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(WTOP)   Maryland discovers that they can increase the $afety generated by red light cameras if they expand the net a bit. Potential new customers: people who didn't run a red light, people who might have thought about running a red light   (wtop.com ) divider line
    More: Stupid, Rockville, red light cameras, red lights, camera tickets, WTOP, Cameras Ticket  
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10994 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Feb 2013 at 12:35 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



142 Comments     (+0 »)
 
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest
 
2013-02-11 10:39:40 AM  
Send them a picture of your money.
 
2013-02-11 11:13:34 AM  
I made the judgment that,

Wrong answer.
 
2013-02-11 11:48:50 AM  
""They always tell the public that cameras are meant to go after really dangerous drivers who deliberately speed and run red lights, but the real targets are ordinary drivers like you," says Ron Ely, editor of StopBigBrotherMd.  "

Yeah, because ordinary drivers are never dangerous, deliberately speed, or run red lights.
 
2013-02-11 12:01:49 PM  
See, we got all these whackadoos running all over the country shooting up cops' relatives, people in malls, etc.  What we REALLY need to do is help them focus their range (and their sights) on red light cameras.
 
2013-02-11 12:02:31 PM  

xanadian: range


RAGE!  I meant to type RAGE!!! FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU
 
2013-02-11 12:38:30 PM  
If they ever start using these cameras to ticket jaywalkers then I'm totally screwed.
 
2013-02-11 12:39:02 PM  
When asked, Montgomery County Police Capt. Thomas Didone said his department throws away tickets every day for drivers who inadvertently stopped past the white line or crosswalk

More likely they just tossed out tickets for the politicians and the police only...
 
2013-02-11 12:39:10 PM  
FTFA: "Rockville City Police argue officers are simply enforcing the law enhancing city revenues."

FTFT...
 
2013-02-11 12:39:35 PM  
I should invent a costumed crusader called the "Sentry Smasher" where I travel to small towns and townships, smash all the red light cameras in one night, and disappear.
 
2013-02-11 12:40:00 PM  
If you can't do the time, don't think of the crime.
 
2013-02-11 12:40:11 PM  
she did run that light at a pretty good speed..
 
2013-02-11 12:42:08 PM  

grinding_journalist: I should invent a costumed crusader called the "Sentry Smasher" where I travel to small towns and townships, smash all the red light cameras in one night, and disappear.


Imokwiththis.jpeg
 
2013-02-11 12:42:16 PM  
Wow another story about how red light cameras are for revenue and not safety, color me shocked. I hope these farkwads get sued and have their asses handed to them in court.
 
2013-02-11 12:42:25 PM  

grinding_journalist: I should invent a costumed crusader called the "Sentry Smasher" where I travel to small towns and townships, smash all the red light cameras in one night, and disappear.


I have thought about doing this to not only red light cameras, but to street parking boxes in Chicago. All you would need is a can of black spray paint...
 
2013-02-11 12:43:38 PM  
Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.
 
2013-02-11 12:44:51 PM  
I got one of these rolling right turn tickets in Delaware a couple months ago, at about 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning when there was zero traffic around.  But I viewed the video, said "yup, that's me," and paid the ticket.  Is it stupid?  Yes.  Is it technically illegal?  Yes.

the moral of this story?  Wilmington, Delaware blows donkey dick.
 
2013-02-11 12:45:16 PM  
How much longer before the GPS chip is tapped into on your vehicle and you are just mailed a speeding ticket?
 
2013-02-11 12:45:43 PM  
Don't use black spray paint. It will be obvious.

Use a clear matte finish.
 
2013-02-11 12:45:51 PM  
White / white with flecked paintballs + buddy in the car + paintball gun + driving below speed limit past known cameras = officials having to come out every week to clean of what appears to be bird turboshiatting on the lens.

Good times.
 
2013-02-11 12:45:57 PM  

Random Anonymous Blackmail: How much longer before the GPS chip is tapped into on your vehicle and you are just mailed a speeding ticket?


Thursday.  You didn't get that letter from the DMV?
 
2013-02-11 12:46:35 PM  
So the cops pay the tickets they get whenever they do a rolling stop as well, right? RIGHT?
 
2013-02-11 12:47:02 PM  
 
2013-02-11 12:47:23 PM  

curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.


Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.
 
2013-02-11 12:47:24 PM  
The criminalization of the entire human race continues.
 
2013-02-11 12:47:46 PM  
If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem. Also, if you weren't so damn "NO TAXES EVAR !!!!" then traffic fines and other government money-collecting schemes would go away. But, since taxes are bad, we get huge fees and fines. Which of course don't bother rich people, so they get to flout the law. Only the poors actually get in trouble.
 
2013-02-11 12:47:57 PM  
Just a random trivia factoid for you photography types;

 Every red light camera design I know of does not have special or proprietary cameras inside. They use a standard professional DSLR linked into some special controller hardware through a tethering cable.

 The camera is currently a Nikon D3 or D3x with a either fast prime or a fast wide-mid zoom for low-light capture. I hear one company was using Canons; 1Dm3's and now m4's

 So yes, there is $6k+ of pro photo gear just sitting there in a box on a pole.

  Just sayin'
 
2013-02-11 12:48:14 PM  
I feel safer already!
 
2013-02-11 12:48:46 PM  
I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

As to rolling stops and turns, FARKING STOP. It takes two seconds.

Been driving almost 40 years with one speeding ticket when I was about 20.

/And get off my lawn.
 
2013-02-11 12:49:43 PM  
"I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP. Fortunately, she says Rockville City Police voided her ticket. The video below shows the specific traffic incident Lora was cited for.

She was justly cited for the incident.  She blatantly ran a red light.  If she stopped and then proceeded, I can see her ticket being voided.  However, she treated that as a green right arrow.

"Ninety percent of the tickets we're seeing across the country, according to some studies, for running red lights, are actually because the driver made a so-called rolling right turn on red. That shouldn't be the case. These cameras were designed for people who run the red light and barrel through the intersection," says Townsend.A 2004 study from Texas A&M's Transportation Institute (2004) found that accidents from these turns are exceedingly rare and don't pose a serious traffic safety problem.

Yeah, except that it's not rare.  Every 2 days at an intersection of 2 4-lane roads less than a mile from my house, there's an accident due to someone doing a roll on red.  Just looking at the past month's worth of accident records, every person who did the roll on red was cited...and justly cited.  The "so-called" roll on red is STILL running a red light.  Red means stop.  Red does not mean slow down and roll through if it pleases your highness.  Follow the law, or pony up the money to break it.
 
2013-02-11 12:51:03 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem.


If it wasn't for the fact that this specific setup also happens by definition to nail people making a legal right-turn-on-red, I would agree with you.
 
2013-02-11 12:51:12 PM  
I was always for red light cameras thinking they were for red light runners, but the whole enforcing the no touching the stop line rule is just bogus and because the cameras give out "red light violations" that are really nothing more then a fine... you get slapped with the same expensive fine as a red light runner for not running a red light. These petty violations get my "no" vote for cameras.
 
2013-02-11 12:51:57 PM  
I hate red light cameras as much as the next guy, but technically the biatch did run a red light.  I'm surprised it was dismissed.
 
2013-02-11 12:52:08 PM  
I commute through this sliver of an area where Rockville and Bethesda intersect and had gotten flashed 3 times at an intersection while my light was green. I've luckily been able to get the tickets dismissed. I've also noticed a driver in front of me, with a green signal, get flashed as well a number of times. So, does Maryland ever disable this camera or fix it? Nope. They started actually having a cop park at the corner of that street and I think he just notates when the camera flashes errantly and reports back.
 
2013-02-11 12:53:40 PM  

jmr61: I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

As to rolling stops and turns, FARKING STOP. It takes two seconds.

Been driving almost 40 years with one speeding ticket when I was about 20.

/And get off my lawn.


There's nothing quite like having some moron turning right (actually, whether it's red or not), blaring on their horn and cursing you because you're walking across "their" intersection.
 
2013-02-11 12:54:10 PM  
Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?
 
2013-02-11 12:54:20 PM  

tallen702: curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.

Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.



I'm guessing (if it's anything like around here) that it's not the act of making a right on a red that got her a ticket but because she didn't stop first.
 
2013-02-11 12:54:29 PM  
I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

I fully agree. The best look I ever got was the old lady trying to figure out why I walked over the hood of her car. Made more sense than walking into oncoming cars.
 
2013-02-11 12:55:21 PM  
I'm worried the next set of tickets will be for people who pull forward to make a left (legally, on green), but can't manage to cross traffic safely before the light turns. "well, you shouldn't have pulled into the intersection!"
Brilliant. We'll cause a whole new spate of accidents as people rush to cross traffic before the light.
 
2013-02-11 12:55:28 PM  
Well then, I guess if you're stuck somewhere between yellow and red, don't bother slamming on your brakes to stop for the light. Because you're getting a ticket one way or the other.

Basically encouraging people to continue running a red light should help with traffic $afety now shouldn't it?
 
ows
2013-02-11 12:57:56 PM  
just install the progressive insuarnace snapshot. run a red light without hitting your brakes and your gold. slam on your brakes to avoid a kid dashing out in the street.............you're a dangerous driver.
 
2013-02-11 12:58:24 PM  
I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.
 
2013-02-11 12:59:04 PM  
So, basically, they're ticketing people who stop in the intersection because they weren't paying attention to the light and they're ticketing people who are ignoring the light and running it during a turn. And I'm supposed to have a problem with this why?

Fark those people. I hate coming to an intersection and trying to make a left turn only to have to go wide around it because some dipshiat has rolled into the intersection to stop and I hate coming to an intersection and getting a green light only to have to stop or slow down because some dickhead to the right has decided to run it because apparently that's a-ok when you're making a right turn. In many cases even when there's a clear "NO TURN ON RED" sign.

Aside from cases where towns were intentionally shortening light cycles I have yet to see an example of why I should be outraged about these cameras. The "arguments" always come down to "we shouldn't have them because now my lazy driving is getting caught".

Not a compelling argument. You don't want a ticket for being a shiatty driver? Don't be a shiatty driver.
 
2013-02-11 01:01:25 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


No it wouldn't increase safety. People would just speed up as the time is running out and that causes accidents. You can be ticketed for going through a yellow light. If you can stop safely, you are required to. Whether or not this is possible is the sole discretion of the police officer who tickets you
 
2013-02-11 01:02:52 PM  

wildcardjack: Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?


Really simple solution - AFAIK most places require you to be personally served by a cop within a certain time frame, 90d or so.  I got two letters in the mail, ignored them both.  Was semi-vigilant when leaving/getting home for a street cop around and made it the 90d.  No more letters and no fine paid!
 
2013-02-11 01:03:23 PM  

KatjaMouse: I commute through this sliver of an area where Rockville and Bethesda intersect and had gotten flashed 3 times at an intersection while my light was green. I've luckily been able to get the tickets dismissed. I've also noticed a driver in front of me, with a green signal, get flashed as well a number of times. So, does Maryland ever disable this camera or fix it? Nope. They started actually having a cop park at the corner of that street and I think he just notates when the camera flashes errantly and reports back.


I play hockey off of East Gude.  I see these things go off all the time.  People will be sitting still at the red, and the flash will go off.  But these are all for safety.  Thanks Ike!
 
2013-02-11 01:04:01 PM  
I hate this state. That is all. If I could leave I would.
 
2013-02-11 01:05:12 PM  

JohnnyBravo: I hate this state. That is all. If I could leave I would.


Don't go back. You'll just waste another year.
 
2013-02-11 01:08:55 PM  

Naesen: White / white with flecked paintballs + buddy in the car + paintball gun + driving below speed limit past known cameras = officials having to come out every week to clean of what appears to be bird turboshiatting on the lens.

Good times.


Note to self: Name new band "TurboShiatting."
 
2013-02-11 01:09:39 PM  
OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?
 
2013-02-11 01:09:43 PM  

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: If they ever start using these cameras to ticket jaywalkers then I'm totally screwed.


Hopefully you will remain GETTING LUCKY.
 
2013-02-11 01:11:11 PM  

curtis_e_bare: tallen702: curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.

Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


I'm guessing (if it's anything like around here) that it's not the act of making a right on a red that got her a ticket but because she didn't stop first.


Probably not actually. When I lived in Baltimore, the red light cameras would flash anytime you made a ROR, they'd just take a look at the picture and realize that you were making a turn and not, in fact, blowing through a stoplight. Most red light cameras work off a two-shot principle. They take the shot when the light turns red showing you behind the line, and then if someone trips the loop, it snaps a shot of that person in the intersection while the light is red. First one shows that the light had changed before you entered the intersection, second one shows that you didn't stop.

Rockville is a shiathole town. County gov't HQ is there, so it's full of bureaucratic retards who hate life anyway. Never mind the fact that they only care about the south county. (Rockville, Silver Spring, Potomac, etc). They don't give a damned about us upcounty residents for anything other than our taxes. I live 50 yards from the Fredneck county line, I wish they'd move it about 60 yards closer......
 
2013-02-11 01:14:55 PM  
I was going to side with that right-turn lady til i saw the video. Now I'm baffled she managed to void that ticket.
 
2013-02-11 01:15:34 PM  
I see the slippery slope has astroglide on it.
 
2013-02-11 01:16:53 PM  

Random Anonymous Blackmail: How much longer before the GPS chip is tapped into on your vehicle and you are just mailed a speeding ticket?


Do a Google search for the privacy issues associated with "black box" data recorders that are showing up in a lot of cars and may be mandatory very soon.
 
2013-02-11 01:19:01 PM  
However, Rockville police say it's about protecting pedestrians, bicyclists and others who use the crosswalk.

And this, this right here, is why police departments cannot be trusted.  This is about revenue.  It always has been.  It always will be.  That is the reason why every time discussion is raised to end one of these programs, loss of revenue is the first objection raised.  As long as police departments are filled with lying, disingenuous pieces of shiat, "justice" in this country will remain nothing but a farce.
 
2013-02-11 01:21:52 PM  
Just got a total bullshiat red light camera ticket from Maryland, so I'm getting a real kick...
 
2013-02-11 01:23:01 PM  
"I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP.

What the hell.. she didnt even get anywhere close to stopping.  Didnt compress her struts...nothing.
She looked just like she would have, if the light was green and she turned right.

She deserves the ticket.
 
2013-02-11 01:24:07 PM  

tallen702: curtis_e_bare: tallen702: curtis_e_bare: Just to get this straight, no one appears upset that running a red light but turning right while doing so or stopping on the far side of the stop line are traffic infractions, but they are upset because it is now being enforced?


Gotcha.

Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


I'm guessing (if it's anything like around here) that it's not the act of making a right on a red that got her a ticket but because she didn't stop first.

Probably not actually. When I lived in Baltimore, the red light cameras would flash anytime you made a ROR, they'd just take a look at the picture and realize that you were making a turn and not, in fact, blowing through a stoplight. Most red light cameras work off a two-shot principle. They take the shot when the light turns red showing you behind the line, and then if someone trips the loop, it snaps a shot of that person in the intersection while the light is red. First one shows that the light had changed before you entered the intersection, second one shows that you didn't stop.

Rockville is a shiathole town. County gov't HQ is there, so it's full of bureaucratic retards who hate life anyway. Never mind the fact that they only care about the south county. (Rockville, Silver Spring, Potomac, etc). They don't give a damned about us upcounty residents for anything other than our taxes. I live 50 yards from the Fredneck county line, I wish they'd move it about 60 yards closer......



Nothing in TFA suggests this is the case. The discussion, and the included video, is about people running red lights but think it's OK because they are turning right while doing so. You stop at red lights, no exceptions (well, unless you are driving an emergency vehicle.) The entirety of TFA is people complaining because they are now getting caught, not because they think these traffic rules are unfair or because the technology doesn't correctly record when people run red lights. I'm certainly not taking the position the technology is infallible, but that doesn't appear to be the case in this instance. I'm sure if this was suspected it would be a major part of the article.
 
2013-02-11 01:25:01 PM  
 OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?



Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.
 
2013-02-11 01:26:13 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.
 
2013-02-11 01:29:38 PM  
Blowing through a ROR has become a pet peeve of mine, I have no problem with that part of the upgrade.
 
2013-02-11 01:29:52 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: "I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP.

What the hell.. she didnt even get anywhere close to stopping.  Didnt compress her struts...nothing.
She looked just like she would have, if the light was green and she turned right.

She deserves the ticket.


While I agree, and I agree everyone who runs a red light deserves a ticket, I'd have much preferred the cop sitting at the light when she made her turn issue the ticket instead of it being mailed to her.
 
2013-02-11 01:30:34 PM  

yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.


Around here, you can see the pedestrian timer at the same time you see the light.  That gives a good indicator for how long you have until it turns yellow.
 
2013-02-11 01:32:20 PM  

Happy Hours: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.  Things like going straight through a green lights (you must be saying "Those bastards!"). Tickets for people that did stop at the light then turned red (I see these lights go off all the time).  Of course you are such a good and perfect driver that you remember each and every single time you passed through each and every single intercection for the last three weeks. I am sure you know exactly what time you passed through each intersection, how fast you were going, and how many seconds that light was yellow before you passed through it. Because you are perfect aren't you.

So, when you get an automated ticket in the mail you can just consult your perfect little memory and recall the exact time and place you were cited.

However, for most of us average to below average people, we go through the exact same set of intersections 40-50 times a month.  I couldn't tell you what I had for lunch last Wednesday, I sure as heck can't tell you how fast I was going down 355 where the speed trap is that day.  If a policeman were to pull me over, that would put the event into a more permanent memory category.  But for a speed trap that doesn't even flash in the daytime? Never.

So you have a county that generates a known number of incorrect tickets, and we are absolutely certain that not a single incorrect one makes it past their quality check process.


But like you so smugly said "OMG, They're enforcing the law!!!"

Three smug exclamation points no less.
 
2013-02-11 01:35:02 PM  

IRQ12: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.


IRQ12: OMG, they're enforcing the law!!!

This is an outrage?


Here's some reading for you:   http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/159403522 9

In summary, laws are generally written with the intent of applying them to those who willfully disregard them and/or cause problems because of the behavior.


I've heard of this book, but I find the title a little hard to believe. Perhaps if the summaries or reviews included an example of one of these felonies I might commit any day I might be tempted to read it.

Moreover, do some reading behind what the realities of these cameras is all about, revenue for the city and profit for the corporation that lobbies for it.

I agree that they shouldn't be run for profit by private companies and I've read about abuses but I also believe they can be run fairly and running a red light is very dangerous.

If you want to make an argument that no stop should be required for ROR on a Sunday morning when there's no traffic, make that argument.

Based on my experiences with RLCs in my town, I think they're doing it right. Somehow I've never gotten a ticket because....wait for it....I stop when the light turns red.
 
2013-02-11 01:35:24 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


They don't need a yellow timer, there would be absolutely no point for it because there is never a time where you suddenly upon a yellow light but not the previous green light. The problem can be the time on the yellow overall. Thankfully the city I run through has 5ish second yellow lights (although the cameras are new). Its the ones that are set to 3.2 seconds whose administrators should be jailed for.
 
2013-02-11 01:36:03 PM  
So, does Maryland ever disable this camera or fix it? Nope. They started actually having a cop park at the corner of that street and I think he just notates when the camera flashes errantly and reports back.

That is because the camera is contracted out, but the department has to deal with all the complaints.
It is cheaper to have a cop sit there all year round than to pay the contractor to fix the camera, and/or deal with a ton of court appearances that cost more than the ticket value to process. Bonus, anyone that does not contest and just pays up, the city generally accepts and does not reject.
 
2013-02-11 01:37:48 PM  
Wow...so sad that THIS is how my hometown makes it onto Fark.

Stay classy, Rockvillians!
 
2013-02-11 01:38:48 PM  

Zimmy: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.

Around here, you can see the pedestrian timer at the same time you see the light.  That gives a good indicator for how long you have until it turns yellow.


I got that here too. But here, we got random yellow light timers. Some yellow lights stay yellow for a good 5+ seconds. Others are almost instant changes (1 to 2 seconds) which is barely enough time to actually register that yellow light change. So I know when the green light is about to change but never when the yellow to red will.
 
2013-02-11 01:39:45 PM  

digitalrain: Wow...so sad that THIS is how my hometown makes it onto Fark.

Stay classy, Rockvillians!


*pfft* You should be glad this is the only reason they made Fark... as far as we know.
 
2013-02-11 01:39:47 PM  

yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.


Never, ever, seen a yellow light countdown timer. Why bother? Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long. By the time you recognized what it was doing, the timer would be nearly over and changing to red anyway.

/got a ticket making a right turn on red, didn't stop
//motorcycle police was in the lane next to me when I did it
///just pulled over and waited on him
 
2013-02-11 01:43:38 PM  

Bendal: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.

Never, ever, seen a yellow light countdown timer. Why bother? Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long. By the time you recognized what it was doing, the timer would be nearly over and changing to red anyway.

/got a ticket making a right turn on red, didn't stop
//motorcycle police was in the lane next to me when I did it
///just pulled over and waited on him


I have seen some yellow light timers in small towns across the US when I was a kid. They were a nice touch. And some towns had the green turn signal go after the lights and not before it. Which to me, made sense to stop people from running the lights. Anyone can make a left turn when the intersection was clear and if you did not make it, you just caught the green arrow at the end of the light.
 
2013-02-11 01:43:50 PM  

Bendal: Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long.


Rule of thumb for yellow timing is 1 second per 10 miles per hour.  This gives enough time/distance to stop safely.  Most DOTs abide by this.

Anything less is for revenue generation.
 
2013-02-11 01:45:46 PM  

djones101: "A 2004 study from Texas A&M's Transportation Institute (2004) found that accidents from these turns are exceedingly rare and don't pose a serious traffic safety problem."

Yeah, except that it's not rare.


Hmmm. Study by Texas A&M Transportation Institute or djones101? I think I'll trust djones101.
 
2013-02-11 01:47:39 PM  

Tricky Chicken: Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.


That's not what the article says.

If that is the case, then the RLCs need to be fixed. There are people who anecdotally claim they were ticketed when the light was green but it's actually quite rare to see pictures of it so I'm a bit skeptical.

And I don't have to remember if I violated a red light because I simply don't do it.

I do speed, but not enough to get caught by speed cameras around here. You have to be going at least 10 over on a residential street to get one and I don't go that fast on residential streets. Not only that, there are signs before speed cameras.

At least around here, they've made an effort not to fark people over.
 
2013-02-11 01:48:30 PM  

tallen702: Right turn on red isn't a crime unless otherwise posted in MD, but Rockville will ticket you for it anyway.


Turning right on red without stopping is against the law in MD.  It's dangerous.  She should have been ticketed.

If that video is an example of what is wrong with red light cameras, I say we need more cameras just like it.

It's outrageous that the woman's ticket was voided.
 
2013-02-11 01:49:38 PM  

enik: Well then, I guess if you're stuck somewhere between yellow and red, don't bother slamming on your brakes to stop for the light. Because you're getting a ticket one way or the other.


You are either going too fast, or you were adjusting your radio while approaching the intersection.
Both are flogging offences.
 
2013-02-11 01:49:46 PM  
Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane. What they should do is put up a green arrow for turning right, but they won't do that. They should change the law to yield when turning right on red, because really, everyone rolls though. I don't think I've seen a car come to a full stop in a while. Just because "IT IS A LAW" is a bad reason to ticket, especially when the traffic system isn't designed in a way to expedite all traffic as quickly as possible.
 
2013-02-11 01:50:49 PM  

wildcardjack: Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?


Trust me on this, there is no way to prove they didn't send paperwork.  All they need to do is claim they did and you are FUBAR.

/lost a lawsuit because zero paperwork came to my house
//judge believed the other party's word they sent it
///both Judge Beiter of Ada County, Boise, Idaho and the other party are corrupt
 
2013-02-11 01:51:43 PM  

Happy Hours: Tricky Chicken: Actually, they are regularly sending citations to people that did not violate any law.

That's not what the article says.

If that is the case, then the RLCs need to be fixed. There are people who anecdotally claim they were ticketed when the light was green but it's actually quite rare to see pictures of it so I'm a bit skeptical.

And I don't have to remember if I violated a red light because I simply don't do it.

I do speed, but not enough to get caught by speed cameras around here. You have to be going at least 10 over on a residential street to get one and I don't go that fast on residential streets. Not only that, there are signs before speed cameras.

At least around here, they've made an effort not to fark people over.


I would not believe that too if I have not seen the RLC actually take multiple pictures during a green light while I sat there watching it. I once counted 3 different pictures being taken while the light was green. So three people got a ticket for doing nothing wrong.
 
2013-02-11 01:53:40 PM  

Smeggy Smurf: wildcardjack: Umm....

Is there a law forcing me to receive mail from the USPS? If I don't accept mail then how can I be fined by mail?

Trust me on this, there is no way to prove they didn't send paperwork.  All they need to do is claim they did and you are FUBAR.

/lost a lawsuit because zero paperwork came to my house
//judge believed the other party's word they sent it
///both Judge Beiter of Ada County, Boise, Idaho and the other party are corrupt


Something like this needs to be certified mail to prove it made it there. That way, everyone is safe. Then again, judges usually side with the cops on everything.
 
2013-02-11 01:54:01 PM  

xanadian: xanadian: range

RAGE!  I meant to type RAGE!!! FFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU


both words are equally appropriate in that sentence
 
2013-02-11 01:55:54 PM  

shaunmark: Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane.


No cars coming.  Nothing to worry about but pesky pedestrians getting caught in her wheel well.
 
2013-02-11 01:56:17 PM  

yves0010: Zimmy: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

I got that here too. But here, we got random yellow light timers. Some yellow lights stay yellow for a good 5+ seconds. Others are almost instant changes (1 to 2 seconds) which is barely enough time to actually register that yellow light change. So I know when the green light is about to change but never when the yellow to red will.


Well,  if you know when the green one is about to change, you should just start braking at that point.
Then you would never have to worry about a short yellow.
 
2013-02-11 01:57:33 PM  
Happy Hours: ....
Based on my experiences with RLCs in my town, I think they're doing it right. Somehow I've never gotten a ticket because....wait for it....I stop when the light turns red.

I think the majority of complaints is about the revenue generation/profit use of them.  In a lot of places that they use them (the ones you hear about for obvious reasons) they are tweaked to maximize profit, not safety.  Even in places where they have been shown to be useless or cause other safety issues (rear-endings).

That's probably why they simply throw out the tickets for people who complain in this case, they know the court costs will reduce the revenue even if the ticket is proper.

Law enforcement should address problems, not be waiting around every corner to catch normally law abiding citizens in a petty error.  The cop sitting at the bottom of a steep grade looking to catch grandma doing 9 over or the soccer mom rolling a right turn is doing nothing to improve traffic safety they're just making everyone jumpy, crappy drivers....ya know the ones that slow down to 20 under the limit when they see a cop on the freeway.
 
2013-02-11 02:03:43 PM  
Red light and speed cameras are supposed to be around to 'train' us to obey the law through the use of punishment.

It has been many years since I took any psychology classes, but I think this would fall into the realm of operant conditioning (probably totally wrong here).  I think that is the one where you perform an action and get a reward if it is good, or a punishment if it is bad.  I vaguely recall that the effectiveness of this conditioning is tied to the immediacy of the reward or punishment.  If you do not get a citation for 2-3 weeks after the event, the immediacy would likely be minimal.  If you speed and a policeman pulls you over, that is immediate punishment (the time and embarrassment of getting pulled over) followed by a later financial punishment.  But since you know that the financial punishment is coming, you feel it immediately.

If you get a mailed citation, it is quite possible that you will not even recall the exact infraction.  I would guess the conditioning value of this punishment schedule is negligible.

It would therefore only be about revenue.
 
2013-02-11 02:07:19 PM  
So THAT'S what Ron Ely is doing nowadays.  It's been a long time since his Tarzan days.
 
2013-02-11 02:10:25 PM  

haterade: she did run that light at a pretty good speed..


Red light cameras are bull$hiat. That said, that driver in the video deserved the ticket. That wasn't a California stop, that was blowing the light.
 
2013-02-11 02:12:34 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: enik: Well then, I guess if you're stuck somewhere between yellow and red, don't bother slamming on your brakes to stop for the light. Because you're getting a ticket one way or the other.

You are either going too fast, or you were adjusting your radio while approaching the intersection.
Both are flogging offences.


Or sometimes you are driving a multiple ton truck.  I've hit an orange light or two in a dovetail while working because I knew I was hauling too much weight to stop before the intersection.
 
2013-02-11 02:14:17 PM  

Tricky Chicken: that you will not even recall the exact infraction.


If that's the key to your theory I seriously doubt your theory and reality are the same thing.

You seem to be relying on the idea that you won't really know why you're being punished and so you won't understand the punishment and it will have no effect. Like a dog being punished hours after pooping on the floor.

Fortunately, human beings have language. It allows us to connect past and present in a meaningful way. It seems unlikely that wouldn't apply in this scenario.
 
2013-02-11 02:26:26 PM  

Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.


Increasing yellow signal timing reduces red light running and improves safety. But it has the side effect of making red light cameras unprofitable, so that won't happen (See, Georgia).
 
2013-02-11 02:34:06 PM  

shaunmark: Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane. What they should do is put up a green arrow for turning right, but they won't do that. They should change the law to yield when turning right on red, because really, everyone rolls though. I don't think I've seen a car come to a full stop in a while. Just because "IT IS A LAW" is a bad reason to ticket, especially when the traffic system isn't designed in a way to expedite all traffic as quickly as possible.


Heinrich von Eckardt: No cars coming. Nothing to worry about but pesky pedestrians getting caught in her wheel well.


I was coming in to say what shaunmark said.  Heinrich, there shouldn't be any pedestrians because of the advanced left turn, so, I still think her turn should be allowed and she was right to get the ticket dismissed.  They need to put up a right turn green when the perpendicular direction has their left turn arrows.  But they won't.

I must moved to this area and find the drivers to be really...  pensive/timid (for lack of better terms).  Slowing down to almost 30mph when a 35 mph speed camera is about to be passed, stopping for a full three seconds at 4-way stop signs even when no traffic is coming, taking a couple seconds to go when the light turns green.

It's really frustrating coming from LA, I hate driving here.  They're not concerned about keeping traffic moving, it's about not breaking any law$.  It makes everyone a bad driver and they'd be eaten alive in any other large city.  There are a A LOT of 'no right turn on red' signs here, where it makes no sense to have one.  I just never noticed those cameras before.  And placing speed cameras at the bottom of hills is total bullshiat.
 
2013-02-11 02:39:27 PM  
It is busting 'rolling stops' or 'rolling turns on red'?  Good, you should be stopping for the light and then proceeding...if you are rolling through the light you aren't looking for pedestrians.

/cry me a river
 
2013-02-11 02:42:16 PM  
How hard is it to stop BEFORE crossing the stop line?
 
2013-02-11 02:42:41 PM  
HEY! howsaboutwe don't break the law?
 
2013-02-11 02:43:40 PM  
I mean seriously folks, moneygrab or not, you're breaking the farking law.  Man up to it and try following the rules
 
2013-02-11 02:47:26 PM  
Having been hit by a driver doing a rolling right, I am finding this conversation hilarious. Hang 'em high!
 
2013-02-11 02:52:50 PM  

Misch: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Increasing yellow signal timing reduces red light running and improves safety. But it has the side effect of making red light cameras unprofitable, so that won't happen (See, Georgia).


Legislatures that continue to support scameras should mandate visible countdown timers on all scamera-equipped signals. This would have a positive effect for each side:

1. Motorists wouldn't have an excuse like, "the light was too short," as the countdown with seconds remaining until signal change is plainly visible.

2. Scamera companies and municipalities would also be kept honest, as a plainly visible countdown would make it impossible to mask a "short yellow" type scam.


Outlawing cameras and mandating countdowns at all signals would be the best option, IMO. Plus, mandating synchronization of signals where feasible, so that motorists wouldn't have as many red lights to risk running in the first place.
 
2013-02-11 02:53:09 PM  
The video in the link was a bad example of someone who got a ticket for rolling a red light that didn't deserve one. She totally blew that red light. I can't believe she beat the ticket.

My problem with the cameras here (other than the fact that I don't think they should even be allowed) is that at the intersections where we have them, the yellow lights are extremely quick. There are two major intersections near my work, and before they installed the cameras, you could easily get six or seven cars through a left arrow. Now it's down to three or four. Yet they insist they haven't shortened the lights. I'm not buying it.

My other complaint is more driver-related. The speed cameras cause people to slow down, even if they weren't speeding in the first place. That drives me absolutely crazy. If the limit is 45 and you're going 40, you don't need to brake for the damn camera. No matter which direction I commute, I'm going to go through at least one intersection with a red-light camera and down one road with a speed camera. I don't get tickets, but I hate the cameras anyway because of how they affect my commute.
 
2013-02-11 02:55:09 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Tricky Chicken: that you will not even recall the exact infraction.

If that's the key to your theory I seriously doubt your theory and reality are the same thing.

You seem to be relying on the idea that you won't really know why you're being punished and so you won't understand the punishment and it will have no effect. Like a dog being punished hours after pooping on the floor.

Fortunately, human beings have language. It allows us to connect past and present in a meaningful way. It seems unlikely that wouldn't apply in this scenario.


Thank you for considering that I may have come up with the theory of Operant Conditioning.  I assure you that I am No B. F. Skinner.  I agree that humans are better able to understand punishment for pooping on the floor hours after the fact.  But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.  I think that is the whole idea behind operant conditioning.

In this case, the fine is removed from the act and is more abstract.

Do you pay your taxes directly, or are they witheld from your paycheck?  Mine are witheld.  I think some people have to actually pay their taxes directly.  Since I pay taxes through witholding, I never really pay attention to how much I am paying until around now when I need to do my return.  At this point, it is just an exercise in mathematics.  Now, If I recieved ALL my earnings, and then had to turn around and write a check to the government each payday, the pain of the taxes would be more tangible.  I might not be so cavalier about my tax rate if I actually had to write a check.
 
2013-02-11 02:59:09 PM  
As someone who was just slammed into by a woman who ran a red light, I'm actually OK with this. I was "lucky" that she slammed me into somebody else so that person could act as my witness. It would have really sucked if the third party wasn't involved because the car behind me at the light just took off.


So yeah, I can safely say that I am not against red light cameras.

And if all four of your tires go past the white lines... you probably aren't paying enough attention.
 
2013-02-11 03:06:46 PM  
As someone who has seen 3 near misses for people breaking suddenly for yellows (and one where it actually caused a minor collision), I can safely say I'm against Red Light Cameras.

That's in the last 30 days. US HWY 41 in Illinois is a major road and should be treated as such.
 
2013-02-11 03:07:51 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem. Also, if you weren't so damn "NO TAXES EVAR !!!!" then traffic fines and other government money-collecting schemes would go away. But, since taxes are bad, we get huge fees and fines. Which of course don't bother rich people, so they get to flout the law. Only the poors actually get in trouble.


Don't kid yourself - cops are pretty much like any government so-called "service".  They can NEVER have enough money or officers. It's human nature to build up your empire if you can just keep asking for and getting more every time.
 
2013-02-11 03:16:23 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem. Also, if you weren't so damn "NO TAXES EVAR !!!!" then traffic fines and other government money-collecting schemes would go away. But, since taxes are bad, we get huge fees and fines. Which of course don't bother rich people, so they get to flout the law. Only the poors actually get in trouble.


Sigh. You'll learn, young grasshopper.
 
2013-02-11 03:17:43 PM  
The signal was yellow, sir.
 
2013-02-11 03:19:28 PM  
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ IT'S ALL ABOUT TRAFFIC SAFETY $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

/Think of the children???
 
2013-02-11 03:27:09 PM  

doglover: Send them a picture of your money.


I read of someone who did that...

The police sent them a picture of a pair of handcuffs.

They paid the fine.
 
2013-02-11 03:38:53 PM  

shaunmark: Yeah, she goes through the red light, with some speed, on a right turn. But you can clearly see from the intersection the lane in front of her has a leading green and is turning left. Therefore, there is no where else a car can be coming from to enter her lane. What they should do is put up a green arrow for turning right, but they won't do that. They should change the law to yield when turning right on red, because really, everyone rolls though. I don't think I've seen a car come to a full stop in a while. Just because "IT IS A LAW" is a bad reason to ticket, especially when the traffic system isn't designed in a way to expedite all traffic as quickly as possible.


Also, if pedestrians are the question:  No pedestrian should be in the intersection in that configuration.  It could be safer than actually stopping because of rear ending.

I would love to follow around one of the "*smug* don't break the law then" people around for a day with the authority to ticket/arrest them.  Unfortunately, it's the only thing that changes the "NOT ME" crowds point of view.
 
2013-02-11 03:41:07 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem. Also, if you weren't so damn "NO TAXES EVAR !!!!" then traffic fines and other government money-collecting schemes would go away. But, since taxes are bad, we get huge fees and fines. Which of course don't bother rich people, so they get to flout the law. Only the poors actually get in trouble.


Meh, 1/10. You'll get a bite or two.
 
2013-02-11 03:45:26 PM  

jmr61: I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

As to rolling stops and turns, FARKING STOP. It takes two seconds.

Been driving almost 40 years with one speeding ticket when I was about 20.

/And get off my lawn.


This.  If you stop completely blocking the crosswalk, I will march right across the hood of your car rather than detour into traffic.  And your "rolling stop" is not a stop of any kind.  While you're looking left, you're running over me.. Fark you sideways with a large Mexican cactus!
 
2013-02-11 03:45:50 PM  

arghyematey: As someone who was just slammed into by a woman who ran a red light, I'm actually OK with this. I was "lucky" that she slammed me into somebody else so that person could act as my witness. It would have really sucked if the third party wasn't involved because the car behind me at the light just took off.


So yeah, I can safely say that I am not against red light cameras.

And if all four of your tires go past the white lines... you probably aren't paying enough attention.


Serious question.  Do you honestly believe a red light camera would have prevented that accident?  Do you think the person who isn't paying attention enough to avoid running into you would have noticed a little box on the corner?  Do you think that ROR is inherently dangerous or the people who aren't paying attention?

Have you read any of the more in-depth studies of red-light cameras?  Or does it just sound like a good idea?
 
2013-02-11 03:50:16 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: "I was floored. I am a safe and careful driver and as I approached this particular three-way intersection at West Gude Drive and Gaither Road on Aug. 7, I made the judgment that, since no traffic was coming from my left because the opposite intersection was turning left, this was a safe turn, " says driver Maggie Lora in an email to WTOP.

What the hell.. she didnt even get anywhere close to stopping.  Didnt compress her struts...nothing.
She looked just like she would have, if the light was green and she turned right.

She deserves the ticket.


She deserves to die in a fiery crash.

"Safe and careful," my pretty, pink rosebud.
 
2013-02-11 04:07:51 PM  

IRQ12: arghyematey: As someone who was just slammed into by a woman who ran a red light, I'm actually OK with this. I was "lucky" that she slammed me into somebody else so that person could act as my witness. It would have really sucked if the third party wasn't involved because the car behind me at the light just took off.


So yeah, I can safely say that I am not against red light cameras.

And if all four of your tires go past the white lines... you probably aren't paying enough attention.

Serious question.  Do you honestly believe a red light camera would have prevented that accident?  Do you think the person who isn't paying attention enough to avoid running into you would have noticed a little box on the corner?  Do you think that ROR is inherently dangerous or the people who aren't paying attention?

Have you read any of the more in-depth studies of red-light cameras?  Or does it just sound like a good idea?


Who knows if it would have been prevented? Probably not. Really, I just would have liked to have a record of the fact that it wasn't my fault. Like I said, luckily I didn't need it because there was another witness involved, but I could have been screwed. Or not, who knows.

I don't think a lot of people really pay attention to the cameras. I know that I don't, unless there is a sign in the area. I do think there are some areas that could benefit from having red light cameras- such as the intersection where I was hit. I personally have seen a different car run through that intersection before, and a few friends have seen the same thing. It might not hurt to crack down on that area a little bit- I hardly ever even see police presence there, and it's the street that I live on.

As far as how the city officials handle the red light ticketing, I think it can vary from city to city whether it is used for safety or $afety. I have no doubt that for many cities, it is purely profit. I doubt that would be the case for every city though.

I've never really looked into studies of red light cameras but I don't think they are necessarily a bad thing. I don't think that ROR is bad either but if there is a sign that says not to do it, I don't do it.
 
2013-02-11 04:08:50 PM  

Tricky Chicken: But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.


You have no reason to say that. You're comparing training animals to conform to a certain unknown norm to punishing humans for deviating from the norm they knew they were expected to conform to in the first place.

In fact, I think your idea of immediate reinforcement would be less effective overall. When people get hit with a speeding ticket, do you think they tend to actually slow down, or do you think they just learn to watch for a cop at that specific spot?
 
2013-02-11 04:31:58 PM  

CliChe Guevara: Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem.

If it wasn't for the fact that this specific setup also happens by definition to nail people making a legal right-turn-on-red, I would agree with you.


That word doesn't mean what you think it means.
If you're making a right on red, you have to stop first. As is explained in the article.
 
2013-02-11 04:32:49 PM  

JackieRabbit: FTFA: "Rockville City Police argue officers are simply enforcing the law enhancing city revenues."


If it were me, revenue from citations would be remanded to the public, (government sends you a check every year) the state wouldn't be able to keep a dime.
 
2013-02-11 04:34:32 PM  
Easy solution: no money is allowed to be involved in issues of crime.

Done.
 
2013-02-11 04:37:51 PM  

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer: If you nitwits would STOP at red lights, you wouldn't have a problem. Also, if you weren't so damn "NO TAXES EVAR !!!!" then traffic fines and other government money-collecting schemes would go away. But, since taxes are bad, we get huge fees and fines. Which of course don't bother rich people, so they get to flout the law. Only the poors actually get in trouble.


Yeah, ok. Or the more likely scenario: they'd just spend the new tax money and the keep the fines.
 
2013-02-11 04:47:38 PM  
It has been many years since I took any psychology classes, but I think this would fall into the realm of operant conditioning (probably totally wrong here).  I think that is the one where you perform

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Tricky Chicken: But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.

You have no reason to say that. You're comparing training animals to conform to a certain unknown norm to punishing humans for deviating from the norm they knew they were expected to conform to in the first place.

In fact, I think your idea of immediate reinforcement would be less effective overall. When people get hit with a speeding ticket, do you think they tend to actually slow down, or do you think they just learn to watch for a cop at that specific spot?


He has plenty of reason to say that. Operant conditioning is well established in human psychology. In fact, while I'm writing this, I'm listening to a therapist using it on my son, as part of a program that has been very effective.

I do, however, disagree with

Tricky Chicken: Red light and speed cameras are supposed to be around to 'train' us to obey the law through the use of punishment.


These laws were made by lawyers, not by trained psychologists. And they are effective in getting a subset of people to stop. I drove carefully when I was broke, because I couldn't afford a ticket. But that wasn't because of a behavior correction, it was because a cost benefit analysis said the cost was too high and the gain was too little.

And, as always, whether tickets are about revenue or behavior correction remains irrelevant. The law is what the law is. If you don't like it, change it.
 
2013-02-11 04:49:08 PM  
Eh, I screwed up the quoting in that previous post. Ignore everything before "Vegan Meat Popsicle:"
 
2013-02-11 04:53:46 PM  

arghyematey:  I don't think that ROR is bad either but if there is a sign that says not to do it, I don't do it. ...


I concur and there are definitely places where it is generally unsafe to do so.  I have no problem with sane minded enforcement to improve safety.  Usually improved safety comes from better lighting, road design, etc anyway.  Every city has those select intersections that are death traps on a daily basis while most of the others have little incident.

As for the video in this incident it is basically displaying a completely reasonable ROR without a complete stop.  It is a right turn only, with the opposing traffic blocked by a left turn single and a clear and unobstructed view of the upcoming lane of travel and the crosswalks.  Someone coming to a complete and full stop before the line in that scenario would be a nuisance, impeding traffic flow.

Ever follow behind a student driver driving 'perfectly'?
 
2013-02-11 05:32:15 PM  
A second new violation in Rockville is the rolling right turn, or when a driver doesn't come to a complete stop before turning right on red.

Are there any statistics that show that rolling-rights-on-red kill people?
 
2013-02-11 05:34:25 PM  
As a resident of Rockville, fark that camera on Gude Dr (The one shown in the video). That POS seems to trigger at random, even when people are fully stopped there.

That said, I have no sympathy for the woman who rolled right through it like that.
 
2013-02-11 05:53:35 PM  
It's RIGHT TURN ON RED AFTER STOP. What is so hard about that?
Quit sniveling and obey the law.
 
2013-02-11 07:15:01 PM  

Krieghund: Operant conditioning is well established in human psychology


And I'm arguing that's not, fundamentally, what's happening here nor is it what's supposed to be happening. Punishment and classical conditioning are not inherently the same thing.
 
2013-02-11 07:16:10 PM  

Bendal: yves0010: Endive Wombat: I fail to understand why they do not increase yellow light times and put in a visible yellow timer.  I have no idea if this will increase safety, but I like to think it would.

Simple. That makes sense, it takes money they either do not have or do not want to spend and it will cut into their money making schemes using the Red Light cams.

Never, ever, seen a yellow light countdown timer. Why bother? Yellow times are typically only 2-4 seconds long. By the time you recognized what it was doing, the timer would be nearly over and changing to red anyway.

/got a ticket making a right turn on red, didn't stop
//motorcycle police was in the lane next to me when I did it
///just pulled over and waited on him


My comments will be about replacing the yellow with a countdown timer displayed when the green is before it goes yellow.  There may be other types of count down lights too.  It will show green on the top (or bottom) and the middle globe will have a countdown starting at something between 5 and 19 seconds and at a count of 2 to 4 it will turn yellow and the number will disappear.  (The ones I've seen count down to the red at zero but some count down to so zero is when the yellow turns on)

The yellow count down timers have been shown to decrease red light camera revenue to close to zero.  They are showing up in more and more SE Asian traffic lights as well as in China and they seem to work.
Our local traffic department found a survey that say the pedestrian count downs don't work but they used a bunch of university kids as subjects and not elderly people so their stats are all bogus.

My traffic department also sent a very nice letter full of lies to my local elected official saying the same thing about the yellows being only 2 to 4 seconds long.  While the yellow is only a few seconds, the controller may know how long the yellow will be long before it switches.  In complex intersections, you may have a secondary light that turns red but has to give enough time for the cars with greens to clear a second intersection and that green can have a count down that could be 12 or more seconds.  Complex intersections are also the ones that have the most accidents with people running the red lights.  They are also are the places were more frustrated drivers are willing to break the rules.

/Also can anyone name a company that makes cameras that can be used as drop in replacements for the current loop sensors used to trigger the signals?  I'm hunting for ones that can detect emergency lights as well but I've had no luck.
 
2013-02-11 07:19:28 PM  

wambu: A second new violation in Rockville is the rolling right turn, or when a driver doesn't come to a complete stop before turning right on red.

Are there any statistics that show that rolling-rights-on-red kill people?


I am sure there are, most of which are probably people speeding around corners and not paying attention to what they are doing.

Here is an article from Montreal they had 5 deaths over 7 years, we can assume they were all rolling (probably a lot more than rolling, drunk etc):

http://spacing.ca/montreal/2010/08/19/no-right-on-red-was-a-good-cho ic e-for-montreal-mtq/
 
2013-02-11 07:21:30 PM  
The article stated that it caught every car going faster than 13 mph, and I think we have our solution.  When you see a yellow light, hit brakes and drop to 8 or 10 mph before continuing on through without notice by the cameras.  I am sure it will irritate more than a few folks who has to wait for you to clear the intersection, but no ticket for you.
 
2013-02-11 07:31:51 PM  

jmr61: I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

As to rolling stops and turns, FARKING STOP. It takes two seconds.

Been driving almost 40 years with one speeding ticket when I was about 20.

/And get off my lawn.


I haven't had a ticket in decades. My problem is that the cameras degrade the quality of life for all drivers, even safe drivers like me.

Dangerous drivers overcorrect at intersections or whenever they think they see a speed camera and now I have to deal with their over braking. Not only that but I'm always under a constant feeling of nervousness that what I think is safe driving might still trigger a camera.

If we were instantly ticketed for every infraction possible by a flawless computer, even the best driver in the US would rack up thousands in fines over a 100 mile trip. Traffic laws are not written with 100% enforcement of even the slightest infraction in mind.
 
2013-02-11 07:35:46 PM  

lack of warmth: The article stated that it caught every car going faster than 13 mph, and I think we have our solution.  When you see a yellow light, hit brakes and drop to 8 or 10 mph before continuing on through without notice by the cameras.  I am sure it will irritate more than a few folks who has to wait for you to clear the intersection, but no ticket for you.


Its a trap. At that speed you won't clear the intersection in time and they will bust you for the regular red light running instead of the slipped too far parts the white line infraction.

When the photo shows a red light and your car in the intersection, the judge who hates his life for being stuck in traffic court will side with the machine because it is easier to do that.
 
2013-02-11 07:35:49 PM  
Again, people, the woman in TFA was not doing a rolling, or California, stop. She blew that light. A rolling stop is when your speed is just barely over zero: "stopped" enough to satisfy all definitions of stop except the legal one. You can even argue that people slowing down to a couple of MPH for a second before resuming travel are close enough to stopped that they should receive a warning rather than a ticket. I don't agree, but you could argue it. This lady met absolutely no definition of "stopped".
 
2013-02-11 07:47:09 PM  
FTA:
"First, they capture drivers who are going more than 13 mph and stop with all four tires ahead of the white line, regardless of whether the driver backed up behind the line afterward.  "

Anyone who backs up on the road should be shot on sight.  The only exception is if they are backing into a parallel space or backing out of one of those roadside angled spaces.
 
2013-02-11 07:50:49 PM  

Warthog: I got one of these rolling right turn tickets in Delaware a couple months ago, at about 7:00 AM on a Sunday morning when there was zero traffic around.  But I viewed the video, said "yup, that's me," and paid the ticket.  Is it stupid?  Yes.  Is it technically illegal?  Yes.

the moral of this story?  Wilmington, Delaware blows donkey dick.


Don't get me wrong, I understand your frustration and it sucks that you got a ticket.  But for as long as I have been driving a rolling right turn has always been illegal, and that's been over 20 years now.  What I don't get is how many people think this is not the case.  If there had been a police officer standing there instead of the camera would it make a difference?

And while we're on that subject, would you pay increased taxes to support that police officer standing there?  Or would you rather have a camera which is much cheaper in the long run and doesn't increase taxes?  Or, as I feel, would you much rather have these stupid drivers obey the farking law and stop at the damn red light like they're farking supposed to?

/mostly rhetorical
 
2013-02-11 07:58:52 PM  

IRQ12: wambu: A second new violation in Rockville is the rolling right turn, or when a driver doesn't come to a complete stop before turning right on red.

Are there any statistics that show that rolling-rights-on-red kill people?

I am sure there are, most of which are probably people speeding around corners and not paying attention to what they are doing.

Here is an article from Montreal they had 5 deaths over 7 years, we can assume they were all rolling (probably a lot more than rolling, drunk etc):

http://spacing.ca/montreal/2010/08/19/no-right-on-red-was-a-good-cho ic e-for-montreal-mtq/


Well, that's my argument. The normal slow-speed rolling right on red is not some God-awful threat to public safety the camera-mongers make it out to be. I would be better with the damn cameras if the police and city leaders would just admit that they are all about the revenue and not some BS about safety. Not that they should manipulate light timing to increase violations or anything, but if people are stupid or careless  enough to egregiously violate the law, they deserve a ticket. A real ticket.
 
2013-02-11 08:53:34 PM  
These threads always amaze me with the number of posters who try to justify their breaking of traffic laws and poor driving.

My amazement aside, I was amused by this tidbit FTA: However, Rockville police say it's about protecting pedestrians, bicyclists and others who use the crosswalk.

I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out who else would be using the crosswalk besides pedestrians, and why are there cyclists there? (unless they are walking their bikes which was the rule where I grew up back in the days when we all had onions on our handlebars.)
 
2013-02-11 09:07:45 PM  

Kaenneth: doglover: Send them a picture of your money.

I read of someone who did that...

The police sent them a picture of a pair of handcuffs.

They paid the fine.


In most if not all places, Red Light Camera citations are a civil violation, not a criminal.  You're not going to get arrested for it.  Treat them like parking tickets.
 
2013-02-11 09:26:31 PM  
When I was taking traffic engineering classes in the late 80s, the concept that everyone would never exceed the speed limit was an engineers wet dream.  Victoria Australia used to have one of the highest compliance rates in the world with their 3% tolerance tickets.  The result of that little experiment was that the number of deaths stayed about the same yet the congestion went way up and the total km driven went down.  So their death rate per mile increased.  The cops had a strike (much like the one in Okla in the 80's) and when people thought they wouldn't get a ticket, they drove faster.  Road congestion eased a bit and the accident rate dropped.  The cops started issuing tickets again and the accident rate went back up.  The tight tolerance has been lifted a bit and the accident rate is once again dropping slowly.  The interesting thing is the accident rate should have dropped far more because more newer cars are on the road with more safety features but the expected drop from that hasn't been seen in nearly 5 years.   So maybe giving tickets out for 2 mph over the limit on highways isn't such a good idea.
 
2013-02-11 09:30:50 PM  

ShamanGator: I have no problems with this. As a pedestrian I've had to walk around MANY cars that were way too far into the intersection and when I look at them they either are playing on their phone or feign not understanding what the problem is.  Or they are that stupid.  FARK THEM.

I fully agree. The best look I ever got was the old lady trying to figure out why I walked over the hood of her car. Made more sense than walking into oncoming cars.


You sound like a self-righteous dick. Are you from Portland, perchance? Is it impossible to walk behind the vehicle? Have you ever heard of a concept called line-of-sight? The traffic engineers willfully disregard that concept here so drivers are forced to pull way up just to see the cross-traffic.
 
2013-02-11 11:25:59 PM  
sheep,

burn the cameras, oust the politicos who voted for them.

V
 
2013-02-12 12:44:21 AM  
As someone who has driven across the Mad Max expanse of suicide asphalt we call the Baltimore - DC area many times, I'm definitely OK with this.

FTA:
"It's not intentional. If the driver were being intentional, they would go completely through the intersection. They were trying to do the right thing, but misjudged when the light would turn red. And to slap them with a $75 ticket, that's patently unfair," says Townsend.

Bullshiat, I see this on a daily basis.  Those lines that are about 20' feet from a tight intersection?  Those are so cars, buses, and trucks can turn without turning your snowflake's SUV into giant wads of failure.  A light can sit red for 2 seconds or 45 seconds, and some asshat will inevitably cross the white line, the crosswalk, and nose into the cross street's right lane just to be the first 'off the line' when the light changes.  Welcome to Fark Maryland DC Ah, fark it.

Asshats get tickets?
img853.imageshack.us
 
2013-02-12 11:10:37 AM  

Krieghund: It has been many years since I took any psychology classes, but I think this would fall into the realm of operant conditioning (probably totally wrong here).  I think that is the one where you perform Vegan Meat Popsicle: Tricky Chicken: But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.

You have no reason to say that. You're comparing training animals to conform to a certain unknown norm to punishing humans for deviating from the norm they knew they were expected to conform to in the first place.

In fact, I think your idea of immediate reinforcement would be less effective overall. When people get hit with a speeding ticket, do you think they tend to actually slow down, or do you think they just learn to watch for a cop at that specific spot?

He has plenty of reason to say that. Operant conditioning is well established in human psychology. In fact, while I'm writing this, I'm listening to a therapist using it on my son, as part of a program that has been very effective.

I do, however, disagree with
Tricky Chicken: Red light and speed cameras are supposed to be around to 'train' us to obey the law through the use of punishment.

These laws were made by lawyers, not by trained psychologists. And they are effective in getting a subset of people to stop. I drove carefully when I was broke, because I couldn't afford a ticket. But that wasn't because of a behavior correction, it was because a cost benefit analysis said the cost was too high and the gain was too little.

And, as always, whether tickets are about revenue or behavior correction remains irrelevant. The law is what the law is. If you don't like it, change it.


I liked how he kept trying to credit me with coming up with the theory behind operant conditioning though.  Obviously I don't have a strong understanding of conditioning in general.
 
2013-02-12 11:30:28 AM  

Tricky Chicken: Krieghund: It has been many years since I took any psychology classes, but I think this would fall into the realm of operant conditioning (probably totally wrong here).  I think that is the one where you perform Vegan Meat Popsicle: Tricky Chicken: But as a training tool, punishment weeks after an infraction is much less effective than immediate punishment.

You have no reason to say that. You're comparing training animals to conform to a certain unknown norm to punishing humans for deviating from the norm they knew they were expected to conform to in the first place.

In fact, I think your idea of immediate reinforcement would be less effective overall. When people get hit with a speeding ticket, do you think they tend to actually slow down, or do you think they just learn to watch for a cop at that specific spot?

He has plenty of reason to say that. Operant conditioning is well established in human psychology. In fact, while I'm writing this, I'm listening to a therapist using it on my son, as part of a program that has been very effective.

I do, however, disagree with
Tricky Chicken: Red light and speed cameras are supposed to be around to 'train' us to obey the law through the use of punishment.

These laws were made by lawyers, not by trained psychologists. And they are effective in getting a subset of people to stop. I drove carefully when I was broke, because I couldn't afford a ticket. But that wasn't because of a behavior correction, it was because a cost benefit analysis said the cost was too high and the gain was too little.

And, as always, whether tickets are about revenue or behavior correction remains irrelevant. The law is what the law is. If you don't like it, change it.

I liked how he kept trying to credit me with coming up with the theory behind operant conditioning though.  Obviously I don't have a strong understanding of conditioning in general.


I'll give you a dollar if you can teach me the basics late this afternoon.
 
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