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(WTOP)   Maryland discovers that they can increase the $afety generated by red light cameras if they expand the net a bit. Potential new customers: people who didn't run a red light, people who might have thought about running a red light   (wtop.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, Rockville, red light cameras, red lights, camera tickets, WTOP, Cameras Ticket  
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10991 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Feb 2013 at 12:35 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2013-02-11 01:11:11 PM  

curtis_e_bare: tallen702: curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.

Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


I'm guessing (if it's anything like around here) that it's not the act of making a right on a red that got her a ticket but because she didn't stop first.


Probably not actually. When I lived in Baltimore, the red light cameras would flash anytime you made a ROR, they'd just take a look at the picture and realize that you were making a turn and not, in fact, blowing through a stoplight. Most red light cameras work off a two-shot principle. They take the shot when the light turns red showing you behind the line, and then if someone trips the loop, it snaps a shot of that person in the intersection while the light is red. First one shows that the light had changed before you entered the intersection, second one shows that you didn't stop.

Rockville is a shiathole town. County gov't HQ is there, so it's full of bureaucratic retards who hate life anyway. Never mind the fact that they only care about the south county. (Rockville, Silver Spring, Potomac, etc). They don't give a damned about us upcounty residents for anything other than our taxes. I live 50 yards from the Fredneck county line, I wish they'd move it about 60 yards closer......
 
2013-02-11 01:14:55 PM  
I was going to side with that right-turn lady til i saw the video. Now I'm baffled she managed to void that ticket.
 
2013-02-11 01:15:34 PM  
I see the slippery slope has astroglide on it.
 
2013-02-11 01:16:53 PM  

Random Anonymous Blackmail: How much longer before the GPS chip is tapped into on your vehicle and you are just mailed a speeding ticket?


Do a Google search for the privacy issues associated with "black box" data recorders that are showing up in a lot of cars and may be mandatory very soon.
 
2013-02-11 01:19:01 PM  
However, Rockville police say it's about protecting pedestrians, bicyclists and others who use the crosswalk.

And this, this right here, is why police departments cannot be trusted.  This is about revenue.  It always has been.  It always will be.  That is the reason why every time discussion is raised to end one of these programs, loss of revenue is the first objection raised.  As long as police departments are filled with lying, disingenuous pieces of shiat, "justice" in this country will remain nothing but a farce.
 
2013-02-11 01:21:52 PM  
Just got a total bullshiat red light camera ticket from Maryland, so I'm getting a real kick...
 
2013-02-11 01:23:01 PM  
"I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP.

What the hell.. she didnt even get anywhere close to stopping.  Didnt compress her struts...nothing.
She looked just like she would have, if the light was green and she turned right.

She deserves the ticket.
 
2013-02-11 01:24:07 PM  

tallen702: curtis_e_bare: tallen702: curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.

Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


I'm guessing (if it's anything like around here) that it's not the act of making a right on a red that got her a ticket but because she didn't stop first.

Probably not actually. When I lived in Baltimore, the red light cameras would flash anytime you made a ROR, they'd just take a look at the picture and realize that you were making a turn and not, in fact, blowing through a stoplight. Most red light cameras work off a two-shot principle. They take the shot when the light turns red showing you behind the line, and then if someone trips the loop, it snaps a shot of that person in the intersection while the light is red. First one shows that the light had changed before you entered the intersection, second one shows that you didn't stop.

Rockville is a shiathole town. County gov't HQ is there, so it's full of bureaucratic retards who hate life anyway. Never mind the fact that they only care about the south county. (Rockville, Silver Spring, Potomac, etc). They don't give a damned about us upcounty residents for anything other than our taxes. I live 50 yards from the Fredneck county line, I wish they'd move it about 60 yards closer......



Nothing in TFA suggests this is the case. The discussion, and the included video, is about people running red lights but think it's OK because they are turning right while doing so. You stop at red lights, no exceptions (well, unless you are driving an emergency vehicle.) The entirety of TFA is people complaining because they are now getting caught, not because they think these traffic rules are unfair or because the technology doesn't correctly record when people run red lights. I'm certainly not taking the position the technology is infallible, but that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance. I'm sure if this was suspected it would be a major part of the article.
 
2013-02-11 01:25:01 PM  
 OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?



Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.
 
2013-02-11 01:26:13 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.
 
2013-02-11 01:29:38 PM  
Blowing through a ROR has become a pet peeve of mine, I have no problem with that part of the upgrade.
 
2013-02-11 01:29:52 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: "I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP.

What the hell.. she didnt even get anywhere close to stopping.  Didnt compress her struts...nothing.
She looked just like she would have, if the light was green and she turned right.

She deserves the ticket.


While I agree, and I agree everyone who runs a red light deserves a ticket, I'd have much preferred the cop sitting at the light when she made her turn issue the ticket instead of it being mailed to her.
 
2013-02-11 01:30:34 PM  

yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.


Around here, you can see the pedestrian timer at the same time you see the light.  That gives a good indicator for how long you have until it turns yellow.
 
2013-02-11 01:32:20 PM  

Happy Hours: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.  Things like going straight through a green lights (you must be saying "Those bastards!"). Tickets for people that did stop at the light then turned red (I see these lights go off all the time).  Of course you are such a good and perfect driver that you remember each and every single time you passed through each and every single intercection for the last three weeks. I am sure you know exactly what time you passed through each intersection, how fast you were going, and how many seconds that light was yellow before you passed through it. Because you are perfect aren't you.

So, when you get an automated ticket in the mail you can just consult your perfect little memory and recall the exact time and place you were cited.

However, for most of us average to below average people, we go through the exact same set of intersections 40-50 times a month.  I couldn't tell you what I had for lunch last Wednesday, I sure as heck can't tell you how fast I was going down 355 where the speed trap is that day.  If a policeman were to pull me over, that would put the event into a more permanent memory category.  But for a speed trap that doesn't even flash in the daytime? Never.

So you have a county that generates a known number of incorrect tickets, and we are absolutely certain that not a single incorrect one makes it past their quality check process.


But like you so smugly said "OMG, They're enforcing the law!!!"

Three smug exclamation points no less.
 
2013-02-11 01:35:02 PM  

IRQ12: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.


IRQ12: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.


I've heard of this book, but I find the title a little hard to believe. Perhaps if the summaries or reviews included an example of one of these felonies I might commit any day I might be tempted to read it.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.

I agree that they shouldn't be run for profit by private companies and I've read about abuses but I also believe they can be run fairly and running a red light is very dangerous.

If you want to make an argument that no stop should be required for ROR on a Sunday morning when there's no traffic, make that argument.

Based on my experiences with RLCs in my town, I think they're doing it right. Somehow I've never gotten a ticket because....wait for it....I stop when the light turns red.
 
2013-02-11 01:35:24 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


They don't need a yellow timer, there would be absolutely no point for it because there is never a time where you suddenly upon a yellow light but not the previous green light. The problem can be the time on the yellow overall. Thankfully the city I run through has 5ish second yellow lights (although the cameras are new). Its the ones that are set to 3.2 seconds whose administrators should be jailed for.
 
2013-02-11 01:36:03 PM  
So, does Maryland ever disable this camera or fix it? Nope. They started actually having a cop park at the corner of that street and I think he just notates when the camera flashes errantly and reports back.

That is because the camera is contracted out, but the department has to deal with all the complaints.
It is cheaper to have a cop sit there all year round than to pay the contractor to fix the camera, and/or deal with a ton of court appearances that cost more than the ticket value to process. Bonus, anyone that does not contest and just pays up, the city generally accepts and does not reject.
 
2013-02-11 01:37:48 PM  
Wow...so sad that THIS is how my hometown makes it onto Fark.

Stay classy, Rockvillians!
 
2013-02-11 01:38:48 PM  

Zimmy: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.

Around here, you can see the pedestrian timer at the same time you see the light.  That gives a good indicator for how long you have until it turns yellow.


I got that here too. But here, we got random yellow light timers. Some yellow lights stay yellow for a good 5+ seconds. Others are almost instant changes (1 to 2 seconds) which is barely enough time to actually register that yellow light change. So I know when the green light is about to change but never when the yellow to red will.
 
2013-02-11 01:39:45 PM  

digitalrain: Wow...so sad that THIS is how my hometown makes it onto Fark.

Stay classy, Rockvillians!


*pfft* You should be glad this is the only reason they made Fark... as far as we know.
 
2013-02-11 01:39:47 PM  

yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.


Never, ever, seen a yellow light countdown timer. Why bother? Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long. By the time you recognized what it was doing, the timer would be nearly over and changing to red anyway.

/got a ticket making a right turn on red, didn't stop
//motorcycle police was in the lane next to me when I did it
///just pulled over and waited on him
 
2013-02-11 01:43:38 PM  

Bendal: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.

Never, ever, seen a yellow light countdown timer. Why bother? Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long. By the time you recognized what it was doing, the timer would be nearly over and changing to red anyway.

/got a ticket making a right turn on red, didn't stop
//motorcycle police was in the lane next to me when I did it
///just pulled over and waited on him


I have seen some yellow light timers in small towns across the US when I was a kid. They were a nice touch. And some towns had the green turn signal go after the lights and not before it. Which to me, made sense to stop people from running the lights. Anyone can make a left turn when the intersection was clear and if you did not make it, you just caught the green arrow at the end of the light.
 
2013-02-11 01:43:50 PM  

Bendal: Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long.


Rule of thumb for yellow timing is 1 second per 10 miles per hour.  This gives enough time/distance to stop safely.  Most DOTs abide by this.

Anything less is for revenue generation.
 
2013-02-11 01:45:46 PM  

djones101: "A 2004 study from Texas A&M's Transportation Institute (2004) found that accidents from these turns are exceedingly rare and don't pose a serious traffic safety problem."

Yeah, except that it's not rare.


Hmmm. Study by Texas A&M Transportation Institute or djones101? I think I'll trust djones101.
 
2013-02-11 01:47:39 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.


That's not what the article says.

If that is the case, then the RLCs need to be fixed. There are people who anecdotally claim they were ticketed when the light was green but it's actually quite rare to see pictures of it so I'm a bit skeptical.

And I don't have to remember if I violated a red light because I simply don't do it.

I do speed, but not enough to get caught by speed cameras around here. You have to be going at least 10 over on a residential street to get one and I don't go that fast on residential streets. Not only that, there are signs before speed cameras.

At least around here, they've made an effort not to fark people over.
 
2013-02-11 01:48:30 PM  

tallen702: Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


Turning right on red without stopping is against the law in MD.  It's dangerous.  She should have been ticketed.

If that video is an example of what is wrong with red light cameras, I say we need more cameras just like it.

It's outrageous that the woman's ticket was voided.
 
2013-02-11 01:49:38 PM  

enik: Well then, I guess if you're stuck somewhere between yellow and red, don't bother slamming on your brakes to stop for the light. Because you're getting a ticket one way or the other.


You are either going too fast, or you were adjusting your radio while approaching the intersection.
Both are flogging offences.
 
2013-02-11 01:49:46 PM  
Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane. What they should do is put up a green arrow for turning right, but they won't do that. They should change the law to yield when turning right on red, because really, everyone rolls though. I don't think I've seen a car come to a full stop in a while. Just because "IT IS A LAW" is a bad reason to ticket, especially when the traffic system isn't designed in a way to expedite all traffic as quickly as possible.
 
2013-02-11 01:50:49 PM  

wildcardjack: Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?


Trust me on this, there is no way to prove they didn't send paperwork.  All they need to do is claim they did and you are FUBAR.

/lost a lawsuit because zero paperwork came to my house
//judge believed the other party's word they sent it
///both Judge Beiter of Ada County, Boise, Idaho and the other party are corrupt
 
2013-02-11 01:51:43 PM  

Happy Hours: Tricky Chicken: Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.

That's not what the article says.

If that is the case, then the RLCs need to be fixed. There are people who anecdotally claim they were ticketed when the light was green but it's actually quite rare to see pictures of it so I'm a bit skeptical.

And I don't have to remember if I violated a red light because I simply don't do it.

I do speed, but not enough to get caught by speed cameras around here. You have to be going at least 10 over on a residential street to get one and I don't go that fast on residential streets. Not only that, there are signs before speed cameras.

At least around here, they've made an effort not to fark people over.


I would not believe that too if I have not seen the RLC actually take multiple pictures during a green light while I sat there watching it. I once counted 3 different pictures being taken while the light was green. So three people got a ticket for doing nothing wrong.
 
2013-02-11 01:53:40 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: wildcardjack: Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?

Trust me on this, there is no way to prove they didn't send paperwork.  All they need to do is claim they did and you are FUBAR.

/lost a lawsuit because zero paperwork came to my house
//judge believed the other party's word they sent it
///both Judge Beiter of Ada County, Boise, Idaho and the other party are corrupt


Something like this needs to be certified mail to prove it made it there. That way, everyone is safe. Then again, judges usually side with the cops on everything.
 
2013-02-11 01:54:01 PM  

xanadian: xanadian: range

RAGE!  I meant to type RAGE!!! FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU


both words are equally appropriate in that sentence
 
2013-02-11 01:55:54 PM  

shaunmark: Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane.


No cars coming.  Nothing to worry about but pesky pedestrians getting caught in her wheel well.
 
2013-02-11 01:56:17 PM  

yves0010: Zimmy: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

I got that here too. But here, we got random yellow light timers. Some yellow lights stay yellow for a good 5+ seconds. Others are almost instant changes (1 to 2 seconds) which is barely enough time to actually register that yellow light change. So I know when the green light is about to change but never when the yellow to red will.


Well,  if you know when the green one is about to change, you should just start braking at that point.
Then you would never have to worry about a short yellow.
 
2013-02-11 01:57:33 PM  
Happy Hours: ....
Based on my experiences with RLCs in my town, I think they're doing it right. Somehow I've never gotten a ticket because....wait for it....I stop when the light turns red.

I think the majority of complaints is about the revenue generation/profit use of them.  In a lot of places that they use them (the ones you hear about for obvious reasons) they are tweaked to maximize profit, not safety.  Even in places where they have been shown to be useless or cause other safety issues (rear-endings).

That's probably why they simply throw out the tickets for people who complain in this case, they know the court costs will reduce the revenue even if the ticket is proper.

Law enforcement should address problems, not be waiting around every corner to catch normally law abiding citizens in a petty error.  The cop sitting at the bottom of a steep grade looking to catch grandma doing 9 over or the soccer mom rolling a right turn is doing nothing to improve traffic safety they're just making everyone jumpy, crappy drivers....ya know the ones that slow down to 20 under the limit when they see a cop on the freeway.
 
2013-02-11 02:03:43 PM  
Red light and speed cameras are supposed to be around to 'train' us to obey the law through the use of punishment.

It has been many years since I took any psychology classes, but I think this would fall into the realm of operant conditioning (probably totally wrong here).  I think that is the one where you perform an action and get a reward if it is good, or a punishment if it is bad.  I vaguely recall that the effectiveness of this conditioning is tied to the immediacy of the reward or punishment.  If you do not get a citation for 2-3 weeks after the event, the immediacy would likely be minimal.  If you speed and a policeman pulls you over, that is immediate punishment (the time and embarrassment of getting pulled over) followed by a later financial punishment.  But since you know that the financial punishment is coming, you feel it immediately.

If you get a mailed citation, it is quite possible that you will not even recall the exact infraction.  I would guess the conditioning value of this punishment schedule is negligible.

It would therefore only be about revenue.
 
2013-02-11 02:07:19 PM  
So THAT'S what Ron Ely is doing nowadays.  It's been a long time since his Tarzan days.
 
2013-02-11 02:10:25 PM  

haterade: she did run that light at a pretty good speed..


Red light cameras are bull$hiat. That said, that driver in the video deserved the ticket. That wasn't a California stop, that was blowing the light.
 
2013-02-11 02:12:34 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: enik: Well then, I guess if you're stuck somewhere between yellow and red, don't bother slamming on your brakes to stop for the light. Because you're getting a ticket one way or the other.

You are either going too fast, or you were adjusting your radio while approaching the intersection.
Both are flogging offences.


Or sometimes you are driving a multiple ton truck.  I've hit an orange light or two in a dovetail while working because I knew I was hauling too much weight to stop before the intersection.
 
2013-02-11 02:14:17 PM  

Tricky Chicken: that you will not even recall the exact infraction.


If that's the key to your theory I seriously doubt your theory and reality are the same thing.

You seem to be relying on the idea that you won't really know why you're being punished and so you won't understand the punishment and it will have no effect. Like a dog being punished hours after pooping on the floor.

Fortunately, human beings have language. It allows us to connect past and present in a meaningful way. It seems unlikely that wouldn't apply in this scenario.
 
2013-02-11 02:26:26 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


Increasing yellow signal timing reduces red light running and improves safety. But it has the side effect of making red light cameras unprofitable, so that won't happen (See, Georgia).
 
2013-02-11 02:34:06 PM  

shaunmark: Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane. What they should do is put up a green arrow for turning right, but they won't do that. They should change the law to yield when turning right on red, because really, everyone rolls though. I don't think I've seen a car come to a full stop in a while. Just because "IT IS A LAW" is a bad reason to ticket, especially when the traffic system isn't designed in a way to expedite all traffic as quickly as possible.


Heinrich von Eckardt: No cars coming. Nothing to worry about but pesky pedestrians getting caught in her wheel well.


I was coming in to say what shaunmark said.  Heinrich, there shouldn't be any pedestrians because of the advanced left turn, so, I still think her turn should be allowed and she was right to get the ticket dismissed.  They need to put up a right turn green when the perpendicular direction has their left turn arrows.  But they won't.

I must moved to this area and find the drivers to be really...  pensive/timid (for lack of better terms).  Slowing down to almost 30mph when a 35 mph speed camera is about to be passed, stopping for a full three seconds at 4-way stop signs even when no traffic is coming, taking a couple seconds to go when the light turns green.

It's really frustrating coming from LA, I hate driving here.  They're not concerned about keeping traffic moving, it's about not breaking any law$.  It makes everyone a bad driver and they'd be eaten alive in any other large city.  There are a A LOT of 'no right turn on red' signs here, where it makes no sense to have one.  I just never noticed those cameras before.  And placing speed cameras at the bottom of hills is total bullshiat.
 
2013-02-11 02:39:27 PM  
It is busting 'rolling stops' or 'rolling turns on red'?  Good, you should be stopping for the light and then proceeding...if you are rolling through the light you aren't looking for pedestrians.

/cry me a river
 
2013-02-11 02:42:16 PM  
How hard is it to stop BEFORE crossing the stop line?
 
2013-02-11 02:42:41 PM  
HEY! howsaboutwe don't break the law?
 
2013-02-11 02:43:40 PM  
I mean seriously folks, moneygrab or not, you're breaking the farking law.  Man up to it and try following the rules
 
2013-02-11 02:47:26 PM  
Having been hit by a driver doing a rolling right, I am finding this conversation hilarious. Hang 'em high!
 
2013-02-11 02:52:50 PM  

Misch: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Increasing yellow signal timing reduces red light running and improves safety. But it has the side effect of making red light cameras unprofitable, so that won't happen (See, Georgia).


Legislatures that continue to support scameras should mandate visible countdown timers on all scamera-equipped signals. This would have a positive effect for each side:

1. Motorists wouldn't have an excuse like, "the light was too short," as the countdown with seconds remaining until signal change is plainly visible.

2. Scamera companies and municipalities would also be kept honest, as a plainly visible countdown would make it impossible to mask a "short yellow" type scam.


Outlawing cameras and mandating countdowns at all signals would be the best option, IMO. Plus, mandating synchronization of signals where feasible, so that motorists wouldn't have as many red lights to risk running in the first place.
 
2013-02-11 02:53:09 PM  
The video in the link was a bad example of someone who got a ticket for rolling a red light that didn't deserve one. She totally blew that red light. I can't believe she beat the ticket.

My problem with the cameras here (other than the fact that I don't think they should even be allowed) is that at the intersections where we have them, the yellow lights are extremely quick. There are two major intersections near my work, and before they installed the cameras, you could easily get six or seven cars through a left arrow. Now it's down to three or four. Yet they insist they haven't shortened the lights. I'm not buying it.

My other complaint is more driver-related. The speed cameras cause people to slow down, even if they weren't speeding in the first place. That drives me absolutely crazy. If the limit is 45 and you're going 40, you don't need to brake for the damn camera. No matter which direction I commute, I'm going to go through at least one intersection with a red-light camera and down one road with a speed camera. I don't get tickets, but I hate the cameras anyway because of how they affect my commute.
 
2013-02-11 02:55:09 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Tricky Chicken: that you will not even recall the exact infraction.

If that's the key to your theory I seriously doubt your theory and reality are the same thing.

You seem to be relying on the idea that you won't really know why you're being punished and so you won't understand the punishment and it will have no effect. Like a dog being punished hours after pooping on the floor.

Fortunately, human beings have language. It allows us to connect past and present in a meaningful way. It seems unlikely that wouldn't apply in this scenario.


Thank you for considering that I may have come up with the theory of Operant Conditioning.  I assure you that I am No B. F. Skinner.  I agree that humans are better able to understand punishment for pooping on the floor hours after the fact.  But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.  I think that is the whole idea behind operant conditioning.

In this case, the fine is removed from the act and is more abstract.

Do you pay your taxes directly, or are they witheld from your paycheck?  Mine are witheld.  I think some people have to actually pay their taxes directly.  Since I pay taxes through witholding, I never really pay attention to how much I am paying until around now when I need to do my return.  At this point, it is just an exercise in mathematics.  Now, If I recieved ALL my earnings, and then had to turn around and write a check to the government each payday, the pain of the taxes would be more tangible.  I might not be so cavalier about my tax rate if I actually had to write a check.
 
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