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(NPR)   Can you spot the gorilla in the x-ray? Not to worry, 83% of radiologists couldn't either   (npr.org) divider line 79
    More: Scary, radiologists, gorilla suits, gorilla suit, gorillas  
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14389 clicks; posted to Geek » on 11 Feb 2013 at 4:11 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-11 07:57:37 PM

djscram: Turns out ADD people are far more likely to see it. Also, squirrels.


imageshack.us
 
2013-02-11 08:05:14 PM
Damn that was a weird double post. I tried submitting the comment once and it refused to load. I opened the window in another screen, refreshed the comments, and the comment wasn't there. So, I closed the original window and tried again. Twenty minutes later, my original comment appears. That's why I quoted somebody from further up the thread the second time: I had tried making that comment first. :-/
 
2013-02-11 08:17:35 PM

JohnBigBootay: This is why sleepy people and phone in the car people pull out in front of cyclists and motorcycles all the time - their brain is saying, "Is a car coming?, No, ok then, proceed.' Then they pull right out in front of the non-car object despite looking right at it. I would not at all be surprised if sleepy or otherwise distracted driving kills as many people as drunk drivers.


Whoa.  I actually came in make this same observation.

\often a pedestrian
\\drivers just don't seem to notice us peds, even when we're crossing the street in broad daylight in a designated crosswalk with permission to cross.
 
2013-02-11 09:34:45 PM

JohnBigBootay: Those are just dick cyclists.


As a pedestrian I've been put in danger from a car perhaps three or four times in my life while doing something legal like crossing a street while the walk sign is up.  I've been nearly run down by cyclists not paying attention three times and actually had one collide with me once in the last _month_.  And that's without getting into their interactions with non-foot traffic, had a major wreck with a totaled car caused by one blowing a light outside my apartment a couple months ago.  Didn't hurt the cyclist, of course, note that the actual drunk driver never dies in DUI accidents either.

I think he may have a point about cyclists typically being more of a traffic hazard than motorists is what I'm getting at here.

//Should probably require a license and insurance for using bikes on public roads, honestly.
 
2013-02-11 10:09:26 PM
Fun fact: I used to have a tooth in my maxillary sinus and no less than five doctors and dentists missed it over three years' worth of scans and x-rays. The dentist who finally did spot it facepalmed for about two hours straight.
 
2013-02-11 10:38:48 PM

djscram: I saw the gorilla the first time I watched the video. Turns out ADD people are far more likely to see it. Also, squirrels.


Fer realz?
 
2013-02-11 10:43:49 PM

MrEricSir: Obligatory


That was posted in the article.  Which I'm assuming you didn't read.
 
2013-02-11 11:01:38 PM
"Well, Mr. Mibney, we've analyzed your lung scans, and we have good news and bad news. The good news is, it isn't cancer..."
 
2013-02-11 11:16:49 PM

meanmutton: ITGreen: AdolfOliverPanties: My god, you've got monkey brain!

Not often to be found in Washington, DC

Is that what we ate?


MRS. PEACOCK WAS A MAN?!
 
2013-02-11 11:29:59 PM
Actually, the radiologist  should see the gorilla. They were told to review the scans for the presence of lung nodules. The gorilla obscures a portion of the lung field, so the radiologists that didn't see it failed to completely evaluate the lungs.
 
2013-02-11 11:41:32 PM

jack21221: Embden.Meyerhof: If there was a disease which caused gorillas to grow inside my body, I'd bet the radiologists would find it in their pictures.

Since there isn't such a disease, I'm not concerned about it.

You should be concerned.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15995100

Here is a case study where a guidewire was left in a patient, and despite being clearly visible on three x-rays and a CT scan, every doctor missed it. I first heard about that case study in  The Invisible Gorilla by Chabris and Simons. It's an excellent book. The problem is not gorillas. The problem is missing things that you're not specifically looking for.


The thing that my mind questions is how can you miss it if you are looking all over the X-ray for something that's causing symptoms? I read the headline, immediately looked at the X-ray and tried to figure out what it was and what was the "gorilla." (I assumed "gorilla" was a metaphor, not an actual gorilla.) It took me a couple seconds to scan from the left side to right and see it.

Yet another reason to get more doctors into the medical sector and relieve the caseload already on doctors as it is.
 
2013-02-12 12:17:00 AM

JohnAnnArbor: JohnBigBootay: This is why sleepy people and phone in the car people pull out in front of cyclists and motorcycles all the time - their brain is saying, "Is a car coming?, No, ok then, proceed.' Then they pull right out in front of the non-car object despite looking right at it. I would not at all be surprised if sleepy or otherwise distracted driving kills as many people as drunk drivers.

What accounts for cyclists blowing stop signs, causing cross-traffic to jam on their brakes?


The fact that cyclists can only see what they want to see.
 
2013-02-12 12:55:54 AM

Stibium: The thing that my mind questions is how can you miss it if you are looking all over the X-ray for something that's causing symptoms? I read the headline, immediately looked at the X-ray and tried to figure out what it was and what was the "gorilla." (I assumed "gorilla" was a metaphor, not an actual gorilla.) It took me a couple seconds to scan from the left side to right and see it.


Because it wasn't one image.  The 'x-ray' in question was actually a CT stack (about 250 images) and five frames in the stack had the gorilla at various levels of transparency.

If radiologists scanned across each and every image in detail, your CT would never get read.  They are rapidly moving back and forth between frames to scan for very specific kinds of abnormalities.  The gorilla looks nothing like the abnormalities they are trying to find, which is why they get inattention blindness.  That's not always a bad thing - if they didn't lock their focus in on the specific patterns they are seeking, they might become better at seeing prank gorilla images but worse at actually finding lung cancer.
 
2013-02-12 12:58:51 AM
Meh, if I'm told to look for a tumor that's typically in the middle I won't even scan the outside. darker areas for a different dark shape.  If I'm looking for a cracked rib before I see any real detail I've already located the rib in question and am examining it, everything else is background noise.  To stand out when I've got a goal in front of me it's got to be contrasted enough to stand out even within the less capable peripheral vision.

This "study" may have that flaw...

If I ask you to enter a room that you've never been in before and tell me what color the ceiling is, but when you walk out and I ask you what color the carpet was instead, you'll be pissed that I wasted your time.

It's not that you couldn't tell, it's that you did not care.  An interior decorator may have noticed, or someone who happens to walk while looking down, etc.
Now, if there was a strobe light and you had other tasks to perform, maybe you noticed and even noted it at the moment, "hey, nice carpet", but returned to your task and because it wasn't actually memorable for any real special reason, you promplty flagged it as unimportant and more or less forgotten.

We see and process so much information all of the time we make a lot of calls on priority on the fly.

This is how vision works.  We see and recognize(in detail) only what we're focused on, in a physical sense as well as a mental sense.  Magicians have taken advantage of this for years and years, it is not news.

This is why women pull out the "What color are my eyes?" trick when they're trying to pick a fight.  We don't focus on the eyes themselves, but use them as a center of reference for facial recognition and reading emotions and such. Well, when we can tear our eyes off of their breasts that is.
Also, unless special attempts are made(or the longshot notable memory where you get that odd dreamy "just happened to notice" vibe.(IE people have an accident of one sort or another and seem to have an increased span of memory due to the adrenaline rush or whatever, in this case it's an associative thing a more profound of  "You don't know the date Gramma died?  Cretin!...I know it was Jan 15th! It happened on my birthday after we had cake"), we are not likely to remember such a small detail of color.  Can't see it across the room, nor is it valuable information in the sense of communication. Add to that that eye color can drift and appear different in different lights, it's more of an longshot anyone should remember eye color on the spur of the moment.

As a challenge, try to visualize your eye color right now without looking in a mirror. The look of your facial hair if you were up close to a mirror, any particularly long or unruly hair in your beard/eyebrows/etc?  Any achne today?  Do you need to trim your nosehair?  Grey hairs?
As above, if you haven't specifically noted these things, it's likely you have no idea at the moment, sure, you could wager an educated guess(rarely have zits so...) but that's not the same as actually knowing.

Jesus, if anyone should KNOW these answers it should be YOU!

It's akin to being challenged to prove you saw The Bucket List...by answering this question:
How many moles does Morgan Freeman have on his face?
 
2013-02-12 02:27:39 AM
There was a show a while back on TV here in Aus called Unbelievable, and one episode dealt with this, and its implications in the field of Magic.

Here's their take on the Invisible Gorilla.  It's 2 and a bit minutes, but trust me, it's worth it.
 
2013-02-12 02:53:18 AM

StreetlightInTheGhetto: miniflea: Great Janitor: I read the article, then I watched the video, knowing full well what was going to happen.  Interestingly enough, I counted correctly the number of passes.  Even saw the gorilla walk through.  I did notice, not the suit, but just a man wearing black and that he walked in from one direction and out the other.  It wasn't until the replay that I saw that he actually stopped and pounded his chest before moving on.

The first time I saw that video I didn't know about the gorilla and received the standard instruction to count the passes.  Though I thought to myself that something else must be going on, I am mildly embarrassed to admit that I did not notice the gorilla at all.

Most people don't. Radiologists or otherwise.

I saw a really good documentary about this that included Apollo Robbins as well as the Unseen Gorilla Researcher Guy I Forget Your Name.  ...

Found it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyeLF_a2iW0

GREAT documentary, especially if you're currently pissed you didn't see the damn thing.  It's more than likely not you.  Just, you know, the way your brain works.  I knew about the Unseen Gorilla Research, the SO didn't, and even though I did significantly better than he did, there were some tests I completely totally failed at... and I *knew* I was being tricked somehow.

/shrug
//like I said, it's a good watch



With this clip you can test if you make a good crime scene investigator. No gorillas, though.
 
2013-02-12 02:54:29 AM
I did not see it because I was excited and intrigued about seeing a ct scan of the lungs of a gorilla. I was thinking like, Did he smoke? Why are we looking at a gorilla's lungs? (I bet he has big ones.)

Gotta gorilla for sale, Magilla Gorilla for sale.
 
2013-02-12 03:24:10 AM

JohnBigBootay: This is why sleepy people and phone in the car people pull out in front of cyclists and motorcycles all the time - their brain is saying, "Is a car coming?, No, ok then, proceed.' Then they pull right out in front of the non-car object despite looking right at it. I would not at all be surprised if sleepy or otherwise distracted driving kills as many people as drunk drivers.


They aren't sleepy or phone-obsessed. They just have a disdain for two-wheelers, just like everyone else who isn't a two-wheeler.
 
2013-02-12 10:24:32 AM

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I did not see it because I was excited and intrigued about seeing a ct scan of the lungs of a gorilla.


I went in assuming that 83% of radiologists didn't realize that wasn't a human body part. I think I prefer them missing the gorilla photo than not noticing it's from the wrong species.
 
2013-02-12 10:30:53 AM
So the conclusion I should make is that I cannot see something unless I already know I am seeing it. Groundbreaking work there, Sherlock.
 
2013-02-12 10:43:19 AM
Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "
 
2013-02-12 10:54:30 AM
Literally.
 
2013-02-12 04:27:58 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "


Naturally, you're completely immune from this problem.
 
2013-02-13 04:00:49 AM

Yakivegas: Actually, the radiologist  should see the gorilla. They were told to review the scans for the presence of lung nodules. The gorilla obscures a portion of the lung field, so the radiologists that didn't see it failed to completely evaluate the lungs.


You are technically correct,  The best kind of correct
-Bureaucrat
 
2013-02-13 04:01:53 AM
Bureaucrat 1.0
 
2013-02-13 09:44:32 AM

lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "

Naturally, you're completely immune from this problem.


Not completely, but I've been aware of it for years, and have trained myself to always try and think outside my particular set of boxes.
 
2013-02-13 04:07:16 PM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "

Naturally, you're completely immune from this problem.

Not completely, but I've been aware of it for years, and have trained myself to always try and think outside my particular set of boxes.


Ahh, but you've just built yourself a bigger box.  You must learn that there is no box, grasshopper.
 
2013-02-14 01:28:35 AM

lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "

Naturally, you're completely immune from this problem.

Not completely, but I've been aware of it for years, and have trained myself to always try and think outside my particular set of boxes.

Ahh, but you've just built yourself a bigger box.  You must learn that there is no box, grasshopper.


Oh my. The phony Eastern Master response. Ah, but two can play.

>>>>Ahh, but you've just built yourself a bigger box.  You must learn that there is no box, grasshopper.

Oh Learned One, it saddens me to realize that your belief that there is no Box is, in itself, a Box. To be truly free and wise, one must cast aside Belief. But even that statement is a Box. Wisdom is understanding that there is no Wisdom. There is no Understanding. There is nothing. Which isn't. Now do you grok, grasshopper? Selah.
 
2013-02-14 01:45:32 AM

Just Another OC Homeless Guy: lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: lewismarktwo: Just Another OC Homeless Guy: Key point for Fark:

"In other words, what we're thinking about - what we're focused on - filters the world around us so aggressively that it literally shapes what we see. "

Naturally, you're completely immune from this problem.

Not completely, but I've been aware of it for years, and have trained myself to always try and think outside my particular set of boxes.

Ahh, but you've just built yourself a bigger box.  You must learn that there is no box, grasshopper.

Oh my. The phony Eastern Master response. Ah, but two can play.

>>>>Ahh, but you've just built yourself a bigger box.  You must learn that there is no box, grasshopper.

Oh Learned One, it saddens me to realize that your belief that there is no Box is, in itself, a Box. To be truly free and wise, one must cast aside Belief. But even that statement is a Box. Wisdom is understanding that there is no Wisdom. There is no Understanding. There is nothing. Which isn't. Now do you grok, grasshopper? Selah.


It's boxes all the way down.
 
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