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(National Review)   Retiring Senator under fire because he relaxed job-killing FDA regulations and placed ideological beliefs over hard science   (nationalreview.com ) divider line
    More: Ironic, FDA, medical organizations, Education Act, evidence-based medicine, childhood disease, alternative medicines, National Alliance, National Institute of Mental Health  
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3446 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Feb 2013 at 2:29 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-11 01:35:12 PM  
FTFA:Harkin also helped craft the 1994 Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act, which effectively allows companies to sell herbal remedies as dietary supplements, putting the burden on the FDA to prove a product unsafe rather than on the manufacturer to prove it safe.

One of the ones responsible for the abomination known as the DSHEA?

Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.
 
2013-02-11 02:04:13 PM  

BronyMedic: Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.


Hangin's too good for 'im.
 
2013-02-11 02:06:53 PM  
wait... NRO is complaining that a senator relaxed regulations?

oh, he's a democrat. party before country. never mind.
 
2013-02-11 02:09:41 PM  

FlashHarry: wait... NRO is complaining that a senator relaxed regulations?

oh, he's a democrat. party before country. never mind.


Even ignoring his party leanings, the fact that he helped pass the DSHEA is enough to criticize him harshly over. It effectively de-fanged the FDA's ability to deal with and regulate the dietary supplement market, and allowed the "Quack Miranda Warning" (This product has not been evaluated by the FDA) to allow people to shadily market anything for anything.
 
2013-02-11 02:13:12 PM  
the use of magnets to relieve chronic pain

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.comI
 
2013-02-11 02:23:39 PM  
But what about "Smilin' Bob"? If it weren't for Harkin, we probably wouldn't have had Enzyte commercials.
 
2013-02-11 02:34:17 PM  
Well, this guy is running for the Senate next election.  With any luck he'll end up with the kind of authority Harkin had, so the NRO can feel better about who is looking out for the interests of science.

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

"Evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory [are] lies straight from the pit of hell."
 
2013-02-11 02:37:02 PM  
In before the "You FarkLibs are defending your party tooth-and-nail despite no actual evidence to suggest that!" crowd.
 
2013-02-11 02:40:33 PM  
RIP HARD SCIENCE

prescriptionaccess.org
 
2013-02-11 02:41:42 PM  
After reading the article, I can definitively say that I will never vote for this man.
 
2013-02-11 02:41:52 PM  

abb3w: BronyMedic: Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.

Hangin's too good for 'im.


Thanks to him we're not burdened with any requirement to prove that hanging is safe. Instead, he has to prove that it's unsafe. In the meantime.... git a rope.
 
2013-02-11 02:45:10 PM  
People. This is a National Review article.

theblackberryalarmclock.com

It's not just a logo. It's a warning label.
 
2013-02-11 02:45:20 PM  
"job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!
 
2013-02-11 02:49:33 PM  

TV's Vinnie: People. This is a National Review article.

[theblackberryalarmclock.com image 184x102]

It's not just a logo. It's a warning label.


True, but to be fair, Complementary and Alternative Medicine quacks are far worse than the NRO.
 
2013-02-11 02:50:02 PM  

BronyMedic: FlashHarry: wait... NRO is complaining that a senator relaxed regulations?

oh, he's a democrat. party before country. never mind.

Even ignoring his party leanings, the fact that he helped pass the DSHEA is enough to criticize him harshly over. It effectively de-fanged the FDA's ability to deal with and regulate the dietary supplement market, and allowed the "Quack Miranda Warning" (This product has not been evaluated by the FDA) to allow people to shadily market anything for anything.


As someone who used to work at an organic food coop, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

I also can't disagree with a thing you said here but it's sad that this is coming from the NRO, who will only call out Harkin's shenanigans due to the D at the end of his name. All the R's who helped Harkin pass this POS get a free pass as they're on "the team".
 
2013-02-11 02:51:40 PM  

Crotchrocket Slim: I also can't disagree with a thing you said here but it's sad that this is coming from the NRO, who will only call out Harkin's shenanigans due to the D at the end of his name. All the R's who helped Harkin pass this POS get a free pass as they're on "the team".


The fact that the NRO is quoting David Gorski, one of the most libbiest libs out there - known as the Blogger Orac of Respectful Insolence - was a meta moment for me.
 
2013-02-11 02:53:05 PM  
Scientific method is just a theory. One that has been disproven repeatedly over the centuries.
 
2013-02-11 03:02:06 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Scientific method is just a theory. One that has been disproven repeatedly over the centuries.


static.rcgroups.net
 
2013-02-11 03:02:46 PM  
Do you ever read these types of articles, and you start to read it as if it were Charlie Brown's teacher?

Sometimes the waah wah waaah devolves in the derp derp deeerp.
 
2013-02-11 03:04:28 PM  

Wooly Bully: "job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!


Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

"Sorry, Bob, we're gonna have to let you go - turns out the FDA won't let us put arsenic in milk anymore."
 
2013-02-11 03:09:50 PM  

BronyMedic: FlashHarry: wait... NRO is complaining that a senator relaxed regulations?

oh, he's a democrat. party before country. never mind.

Even ignoring his party leanings, the fact that he helped pass the DSHEA is enough to criticize him harshly over. It effectively de-fanged the FDA's ability to deal with and regulate the dietary supplement market, and allowed the "Quack Miranda Warning" (This product has not been evaluated by the FDA) to allow people to shadily market anything for anything.


Yes, but how does that jibe with all the "rugged individualists" who argue that the FDA should be de-fanged as much as possible?
 
2013-02-11 03:09:54 PM  

BronyMedic: Crotchrocket Slim: I also can't disagree with a thing you said here but it's sad that this is coming from the NRO, who will only call out Harkin's shenanigans due to the D at the end of his name. All the R's who helped Harkin pass this POS get a free pass as they're on "the team".

The fact that the NRO is quoting David Gorski, one of the most libbiest libs out there - known as the Blogger Orac of Respectful Insolence - was a meta moment for me.



Years ago I used to read NRO. Believe it or not, I think they actually used to largely be ideologues. At some point though they divided by zero and became pretty much caricatures of themselves. Now they are 100% transparent shills for the Republican party - look closely and you can almost see Reince Priebus working them like a puppet whenever they speak.

There is no depth that they won't sink to in order to shill for the Republilican party. They'll quote anyone today and spew vitriol at them tomorrow and hope you don't notice, cherry pick, lie... I think it's sad, really. I don't think that's quite what Bill Buckley had in mind.
 
2013-02-11 03:10:32 PM  

El Pachuco: Wooly Bully: "job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!

Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

"Sorry, Bob, we're gonna have to let you go - turns out the FDA won't let us put arsenic in milk anymore."


Hah. I guess some FDA regulations have killed undertaker jobs, so the derpers have a point there. Won't someone think of the undertakers?
 
2013-02-11 03:15:04 PM  

Wooly Bully: El Pachuco: Wooly Bully: "job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!

Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

"Sorry, Bob, we're gonna have to let you go - turns out the FDA won't let us put arsenic in milk anymore."

Hah. I guess some FDA regulations have killed undertaker jobs, so the derpers have a point there. Won't someone think of the undertakers?


www.wwe.com

// I guess he's pissed the FDA won't let him "self-enhance" anymore...
 
2013-02-11 03:17:07 PM  

El Pachuco: Wooly Bully: "job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!

Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

"Sorry, Bob, we're gonna have to let you go - turns out the FDA won't let us put arsenic in milk anymore."


It's amazing to me what some contractors, architects, and engineers try to get away with.

/Engineer
//My father was a plans examiner.
///His job description, per his own words:  "I'm the asshole that tells you that you can't build the building you want on the land you own".
////He's a member of the Tea Party, and is extremely against building depts now that they aren't paying him.
 
2013-02-11 03:19:52 PM  

abb3w: BronyMedic: Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.

Hangin's too good for 'im.


Burnin's too good for im.
 
2013-02-11 03:20:55 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Scientific method is just a theory. One that has been disproven repeatedly over the centuries.


bwahahahahahahaha *takes breath* bwahahahahahahahaha

/ok, back to "ignore."
 
2013-02-11 03:23:20 PM  

BSABSVR: TV's Vinnie: People. This is a National Review article.

[theblackberryalarmclock.com image 184x102]

It's not just a logo. It's a warning label.

True, but to be fair, Complementary and Alternative Medicine quacks are far worse than the NRO.


Just because they say Harkin is associated with these quacks doesn't mean he really is.
 
2013-02-11 03:23:46 PM  

El Pachuco: Wooly Bully: "job-killing FDA regulations"

Drink!

Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

"Sorry, Bob, we're gonna have to let you go - turns out the FDA won't let us put arsenic in milk anymore."


Don't say that near my boss.  He thinks building codes are put in place specifically to piss him off.

Him: "Why do I have to follow fire regs?  I got no neighbors - if it burns down, I'm the only one it hurts"
Me: "Remember when that furniture building caught fire at the town square, and ended up gutting the entire block, along with taking out seven firefighters?  That's what they're trying to prevent.  Plus, they'd be a little bit more lenient if you hadn't waited until you tried to occupy a new 40,000 square foot building before you applied for the building permit."

He's a built his own planes too, so he isn't too happy with having to follow someone else's rules on that either, even though his stuff is classified as experimental and therefore mostly exempt.  But after he crashed once or twice he started to see the wisdom of learning from other people's mistakes.
 
2013-02-11 03:24:20 PM  

El Pachuco: Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.


You'd be suprised. Everyone, from the Republicans, to the Democrats, to the Libertarians want to defund and get rid of the FDA, demonstrating they failed history over and over again.

The Libertarian Argument usually goes that people should have a right to choose anything they put in their bodies, and the Government has no place preventing unsafe or dangerous drugs from being in the hands of Americans.

The Far Right/Republican Argument is usually something about unnecessary Government oversight, and the typical Capitalistic "Free Market Self Regulation" bullshiat.

The Far Left/Democratic Argument is that the FDA is a corrupt entity owned by the drug companies to suppress cures from being released to the public, and to protect the bottom line of big pharma.
 
2013-02-11 03:25:45 PM  
Hmm, perhaps one level of sarcasm too far for this crowd
 
2013-02-11 03:26:32 PM  

TV's Vinnie: Just because they say Harkin is associated with these quacks doesn't mean he really is.


Uh, no. Harkin has long been associated with the Alternative Medicine and Dietery Supplement industry. In fact,he's often been known as their biggest lobbying ally in the Federal Government.

It's just aggravating that it's just now he's being called out over it, and not because of his actions but because of the affiliation letter behind his name.
 
2013-02-11 03:32:45 PM  

BronyMedic: El Pachuco: Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

You'd be suprised. Everyone, from the Republicans, to the Democrats, to the Libertarians want to defund and get rid of the FDA, demonstrating they failed history over and over again.

The Libertarian Argument usually goes that people should have a right to choose anything they put in their bodies, and the Government has no place preventing unsafe or dangerous drugs from being in the hands of Americans.

The Far Right/Republican Argument is usually something about unnecessary Government oversight, and the typical Capitalistic "Free Market Self Regulation" bullshiat.

The Far Left/Democratic Argument is that the FDA is a corrupt entity owned by the drug companies to suppress cures from being released to the public, and to protect the bottom line of big pharma.


There's kind of a big difference between choosing what you put in your own body (which I agree with) and putting something in your own body that's not what it claims to be because the manufacturer was allowed to cut corners in production or flat out lie in ads and on packaging.  I'm not willing to let the Free Market (PBUI) decide how much melamine is acceptable in my dogs' food.

"The Far Left" isn't the only (imaginary) group who has a problem with regulatory capture, such as the FDA cozying up to pharmaceutical companies.  Real groups and people all across the spectrum have expressed concerns about this.
 
2013-02-11 03:32:58 PM  

BSABSVR: True, but to be fair, Complementary and Alternative Medicine quacks are far worse than the NRO.


From what I can tell about the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, it's for scientific research into alternative medicine. Rather than dismissing it all out of hand, NCCAM checks it out and either finds it a complete waste of time, or finds what is useful about it. For example, they might find that meditation lowers blood pressure.
 
2013-02-11 03:37:45 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Hmm, perhaps one level of sarcasm too far for this crowd


Poe's law came into play on that.  I was notsureifserious.jpg

9/10
 
2013-02-11 03:38:52 PM  

Krieghund: From what I can tell about the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, it's for scientific research into alternative medicine. Rather than dismissing it all out of hand, NCCAM checks it out and either finds it a complete waste of time, or finds what is useful about it. For example, they might find that meditation lowers blood pressure.


The problem is that they are a waste of money that could otherwise be shunted to actual research. Nothing they have investigated in the field of alternative medicine has been vetted. In reality, many of their research studies have to be shut down, because they start dropping like flies - like their Gerson Therapy experiment.

Lochsteppe: There's kind of a big difference between choosing what you put in your own body (which I agree with) and putting something in your own body that's not what it claims to be because the manufacturer was allowed to cut corners in production or flat out lie in ads and on packaging.  I'm not willing to let the Free Market (PBUI) decide how much melamine is acceptable in my dogs' food.

"The Far Left" isn't the only (imaginary) group who has a problem with regulatory capture, such as the FDA cozying up to pharmaceutical companies.  Real groups and people all across the spectrum have expressed concerns about this.


The "Far Left" is not an imaginary group in the United States. And I'm not talking about regulatory capture, which is a real problem. I'm talking about people who promote inane and nonsensical conspiracy theories about Big Pharma and the FDA.
 
2013-02-11 03:46:38 PM  

Ninepoundhammer: Lost Thought 00: Hmm, perhaps one level of sarcasm too far for this crowd

Poe's law came into play on that.  I was notsureifserious.jpg

9/10


I was going for a circular "how can you disprove scientific method without the scientific method", but obviously if you have to explain it...
 
2013-02-11 03:48:13 PM  

Lost Thought 00: Hmm, perhaps one level of sarcasm too far for this crowd



Well, there's a reason for that.
 
2013-02-11 03:52:45 PM  
Playing favorites with scientific funding (D) is better than not believing in it (R)
 
2013-02-11 03:57:06 PM  

Krieghund: BSABSVR: True, but to be fair, Complementary and Alternative Medicine quacks are far worse than the NRO.

From what I can tell about the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, it's for scientific research into alternative medicine. Rather than dismissing it all out of hand, NCCAM checks it out and either finds it a complete waste of time, or finds what is useful about it. For example, they might find that meditation lowers blood pressure.


Wasn't there a story here last week about the Marine Corps Commandant getting all pissy because his Marines were doing yoga?

I used to work with military CAM researchers. Anyone dismissing the whole field out-of-hand as quackery or whatever should find some solid peer-reviewed research (or some of the stuff the military's funded) first. (At the risk of getting all pariah-y, CAM on fark is like circumcision, guns, 'bortion, and religion - might make for a good thread, but no one learns anything, and the next one looks identical.)

Chakras and special stones this ain't.
 
2013-02-11 04:01:47 PM  

Dr Dreidel: Wasn't there a story here last week about the Marine Corps Commandant getting all pissy because his Marines were doing yoga?

I used to work with military CAM researchers. Anyone dismissing the whole field out-of-hand as quackery or whatever should find some solid peer-reviewed research (or some of the stuff the military's funded) first. (At the risk of getting all pariah-y, CAM on fark is like circumcision, guns, 'bortion, and religion - might make for a good thread, but no one learns anything, and the next one looks identical.)

Chakras and special stones this ain't.


I'll respond to that with the standard question I ask every thread that the CAM is defended in.

Please, post a modality through CAM that has been vetted and not integrated into modern medicine as an evidence-based practice?
 
2013-02-11 04:03:57 PM  
Pretty much how any conversation about Alternative Medicine ends up:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2013-02-11 04:06:26 PM  

BronyMedic: The "Far Left" is not an imaginary group in the United States. And I'm not talking about regulatory capture, which is a real problem. I'm talking about people who promote inane and nonsensical conspiracy theories about Big Pharma and the FDA.


Granted, the people who promote inane and nonsensical conspiracy theories about Big Pharma and the FDA and are left-of-center, indeed appear to tend to be pretty far left. However, the limited empirical data I'm aware of show those make up a fraction of the political left approximately equal in magnitude to the fraction they make up on the political right.
 
2013-02-11 04:23:47 PM  
I realize its already been said, but I just wanted to say that, yes, DSHEA is an abomination and NCCAM is a well-meaning money pit.
 
2013-02-11 04:25:16 PM  

BronyMedic: Dr Dreidel: Wasn't there a story here last week about the Marine Corps Commandant getting all pissy because his Marines were doing yoga?

I used to work with military CAM researchers. Anyone dismissing the whole field out-of-hand as quackery or whatever should find some solid peer-reviewed research (or some of the stuff the military's funded) first. (At the risk of getting all pariah-y, CAM on fark is like circumcision, guns, 'bortion, and religion - might make for a good thread, but no one learns anything, and the next one looks identical.)

Chakras and special stones this ain't.

I'll respond to that with the standard question I ask every thread that the CAM is defended in.

Please, post a modality through CAM that has been vetted and not integrated into modern medicine as an evidence-based practice?


How about a reading list to get you started? (This is an Institute similar to the one I worked at, funded by DoD dollars and with all manner of statistical analyses lining the walls. Not proof of anything, but I also don't have links to the kind of research you're asking for at my beck-and-call. Nor would I know where to find it, though if you come back to this thread tomorrow, I'll try and find a more complete study to link.)

I do know that Samueli has a more fleshed-out Knowledge Center (or whatever they call it), but I've got real work to do.
 
2013-02-11 04:34:04 PM  

omelete: abb3w: BronyMedic: Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.

Hangin's too good for 'im.

Burnin's too good for im.


how about stuffing him full of "herbal remedies"?
 
2013-02-11 05:00:28 PM  

abb3w: BronyMedic: Get a rope, boys. Time for a good ol' fashion political hanging.

Hangin's too good for 'im.


4.bp.blogspot.com

Approves of a harsher punishment

/possibly dismemberment
//live burial?
 
2013-02-11 05:25:27 PM  

BronyMedic: El Pachuco: Along with building code enforcement and airliner design and maintenance, I can't think of any regulatory body more worthwhile than the FDA.

You'd be suprised. Everyone, from the Republicans, to the Democrats, to the Libertarians want to defund and get rid of the FDA, demonstrating they failed history over and over again.

The Libertarian Argument usually goes that people should have a right to choose anything they put in their bodies, and the Government has no place preventing unsafe or dangerous drugs from being in the hands of Americans.

The Far Right/Republican Argument is usually something about unnecessary Government oversight, and the typical Capitalistic "Free Market Self Regulation" bullshiat.

The Far Left/Democratic Argument is that the FDA is a corrupt entity owned by the drug companies to suppress cures from being released to the public, and to protect the bottom line of big pharma.


The first two I agree with the summary. As a pretty radical liberal, I disagree with your conclusion.

I think the solution to big drug companies cozying up with the FDA can be solved with a method similar to how I think the financial mess can be sorted out - eliminate the name and any identifying traits of a substance seeking approval. Instead of a brand name, it's a 13 digit identification number presented via barcode and the regulators don't know who made what number. As an added incentive to play nice, any company or individual attempting to influence results one way or another will have any in process or completed applications forwarded to the patent office for re-evaluation of patent exclusivity. In other words, more regulations and the threat of a financial kick in the nads would keep pharma companies at a safe distance.
 
2013-02-11 05:33:44 PM  

Snarcoleptic_Hoosier: I think the solution to big drug companies cozying up with the FDA can be solved with a method similar to how I think the financial mess can be sorted out - eliminate the name and any identifying traits of a substance seeking approval. Instead of a brand name, it's a 13 digit identification number presented via barcode and the regulators don't know who made what number. As an added incentive to play nice, any company or individual attempting to influence results one way or another will have any in process or completed applications forwarded to the patent office for re-evaluation of patent exclusivity. In other words, more regulations and the threat of a financial kick in the nads would keep pharma companies at a safe distance.


The FDA doesn't have anything to do with patents. It has to do with being able to market drugs to the public in the United States. Plenty of substances are patented by big pharma without the FDA ever approving them.
 
2013-02-11 05:45:23 PM  

TV's Vinnie: BSABSVR: TV's Vinnie: People. This is a National Review article.

[theblackberryalarmclock.com image 184x102]

It's not just a logo. It's a warning label.

True, but to be fair, Complementary and Alternative Medicine quacks are far worse than the NRO.

Just because they say Harkin is associated with these quacks doesn't mean he really is.


He's one of the main idiots behind the disgrace of an NIH institute national Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine.

"Oooh but what if 1/100000000 random things work?"

If there is evidence for it that makes gives it an a priori probability than let it compete with everything else, instead of giving it a kid gloves sandbox to piddle away at an already underfunded science budget.
 
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