I don't know that a mortal (even one as exceptional of LeBron) can reach that high in the next 10 or 15 years.  He'd have to exceed all of Jordan's numbers - points, rings, ppg, playoff appearances, poster moments, adjusted endorsement numbers, clothing and shoe lines (and sales in each), etc. to be moved in most people's mind, and that's only the start.  He's needs a defining attitude, and a stronger personality on camera.  He's getting there, but he's behind Jordan in many areas at the similar stage of his career.
 
2013-02-13 11:30:05 AM  

Dr Dreidel: Well, if he stabs Stephen Baldwin in the spine, I think the city of Cleveland can find it in their hearts to forgive him.


There are rumors that Cleveland might be one of the teams LeBron will entertain when he becomes a free agent again in 2014. It'll be fascinating to see the reaction out of Cleveland if this does start gaining some traction.
 
2013-02-13 11:38:55 AM  

Killer Cars: Meh. I want to see LeBron go up against Steve Wojciechowski and we'll see if he can score so easily. The way Wojo would needlessly pick up his man before half-court and slap the floor would surely intimidate Le Chosen One.


Wow, I mean you really went out of your way to make a Duke Sucks joke on this one.  The only connection is that Lebron played for Coach K on the Olympic Squad.
 
2013-02-13 11:40:12 AM  
He sucks though because he didn't stay in Cleveland and he hurt Cleveland's feelings. He made Dan Gilbert cry, so he is awful at basketball and we should hate him, QED, per se, and therefore and so forth.
 
2013-02-13 11:52:37 AM  

Serious Black: By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.


The best he can hope for is the best of his time.  Just like there were people who couldn't accept Jordan as better than Oscar Robertson, Jerry West or Pete Maravich in an era where defense is outlawed. Or accepting Hank Aaron as better than Babe Ruth despite night games and relief pitchers and traveling coast to coast
 
2013-02-13 11:53:52 AM  

moistD: Wow, I mean you really went out of your way to make a Duke Sucks joke on this one.


It was more a preemptive strike against the eventual "NBA sucks but NCAA basketball is awesome" crowd than a Duke Sucks jab. Wojo just happened to perfectly embody the "essence" of the student-athlete, or at least what some people perceive it as. An undersized white kid with athleticism that is only slightly better than your average hobo, but he "hustled" and "gritted" his way against often even inferior competition though a bevy of over-the-top mannerisms and fake intensity which "purists" bit on hook, line and sinker.

Oddly enough, I find Kevin Garnett oddly similar. His on-court persona and overall machinations are completely manufactured for a variety of reasons, and for him, he comes off even more pathetic than Wojo, considering he's much bigger and is still a tremendous athlete. As a Celtics fan I like him for his production, but even I can admit the "person" you see on the court is basically a hologram.
 
2013-02-13 11:59:13 AM  
I can't stand LeBron and I watched MJ play in person.  LeBron is better by far.  We've just become accustomed to MJ being the best ever and thinking no one would ever hit that level again.  And I'm not so sure the six rings is the thing sets him apart.  If Kobe gets a sixth, he's still not gonna be on that level.

Problem with the Heat is they have three near max level contracts.  I think the Bulls of Jordan's time (with a very different league and salary structure) we're better able to field a team because they only had two big contracts and money for more mid level guys.  LeBron on a team with a semi competent PG, center, and a three point shooter would be a lot better than sharing the court with Wade.  As great as they are together.  I'm thinking he goes to whatever team has the most cap room, and he builds his own team with guys that will be a better team, as opposed to just his friends.
 
2013-02-13 11:59:24 AM  

jayhawk88: Dr Dreidel: Well, if he stabs Stephen Baldwin in the spine, I think the city of Cleveland can find it in their hearts to forgive him.

There are rumors that Cleveland might be one of the teams LeBron will entertain when he becomes a free agent again in 2014. It'll be fascinating to see the reaction out of Cleveland if this does start gaining some traction.


LeBron James will play in Cleveland again when Cleveland freezes over.
 
2013-02-13 12:01:41 PM  

Serious Black: By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.


Jordan will always be "greater" in the media-definition sense of the word, because of the psychotic need to win he had. LeBron got over "the hump" last year and did what was necessary to win the championship, but he's never going to have that same level of competitiveness. LeBron getting another 5 titles, while still being the unquestioned best player on the team for all of them, seems unlikely.

But from a pure basketball skills standpoint, yeah, I think LeBron is better.
 
2013-02-13 12:08:33 PM  

Serious Black: By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.


nope

I am a Bulls fan, always have been, so I am biased. Jordan was not my favorite player on that team, Pip was, but I knew that watching him was a once in a lifetime thing. He changed the game, not just Bulls games but basketball in general. Before we even talk about stats, lets talk about other impacts. He is the reason it went global, not Magic or Bird before him. He changed how the sport is marketed. He became a brand within a brand.Small detail, but he changed the way people dress on the court. He also had a passion to not just beat the other team, but end them - only Kobe is close to that in the current generation as far as stars with elite talent. Winning mattered to Jordan, it was personal - with LBJ for a long time it looked like he wanted to win it all more so people would stop talking about him not winning than a true inner desire to be great.

Both can take over a game, but Jordan did this a lot better for a lot longer. Both played great D, I'll give James the edge here because he can can cover more positions - Jordan also played on a team with better team D (Pip and Rodman, seriously). James will have better assist numbers, but like Kobe, Jordan wanted it all on him and was good enough to do it - they passed when the situation called for it (Pax and Kerr come to mind for big shots Jordan assisted) but they knew that it was on them. Again, this is a killer instinct James does not have.

I will give LeBron credit, he has proven to be the best of this generation - he takes Magic Johnson's game to the next level and if he sustains it he will be considered an all time great - but better than Jordan.

nope
 
2013-02-13 12:14:17 PM  

Serious Black: By the end of his career, LeBron will be universally regarded as a better basketball player than Jordan.


Not a bad take, of course they are different types of players. If I break it down to choosing one of them to be on my team, I would pick LeBron every time. He's bigger, faster, stronger and a better passer, rebounder and shot blocker. Jordan would have an edge mentally but not by enough to make a significant difference. If LeBron had more of a Kobe/MJ attitude about winning every game he would certainly benefit, but he rarely has to show that kind of attitude because of the greatness of those on his team.
 
2013-02-13 12:14:53 PM  

p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.


He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.

Jordan was also able to be stopped, Joe Dumars did it regularly, I've never seen LeBron get shut down like that.

And that 25 straight or whatever against the Pistons was something MJ never could've done, even though he hit plenty of big shots.  But the Pistons were guarding LeBron with a willowy Prince and refused to double or foul him, cause Flip Saunders is a dipshiat.

To be fair though, MJ had to play in a much more physical league.  I think LeBron could handle the physical beating, but he's not mentally tough enough to handle guys like Rick Mahorn and Laimbeer taunting him and kicking his ass.
 
2013-02-13 12:21:24 PM  

Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.

He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.


He had longer shorts than the average player, not Fab 5 length, but longer than Stockton
 
2013-02-13 12:22:36 PM  

p the boiler: Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.

He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.

He had longer shorts than the average player, not Fab 5 length, but longer than Stockton


It didn't take much to have shorts longer than Stockton. He basically wore boxer briefs.
 
2013-02-13 12:24:39 PM  

deanis: It didn't take much to have shorts longer than Stockton. He basically wore boxer briefs.


Can you blame him? Dude was born in a pair of thick leggings, he was probably overheated by minute 4 of the 1st quarter.
 
2013-02-13 12:25:55 PM  

p the boiler: Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.

He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.

He had longer shorts than the average player, not Fab 5 length, but longer than Stockton


He still didn't change how people dressed on the court though.  You probably have an argument for off the court.  He was all about the style and dressing like a business man.  Rubbed off on a lot of the league.  Other than those hideous sweaters he would wear of course.

And him revolutionizing endorsements is kinda unfair.  Once Armstrong walked on the moon, who cares who did it second?
 
2013-02-13 12:31:47 PM  

Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.

He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.

He had longer shorts than the average player, not Fab 5 length, but longer than Stockton

He still didn't change how people dressed on the court though.  You probably have an argument for off the court.  He was all about the style and dressing like a business man.  Rubbed off on a lot of the league.  Other than those hideous sweaters he would wear of course.

And him revolutionizing endorsements is kinda unfair.  Once Armstrong walked on the moon, who cares who did it second?


Didn't the NBA come up with a dress code?
 
2013-02-13 12:36:11 PM  

Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: Champion of the Sun: p the boiler: he changed the way people dress on the court.

He ripped that style from the fab five, he was in short shorts like everyone else before that.

He had longer shorts than the average player, not Fab 5 length, but longer than Stockton

He still didn't change how people dressed on the court though.  You probably have an argument for off the court.  He was all about the style and dressing like a business man.  Rubbed off on a lot of the league.  Other than those hideous sweaters he would wear of course.

And him revolutionizing endorsements is kinda unfair.  Once Armstrong walked on the moon, who cares who did it second?


actually just read an article giving credit to the Flyin' Illini for starting the trend and the UofM guys admit they got it from them... anyway...

The sweaters, Jordan stole that look from Mr Pudding Pops - it was the 80's, even Oprah was doing it.

To the Armstrong comment - I can tell you who the last man was to walk on the moon - hint, also a Boilermaker.
 
2013-02-13 12:38:50 PM  

deanis: Didn't the NBA come up with a dress code?


Like 15 years later.  From '92 or so most players emulated Jordan.  It was the supposed 'thug culture' brought about by Iverson that led to the dress code.  And that was only one element of the league that dressed that way. I kinda supported that though, a lot of players were wearing throw back jerseys from other teams to games.  Kinda stupid.  But it was mostly Stern trying to keep the league as white friendly as possible.
 
2013-02-13 12:44:14 PM  

p the boiler: actually just read an article giving credit to the Flyin' Illini for starting the trend and the UofM guys admit they got it from them... anyway...


The first person to do something isn't necessarily the person who starts the trend.

The sick thing about those sweaters is that they cost ~$500 at the time.  Horrible, even for the time.
 
2013-02-13 12:48:05 PM  

Champion of the Sun: deanis: Didn't the NBA come up with a dress code?

Like 15 years later.  From '92 or so most players emulated Jordan.  It was the supposed 'thug culture' brought about by Iverson that led to the dress code.  And that was only one element of the league that dressed that way. I kinda supported that though, a lot of players were wearing throw back jerseys from other teams to games.  Kinda stupid.  But it was mostly Stern trying to keep the league as white friendly as possible.


I stand corrected. As much as people dislike Stern, I think he did a fair amount of good for the NBA.
 
2013-02-13 12:53:53 PM  
I've never gotten the "LeBron wouldn't be as good in the 80s because of the physicality" argument. Ummm... have you seen LeBron? You realize that he'd get to hit people too, right? And that he's much faster than everyone, right?

And LBJ being allowed to hand check? Not fair.
 
2013-02-13 12:59:34 PM  

Champion of the Sun: To be fair though, MJ had to play in a much more physical league.  I think LeBron could handle the physical beating, but he's not mentally tough enough to handle guys like Rick Mahorn and Laimbeer taunting him and kicking his ass.


But that was before MJ became MJ, when Isiah's, when the Skip Baylesses of the 1980's said MJ didn't have the drive to be champion. They said MJ cared more about Dunks and points than winning games. He'll never be as good as Bird or Magic.

The difference between Kobe/MJ and LeBron isn't their competitive nature, LeBron is just as competitive as they are, LeBron just isn't an asshole about it.

We have the 25 points in a row against the Pistons. Triple-Double Game 5 against OKC, 45 points in Game 6 against Boston (Following up 31-12 in game 7), 40 Points 18 rebounds game 4 against the Pacers. A game 4 triple double against the Bulls in 2010. In 2009 a triple double against the Magic.
 
2013-02-13 01:02:11 PM  

gtfan92: I've never gotten the "LeBron wouldn't be as good in the 80s because of the physicality" argument. Ummm... have you seen LeBron? You realize that he'd get to hit people too, right? And that he's much faster than everyone, right?

And LBJ being allowed to hand check? Not fair.


Back then most teams carried a big guy or two who's sole job was to foul anyone that would cut to the basket.  And hard too.  A huge part of LeBron's game is being able to cut to the basket at will, because defenders can't touch him without earning a flagrant.  He's strong enough that he can get through any arm slaps.  He's not strong enough to stand up to clotheslines.   A typical foul back then is a flagrant 2 nowadays.  No one can handle getting tossed to the floor like that game after game.
 
2013-02-13 01:06:02 PM  

Champion of the Sun: gtfan92: I've never gotten the "LeBron wouldn't be as good in the 80s because of the physicality" argument. Ummm... have you seen LeBron? You realize that he'd get to hit people too, right? And that he's much faster than everyone, right?

And LBJ being allowed to hand check? Not fair.

Back then most teams carried a big guy or two who's sole job was to foul anyone that would cut to the basket. And hard too. A huge part of LeBron's game is being able to cut to the basket at will, because defenders can't touch him without earning a flagrant. He's strong enough that he can get through any arm slaps. He's not strong enough to stand up to clotheslines. A typical foul back then is a flagrant 2 nowadays. No one can handle getting tossed to the floor like that game after game.


A) The bolded statement is bullshiat and I'm tired of hearing that argument
B) Where was Jordan when all of this was going on? I'm pretty sure he survived...
 
2013-02-13 01:09:53 PM  

Komplex: But that was before MJ became MJ


MJ became MJ when the bad boy Pistons went downhill due to age and infighting.  And I don't think anyone questioned his drive, he already won an NCAA championship and was flogging his BS cut from high school team back then.  Getting Collins fired as coach and having Pippen mature a few years is also when MJ became MJ.  He led the league in scoring and notched an MVP pretty early in his career.

And I don't think the Pistons ever really got in his head, they shut him down somewhat, but it was pure physicality and schemes as opposed to a mental thing.  In fact, I think it worked against the Pistons because it drove him to work even harder.  I think a little taunting to LeBron about his father would make him crumble.  The only real trash talker left is KG, but I think outside of Melo everyone knows that he's just manufactured toughness and a tard.
 
2013-02-13 01:12:27 PM  
Why are people acting like players got clothes-lined every game in the NBA in the 80s and 90s? Yes, the "no easy baskets" rule seemed to be taken with more heart, but stop exaggerating.

You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.
 
2013-02-13 01:13:42 PM  

gtfan92: A) The bolded statement is bullshiat and I'm tired of hearing that argument
B) Where was Jordan when all of this was going on? I'm pretty sure he survived...


Watch footage from any late eighties playoff series involving any team.  You'll see a lot of head shots and clotheslines which were called as regular PFs.  And the flagrant wasn't even a rule until the nineties, to protect who?  You guessed it, MJ.

Jordan was complaining about being the league's money maker and not getting protection, that's why they instituted it.
 
2013-02-13 01:15:35 PM  

gtfan92: You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.


Not that hard if you're also 260 and all you have to do is swipe his arms or undercut him, because he's flying through the goddamn air.
 
2013-02-13 01:23:33 PM  

Champion of the Sun: gtfan92: You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.

Not that hard if you're also 260 and all you have to do is swipe his arms or undercut him, because he's flying through the goddamn air.


LeBron finishes better than just about anyone in the league. Nobody is strong enough to withstand cheap shots that you describe.
 
2013-02-13 01:23:47 PM  

Champion of the Sun: Watch footage from any late eighties playoff series involving any team. You'll see a lot of head shots and clotheslines which were called as regular PFs.


LOL, "watch footage." I notice you didn't include the part I bolded. You said a typical foul would be a flagrant 2 now. I'm not arguing that the headshots and clotheslines were called regular fouls; I'm arguing that not every foul was a farking clothesline like some people want to believe.

Champion of the Sun: gtfan92: You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.

Not that hard if you're also 260 and all you have to do is swipe his arms or undercut him, because he's flying through the goddamn air.


And... you're going to do that... how? LeBron doesn't play like MJ or Kobe and just relentlessly attack the basket 30 times a game. When he gets by his man and someone comes to help (which could be illegal in the 80s and 90s depending on how they helped), LeBron willingly give the ball up to an open shooter. Most of LeBron's "OMG" dunks come in transition, where attempting to stop him is going to hurt you more than it hurts him.
 
2013-02-13 01:30:40 PM  

gtfan92: Champion of the Sun: Watch footage from any late eighties playoff series involving any team. You'll see a lot of head shots and clotheslines which were called as regular PFs.

LOL, "watch footage." I notice you didn't include the part I bolded. You said a typical foul would be a flagrant 2 now. I'm not arguing that the headshots and clotheslines were called regular fouls; I'm arguing that not every foul was a farking clothesline like some people want to believe.

Champion of the Sun: gtfan92: You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.

Not that hard if you're also 260 and all you have to do is swipe his arms or undercut him, because he's flying through the goddamn air.

And... you're going to do that... how? LeBron doesn't play like MJ or Kobe and just relentlessly attack the basket 30 times a game. When he gets by his man and someone comes to help (which could be illegal in the 80s and 90s depending on how they helped), LeBron willingly give the ball up to an open shooter. Most of LeBron's "OMG" dunks come in transition, where attempting to stop him is going to hurt you more than it hurts him.


I said that a hard foul back then is a flagrant 2 today.  You called BS.  There was no such thing as a flagrant back then, so where am I wrong?

So you're saying LeBron doesn't attack the rim?  I see 4-5 highlights every night of him dunking on people, and the defenders are usually scurrying out of the way since they can't really do anything about it.  Back in the day that would've resulted in a clothesline.  It's far from the entirety of his game, but he drives quite often.

Christ bro, look up the Jordan Rules, tactics that would result in fines and suspensions in today's game.
 
2013-02-13 01:32:03 PM  

Champion of the Sun: so where am I wrong?


Reading comprehension isn't for everyone, folks.
 
2013-02-13 01:32:56 PM  

gtfan92: Why are people acting like players got clothes-lined every game in the NBA in the 80s and 90s? Yes, the "no easy baskets" rule seemed to be taken with more heart, but stop exaggerating.

You want to try to slam the 260lb guy running at Olympian speeds? Be my guest.


Players were smaller (less bulky/muscular) then, too. You didn't have a Shaq - or a 260# forward like LeBron. Bill Laimbeer was 6'11/245, just for comparison's sake - and he killed people.
 
2013-02-13 01:33:57 PM  

gtfan92: Champion of the Sun: so where am I wrong?

Reading comprehension isn't for everyone, folks.


So you respond to none of my points and declare yourself right?  Great job.
 
2013-02-13 01:36:21 PM  

Champion of the Sun: I think a little taunting to LeBron about his father would make him crumble.


If it's that easy someone aught to try it.
 
2013-02-13 01:38:37 PM  

you have pee hands: Champion of the Sun: I think a little taunting to LeBron about his father would make him crumble.

If it's that easy someone aught to try it.


They did.  Rumor around the league was Delonte West was sleeping with his mother, he disappeared against the Celtics I think.
 
2013-02-13 01:39:11 PM  
@ Champion of the Sun:

I said this:

"You said a typical foul would be a flagrant 2 now. I'm not arguing that the headshots and clotheslines were called regular fouls; I'm arguing that not every foul was a farking clothesline like some people want to believe."

You responded with this:

"I said that a hard foul back then is a flagrant 2 today.  You called BS. There was no such thing as a flagrant back then, so where am I wrong?"

Geez, maybe the part where you said a typical foul was the same as a clothesline?
 
2013-02-13 01:41:01 PM  

Champion of the Sun: To be fair though, MJ had to play in a much more physical league.  I think LeBron could handle the physical beating, but he's not mentally tough enough to handle guys like Rick Mahorn and Laimbeer taunting him and kicking his ass.


From what I've heard, y'all can thank KG for turning LeBron into Jordan 2.0.  Basically something in LeBron snapped during the series with the C's, leading to his game 6 dissection of them.
 
2013-02-13 01:42:48 PM  
 
2013-02-13 01:44:57 PM  

Champion of the Sun: you have pee hands: Champion of the Sun: I think a little taunting to LeBron about his father would make him crumble.

If it's that easy someone aught to try it.

They did.  Rumor around the league was Delonte West was sleeping with his mother, he disappeared against the Celtics I think.


Oh yeah, the time he "quit" his way to 27-19-10 in a playoff elimination game.  He couldn't make up enough for the fact that his teammates weren't all that good at basketball so people started making up stories.

Most teams in the 80s gave up 110 points a game even with a much less popular 3 ball because they played lousy defense.
 
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