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(The New York Times)   Zen Master: you must forego attachment to all things, even your attachment to personal modesty. Zen student: Is that some kind of metaphonical koan? Zen Master: No, seriously, whip out 'dem boobies   (nytimes.com) divider line 123
    More: Asinine, patriarchy, female students  
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13281 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Feb 2013 at 12:52 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-12 02:37:23 AM

DarkLancelot: What is the sound of one hand fapping?


Probably "fap, fap, fap" for most of us, Mr. Jeremy. ;)
 
2013-02-12 02:40:12 AM
Man, I just came here for the tit jokes. Somehow I got clickjacked to alt.talk.religion.weirdo
 
2013-02-12 02:43:30 AM
My Kentucky version of Buddhism: 1. Get cat. 2. Put cat on lap. 3. Pet cat until you fall asleep. Congratulations! You achieved zen!
 
2013-02-12 02:51:24 AM
At least its with adults of the opposite sex - which beats Catholic Priests hands down
 
2013-02-12 02:54:33 AM

BarkingUnicorn: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: LGT paywall. Awesome job subby.

You've used up your monthly allotment of freebies, apparently.


Yes, but apparently it's subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how the NYT paywall works. It's also subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how badly it works and how it's so easy to get around that my 70-year-old mother figured it out on her own and can bypass it in less than a second.

Now, I'll grant that not everyone knows this, and not everyone has the time or inclination to figure it out. But I'm guessing most people wouldn't be a dick about it, blame a total stranger, and come off looking like a fool in front of a whole thread full of people, many of whom already think you're kind of a tool for the way you behave in political threads.

But I could be wrong. Maybe being a dick about things makes the world a better place, and maybe such behavior will shame subby into finding a magical way to link to the NYT that magically erases the cookies on Dow's browser before loading TFA. Maybe I'll try this being a dick thing and see if it helps me get into websites without paying. I think I try a few pron sites to start. If there's anywhere I should be able to get in for free by being a dick, it's a pron site.
 
2013-02-12 03:13:02 AM

Jezrael: Seems like every religion is involved in some sort of debauchery these days, eh? Also, as doglover says, Buddhism is, indeed, a religion...


Every religion has adherents who are involved in debauchery. Every profession, industry, corporation, political party, sport, youth organization, nation, etc., has members who are involved in debauchery.  Debauchery is a characteristic of humans, not of their institutions.

Yes, Buddhism is a religion; it requires belief in things that cannot be proved or disproved by science.  You cannot tell if someone has achieved Enlightenment.  When someone dies, you can't tell whether he is reincarnated or passes into Nirvana.  There is a Zen saying,

"Great faith, great doubt, great effort: these are the things that lead to  enlightenment."

One can almost imagine a scientist saying the same.  Many scientists certainly act as if they believe it.

Buddhism is focused on something easily proven by science:  suffering exists.  Buddhism is not concerned with the existence of God, or the origin of the universe.  It is concerned with the cessation of suffering.

All the gods, demons, hells, ghosts, etc., that are attached to  various schools of Buddhism are simply teaching aids.  Their stories and rituals help many people follow the Eight-Fold Path to the cessation of suffering.

Zen Buddhism doesn't employ such aids.  Meditation is Zen's essential practice.  Different schools of Zen have different aids to meditation, but none is supernatural.  Sometimes all it takes is a place to sit.

While Buddhism is a religion, it is practiced scientifically.
 
2013-02-12 03:16:40 AM

100 Watt Walrus: BarkingUnicorn: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: LGT paywall. Awesome job subby.

You've used up your monthly allotment of freebies, apparently.

Yes, but apparently it's subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how the NYT paywall works. It's also subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how badly it works and how it's so easy to get around that my 70-year-old mother figured it out on her own and can bypass it in less than a second.

Now, I'll grant that not everyone knows this, and not everyone has the time or inclination to figure it out. But I'm guessing most people wouldn't be a dick about it, blame a total stranger, and come off looking like a fool in front of a whole thread full of people, many of whom already think you're kind of a tool for the way you behave in political threads.

But I could be wrong. Maybe being a dick about things makes the world a better place, and maybe such behavior will shame subby into finding a magical way to link to the NYT that magically erases the cookies on Dow's browser before loading TFA. Maybe I'll try this being a dick thing and see if it helps me get into websites without paying. I think I try a few pron sites to start. If there's anywhere I should be able to get in for free by being a dick, it's a pron site.


Careful; you'll use up your monthly allotment of snark! :-)  Sounds the bourbon allowance is already gone.
 
2013-02-12 03:35:45 AM

BarkingUnicorn: 100 Watt Walrus: BarkingUnicorn: Dow Jones and the Temple of Doom: LGT paywall. Awesome job subby.

You've used up your monthly allotment of freebies, apparently.

Yes, but apparently it's subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how the NYT paywall works. It's also subby's fault that Dow Jones doesn't know how badly it works and how it's so easy to get around that my 70-year-old mother figured it out on her own and can bypass it in less than a second.

Now, I'll grant that not everyone knows this, and not everyone has the time or inclination to figure it out. But I'm guessing most people wouldn't be a dick about it, blame a total stranger, and come off looking like a fool in front of a whole thread full of people, many of whom already think you're kind of a tool for the way you behave in political threads.

But I could be wrong. Maybe being a dick about things makes the world a better place, and maybe such behavior will shame subby into finding a magical way to link to the NYT that magically erases the cookies on Dow's browser before loading TFA. Maybe I'll try this being a dick thing and see if it helps me get into websites without paying. I think I try a few pron sites to start. If there's anywhere I should be able to get in for free by being a dick, it's a pron site.

Careful; you'll use up your monthly allotment of snark! :-)  Sounds the bourbon allowance is already gone.


I'm just trying out the being-a-dick thing. Hang on. Gotta go kick the cat.
 
2013-02-12 03:44:04 AM
ZIE (Zen In Email) thread?

/EIP
 
2013-02-12 03:47:47 AM

flemardo: I almost peed myself a bit laughing when I found out a term for him was roshi.


Came here looking for Master Hroshi, leaving satisfied.

/but seriously, as corny as Dragonball was, are you surprised?

//not to mention the same tropes in Ranma 1/2?
 
2013-02-12 03:52:21 AM

flemardo: I almost peed myself a bit laughing when I found out a term for him was roshi.
[25.media.tumblr.com image 500x375]


Something funny about the term for "old master"?
 
2013-02-12 04:15:20 AM
www.buddhanet.net
Pfffttt...amateur!
 
2013-02-12 05:50:25 AM
FTA: "...Nikki Stubbs, who now lives in Vancouver, and who studied and worked at Mount Baldy, Mr. Sasaki's Zen center 50 miles east of Los Angeles..."

Mount Baldy? She certainly did...
 
2013-02-12 06:05:22 AM

BarkingUnicorn: HotWingAgenda: doglover:

You CAAAAAN be a Buddhist alone, but that's a piss poor application of the middle path. Ideally you should be helping others find the way and if not at least easing their suffering. An organized temple, especially one that helps with healing, sickness, and deaths, is almost essential for a Buddhist community. If you're not organized, you're helping fewer people than you could be, right? If grieving mothers don't have a monk to talk to, who'll help them be strong in front of their kids? Who'll keep your ancestor's graves clear of vines and bird shiat?

HotWingAgenda: You just rendered a great description of Taoism and other organized Eastern religions.  Which has f*ckall to do with Buddhism.  Buddhism is not about communities, or parents, or dealing with other people at all.  The whole point is looking inward to know yourself, and therefore achieve greater understanding of the basic mechanics of the universe.

Recall the Four Noble Truths, the foundation of Buddhism:

The truth of dukkha (suffering, anxiety, dissatisfaction)
The truth of the origin of dukkha
The truth of the cessation of dukkha
The truth of the path leading to the cessation of dukkha

The "whole point" of Buddhist practice is the cessation of suffering.

Immediately, we come to the first great fork in the tree of Buddhist sects.  Who's suffering; just yours, or the suffering of all sentient beings?  Theravada Buddhists focus on ending their own suffering through personal understanding.  Mahayana Buddists take the vow of the Bodhisattva:  to forego the end of their personal  suffering until the suffering of every other sentient being is ended.

Zen Buddhism is a subsect of Mahayana.  The Zen practitioner may practice alone - Zen's founder, Bodhidharma, spent nine years staring at a wall, speaking to no one. But when enlightenment is achieved, it is to be passed along to others to help them end their suffering.  This is why Zen features the transmission of Dharma from master t ...


I would have typed something like that, but like I said, I had important walkin' to do. Koenji isn't gonna scour itself for American sized jeans.
 
2013-02-12 06:07:57 AM

skinink: Zen Boobism.

[i.huffpost.com image 570x856]


i.imgur.com
 
2013-02-12 06:09:51 AM

illannoyin: skinink: Zen Boobism.

[i.huffpost.com image 570x856]

[i.imgur.com image 656x656]


On an American, it's a dress. On a Japanese, it's a tunic.
 
2013-02-12 06:10:37 AM

HotWingAgenda: You just rendered a great description of Taoism and other organized Eastern religions. Which has f*ckall to do with Buddhism. Buddhism is not about communities, or parents, or dealing with other people at all. The whole point is looking inward to know yourself, and therefore achieve greater understanding of the basic mechanics of the universe.


Yeah, yeah. You take your hinayana and you stay in India with all the other naked fakirs.
 
2013-02-12 06:36:37 AM
I learned everything i need to know about buddhism from the movie point break.

Surfs up, brah.
 
2013-02-12 06:45:37 AM
I don't know what happened here...  I was reading the article, and the site refreshed itself saying, "Oh, we're sorry.  We seem to have lost the article.  If you sign up, this likely won't happen in the future."

Nice...  Assholes.

I was really interested in those boobs, uh, I mean, the article.  About boobs.
 
2013-02-12 07:04:48 AM

BarkingUnicorn: While Buddhism is a religion, it is practiced scientifically


If it was practiced scientificially they would only teach or advocate things they know will help you escape from the cycle of rebirth.  Since the cycle itself is impossible to prove, and escaping it is impossibl;e to prove you can't say it is practiced scientificially.

BarkingUnicorn: Buddhism is not concerned with the existence of God, or the origin of the universe. It is concerned with the cessation of suffering


Buddhism has a pretty in depth cosmology.  Not sure hwo you can say theya ren't concerend with the originof the universe.

Depending on the flavor there are gods.
 
2013-02-12 07:08:09 AM

Brainsick: Notabunny: fta a "career of misconduct,"

See, mom? I wasn't a smartass delinquent. I just started on my career path in grade school.

Couldn't commit to a career of evil?

[burnsburdick11.wikis.birmingham.k12.mi.us image 155x151]


Something wrong with Astronomy?
 
2013-02-12 07:16:37 AM
graphics8.nytimes.com
Men constantly touch this woman inappropriately...
 
2013-02-12 07:17:58 AM

liam76: hwo you


liam76: theya ren't concerend


liam76: originof


I`ve started typing in this way lately. I`m worried I might have early symptoms of parkinsons.
 
2013-02-12 07:21:28 AM

dready zim: liam76: hwo you

liam76: theya ren't concerend

liam76: originof

I`ve started typing in this way lately. I`m worried I might have early symptoms of parkinsons.


I have just always been terrible at typing.  Autocorrect has made me even worse and we don't have it at my broweser at work.
 
2013-02-12 07:26:56 AM

dready zim: I`ve started typing in this way lately. I`m worried I might have early symptoms of parkinsons.


I thought this once while I was in a period of slurred typing.  Realized it was more that I had a serious case of not sleeping the fark enough.

Seriously.  Try it.
 
2013-02-12 07:27:25 AM

Gyrfalcon: I'd really rather stay attached to my boobies, thanks.


I'm sure a lot of guys feel that way about your boobies.
 
2013-02-12 08:04:14 AM

flamingboar: My Kentucky version of Buddhism: 1. Get cat. 2. Put cat on lap. 3. Pet cat until you fall asleep. Congratulations! You achieved zen!


A friendly pussy can make life much more pleasant.
 
2013-02-12 08:04:59 AM

liam76: If it was practiced scientificially they would only teach or advocate things they know will help you escape from the cycle of rebirth.


Uh, not quite.

The cycle of death and rebirth is not provable to physics. However that the nature of dukkha (commonly suffering but actually a profound dissatisfaction of which physical and mental suffering are but a facet) is such that everything that exists at this level of enlightenment is flawed is simple observation.

There's simply nothing but oh so fleeting instances of true satisfaction. Even your highest highs can be pierced by the littlest things and soon fade to memory which clutch in vain like a photograph of a beautiful woman who has passed away never to return trying to ekk out a little more to ease your disquiet and it never quite works well enough. If you will contest this point, the burden of proof is simple. All you have to do is find true, lasting happiness in this life. The kind that celebrates the present fully as it is and is never tarnished by longing for what is not nor longing for what was. A trifling thing, that happiness. I'm sure you've found such a thing already, right?

But for those of us who are not as wise as you, there is the Buddha's teachings. The Middle Way, also known as the 8-Fold Path. The "greater vehicle" upon which we shall all be transported to a state of Nirvana eventually. Perhaps there are no Bodhisattva guiding us and perhaps one life is all we get. However the meditations handed down and the truths in the many sutras the Buddha left us seem to work enough. That is why it is called The Middle Way, because it works.

It is not, however, called The Only Way, because it is not. That's why Buddhism spread so fast across Asia. It was compatible with every local belief. Even science cannot find fault with it upon close investigation because while each school has their own dogma, the Buddha was FAMOUS as a teacher who talked at the level of the listener, so he made many contradictory seeming statements about the nature of enlightenment depending on if he was addressing farmers who'd never seen a prince before or his closest disciples. Many, many, many more monks have since added their own insights to the practice in a similar fashion, following the Buddha's example of talking at a level the audience can understand. So ultimately the proof of the teaching is in the enlightenment of those who practice it diligently, not the dogma of the particular school.

If you find something that works better than previous schools' teachings, it is a boon, not heresy. Practices change over time as better meditations are developed. Schools wax and wane in popularity based on their effectiveness and local culture. Sometimes local religious elements are worked in because that speaks to the monks of that area. Texts are carefully translated into the local languages. Practices are altered to get people the most advancement as quickly as possible.

Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found.
 
2013-02-12 08:06:06 AM
So, today I learned that Zen Buddism is pretty much like all the other religions.
 
2013-02-12 08:16:52 AM

HotWingAgenda: Buddhism is not about communities, or parents, or dealing with other people at all. The whole point is looking inward to know yourself, and therefore achieve greater understanding of the basic mechanics of the universe.


The central message of Buddhism is not "Every man for himself."
www.screeninsults.com

/hot
 
2013-02-12 08:40:02 AM

doglover: liam76: If it was practiced scientificially they would only teach or advocate things they know will help you escape from the cycle of rebirth.

Uh, not quite.

The cycle of death and rebirth is not provable to physics. However that the nature of dukkha (commonly suffering but actually a profound dissatisfaction of which physical and mental suffering are but a facet) is such that everything that exists at this level of enlightenment is flawed is simple observation.


Sorry but if it isn't provabelt o physics, it isn't scientific.

If it require enlightenment it isn't sceintific.

doglover: There's simply nothing but oh so fleeting instances of true satisfaction. Even your highest highs can be pierced by the littlest things and soon fade to memory which clutch in vain like a photograph of a beautiful woman who has passed away never to return trying to ekk out a little more to ease your disquiet and it never quite works well enough. If you will contest this point, the burden of proof is simple. All you have to do is find true, lasting happiness in this life. The kind that celebrates the present fully as it is and is never tarnished by longing for what is not nor longing for what was. A trifling thing, that happiness. I'm sure you've found such a thing already, right?


When I was in middle school I was catholic.  I was dating a baptist girl and I went to one of her youth group meetings.  We had a pretty good talk abotu communion, what I thought it meant, what it symbolized, how I felt, etc.  He brought up a remarkably similiar argument about how true happiness can only be found by having a personal relation ship with Christ, and unless I felt like I did when in church or getting communion I didn't have that relationship.


doglover: But for those of us who are not as wise as you, there is the Buddha's teachings. The Middle Way, also known as the 8-Fold Path. The "greater vehicle" upon which we shall all be transported to a state of Nirvana eventually. Perhaps there are no Bodhisattva guiding us and perhaps one life is all we get. However the meditations handed down and the truths in the many sutras the Buddha left us seem to work enough. That is why it is called The Middle Way, because it works.

It is not, however, called The Only Way, because it is not. That's why Buddhism spread so fast across Asia. It was compatible with every local belief. Even science cannot find fault with it upon close investigation because while each school has their own dogma, the Buddha was FAMOUS as a teacher who talked at the level of the listener, so he made many contradictory seeming statements about the nature of enlightenment depending on if he was addressing farmers who'd never seen a prince before or his closest disciples. Many, many, many more monks have since added their own insights to the practice in a similar fashion, following the Buddha's example of talking at a level the audience can understand. So ultimately the proof of the teaching is in the enlightenment of those who practice it diligently, not the dogma of the particular school.


"Seem to work" isn't sceintific.

Adding their own insights to something that can never be proven isn't scientific.

The enlightenment can't be proven, it isn't scientific.

I have met many peopel who have very content lives and are at peace beacuse they have fully committed themselves to Jesus (not the gay are bad types, but theose that work for others, lover their neighnor,etc).  That "seems to work" for them.  Many people through the course of christian history have added their insight to their religion.  Would you describe that as "sceintific"?

doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found


That sounds real scientific.
 
2013-02-12 08:50:47 AM

liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.


andrewnewberg.com

Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.
 
2013-02-12 09:02:32 AM

Bad_Seed: studies involving shoving monks


filmjournal.net
Every monk who is a monk, punch a monk who isn't a monk!
 
2013-02-12 09:10:42 AM

Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.

[andrewnewberg.com image 380x307]

Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.


The next few years will involve shoving scanners into monks


/sorry monks
//Breathe it out
 
2013-02-12 09:15:44 AM

Rufus Lee King: Being Jewish, I usually meditate upon metaphonical Cohens.


*snert*

/ugh I got yogurt on my monitor
 
2013-02-12 09:18:35 AM
Now excuse me while I yang my yin.
 
2013-02-12 09:19:51 AM

liam76: If it require enlightenment it isn't sceintific.


And you see, this is the level of discourse you're bringing to me telling you about Buddhism. I'm just explaining things to you as they are going to be presented. I'm just like an R2 unit showing a holographic projection of the battle plan, and already you've blundered magnificently, typos aside, and all but run up the white flag. The the science =(read: is limited to) physics fallacy here is frankly just astounding. Have you never heard of any other branches?

And Buddhist philosophy? That's no moon. If you wanna come against something like that, you have got to come correct and quite frankly even then you're probably going to be sent away realizing you've been mostly Buddhist all along. There's no ventilation shafts.

I won't even address your other nit-picking because it's all predicated on this fallacy that you've got going in your head. I suggest you cool yourself and school yourself with the following Link  to familiarize yourself with the various branches of science.
 
2013-02-12 09:33:24 AM

doglover: liam76: If it require enlightenment it isn't sceintific.

And you see, this is the level of discourse you're bringing to me telling you about Buddhism. I'm just explaining things to you as they are going to be presented. I'm just like an R2 unit showing a holographic projection of the battle plan, and already you've blundered magnificently, typos aside, and all but run up the white flag. The the science =(read: is limited to) physics fallacy here is frankly just astounding. Have you never heard of any other branches?

And Buddhist philosophy? That's no moon. If you wanna come against something like that, you have got to come correct and quite frankly even then you're probably going to be sent away realizing you've been mostly Buddhist all along. There's no ventilation shafts.

I won't even address your other nit-picking because it's all predicated on this fallacy that you've got going in your head. I suggest you cool yourself and school yourself with the following Link  to familiarize yourself with the various branches of science.


You do realize you brought up physics, not me, right? I didn't want to get off topic by pointing out your mistake. But I see by you harping on that, spelling, and not addressing my points you have no actual response.
 
2013-02-12 09:40:07 AM

Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.



Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.


Neat, not unfamiliar to me, and completely irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the brain isn't going to experience different thing while meditating, sleeping, on drugs etc.

I am pointing out that if you can only 'grasp' things in that state it isn't scientific.
 
2013-02-12 09:41:56 AM
Pretty sure I read this years ago in CANDY...
 
2013-02-12 09:45:12 AM
When you put enlightenment into words you take it away from its actual meaning.
 
2013-02-12 09:48:49 AM

liam76: Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.



Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.

Neat, not unfamiliar to me, and completely irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the brain isn't going to experience different thing while meditating, sleeping, on drugs etc.

I am pointing out that if you can only 'grasp' things in that state it isn't scientific.


I am on my phone or I would try and find it myself but I seem to remember a study showing similarities between catholic and Buddhist monks brain scans while praying/meditating.
 
2013-02-12 09:51:36 AM

liam76: Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.

Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.

Neat, not unfamiliar to me, and completely irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the brain isn't going to experience different thing while meditating, sleeping, on drugs etc.

I am pointing out that if you can only 'grasp' things in that state it isn't scientific.


I don't see why not, if, at the moment that you 'grasped' them, you have necessarily entered into a state of consciousness that's different from the one we call normal.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of the "Buddhism is scientific" claim. Not because I think it's wrong, but because it usually ends up with people getting sidetracked with discussing a definition of "science".
 
2013-02-12 09:53:19 AM

Bad_Seed: because it usually ends up with people getting sidetracked with discussing a definition of "science".


And as we all know, defining things people may be confused about is bad...  I guess.
 
2013-02-12 09:56:06 AM

liam76: I am on my phone or I would try and find it myself but I seem to remember a study showing similarities between catholic and Buddhist monks brain scans while praying/meditating.


No doubt. There are forms of Christian prayer that are essentially types of meditation. They don't usually teach it to lay people though. (Though, in lots of Buddhist countries lay people don't really meditate either).
 
2013-02-12 09:57:06 AM

liam76: Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.

Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.

Neat, not unfamiliar to me, and completely irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the brain isn't going to experience different thing while meditating, sleeping, on drugs etc.

I am pointing out that if you can only 'grasp' things in that state it isn't scientific.


Why should enlightenment be scientific?

Everybody has their own path to enlightenment.
 
2013-02-12 10:01:44 AM

liam76: Bad_Seed: liam76: doglover: Wow, that's a novel. tl;dr Buddhism deals with complex ideas that cannot even be grasped fully in a normal conscious state and so in the beginning you must speak at the level of your audience, but practices are optimized and do change as better ones are found

That sounds real scientific.

Scientific enough for you? In the last few years there have been tons of studies involving shoving monks into brain scanners.

Neat, not unfamiliar to me, and completely irrelevant.

I am not arguing that the brain isn't going to experience different thing while meditating, sleeping, on drugs etc.

I am pointing out that if you can only 'grasp' things in that state it isn't scientific.


No, you're attempting to argue for the sake of argument.

Buddhism is a religion, not a physical science.

However, unlike other religions, Buddhism is alterable based on new input. It can be said that it follows the scientific method of observation, hypothesis, expirimentation, conclusion already as that's just formalized trial and error. Being a religion not a natural science, it has no overlap with physics or chemistry or any of those. However it intergrates seamlessly with psychology, sociology and things of that nature where areas of influence overlap. When a Buddhist idea is proven wrong by science or philisophy, Buddhist teachings change. It's happened before. It will hsppen again.

As for your asertion that an idea which is difficult to hold in your normal state of mind is without merit, see the heart sutra. It's a very simple idea you cannot hold fully in your mind outside of deep meditation at first. Try as you might, the waking mind just doesn't let you fully experience simultaneous emptiness and form as a single state of being.
 
2013-02-12 10:06:15 AM

doglover: However, unlike other religions, Buddhism is alterable based on new input. It can be said that it follows the scientific method of observation, hypothesis, expirimentation, conclusion already as that's just formalized trial and error. Being a religion not a natural science, it has no overlap with physics or chemistry or any of those. However it intergrates seamlessly with psychology, sociology and things of that nature where areas of influence overlap. When a Buddhist idea is proven wrong by science or philisophy, Buddhist teachings change. It's happened before. It will hsppen again.


While it is novel- and perhaps refreshing- to see religions that do not hold themselves to immutable dogma in the face of reason, failure to do so alone does not make an institution empirical in nature.
 
2013-02-12 10:47:43 AM

dready zim: Why should enlightenment be scientific?


I never said it should.

I am pointing out doglover is wrong to call Buddhism scientific.

doglover: No, you're attempting to argue for the sake of argument.


Fromt he guy who brought up physiscs and then bashed me for responding about physics, that is rich.


doglover: Buddhism is a religion, not a physical science.

However, unlike other religions, Buddhism is alterable based on new input. It can be said that it follows the scientific method of observation, hypothesis, expirimentation, conclusion already as that's just formalized trial and error.



What "expirament" can prove you have broken the cycle of re-birth, or reached enlightenment?  Hwo do you observe fi someone has done that?

Yes some forms of buddhism have changed with new ideas, but so has every religion.


doglover: When a Buddhist idea is proven wrong by science or philisophy, Buddhist teachings change. It's happened before. It will hsppen again.


Care to point out an example?

doglover: As for your asertion that an idea which is difficult to hold in your normal state of mind is without merit


Where did I say "without merit"?

Bad_Seed: I don't see why not, if, at the moment that you 'grasped' them, you have necessarily entered into a state of consciousness that's different from the one we call normal.


If something can only be grasped in an altered state of mind it isn't compatable with the scientific method.
 
2013-02-12 10:49:38 AM

liam76: If something can only be grasped in an altered state of mind it isn't compatable with the scientific method.


upload.wikimedia.org
/has a sad.
 
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