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(Orlando Sentinel)   New law lets HOA foreclose on house immediately if you miss a payment. Bonus: you can't legally challenge whether you actually owe the money   (orlandosentinel.com) divider line 34
    More: Florida, New Laws, HOA, De Land, secret ballots, homeowners associations, payments  
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16278 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Feb 2013 at 12:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2013-02-13 12:59:42 AM
7 votes:
OK.

Foreclose on 7 or 8 houses because they owe you each less than a thousand dollars in back dues. You win, the families move out, and nobody else can afford to buy the homes and move in. So now your neighborhood is half-empty and now nobody is paying dues.

I think I may have spotted the flaw in your brilliant plan, but you just go ahead and start foreclosing you geniuses you.
2013-02-13 01:27:51 AM
5 votes:

FizixJunkee: GleeUnit: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I have no problem with HOAs.  If you're dumb enough to sign up for one, you deserve what you get.

As someone who has never owned a house before.. How limited do your options get in your average suburban area if HOA's are an automatic "fark that" as you're looking for a place?  Are they pretty ubiquitous?

According to  http://gawker.com/5830257/the-horror-of-homeowners-associations , 80% of new homes are in a homeowner's association.


Solution: don't buy a new home.

Benefit: your home might actually be built well.
2013-02-13 01:15:36 AM
5 votes:
"My purpose in sponsoring the bill is to try to establish more fairness in the homeowner-association community and try to have a better balance between the residents and the developers," he said.

Because nothing says "balance" like being able to foreclose on a $300,000 house for $2,000 in fees to some group that isn't even doing its job anymore due to "budget woes". Nothing says "balance" like making someone pay in advance to challenge a claim that they owe money in the first place. Finally nothing says "balance" like the attitude that if you hire an attorney to defend yourself against these claims, it means that you had the money all along and are just trying to screw them, but they get to keep a lawyer on retainer to sue YOU with full time.


I don't think this cock understands the concept of "balance". Either that, or he thinks he can keep pissing on these people's heads and tell them it's raining. There is no reason to join an HOA, and it's not really surprising that people have resorted to violence at these meetings. A bunch of Napoleons who get excited at lording over homeowners and screwing them out of their houses? Yeah, that's going to end well.
2013-02-13 02:41:18 AM
2 votes:

Mikey1969: Because sometimes it's next to impossible to find a nice house in a nice neighborhood without one. Believe me, it's one of our top criteria for a home when we start looking.



If you buy a house built with the cheapest lumber and by the lowest bidding subcontractor, in about 10-15 years, being in a bad neighborhood or HOA is going to be the least of your worries.

In virtually every area in the country, empty property is relatively cheap. Once you have said property, you can get a home of your own design, with your own choice of materials, and your own choice of contractors, for about the same or less per sq ft as a similarly sized house on an HOA property, but without the inflated property costs and other fees thrown in by the developer.

Yes, you will have a hassle dealing with zoning and the various permit agencies, but that hassle lasts 2-4 months at most, and a good contractor will take care of most of that for you. A bad HOA lasts until you sell the house, and could very easily artificially devalue your house due to stunts like the one in TFA.

I've been yelled at for saying this before, but I still believe that anyone who lives in an HOA made a deliberate choice to live there. There are always other options available. Those options might not be wrapped up and stocked on the Wal-mart shelf like an HOA home, but they are available, and likely always will be.

The only downside to this option is that you might have to drive an extra 10 miles to get to the city. But given a choice between a long drive to my own house, or a slightly shorter drive to what essentially amounts to an expensive apartment, I'll take the long drive any day.
2013-02-13 02:19:50 AM
2 votes:

jjorsett: Gyrfalcon: OK.

Foreclose on 7 or 8 houses because they owe you each less than a thousand dollars in back dues. You win, the families move out, and nobody else can afford to buy the homes and move in. So now your neighborhood is half-empty and now nobody is paying dues.

I think I may have spotted the flaw in your brilliant plan, but you just go ahead and start foreclosing you geniuses you.

Right, it would be much better to let deadbeats persist months/years at other's expense, racking up an increasing arrearage while the association limps along trying to keep the property from deteriorating and to meet its expenses, rather than forcing the owners to either perform on their obligations or get out and let in some people who can actually pay their bills.  At least the property will likely be bought by somebody who can afford it, and if not, the association will be no worse off since the departees weren't paying anyway.


That's more of a problem for the bank, as they will forclose on any real deadbeats. HOA's shouldn't have this "right". Loosen your bootstraps a little.
2013-02-13 01:05:09 AM
2 votes:
This just in...Florida is a shiathole.
2013-02-13 01:01:23 AM
2 votes:
HOA threads are a breath of fresh air after 3 months of gun threads.

Flame away, kids.
2013-02-13 06:13:57 PM
1 votes:

AccuJack: HOAs, good and bad, are freely formed associations under civil law.  They need to stay that way, and not be given status as an organ of government by writing laws for their benefit.  This dances close to the edge of doing that.

Additionally, once the government starts collecting money from any source, the desire/need for it overrides the best interests of the public, so the state collecting dollars from HOA members to pay for regulation means more government intervention down the road.  Once the government is involved they won't leave, and that also encourages new laws to change HOAs, because the government is now "involved".

HOAs are really just an end run around participating in a broken system of local governments anyway, except in cases where there's a shared structure to manage.  For people with stand alone properties, the only reason to have an HOA is to exercise greater control over their surroundings and property than is legally possible in an open city government.  All those pesky rights people have.

All that said, people are responsible for their actions.  If you bought a house with a covenant, you're stuck.  You always have a choice, if not much of one.  It's when HOAs start gaining status as governments that you have a right to complain... they are like a child's model of a government, with all the major features but none of the fine details that make it fair and equitable.


This. HOAs are virtually unknown in the UK and yet somehow the country isn't full of cars on blocks, overgrown gardens and, worst of all, people leaving their cars parked in their own drive overnight!
The local council takes care of most issues and is far more accountable and open than a HOA and there are legally defined laws and procedures, and appeals, open to people. I'd far father deal with the council than some neighbourhood asshole on a power trip.
For new developments the developer can putcovenants in the property deeds. Mine has no caravans to be parked in the drive while occupied, wood window frames only etc, but it is the council who enforce these rules if and when someone complains. Those rules cannot be changed after you buy your house, so you know exactly what you are getting.
2013-02-13 12:44:43 PM
1 votes:
Most (almost all) HoAs are outright delusional about the 'value' they provide. It's only rarely anything like their dues. As a rule of thumb, if you're paying more then $50 a month, or if there isn't real community property - pools, commons, etc. - that you get access to, it's a waste. "Protecting property values" is almost universally a sack of crap.
2013-02-13 12:17:51 PM
1 votes:

Girion47: eggrolls: Girion47: Joe Blowme: 1. Dont buy in a HOA neighborhood

I like how you ignored all previous discussion about how not buying into an HOA neighborhood is quickly becoming an impossibility.

Bullshait. I have looked at houses for the last several months (I'm just starting to think about buying), and not ONE of them has an HOA. New construction, old construction, doesn't matter. If you don't want one, you don't have to have one.

Okay Mr. one of the oldest cities in the U.S.

Why don't you try pulling your head out of your ass and remember that there is more to this country that what is NE of Philly.


Precisely. HUGE swathes of land to build or buy, or find a house where you don't have to give a damn what your neighbors think. If those us packed into one of the densest housing markets in the country can do it, no one else has an excuse.

But if you want to live in cookie-cutter land and just can't get by without the community outhouse so your crotch spawn and his fellow Ritalin-addled house apes can have his birthday party without threatening your ulpholstery, I got no sympathy.
2013-02-13 11:52:52 AM
1 votes:

Girion47: Joe Blowme: 1. Dont buy in a HOA neighborhood

I like how you ignored all previous discussion about how not buying into an HOA neighborhood is quickly becoming an impossibility.


Bullshait. I have looked at houses for the last several months (I'm just starting to think about buying), and not ONE of them has an HOA. New construction, old construction, doesn't matter. If you don't want one, you don't have to have one.
2013-02-13 10:41:30 AM
1 votes:

Curious: fusillade762: So they can take away your house for unpaid HOA fees even if you're current on your mortgage?? How the flying f*ck does that work?

the unpaid dues are awarded as a judgement to the HOA and against you. the HOA sells the property to satisfy the judgement. some states have laws that protect your primary residence. it seems FL doesn't.


This is correct.

People really have no idea how much power HOAs have.

They can basically have a lien put on your home based solely upon their word against yours. They have the local Sheriff serve you a notice and you are farked......just that easy.
2013-02-13 10:27:11 AM
1 votes:

THE GREAT NAME: Quick, libs! Side with delinquent non-payers! Talk some rubbish about fairness so they feel good about letting others down! Demand new laws to protect them! And new taxes to literally buy their vote!


So... just to calrify... you would be IN FAVOR of a law that allows the HOA to force you out of your home without warning because you HOA check got lost in the mail ONE TIME?


Please answer with a simple yes no.
2013-02-13 10:19:32 AM
1 votes:
While I find the entire concept of an HOA to be foreign and distasteful, I do understand why they exist. I also understand that people agree to pay those dues when they buy the property, and the HOA should have legal recourse to collect those fees. I do not for a second believe that HOA's should, under any circumstance, have the ability to foreclose on a property for late or unpaid fees or any other reason. I don't even understand the rationale behind the whole concept. If I owe a business or individual money for goods and/or services, they can't just come take my house away if I don't pay them. Hell, even credit card companies aren't that brazen! The only way anyone should EVER be able to evict me from a home that I own and claim it as theirs is if I knowingly and intentionally put the house up for collateral on a loan and then fail to follow through in repaying the loan. There are other legal mechanisms in place to try to claim that debt. In my state, the GOVERNMENT can't even legally confiscate my home for unpaid taxes, even if the amount owed is more than the value of the property. They can take other properties for unpaid taxes, but they can't take my primary residence. If even the government can't claim my property for unpaid bills, a jumped-up self-appointed board of neighborhood busy-bodies sure as hell should not have that authority.
2013-02-13 10:01:18 AM
1 votes:
HOAs, good and bad, are freely formed associations under civil law.  They need to stay that way, and not be given status as an organ of government by writing laws for their benefit.  This dances close to the edge of doing that.

Additionally, once the government starts collecting money from any source, the desire/need for it overrides the best interests of the public, so the state collecting dollars from HOA members to pay for regulation means more government intervention down the road.  Once the government is involved they won't leave, and that also encourages new laws to change HOAs, because the government is now "involved".

HOAs are really just an end run around participating in a broken system of local governments anyway, except in cases where there's a shared structure to manage.  For people with stand alone properties, the only reason to have an HOA is to exercise greater control over their surroundings and property than is legally possible in an open city government.  All those pesky rights people have.

All that said, people are responsible for their actions.  If you bought a house with a covenant, you're stuck.  You always have a choice, if not much of one.  It's when HOAs start gaining status as governments that you have a right to complain... they are like a child's model of a government, with all the major features but none of the fine details that make it fair and equitable.
2013-02-13 09:11:54 AM
1 votes:

lack of warmth: 99.998er: Yeah, I know a guy that lives on the 32nd floor of a condo. He is in the process of foreclosure with the bank. He also hasn't paid HOA fees for several months. They disabled his key fob for the elevator and yanked his underground parking. Now he has to get consierge to let him up (after a couple of days of climbing the stairs for a few days). I know the HOA prez and they bent over backward for him, but dude refused to attempt any payment at all.

He can't pay dues or mortgage, I will go on a limb, he's out of money.  Now what will be interesting is who will foreclose first.  I am wondering, can a HOA foreclose on a house/condo that has been foreclosed on by a bank and is up for sale?  I am sure a bank can still foreclose if the HOA take the house, but doesn't pay off the mortgage, which would crack me up.  I do know cities can take properties from banks for not paying taxes.  I just want to know if HOA has that kind of legal pull.  No way the HOA can foreclose on city property, so that would be funny as well.

I will find it very funny if HOA forecloses on a house that has 75% of the mortgage unpaid and back property taxes.  They take the house and laugh to themselves and the next day get foreclosed on by the bank who doesn't pay attention fast enough and the city takes it.  After all that, the house sat long enough to get the 'Detroit' treatment and the neighbors are stuck living next to the same thing they were paying all that money to avoid.  Some of that has happened up here.  Only the banks allow the property to taken by the city once the house suffered at the hands of criminals.


Very good points made there. How can a HOA forclose on property?  Aren't owners or mortage lenders the ones in posession of the deed? I can understand how they could put a lien on your property but foreclosing by the HOA would be like Allstate auto insurancerepossessing your Camry.
2013-02-13 08:45:52 AM
1 votes:

Elvis Presleys Death Throne: I was looking at buying a nice, small house on a lake with some algae on it. The realtor mentioned that, "the families were trying to get a group together to pool money to remove the algae." The possibility there could be an HOA there someday was enough for me to leave running. I don't know who would think paying money for someone else to tell you what to do under threat of seizing your property was a good idea.

Damn you whoever started buying into the HOA bullshiat. Damn you to hell.


They could form whatever they want, they couldn't force you to join, pay or fall under their rules. If you felt really generous you could even offer to pay a monthly fee to cover upkeep of common areas etc but say you won't agree to subject to any rules regarding what you do with your home.
2013-02-13 07:24:57 AM
1 votes:

Nuclear Monk: GleeUnit: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I have no problem with HOAs.  If you're dumb enough to sign up for one, you deserve what you get.

As someone who has never owned a house before.. How limited do your options get in your average suburban area if HOA's are an automatic "fark that" as you're looking for a place?  Are they pretty ubiquitous?

Varies a little bit by area, but in general, most new homes are part of an HOA because of the incentives offered to the municipality and the developers.  In most cases, the HOA will be responsible for much of the infrastructure of its neighborhood, which relieves the municipality of a budget burden.  In exchange, developers are often allowed to more densely develop...thus more customers for a given sized subdivision.

Your best bet is to look for an older home if you want to avoid an HOA, but that then becomes an issue of your tolerance towards dealing with the material issues and outdated floor plans of an older home, all while brand new homes with updated stylings and layouts are being dangled in front of your face if you would just sign the HOA agreement.


my grandmother recently passed away, and her home down here is from the mid 1950s... I would take that home any day over any modern built home in a heartbeat. It's built better (been through God only knows how many hurricanes and whatnot) and still looks like it was built yesterday (NOT an exaggeration). Homes built today last maybe 10yrs before you start having to replace shiat like the roof, and about 20-30yrs before there are structural issues. My grandmothers house has NONE of those issues and is somewhere around 60yrs old.
2013-02-13 07:20:49 AM
1 votes:

GleeUnit: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I have no problem with HOAs.  If you're dumb enough to sign up for one, you deserve what you get.

As someone who has never owned a house before.. How limited do your options get in your average suburban area if HOA's are an automatic "fark that" as you're looking for a place?  Are they pretty ubiquitous?


Varies a little bit by area, but in general, most new homes are part of an HOA because of the incentives offered to the municipality and the developers.  In most cases, the HOA will be responsible for much of the infrastructure of its neighborhood, which relieves the municipality of a budget burden.  In exchange, developers are often allowed to more densely develop...thus more customers for a given sized subdivision.

Your best bet is to look for an older home if you want to avoid an HOA, but that then becomes an issue of your tolerance towards dealing with the material issues and outdated floor plans of an older home, all while brand new homes with updated stylings and layouts are being dangled in front of your face if you would just sign the HOA agreement.
2013-02-13 07:17:25 AM
1 votes:

PunGent: Oh, and the headline is, unsurprisingly, misleading.

You CAN challenge the amount due, you just have to pay up first, rather than dragging out the process.

If an HOA abuses this, you can still sue them for, let's see, loss of quiet enjoyment and tortious interference with contract, for starters...and I haven't even had my coffee yet.

This ain't the end of the world, even if it passes.


that is of course assuming you have an endless supply of money and an attorney on retainer to fight it, but I am sure that's what you meant... justice for the rich, right?
2013-02-13 07:16:23 AM
1 votes:

RandomRandom: Aquapope: Ok, but why? The seller shouldn't care anymore, they're selling. So how does it get on a deed, a doc that pretty much only describes a property and defines ownership. And if, as the buyer, I say "Take that shiat off the deed!" who do I say it to? Who has authority to remove it (or modify it, for that matter)? Are these deed codicils sunshined or is that property under HOA influence forever? Is it a civil contract kind of thing, in which case it shouldn't involve anybody but the seller and buyer, or is the city/county somehow involved? What the hell? I want that house and I don't want HOA stinking up the place! So why can't that happen?

As I understand it, it's just a contract, much like any other contract..  In this case, a contract entered by the initial buyer of the house with the HOA corporation.   Removing it from the deed would put the buyer in violation.  How it carries along following bankruptcies or foreclosures is an interesting question.  There may be state laws to create exceptions for HOA's, as most contractual obligations would be voided after a bankruptcy.

Bad description by subby.  This doesn't force homeowners to pay the HOA.  The bill just says that homeowners need to pay their dues into ESCROW before embarking on a voyage of destruction against their HOA. The HOA would not appear to get anything until the court has made a determination. If the court decides against the HOA, the homeowner would seem to recoup all monies put in escrow.

Seems quite reasonable.


you think that's reasonable?
so it would be reasonable for someone to accuse you of owing them some arbitrary amount of money and you have to come up with that money and put it in an escrow account before you can even go to court? And if you don't they take your property? That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
2013-02-13 06:53:44 AM
1 votes:
I was looking at buying a nice, small house on a lake with some algae on it. The realtor mentioned that, "the families were trying to get a group together to pool money to remove the algae." The possibility there could be an HOA there someday was enough for me to leave running. I don't know who would think paying money for someone else to tell you what to do under threat of seizing your property was a good idea.

Damn you whoever started buying into the HOA bullshiat. Damn you to hell.
2013-02-13 05:35:51 AM
1 votes:

Aquapope: Ok, but why? The seller shouldn't care anymore, they're selling. So how does it get on a deed, a doc that pretty much only describes a property and defines ownership. And if, as the buyer, I say "Take that shiat off the deed!" who do I say it to? Who has authority to remove it (or modify it, for that matter)? Are these deed codicils sunshined or is that property under HOA influence forever? Is it a civil contract kind of thing, in which case it shouldn't involve anybody but the seller and buyer, or is the city/county somehow involved? What the hell? I want that house and I don't want HOA stinking up the place! So why can't that happen?


As I understand it, it's just a contract, much like any other contract..  In this case, a contract entered by the initial buyer of the house with the HOA corporation.   Removing it from the deed would put the buyer in violation.  How it carries along following bankruptcies or foreclosures is an interesting question.  There may be state laws to create exceptions for HOA's, as most contractual obligations would be voided after a bankruptcy.

Bad description by subby.  This doesn't force homeowners to pay the HOA.  The bill just says that homeowners need to pay their dues into ESCROW before embarking on a voyage of destruction against their HOA. The HOA would not appear to get anything until the court has made a determination. If the court decides against the HOA, the homeowner would seem to recoup all monies put in escrow.

Seems quite reasonable.
2013-02-13 02:55:17 AM
1 votes:

fusillade762: So they can take away your house for unpaid HOA fees even if you're current on your mortgage?? How the flying f*ck does that work?


They are called DUES because you DUE have to pay them and they DUE take your house if you dont.  A realtor told me that while explaining I would be an idiot to buy a house I was looking at because that particular HOA was a nightmare.

So, remember that, people, if you are a pain in the ass HOA, it DOES drive your property value down worse than if someone has a non standard shade of peach on their mailbox.
2013-02-13 02:30:40 AM
1 votes:
I predict an increase in arson
2013-02-13 02:30:32 AM
1 votes:

marcre3363: In theory, I'm against this.

In reality, I've been stuck running a 13 unit Condo building with assessments. And I understand the premise.

I had one unit that has been a thorn in my ass for years. She played the game all that time. While I spent hours of my personal time with lawyers, she was killing time and I had to deal with other unit owners complaining about her unit reaking of weed 24/7.

I've had to Sic attorney's on her twice in the last 18 months. Once went as far as where we evicted her, changed her locks and kicked her out. She "magically" came up with $4500 in back payments within 24 hours. In the six months before, I supervised the Gas and Electric company turning off her service because she was more than $1K overdue.

She was the rule. The exception to the rule are those that might miss a payment or two between a situation. But she was more than happy to play our building for years. She bought a brand new VW SUV, which she had for month before it was repossessed, then had a cab pick her up every morning for work while the rest of us walked to the train.

I think alot of these rules are crap. But when someone eventually buys her unit, in addition to taking our property values, the building will only re-coup six-months of back assesments. We're eating the cost of the thousands of dollars we spent to evict her previously.

Life's a game. She played it well and my hard-working neighbors and I are left footing the costs.


So...okay. Since you're being reasonable and have a fairly balanced view of this:

What was she getting for her HOA fees? How much were they, and why were they being paid? What was in the C&Cs that allowed her to smoke dope on the property 24/7 that nobody could call the cops and have her arrested? (Bearing in mind that she is the OWNER of her own property and gets to do as she pleases inside her own home, regardless of what it does to your "property values")

HOAs are a delicate balance between trying to keep the neighborhood nice and livable, and trying to restrict what people do in their own homes and their own property. It's not like an apartment where someone else owns the building and they can make the tenants do what they say. Much as you and your neighbors didn't like it, she was perfectly within her rights to be a borderline felon, spend her money on new cars and not on her utilities, and decline to pay for the upkeep of the common areas she wasn't using. If YOU want to do so, that's your right. HOAs are to benefit everyone; but they are essentially asking everyone to give up some of their personal rights.

I mean, its very sad that you got stuck with having to enforce this on a person who obviously didn't want to play the game your way; but consider that you and your fellow HOA owners and operators are basically saying "To live here, you must behave as if you lived in a home you don't fully own." That makes it good for everyone, but galling for many. If people tried to understand this on both sides of the equation, things might not come to this pass. Then we might not see court cases like yours, or people being sued for having fences the wrong shade of white.
2013-02-13 02:22:46 AM
1 votes:

slashmonkey: Then again you could always bankrupt them with an OBAMA sign that was 4" over regulation height their own stupidity:

http://www.kansas.com/2013/02/10/2670545/homeowners-association-spat -b rings.html


That was a very satisfying read.  Thank you!
2013-02-13 01:49:33 AM
1 votes:
Couldn't they settle these disputes in a more Florida-esque fashion?  Like maybe repurpose the Citrus Bowl for this?

pics.imcdb.org
2013-02-13 01:24:45 AM
1 votes:

grimlock1972: First off a HOA should never be allowed to foreclose over dues they should send them to collections.   secondly this bill is a very had idea.

Thirdly i have a feeling the author of this bill is president or an officer in an HOA.


Or a republican.
2013-02-13 01:09:41 AM
1 votes:

GleeUnit: Incontinent_dog_and_monkey_rodeo: I have no problem with HOAs.  If you're dumb enough to sign up for one, you deserve what you get.

As someone who has never owned a house before.. How limited do your options get in your average suburban area if HOA's are an automatic "fark that" as you're looking for a place?  Are they pretty ubiquitous?


According to  http://gawker.com/5830257/the-horror-of-homeowners-associations , 80% of new homes are in a homeowner's association.
2013-02-13 01:05:17 AM
1 votes:
I have no problem with HOAs.  If you're dumb enough to sign up for one, you deserve what you get.
2013-02-13 01:03:44 AM
1 votes:
So they can take away your house for unpaid HOA fees even if you're current on your mortgage?? How the flying f*ck does that work?
2013-02-13 01:02:02 AM
1 votes:
Well it's a good thing that Giant Death Bulldozers are still legal.

/They can only push a man so far.
2013-02-13 12:57:48 AM
1 votes:
You can still kick in the HOA president's front door and rape his family as a sign of protest, right?
 
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